Talk:Cliff Wilson

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External links modified

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I have just modified one external link on Cliff Wilson. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060319231454/http://www.globalsnookercentre.co.uk/files/Players/Global_Europe/Global_Welsh/wales_cliff_wilson.htm to http://www.globalsnookercentre.co.uk/files/Players/Global_Europe/Global_Welsh/wales_cliff_wilson.htm

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Crucible Record

I've removed "although he played in the World Championship at the Crucible Theatre on eight occasions, he never progressed beyond the first round – a record he shares with Rex Williams." from the article as I couldn't find a reliable source. If you can, please restore it to the article. Thanks, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:43, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Cliff Wilson/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Lee Vilenski (talk · contribs) 11:08, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Hello, I am planning on reviewing this article for GA Status, over the next couple of days. Thank you for nominating the article for GA status. I hope I will learn some new information, and that my feedback is helpful.

If nominators or editors could refrain from updating the particular section that I am updating until it is complete, I would appreciate it to remove a edit conflict. Please address concerns in the section that has been completed above (If I've raised concerns up to references, feel free to comment on things like the lede.)

I generally provide an overview of things I read through the article on a first glance. Then do a thorough sweep of the article after the feedback is addressed. After this, I will present the pass/failure. I will use strikethrough tags when concerns are met. Even if something is obvious why my concern is met, please leave a message as courtesy.

Best of luck! you can also use the {{done}} tag to state when something is addressed. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)}

Please let me know after the review is done, if you were happy with the review! Obviously this is regarding the article's quality, however, I want to be happy and civil to all, so let me know if I have done a good job, regardless of the article's outcome.

Immediate Failures

• It is a long way from meeting any one of the six good article criteria -
• It contains copyright infringements -
• It has, or needs, cleanup banners that are unquestionably still valid. These include{{cleanup}}, {{POV}}, {{unreferenced}} or large numbers of {{citation needed}}, {{clarify}}, or similar tags. (See also {{QF-tags}}). -
• It is not stable due to edit warring on the page. -

Links

• Rest of sources are fine, but there is one to Daily Mirror. Mirror is WP:MREL, so it's probably ok. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:59, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

 Done Changed to a Harrow Observer source BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:00, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

• You don't need to put via British Newspaper Archive if you don't provide a link. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 14:09, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

 Done Removed these as they aren't useful without the url. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:00, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Prose

Lede

• Lede could do with an expansion
• The lede should be reordered. This should be in terms of what is most important; rather than a chronological look. I'd mention he reached a height of 16th in the world rankings, won the 1978 World Amateur Championship then 1991 World Seniors Championship and then into him not playing between those years
• He was a successful junior player, known for his fast attacking snooker, and attracted large crowds for matches with fellow Tredegar player Ray Reardon. - should probably mention that he is from Tredegar and mention this is exhabition matches.
• I think it is important to mention he died as a professional player. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 14:05, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
  • Re-written and expanded. No doubt it can be further improved. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:29, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

General

• British Junior (Under-19) - under-19, unless it was the name of the comp
  • Morrison (1989) has "British Isles Junior Championships" with separate columns for Under-16 and Under-19. Everton (1979) has "British Boys Championship" and "British Junior Championship" whereas Everton (1985) has "British Junior (under 16) Championships and British Junior (under 19 Championships. Newspaper reports have various formulations including "British Youths' Snooker Championship" (for the Under-19s). I think under-19 is the best bet, as there is no consistency across sources. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:17, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
• The following year, now a steelworker, Wilson beat Gary Owen 3–2 in the final to take the British Junior title - probably needs a reword to say in the same competiton the following year, he won, defeating Gary Owen 3-2 in the final.
  • Reworded - I kept the steelworker part but happy to rework (or omit that) if it will be better. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:17, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
• In the final he faced Own again - sp
  •  Done BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:17, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
• Commenting on Wilson's style, the Belfast Telegraph s - any ideas who?
  • checked, and there is no author or agency credited. See reply to the next point BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:17, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
• Commenting on Wilson's style, the Belfast Telegraph said he "scorned safety play" in winning his semi-final against Donald Scott 2–0 in twelve minutes - I assume this means he decided not to play safety shots? Maybe a reword is needed.
  • I've replaced this with another source that uses less vague language, and reworded. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:17, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
• In 1953, a Sports Argus match report described Wilson as having "lived up to his reputation as the finest potter in the country, one ball being hardly in the pocket before the next one was following it in." - this quote probably needs more around it, comment on his speed etc.

I've moved this to the last para of professional career as it seems to fit more there - that paragraph is meant to provide some views on his fast attacking style, not only as a professional, so I'm not sure if it needs to be a separate section. I added a different quote, from Everton. More may need to be done with these I suppose. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:34, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

• He played Reardon in both the Welsh and English Amateur Championships, and in a succession of money matches. Snooker historian Clive Everton has described Wilson as an "even more remarkable talent" than Reardon, and in 1979 described their contests, when each would attract hundreds of supporting spectators as "modern snooker's nearest equivalent to a bare knuckle prize fight." Everton goes on to suggest that when Reardon moved away, "the edge went from Wilson's game." - direct quotes should be followed by a citation - I realise you have them, but you should put it directly after. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 14:20, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
  •  Done Also reworded, so please provide any further feedback. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:17, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
• The above probably needs added context that Reardon won the world title six times. Otherwise, it's just saying this person was better than someone else. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 14:20, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
  •  Done BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:17, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
• He played Reardon in both the Welsh and English Amateur Championships-what year?

Removed this. Everton (2012) says they "clashed each year" in both, but I think there is some poetic licence there. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:34, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

• e 1973–74 Home International series, losing 1–2 against D. Lenehan of Ireland and beating W. McKerron - no full names?

Not able to get full names from a reliable source. Can either keep as is or reword to something like "lost one match and won the other" BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:34, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

• Joe Grech 5–4 - you've linked all of this.
  •  Done D'oh! BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:17, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
• Wilson built a 4–0 lead in front of a 4,000 strong audience that started to deliberately distract him, - you'll need to be a bit careful here, who said this?

added "according to Everton" - Quote: "Wilson, 4-0 up against Grech, began to be systematically distracted with meticulously timed coughs, bangs, clatters and the lighting of cigarettes" and, about the final frame: "virtually the whole crowd on its feet baying to distract him." (Black Farce & Cue Ball Wizards, p.371) BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:18, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

• e lost 5–8 in the southern area final of the English Amateur Championship to Jimmy White after leading 4–2, with the 16-year-old White becoming the Championship's youngest ever finalist - this isn't an article about White.

Edited - Is it OK now? BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:18, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

• Wilson turned professional in 1979 - is this because he won the Amateur championship?

I think these were still the days when anyone could apply and the WPBSA would decide on whether to accept them. He didn't apply immediately. Morrison (1988) says "Cliff regained his Welsh crown in 1979 and shortly afterwards decided to try his hand at the professional game." If I had to speculate, I'd guess that missing out on the B&H Masters money might have influenced him. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:17, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

• At his debut - In his debut
  •  Done BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:17, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
• He broke into the top sixteen of the world rankings for one season, 1988/89, ranked 16th, at the age of 55 - just say he was ranked 16th.
  •  Done BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:17, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
• I'd mention because of this, he did play in the Masters, which is cool
  •  Done BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:34, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
• The last para in professional has some publications. Please link, and if possible add who wrote it.

Amended, is it OK now? BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:34, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

GA Review

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Comments

• Automated note - If you fancy returning the favour, I have outstanding GA and FA nominations that require reviewing at WP:GAN and WP:FAC, respectively. I'd be very grateful if you were to complete one of these, however it's definitely not mandatory. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)}

Never come across this player before, but someone who took their best years out, and played when a lot older professionally is very interesting! Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:55, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Lee Vilenski Many thanks for your review, all very constructive. I've made quite a few changes, let me know what else needs to be done. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:29, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 13:37, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that after giving up snooker from 1957 to 1972, Cliff Wilson won the World Amateur Championship in 1978? Source: Black Ball Farce and Cue Ball Wizards
  • ALT1:... that Cliff Wilson won his first professional snooker title at the age of 57? "Obituary: Cliff Wilson". The Times. London. 24 May 1994. p. 10 (Quote: "Wilson, one of the oldest competitors in the field at 57..") / "First for Wilson". The Times (London). 23 September 1991. p. 37 (Quote: "his first professional title.")

• Reviewed: Ashley Freiberg

Improved to Good Article status by BennyOnTheLoose (talk). Self-nominated at 20:40, 25 May 2020 (UTC).

• I'll review this with my snooker fan hat on. Hassocks5489 (Floreat Hova!) 20:14, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

• Rated as a Good Article on 23rd May and nominated two days later.
• Both the article creator and the GA reviewer are specialists in the field of snooker articles, and I am happy with the breadth of coverage and the reliability of sources used.
• I have read the article in some detail and compared the text with the sources, and there is no close paraphrasing, copyvio etc.; and all significant aspects of Cliff's career have been covered in a suitable way. Wording is neutral throughout, with suitable use of attributed quotes.
• The Independent obituary notes that he reached a world ranking of #14 in 1988/89, contrary to what the article states (#16 in that season), but I have reviewed several other sources and I am happy that his year-end ranking was indeed #16 (I assume that he briefly reached #14 mid-season; rankings tend to change a lot during the course of a season).
• Both hooks are fine to use: accurate, short enough and interesting. I would say the ALT1 is more interesting overall to the casual reader.

An enjoyable read. I dimly remember watching his victory over a very young Ronnie O'Sullivan in 1992. Good to go with either hook, with a preference for ALT1. Hassocks5489 (Floreat Hova!) 23:13, 28 May 2020 (UTC)