Talk:Bad Dürrenberg burial

changing reference template

I would like to add some new info and references to this page, but I can't for the life of me figure out how this reference template works. Would anyone mind if I switched it to the standard referencing system, that allows the use of the automatic reference generator you see when you click the Cite button? It's a short article, and I don't see why that system would be a problem. Right now it's very difficult to add information. Thanks. Ninafundisha (talk) 12:59, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

@Ninafundisha: Shortened footnotes is the current format simply through personal preference! No qualms about changing it tbh. I fell into using sfn through WP Ancient Egypt and I'm used to the Harvard style from uni. If you'd like you can find out more about it at its template page : )

I too have more information that I am intending to add to the page but it is currently waiting in my sandbox for inspiration to strike to organise it lol so feel free to have a look. Otherwise, go forth Merytat3n (talk) Merytat3n (talk) 03:39, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Bad Dürrenberg burial/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Merytat3n (talk · contribs) 05:17, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Caeciliusinhorto (talk · contribs) 20:56, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Marking my place for this – looks interesting! Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 20:56, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Okay, initial comments: I've read through the article a couple of times, and it looks basically good. The prose is fundamentally fine – the prose suggestions below are mostly not strictly necessary for GA status. The two images which are used are both appropriately licensed. There's no evidence of instability.

• It's unfortunate not to have a photograph: given that the burial is in the Halle State Museum of Prehistory, is there any chance of getting one? If you aren't nearby yourself, I'd be tempted to at least stick {{image requested}} on the talkpage in the hopes that someone else might take one.

Done! Great suggestion : D Merytat3n (talk) 05:09, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• neuropathological conditions, such as abnormal sensations, ataxia, or induced rapid eye movement (nystagmus) or double vision as someone without any neuropathological expertise, this confuses me. Do we have any more detail about what sort of abnormal sensations? What is ataxia? (is there at least an article to link?) The structure suggests that "induced rapid eye movement (nystagmus)" is synonymous with double vision, but the articles on nystagmus and double vision suggests that this is in fact two unrelated conditions.

I've specified the kinds of sensations and tried to make the wording clearer Merytat3n (talk) 01:07, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• so it is generally unclear exactly how the bodies and grave goods were arranged: it's not wrong per se, but "generally" is superfluous here so I would tend towards cutting it. You might also consider wikilinking grave goods

I agree. Done Merytat3n (talk) 05:09, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• Re-excavation of the site in the 2010s found the burial was recovered utilising only the trench cut and that no larger hole was made. A few things here: 1. "utilising" can almost always be replaced by the more common and easily understood "using" with no loss of meaning 2. "the burial was recovered using only the trench cut" sounds almost tautological. I would suggest being explicit that this means "using only the trench cut for the water pipe". 3. "and that no larger hole was made" seems superfluous to me.

Much clearer now, thanks! Merytat3n (talk) 05:09, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• ochre is linked in the lead but not on first use in the body; I would link there too

Oopsie missed that. Done Merytat3n (talk) 05:09, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• Her face has broad cheekbones and masculine features: "masculine features" is so culturally constructed that I don't love it as a description here.

I changed it to "robust" which I'm not sure is much better. In the 1930s the shaman was identified as a man solely from her skull. Following Grünberg, I assume masculine is meant in the biological anthropology sense, in that bones are rated as masculine/feminine meaning more robust (larger, thicker, bigger muscle attachments, stronger features e.g. chin, brow ridges) or more gracile (smaller, thinner, less muscle attachment, rounder chin and facial features). Regardless using the skull alone is not a very reliable way to determine sex, if I recall my single bioanth paper from 10 years ago! Merytat3n (talk) 01:07, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• This is her suggested cause of death. This reads awkwardly to me. If this is a general consensus then "This is believed to be the cause of her death"; if not then "X has suggested that this was the cause of her death".

Attributed. Porr and Alt seem to be the only ones who suggest a cause of death. Merytat3n (talk) 01:07, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• atlas vertebra ... foramen magnum: I know that vertebrae are in the spine, and I would assume from context (I think wrongly, following the link!) that the foramen magnum is also a bone, but it might be worth glossing these so readers don't have to follow the link to work out what is going on here: e.g. "atlas (the highest vertebra in the neck) ... foramen magnum (the hole at the base of the skull)". (Do correct my anatomy here if I've misunderstood what these are!)

Good suggestion, glossed! Merytat3n (talk) 01:07, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• was previously suggested to be caused: this is unidiomatic to me. Suggest: "Hans Grimm suggested that the atypical formation of the foramen magnum was caused ..."

Reworded Merytat3n (talk) 01:07, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• 600 years after her death: given that there's a 200-year margin on the date of her death, how precise can we be about the date of these antlers?

I can't unfortunately. Curry (2023) is the only one who mentions it, in English anyway. The best I can do is follow them in saying "around 8400 years ago" so that's ~6400 BC. It's possible that Meller and Michel's Das Rätsel der Schamanin might be more specific but I don't have a copy (yet) or read German (Google translate). Merytat3n (talk) 01:07, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I will do spot-checks against the sources for copyright and verifiability issues next, but unless I turn up something deeply concerning this looks to be well on its way to GA. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 21:19, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Okay, did some source spotchecking, and have one query:

• In the 2010s, the area where the burial was found was scheduled for redevelopment for the State Garden Show so the grave was located and entirely removed in two blocks for controlled excavation in a laboratory. Unless I'm missing something, I don't think the cited source explicitly supports "in the 2010s"; it says that the State Garden Show was "originally scheduled to open in 2022" so the excavation was presumably before then, but I can't see any more precise indication of date.

I checked several other statements, looking at all of the cited sources, and didn't find any other concerns about either copyvio or source-text integrity. Nor does earwig's copyvio detector come up with anything concerning.

Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 19:52, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

That is entirely my fault! I should also be citing Curry (2023) who says "Some 80 years after the initial [1934] discovery" and "As part of the new archaeological project that started with the reexcavation of the grave in 2019" so I will fix that. Thank you : ) Merytat3n (talk) 21:37, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

No worries – all looks good now. I'm going to pass this – congratulations! Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 16:49, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 talk 23:50, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that the Bad Dürrenberg shaman may have been able to block blood vessels to her brain by holding her head at certain angles?

• Source: Orschiedt et al. (2023) "The Shaman and the Infant: The Mesolithic Double Burial from Bad Dürrenberg, Germany" p.128 "This vertebra also shows an anomaly, which is limited to the vertebral process in the form of a protruding bone clasp. This makes a blockage of one of the blood vessels leading to the brain plausible. This can be caused intentionally by adopting a certain head posture."

• ALT1: ... that the Bad Dürrenberg shaman may have been able to induce ataxia or nystagmus by holding her head at certain angles? Source: Porr & Alt (2006) "The burial of Bad Dürrenberg, Central Germany: osteopathology and osteoarchaeology of a Late Mesolithic shaman's grave" p.398 "Tyrrell & Benedix (2004: 58) mention ‘ataxia of the limbs’ as ‘the most common modern clinical presentation ofcraniovertebral anomalies’...The latter might have affected all forms of perception, resulting in nystagmus (involuntary rapid, jerky eye movement) or diplopy (seeing double)." Orschiedt et al. (2023) "The Shaman and the Infant: The Mesolithic Double Burial from Bad Dürrenberg, Germany" p.128 "This can be caused intentionally by adopting a certain head posture...However, it is conceivable that a nystagmus, i. e., an involuntary movement of the eyeballs, could be caused by the blockage of a blood vessel."
• Reviewed:

Improved to Good Article status by Merytat3n (talk). Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has less than 5 past nominations.

Merytat3n (talk) 23:58, 5 June 2024 (UTC).

• Article is long enough and recently given GA status. It is presentable, well-sourced, and neutral. Earwig looks fine. The hooks are both cited and interesting. QPQ is not required. gobonobo ^c 18:11, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Re: remembrance

Around 6400 BC, approximately 600 years after her death, a pair of antler headdresses were buried 3 ft (0.91 m) from her grave, suggesting she was remembered and revered centuries later

That's pretty remarkable. How certain are they about this interpretation? Viriditas (talk) 00:06, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Hard to say. My understanding is that the suggestion is based on the proximity to the shaman's grave. Quite a wide area was excavated and sampled ahead of the state garden show and no other Mesolithic finds were made (Middle Age pits were dug in the area but they didn't reach the Meso/Neolithic finds). Yet, the antlers were found very close to the grave. Harald Meller suggests her grave must have been marked with a small mound or an upright post set into the ground. He thinks the antlers were left by later shamans who called on her for help during the climate shifts of the 8.2-kiloyear event.(info from Curry 2023 and The Bad Dürrenberg shaman: at the site by the State Museum for Prehistory Halle's Youtube channel) Merytat3n (talk) 21:57, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. Is this an unusual interpretation, or rather, an unusual find? I ask because I can't recall anything like this before. To put it another way, is there any other site like the Bad Dürrenberg burial, that is remotely similar, where it was suggested that a person was also "remembered and revered" for long periods of time? Viriditas (talk) 22:15, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

The interpretation is valid and logical given the available evidence. The shaman was clearly a significant individual so its not surprising she was remembered by her community for so long, probably passed down through oral history. In terms of an individual/a site being remembered for a long time, it is not so unusual but I don't know enough about Mesolithic Europe to say in that context. Revering (long) deceased individuals wasn't uncommon in human history. Ancestor worship is/was pretty widely practiced. In ancient Egypt, Amenhotep I was worshiped for at least 500 years at Deir el-Medina and Khufu had an active mortuary priesthood 2000 years after his death. There's evidence in Australia that a ritual practice continued for 12,000 years in the same cave. So, the shaman of Bad Dürrenberg is special but shes not necessarily unique ^_^ Merytat3n (talk) 10:48, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the comparative references. I will ruminate on this for a bit and may have some followup questions later. Viriditas (talk) 22:21, 7 July 2024 (UTC)