Talk:Clock (cryptography)

Grundstellung

"Instead of sending the message keys in the clear, the message keys would be encrypted with the Grundstellung (ground setting)." Is "ground setting" a useful translation of Grundstellung? KjellG (talk) 14:51, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

The transliteration is used in the literature:

• https://books.google.com/books?id=QnUPBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA216&lpg=PA216&dq=enigma "ground setting"&source=bl&hl=en&sa=X&q=enigma "ground setting"&f=false
• https://books.google.com/books?id=uccLlgJDk4gC&pg=PA97&lpg=PA97&dq=enigma "ground setting"&source=bl&hl=en&sa=X&q=enigma "ground setting"&f=false

Glrx (talk) 03:33, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

It is known that Grundstellung is translated to "ground setting" in some cases, but is it useful? If one google "Ground setting", you get few answers, and mostly related to signal reference to groung in electronics. "Ground setting" does not seem to be a common expresion in english. In most cases ground setting seems to be related to Enigma and articles on WP. In German language "Grund" in this context has no connection to "ground". My best understanding of Grundstellung translated to english is "initial key" or "initial setting". Looking here: [1] all suggested translations are ok, but "ground setting" is missing. German Grundstellung is also related to foot drill, soldier standing at Attention, Er liegt nicht auf'm Grund. In this context with Enigma, Grundstellung is the setting set from the codebook. Before the war, the Grundstellung was set e few times per year. During the WWll it was mainly set per day and used to encrypt the session key. Dayly key, master key, initial key, super key all seem more useful than Ground setting imo. and I suggest a change. KjellG (talk) 14:09, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

The article is only interested in the context of Enigma, so it does not care about grounding in electronics or any other applications of the term. The Germans used Grundstellung as a technical term. Several German technical terms about Enigma are used in English descriptions of the machine. For example, "stecker" is often used when describing the plugboard settings. Ringstellung and Grundstellung are also used. Supplying the weak transliterations of "ring setting" and "ground setting" convey a bit of their meaning (albeit a bit inaccurately in the latter). Using the German terms and their transliterations is a practice that is used in the literature about Enigma; it is not something WP editors started or invented. The best translation is your "initial setting". The Grundstellung is not the "initial key", the "daily key", the "master key", the "initial key", or the "super key". The Grundstellung is just the initial position of the rings: the letters (or numbers) shown in the window of the Enigma machine. A daily key includes more than the Grundstellung, and later the Grundstellung was not even a part of the daily key. An Engima message had only one key, so there is no "master key" or "super key"; those terms suggest the Enigma system had two or more possible keys. Even "initial key" has the problem that it does not include other components of the key such as the steckers, ring settings, and wheel order. The Grundstellung is just the initial/starting position of the rings, and it is just the intitial/starting position used to decode the rings' starting position for the message body. Glrx (talk) 16:48, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

OK, seeing my error here, thank you for reverting. (One should never rely on ones memory). I have no problem with Ringstellung/ring setting, Steckerbrett/plugboard, but I do not see any use for Grundstellung/ground setting. Grundstellung beeing the initial setting of the rotors, sendt in clear and used once to encrypt the session key. Does "ground setting" give a better understanding for an englishspeaking person than Grundstellung? Any suggestions for a better translation? "Start setting", "initial setting"? Regards KjellG (talk) 18:48, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

I believe the use of Grundstellung and "ground setting" is as reasonable as using Ringstellung and "ring setting". The words are used as technical terms, so there is a precise meaning. The mis-transliteration allows the German and English words to be used interchangeably. When I see "ground setting", then I know it means Grundstellung. The words "initial setting" do not have the same precision: there are many initial settings -- settings that are used to initialize the machine; the Ringstellung could be viewed as an initial setting even though it does not change throughout the decryption; similarly, the plugboard setting may be considered an "initial setting" of the machine. The Grundstellung / ground setting is just the initial position of the rings as viewed through the window; it does not include any other settings. I'm harping on that point because your edit illogically said that the Grundstellung consisted of the ring settings, some other components, and (circularly) the Grundstellung. That does not make sense.

You are also making conclusions based on how some Enigmas were used at a particular time. The Grundstellung was not always sent in the clear. In the early 1930s, the Grundstellung was a shared secret. The Kriegsmarine enciphered the Grundstellung throughout the war. Furthermore, the initial setting of the rings is not a "key"; it is only a component of a "key". See Enigma machine#Details.

Glrx (talk) 19:34, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

"on a net"

Is that a turn of phrase, or is that in reference to a network of some sort? I can't access the citation and there is no other mention of a net. I didn't realize the "confusing" tag would be so big and obnoxious, I'll remove it. --Skintigh (talk) 19:09, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

You're right: in this context, it is "network". The Polish "sieć" is rendered into English as either "net" or "network". The early translator of Rejewski's paper should have used "network" for unequivocal clarity.

Nihil novi (talk) 00:45, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

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