Talk:Carmelites

Unsectioned comment

"The original rule of the order was now changed"...Was now changed? That doesn't sound right to me. What's this trying to say?24.131.12.228 23:39, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Saint Louis

The last sentence in the Origin and Early History section reads:

"During his rule of twenty years the order prospered, especially by the establishment of a monastery at Paris by Saint Louis in 1259."

Problem is, there are at least seven Catholic Saints named Saint Louis (possibly more), only two of which are listed on the Saint Louis disambiguation page. (I haven't looked to see if any more Sain Louis articles exist in Wikipedia.)

Any idea which Saint Louis is being referenced in this article?

From a cursory perusal of the available material, King Louis IX of France, monarch and saint, seems the most likely candidate, certainly given that the time frame of his reign fits with the date of 1259, and the location in Paris.

But I'm not 100% sure, so I haven't linked him to this article.

Anyone with more expertise in this area able to clarify?

Thanks, Kevyn 22:22, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

é?

Is it Carmelites or Carmélites, as in Dialogues des Carmélites the opera by Francis Poulenc and Georges Bernanos? Hyacinth 23:39, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Carmélites is the French form of the word, while in Spanish and Portuguese it is Carmelitas. However, the standard form in English is Carmelites.

The English form Carmelites has no written accent on the first e and ends in -es, instead of -as.

— Diamantina 02:43, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

Separation

A separation probably should be made between Discalced Carmelites (OCD)and the Carmelites of the Ancient Order (OCarm). They are considered separate orders and though I wouldn't say they dislike each other, there is still an intense rivalry between them at times. Williamb 12:50, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Scapular

Since there are already articles on the Scapular in general and the Scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel (the Carmelite brown scapular) in particular, I think that the section on the scapular in this article should be cut, with suitable passages added to the two scapular articles. What do you think?

— Diamantina 07:40, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I shortened it, and I removed stuff which rather belongs into a religous pamphlet and not into an encyclopedia. -- Prorokini (talk) 11:48, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

POV

It's very informative, but this article has much in the way of POV. Statements made from the point of view of a member of ther order, all in "will" format rather than "claimed to" or any of those.

'evidence' of origin

There is evidence of Mt. Carmel hermits from soon after Exodus to the Carmelites: it is in Mandaean Nasurai (Nazar: see Nazarean, i.e. Nazarite) texts. These record a community at Mt. Carmel. Nazar are/were Jewish[-Christians]. Yeshua is said to have lived in Nazareth, which there is no evidence of but it is near Mt. Carmel, but he is/was also said to be a Nazarean at least in prophecy, and moreover Paul was accused of being a 'ringleader in the sect of Nazareans' before Orthodoxy ever defined them heretics. Nazarean, most Orthodox/Catholic monastic, particularly Orthodox, Carmelite and derived orders are essentially similar. As the last post said, this article has a POV and in the light of research from ancient to present (even last century) times it should be changed.--Dchmelik (talk) 09:05, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Self-flagellation

Why no mention of self-flagellation? This is considered interesting enough for the Carmelites use of a cattail whip made of light chains with small spikes or hooks to be referred to specifically on the Wikipedia flagellation page.

A quick search on Google brings up loads of links.

Mapryan 07:06, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

As no-one has replied, I've updated the page with a cross-reference to the appropriate section of the flaggelation page

Mapryan 21:45, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Not a satisfactory solution, as it turns out. The cross-reference is to a section within the flagellation article that may be very specific, but has not a single supporting citation. It would be good to verify this properly, as Da Vinci Code fever put a spotlight on religious self-flagellation. Maybe some of those Google hits lead to scholarly sources you could add? Cynwolfe (talk) 21:57, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

I removed the reference to self-flagellation in the article, which utterly does not belong there, the person who added it is perhaps an enthusiast of this practice. This kind of severe physical penance is decidedly is NOT a practice typical of the Carmelites today, though historically it was common or even universal to use "the discipline" though not necessarily in the form described by Mapryan. The reasons for this change in practice have a great deal to do with evolutions in Carmelite spiritual theology particularly through the influence of St. Therese of Lisieux. I know this with certainty because of personal friendships with members of the Discalced Carmelite Order as well as extensive reading in Carmelite spirituality. --Elizdelphi (talk) 06:12, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Elizdelphi. History2007 (talk) 09:55, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

There's plenty of examples of this as anyone can find with a quick search on Google, with St. Therese of Lisieux listed as quite a firm believer in it. Whether or not it's still practise today, it was considered a fundamental part of one of the key member's of the order to at least merit a mention. http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=TOjxgFs8UhIC&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=carmelites flagellation&source=bl&ots=JW-ydqhVOW&sig=aPxE8Zq1-trcVBXG-bTCDqib8gE&hl=en&ei=0qNMSpnbBIXMjAfV79i4BQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3 Also, Elizdelphi, I have never in my life practised self-flagellation despite the assertion of your comment Mapryan 13:16, 02 Jult 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was: not moved. A redirect from Order of the Brothers of Our Lady of Mount Carmel has been created. Station1 (talk) 19:00, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

---

Carmelites → Order of the Brothers of Our Lady of Mount Carmel — The name "Carmelites" should be only a redirect. In the Carmelite Rule this religious order have the formal name "Order of...", as it happens in another religious orders (eg. Order of Saint Benedict). 84.90.92.195 (talk) 19:42, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose/Keep Most people know them as Carmelites. History2007 (talk) 19:45, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

But also the Discalced friars and nuns, the Byzantines, and another derivations of this religious order are "Carmelites". The article of the main order should be renamed to "Order of the Brothers of Our Lady of Mount Carmel" because it is the correct denomination. 84.90.92.195 (talk) 20:00, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Let us wait for Elizdelphi. She has good ideas on this, most likely. History2007 (talk) 20:23, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose This is an argument for a subarticle, or a dab page, not for renaming this article. Complexities should be explained in articles, not required in order to find them. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:30, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose - they are most commonly referred to as Carmelites - Wikipedia doesn't entitle articles by the "official name", but by the most frequently used name. The others can be distinguished as suggested by Septentrionalis.HeartofaDog (talk) 13:01, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

• Neutral - Note that many other orders are not named "Order of..." in Wiki. eg Dominican Order, Franciscan, Augustinians. The Jesuits do get redirected to Society of Jesus however. My point is that there is no consistant usage of the "official" name (ie "Order of Preachers" etc). Jubilee♫clipman 17:11, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose Our article titles are optimized for lay readers, not for specialists; this is a textbook example of excessive precision, resulting in a long and clumsy title. Flamarande (talk) 08:02, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Fasting for 6 months of the year

Under the Charism and origin heading, when describing the rules of the order, vows of poverty, silence and abstinence from meat are mentioned. Also "fasting from Holy Cross Day (September 14) until the Easter of the following year." Is this in error? It seems unlikely that an order would require its members to fast for half of the year. Mostfolkscallmeerick (talk) 18:04, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

The term "fast" in this case dosn't mean the complete abstenance from food and drink. Rather, it refers to a reduction of caloric intake. The size of meals and eating between those meals is currtailed, however. There are few times when complete abstention from food or drink are called for.

Suggestions for Article...

I came here for more info about the Carmelites. I don't think this article clearly identifies Carmelite beliefs. Many beliefs are addressed, but seem to assume intimate knowledge about the organization of the Catholic church. Specifically, how do they differ from Jesuits and Franciscans? What beliefs and practices do they have? Which of these separate them from "mainstream Catholicism"?

Images

Why are nearly all of the images those of Carmelite nuns (2nd order), and not of the Friars of the First Order? There is a separate article on the nuns. Seems a serious imbalance. Vicedomino (talk) 06:46, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

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Founder

English source says founder was Elijah the Prophet (https://archive.org/details/lingeringslight00whitgoog/page/n204/mode/)Manabimasu (talk) 07:43, 8 April 2021 (UTC)