This category is currently a caos of images which aren't necessarily heraldic. Should the category be strictly limited to heraldic figures on shields or do we want to sort it in a different way? And if we decide either way do we need to change the name of the category?
Also the category is a subcategory to Category:Elements of Coat of arms which contains another subcategory Category:SVG coat of arms elements which contains the type of images (which are in SVG) that are in Category:Heraldic figures but which aren't on shields. /Lokal_Profil17:57, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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"Red Indian" is archaic to the point of insulting. It's a term like "Negro", or worse. "Indian" itself is acceptable to many, even embraced by some (such as the American Indian Movement, but we usually use "Native American", which is more broadly accepted.
Most of these are tipis and should be recategorized as such
As far as I can tell, those (two, I believe) that are not tipis are not actually tents; they are probably hogans or some such, and should be placed in some more appropriately named category, which may need to be created.
At first i have to tell that my englisch is not very well so if you think that the names of the categories are not good please cange it. I made these categories with an old translation book and i have no problem if you make it better. I was very surprised how many pictures are now in the category tents and its sub categories. Thanks for your help --Ronaldino06:55, 1 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds like category creator has no problem with the move & removal. I'll do the moves, but the removal has to be done by an administrator. - Jmabel | talk03:42, 2 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Should they be kept as redirects or outright deleted? I prefer to keep redirect if there is a chance someone might try and recreate them if they don't exist. --pfctdayelise (????) 04:42, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Given the miscapitalization in the old name, there seems to me to be almost no chance of recreation. Ditto for the next one. - Jmabel | talk19:08, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Done (BTW - if a category is empty, putting a tag on it like {{speedy|empty, badly named - correct name is Foo}} usually gets it deleted pretty quickly.) --pfctdayelise (????) 02:30, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Sounds like category creator has no problem with the removal. I can't do this, it has to be done by an administrator. - Jmabel | talk03:42, 2 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think both categories should be kept. The plural category should be for specific languages. And the singular category for things that are related to language, but are not languages or related to a specific language. /90.229.135.23915:40, 2 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Juiced Lemon, what is it that you oppose? Merging them, or using the plural form or the existence of any of the categories?
90.229.135.239, if that is indeed how the two categories are meant to be used then explanatory texts and perhaps a renaming to something clarifying this would be good. But from that point of view I can see why two categories would be needed. /Lokal_Profil16:29, 2 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I changed from “oppose” to “keep” for clarity. You didn't properly explain your intentions, so it was difficult to criticize them. I think that User:90.229.135.239 comments are pertinent. --Juiced lemon17:37, 2 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think we need to keep this distinction. The concept of a language in general (Language, singular) is different to details about any specific language (subcat under Languages, plural). 'Language' is very abstract whereas 'Languages' content will be much more specific, but the fact that they're both filled -- with distinct contents -- seems to show that other people make this same distinction. --pfctdayelise (说什么?) 04:41, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Categories should be in English unless there are special circumstances. I've got no clue on how to translate this though. /Lokal_Profil15:49, 1 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
English capitalisation remains one of the great mysteries to me. To learn from further previous misstakes lets let this last suggestion lie here for a while before we create it and if no one corrects-comments we'll create that category instead and {{Bad name}} the previous one./Lokal_Profil23:51, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(unindent) In English "Category:Maps of Roman Catholic dioceses of Poland" can sound like they are official state churches of Poland. As in "the official church of Poland." I prefer "Category:Maps of Roman Catholic dioceses in Poland".
The British monarch (at present, Elizabeth II), has the constitutional title of "Supreme Governor of the Church of England"; the Canons of the Church of England state, "We acknowledge that the Queen’s excellent Majesty, acting according to the laws of the realm, is the highest power under God in this kingdom, and has supreme authority over all persons in all causes, as well ecclesiastical as civil".
The Church of England has a legislative body, the General Synod. Measures of Synod have to be approved but cannot be amended by the UK Parliament before receiving the Royal Assent and becoming part of the law of England. The church has its own judicial branch, known as the Ecclesiastical courts, which likewise form a part of the UK court system, and have powers especially in relation to the care of churches and churchyards and the discipline of the clergy.
So since there are official churches of countries it is important to use clearer English concerning Polish church categories. --Timeshifter23:55, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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The circles categories are a bit of a mess at the moment. What I cannot fathom is what purpose the category circle is serving that isn't served by either circles or circles (geometry). Therefore I propose
I don't really have strong feelings regarding such a category. I think it might make plain circles easier to find, but it's not a must-have. --Rimshot13:11, 4 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Generally sounds fine, I can see it would be good to have a category to put all those coloured rings in (simple svg circles of different colours) but I don't think 'plain circles' is quite right. Maybe also a category "Concentric rings" to match the page Concentric rings.
I will not have serious objections against a category for plain or simple circle-illustrations, but I wonder if it would not be better to leave them in/move them to category:circles, and make them easy accesible via a gallerypage. I started making one, plain circles, but decided to wait with the rest until it's decided whether there should be a separate category for them (in which case there would be no need for a gallery... ;-) Finn Rindahl18:30, 4 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
2. An extra name between parenthesis is usally for disambiguation, but there is nothing to disambiguate
3. This category contains geometrical figures and, in my opinion, “to show a circle” is not a pertinent feature in order to properly categorize geometric figures. --Juiced lemon19:32, 4 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As for 1.: you're right of course, but I really wanted to fix circle first. 2. Well, yes there is. Anything with a circular form can be in the category circles, for example something like this. An image like this, on the other hand is about the geometric properties of a circle - it's therefore rightfully in the category Circles (geometry). Of course there is no need to separate these, but it is a natural way, I think, of diffusing the category. 3. That might be something to argue about, but I think in the example I gave it is quite a pertinent feature that this image contains a circle. --Rimshot21:37, 4 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I've summarized the positions so far, you may vote here if you wish. I hope this gets the discussion a bit organized. For the other issues, it might be best to start under a new heading. --Rimshot12:59, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
SupportGallery. If plain circles are what you are looking for, you should be given an easy way to find them. After some thinking I prefer a gallery, because it can group the circles by colour/structure/anything. I cannot think of a better name, but go ahead if you know one.--Rimshot12:59, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I missed this summary before. I believe we should go through with the three suggestions above, and I'm willing to take responsibility for expanding that gallerypage I started. I'm not going to vote, however, since I belive this is a matter that could (and should) be resolved by consent, and not by voting. If there were two distinctly different alternatives voting might be "the last way out", I don't believe that's the case here :-) Finn Rindahl12:24, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, there is no kind of process yet for CFDs on commons. I thought a "vote" might be a good way to make the different points of view clearer. --Rimshot13:48, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Having had another look I find I now see the point of having a category:plain circles as well, they're now easy available in the gallery (thank you rimshot!) and are just confusing category:circles... Sorry for speaking against this initially :-( Finn Rindahl22:30, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Started: I've moved the subcategories and pages, and placed a category redirect. A number of images still need to be moved. --rimshottalk12:38, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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You can't change just those two categories since they are part of the Category:Soccer-tree. Either they are all socer or they are all something else. Since Category:Football is a supercategory for both American football, soccer and other "football sports" the only other alternative to soccer would be association football. As far as I understood that had even less support then soccer so therefore Category:Soccer it is. /Lokal_Profil01:33, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with JeremyA however. Soccer is not a word used in England or any other part of the world except in the United States. The correct term is "Football in England". If you want to talk about American football, then a category could be named "American football in England". I have problems changing every category to "Soccer something" simply because that is the American term, however not the term used in Britain. Gryffindor22:17, 6 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If you take a look at Category:Football you'll see that football can be any of 6 sports. The alternative to "soccer" would be "association football" so I'd say soccer is the lesser of two evils. /Lokal_Profil00:01, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Objection: Soccer is an American English term that is not used in Britain or in France or Germany. I don't think there is a disambiguation clash, since "Football something X" in the European frame clearly refers to "Soccer" and not anything else. Gryffindor22:19, 6 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Currently, Category:Soccer (and its substructure) is for association football. I personally disagree with the use of this American English term. But, I disagree also with the infraction to the Universality principle (see Commons:Naming categories). So, if you want to maintain your position, open a discussion about the renaming of Category:Soccer. --Juiced lemon22:30, 6 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think we can all agree that Category:football should be a topcategory for all types of football (there are more than two) anything else would lead to World War 3. So then the choice is "Association football" or "soccer", I believe that more people (non-american and american) would recoignise soccer then association football. Anyhow as long as the top category is soccer the subcategories should be called the same thing, the same thing goes for the "American football" subcategories. /Lokal_Profil23:58, 6 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
How about we leave all categories concerning (Association) football in the United States under the term "Soccer X" such as "Soccer venues in the United States", and the rest of the world with "Football X"? In the English Wikipedia they came up with a solution "Football (Soccer)". Maybe not the best solution but at least it's still a compromise. I think the overarching category Category:Football can remain as it is, since it concerns all forms. "Association Football" is not a good idea IMO because let's face it nobody uses that term in the general sense. Gryffindor14:57, 8 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well we agree to let the category "Football" alone. Now we have to find a proper name instead of "Soccer" in that case. So I think we should just cut the gordian knot and have it as "Football (Soccer)" since that has been chewed over in the English Wikipedia more than enough and that's what the consensus was over there. Gryffindor22:33, 8 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I understand the need to change from "soccer" to "football" for the non-U.S. countries, but to change "football" to "American football" for the United States is similarly wrong. Just like the rest of the world doesn't call it soccer, we in the states don't call it American football - it's just football. In the case of college football, where the reference is clearly most common to the system involving American football, a notice can be placed similar to the one on the category at the English Wikipedia. It may not be the prettiest category structure, but it's currently downright wrong. --Fuzzy51022:57, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The heading of this discussion might currently be slightly missleading. We're no longer talking about changing soccer to football, it's about changing all the subcategories of Soccer with football in their name and similar for the subcategories of American football. Additionally there is also a discussion about an alternative naming of the Soccer category-tree (but not just football). /Lokal_Profil13:05, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We have two options: either have "American Football" and "Association Football", or leave "Football" for both American and European categories, which is potentially confusing though. Gryffindor16:30, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It was a joke. Unless we state a new definition, different than the one in the English Wikipedia, football is the name given to a number of different team sports, including American football.
According to the The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language
, the etymology of soccer is: From alteration of assoc., abbreviation of association football. “Soccer” is a specific term of the American language, which is not popular in an international context. So, I think that Category:Soccer is unsuitable in Wikimedia Commons.
In my opinion, we have 3 main alternatives for the renaming of this category:
Category:Football, because Association football is a very popular game, so the word “association” is commonly ommitted, like in Manchester United F.C.. The current contents would be moved to Category:Football games or Category:Football sports
Assuming that we apply the Universality principle (see Commons:Naming categories#Principles), the name of the parent category X will be used “as is” to build subcategory names, like “Category:X in England”.
This poll aim to choose a name to refer to “association football” (see football (soccer)) in any category of the topics structure in Wikimedia Commons.
D. Football and contents of current category moved to Category:Fooball games
E. Football and contents of current category moved to Category:Fooball sports
A valid vote is an ordered list of different alternatives (at least one alternative), amongst the alternatives which will be listed on September, 1st, 0:00 am. Examples of valid votes:
A
A,B,C,D
There will be a votes count for each couple of alternatives. (A,B) is the number of times A is preferred to B.
vote A means (A,B)= 1, (A,C)= 1 (A,D)= 1 (assuming there are 4 alternatives)
vote A,B,C,D means (A,B)= 1, (A,C)= 1, (A,D)= 1, (B,C)= 1, (B,D)= 1, (C,D)= 1 (assuming there are 4 alternatives)
This count will determine which alternative(s) is (are) preferred to all other ones. We will possibly decide between the remaining alternatives with a points count (1st place=1 point, 2nd place=2 points...): the alternative with the lowest total will be choosed.
--Juiced lemon10:11, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think that alternative D should probably be crossed out for the sake of peace. Since the name can in fact mean a whole family of sports (and is currently the category for this family) or any of the sports therin depending on in which country one is. All the other three names would however be unique for the sport in question. /Lokal_Profil16:04, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
All the alternatives, except one, will be crossed out after the votes count. Anybody can add his own alternative, and the bad ones will be censored by the voters. --Juiced lemon18:52, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Although I might have a preference I don't care which of the names the category tree goes under the main thing is that we pick one and stick with it because the current structure isn't sustainable. Currently the main category is called Soccer but within it are lots of subcategories starting with Football, to add to this confusion Soprani has now added the category Football (soccer) and is slowly migrating subcategories Soccer to this name. Similarly within American football there are lots of subcategories starting with Football.
Now when I tried to request renaming of subcategories to the current (at that point) standard (i.e. Soccer and American football) that was stopped. Similarly after an new attempt to make the structure uniform (now under the name Association football) that was also stopped. So rather then just stopping the structuring come with useful advice on how you think the situation might best be resolved because if nothing is done this category tree is going to become even more caotic. /Lokal_Profil22:41, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I second that. Something must be done and this vote, however few people took part in it, is all that we have at the moment. I think that most people do not have a very strong opinion on the name of the categories, as long as the categories are consistently named. If Siebrand isn't going to add them to User:CommonsDelinker/commands, where can we find an admin who will? --rimshottalk17:11, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I was about to process the requests until I saw the massive amount of "soccer this" and "soccer that" categories that need to be moved. To me, they tell of a consensus far greater than what was the result of this voting.
There should be a real vote, in which over 20 people would participate, that is announced properly, to decide which name is best. The above listed vote included only 5 voters, and for now there is no solution accepted. Migdejong17:37, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I would've voted E, D, C, but I must admit I do not understand the voting process completely. Should we have a new vote, perhaps accounting for the votes previously added? Migdejong18:48, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You don't give grounds to that. If anybody could block any decision for specious reasons, that would lead to a terrible mess, since nobody will care to take part in votings which would be ineffective. --Juiced lemon19:36, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, as you can see above, the results were not accepted, due to the fact only 6 voters showed up. If you have more voters you can finally fix this issue. Migdejong19:43, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Most decisions are taken and have been taken without any poll. In some cases, the decision is made by a single user, when nobody has opposed. Organize a poll is not mandatory, that is just an easy way to collect opinions from other users who have not taken part in the discussion. There is no rule stating that a minimal participation is requested to valid the result of the poll (this is not an election), and such rule would be currently a nonsense.
This vote has been accepted, but the decision is not yet fully implemented. A new vote will not change anything to this situation. More, you cannot guess neither the future number of voters, nor the “requested” (by whom?) number.
Well I'll just have to start another poll then. You seem very dedicated to a poll that is not accepted by anyone, due to low numbers. Remeber there are no rules, whatsoever, for anything. But to change 200 cats, there needs to be some acceptible compromise or a clear vote. Apparently 6 voters are not enough. 20 should be. Migdejong20:56, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Who have told you this poll is not accepted by anyone? The only person who refused to implement the result of the voting? Six voters for only 200 categories is an exceptionnaly high ratio. We have already changed several thousands of categories as a result of a single decision, without poll, with 2 users again a third one. This poll is perfectly valid and its result is lawful. A new poll about the same subject would be very questionable. --Juiced lemon21:44, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Is there any reason at all that this isn't Category:Historical markers? I notice that there is exactly one item in the latter, which is not hooked into the category tree, but it's the one that follows our naming rules. Can we just get a bot on this? - Jmabel | talk19:27, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have some additional requests for cat renames based on this request. If this is a clear reason for the capitalisation that is currently used, please explain why. Siebrand07:00, 18 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Rename Category:Canada National Historic Sites to Category:National historic sites of Canada (0 entries moved, 0 to go) Warning: Please add a reason. Warning: Username of requester missing (user parameter). For transparency and to prevent abuse, please add your username. Canada National Historic Sites;National historic sites of Canada;r;
Rename Category:Historic Sites Schleswig-Holstein to Category:History of Schleswig-Holstein (428 entries moved, 0 to go) Warning: Please add a reason. Warning: Username of requester missing (user parameter). For transparency and to prevent abuse, please add your username. Historic Sites Schleswig-Holstein;History of Schleswig-Holstein;r;
3. Category:National historic sites of the United States (designations by National Register of Historic Places, Federal government of the United States)
National Historic Sites is a proper noun, at least in the US. I can't speak for other countries. So I'd leave it capitalized. Lar: t/c12:42, 18 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
2 of my proposals are grounded on the spelling of List of national historic sites of Canada. A proper name usually point to an unique entity. Plural for proper names is odd, in my opinion. In the other hand, you can still have plural in a proper name, like National Register of Historic Places, but it is an unique organization. --Juiced lemon15:12, 18 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The first three will be moved now. Please rephrase what you like done to the fourth. I'm not sure I understand. Cheers! Siebrand07:27, 19 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion, State Historic Sites of the United States is a wrong category name, because you can interpret it as a category for historical sites registered by a state institution. I didn't find such state institutions. Since this category is an erroneous concept, it's useless to rename it unless we can find an appropriate subject.
Ah, OK, I understand. Done. Cheers! P.s. please take a look at the cats to be renamed in the topic at the bottom of this page. Siebrand10:34, 19 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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All the map categories in both Category:Maps and Category:Maps by theme are geographically based. I checked them all. Non-geographically-based maps have been removed. They are linked from a note at the top of Category:Maps. It says
Since Category:Maps by theme is just more geographically-based map categories it is very confusing. And why did you do this. History maps are a common geographically-based map subcategory. See w:Category:Maps of Egypt for example. It has a history map subcategory.
See also w:Category:Maps of the Middle East. It has a history map subcategory. See also w:Category:Maps. It also has a history map subcategory. So at all levels history maps are an integral top-level subcategory.
I categorize a lot of maps. Please note the subcategory system at w:Category:Maps. It does not have a "Maps by theme" category. It just puts all the themes (topics) at the top level, and then subdivides from there. It makes a lot more intuitive sense. --Timeshifter16:58, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry I was a bit uclear. Obviously all of the maps in the category are geographical maps. What I meant was that the main subdivision is by geographical subdivision i.e. Maps by continent, Maps by cities, etc. The by theme maps are different in that they present mor then mere geographical information.
Also not that the en.wiki maps category also doesen't have Maps by cartographer, Maps by century made, Maps by century shown, Maps by language, etc. /Lokal_Profil17:33, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Please see w:Geography. Geography covers much more than borders, boundaries, and topography. All the topics covered by Category:Maps by theme are also geographical categories. Follow w:Category:Geography down the subcategory tree, and see the vast territory covered by the name "geography".
For example; history maps are oftentimes just old mappings of borders and cities. They would come under your more narrow categorization for geographical maps. But some of the history maps have battles marked, etc.. So how does one categorize history maps, then? At the top level Category:Maps, or by the history theme? How do we categorize Maps by century made, Maps by century shown, etc.. Those are also on the history theme.
They are currently categorized under Category:Maps. See the problem? If geography was a narrow category with a narrow definition, then I would agree with you concerning the need for Category:Maps by theme. But it just adds another confusing layer.
(Unindent) OK. I can see some benefits from having a "Maps by theme" category. As long as people know to look for it. I edited the introduction of Category:Maps. Here is part of the current introduction:
This category's subcategories are for geographically-based maps. The top level categories are for basic geography maps of countries, cities, continents, regions, seas, etc..
See the subcategory Category:Maps by theme for many additional, geographically-based maps covering history, archaeology, economics, politics, military, battles, flags, linguistics, sports, religion, population, ethnography, geology, geographic features, bio-geography, fisheries, disease, topography, protected areas, site plans, transport, bridges, communications, celestial maps, time zones, weather, music, etc.. See also the Atlas index. Atlases are organized and commented collections of geographical, political and historical maps. See also: Category:Satellite pictures.
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User:Juiced lemon keeps removing Category:SVG maps from being a subcategory of Category:Maps. He also keeps removing the SVG map subcategories from the relevant map categories for nations, continents, regions, etc..
What's the reason for doing that?? I find it very helpful to be able to find SVG maps via the category system. But OK, I might have missed something - I'm new around here, so I'm willing to listen&learn ;-) Finn Rindahl16:30, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(Unindent). I think that is his reasoning, but I am not sure. Commons:Categories#Category structure does not prevent an SVG map category from being categorized both by media type and topic. It says "All categories (except CommonsRoot) should be contained in at least one other category,"
Please also see w:Wikipedia:Categorization#Categories do not form a tree. It says "each category can appear in more than one parent category." It says "it may be convenient to think of parts of the category graph as being like multiple overlapping trees."
In my opinion Juiced Lemon should have the courtesy to leave the categorization in place while it is being discussed. Since he is currently in the minority. It seems that this lack of courtesy is a habit. Juiced Lemon has been mentioned unfavorably many times at Commons:Administrators' noticeboard/User problems. --Timeshifter08:13, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
“Divided” involves that you may not interconnect these substructures as you want. When you look at the talk page, you see that access to the Topics substructure is preferred. There are some reasons to that:
1. This substructure is the most useful to Commons readers
2. Every media file would be found in this only substructure.
Therefore, easy browsing in the Topics structure is an essentiel element of the success of Commons project. That means that the reader must easily understand the Topics organization, then find the way to reach the wanted media files.
That's why the categories of the Topics substructure have to be cleared of most interconnections between the 6 substructures. When a category contains several subcategories, you can logically expect to find different media files in each subcategory. That would not be true, if we allow interconnections. Any file in Category:SVG maps of Mexico is already far better categorized in Category:Maps of Mexico: Category:SVG maps of Mexico is a wrong track. More, media files are mainly selected according to their overall quality, not according the only criterion “to be a SVG file”.
I believe that an SVG map category tree is beneficial to the project. I did not create the SVG map category tree. But it seem that the project is encouraging SVG images. Category:SVG maps was started in January 2006. See the history:
Interconnections between category trees is normal and encouraged. Why did you remove Category:SVG maps from being a subcategory of Category:Maps? How else do you expect people to find these SVG maps?
You have a fundamental misunderstanding about categorization. Strict hierarchies do not work, because topics are interconnected.
Each Wikipedia article can appear in more than one category, and each category can appear in more than one parent category. Multiple categorization schemes co-exist simultaneously. In other words, categories do not form a strict hierarchy or w:tree structure, but a more general w:directed acyclic graph (or close to it; see below).
Nevertheless, parts of the category graph will be tree-like, and it may be convenient to think of parts of the category graph as being like multiple overlapping trees. When applying the guidelines above, consider each tree to be independent of the overlapping trees. A person browsing through a hierarchy should find every article that belongs in that hierarchy. This can lead to a good deal of debate as to what the hierarchies actually are. To clarify the structure of the hierarchy and help people browse through it, you can add a classification to each category. For more about this, see w:Wikipedia:Classification. [End of quote]
A key point is "A person browsing through a hierarchy should find every article that belongs in that hierarchy." That means interconnections are essential. That means that the SVG maps category tree, Category:SVG maps, for example, needs to be interconnected with the map category tree, Category:Maps. --Timeshifter09:48, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You have a very personal manner to interpret other users' interventions. You are currently the only user who questionned the removal of SVG categories from the Topics substructure. --Juiced lemon11:49, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(unindent) Category:SVG maps is a map category and an SVG category. You seem to be the only person who does not want SVG maps categorized in map categories.
3 people have questioned your removal of it from map categories.
My "questioning" above was indeed just that, asking a question hoping that the answer would give me some understanding of the matter being discussed. I (hope I) now have a better understanding... Since I've just started drawing new maps using inkscape, I find the SVG maps categories very helpful as a place to find sources to copy from. For these purposes SVG maps as subcategories under topic categories would be helpful. I think, however, that for most users searching for illustrations and such, "mediatype" and "Copyright stats" (or for that matter "user") as subcategories of the topic catoegories will only be confusing. I'm starting to get to know my way around here, so for me it is not a problem to browse from top category Category:SVG maps down to a certain geographical area, and then do a cross check in the main category for that area to see whether there are better .png, .gif etc maps. So, to summarise: I believe that there should be topical substructures in mediatypes, but not mediatype subcats to topics. I.e. SVG maps and sub to SVG files ( and maybeCategory:Maps at this top level), then Category:SVG maps of Europe as sub to SVG maps but not to category:Maps of Europe and so on. I concider the Topical categories our "main" categories, the catsystem that makes our mediafiles available for the public. The other categories are only there to help us (active commons user) organize tha content. A file only categorised as "copyright:GFDL" or "type:SVG" or "source:Flickr" is in practical terms uncategorized. Finn Rindahl12:16, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Then that means all the SVG maps will have to be individually categorized under their topics. It would be a lot easier just to make Category:SVG maps of Mexico a subcategory of Category:Maps of Mexico. I will go and categorize the individual SVG images in that category now to show you what I mean. So ALL the individual SVG images will be categorized in both Category:SVG maps of Mexico and Category:Maps of Mexico. This seems like such a waste of valuable time. But it is important that the average reader is able to find all the maps of Mexico. Even if the categorization scheme is illogical and wastes everybody's time just to make one person, User:Juiced lemon happy in his unique categorization scheme which is different from all other wikipedia map categorization schemes. Because interconnecting category trees is allowed everywhere except in the mind of User:Juiced lemon. --Timeshifter12:37, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The question for me is not was is "allowed" or not, but what is most practical for the average user. I may have been unclear above: I agree with Juiced Lemon that Category:SVG maps of Mexico should not be a subcategory of Category:Maps of Mexico and so on. Further, to both Timeshifter and JL, assume good faith and keep in mind that we're discussing in order to find the best solution. :-) Finn Rindahl12:51, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I assume good faith on both your parts. I just don't think either of you are thinking clearly about the issues. I have started checking all the individual images in Category:SVG maps of Mexico to see that they are all categorized under Category:Maps of Mexico or one of its subcategories. Because it is important that the average reader is easily able to find all the maps of Mexico. --Timeshifter12:59, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Finn Rindahl. You wrote: "what is most practical for the average user." Is it not most practical for the reader if the reader can go directly to the SVG map category? Is not the most important element of an SVG map the fact that it is a map? Many objects can be categorized under multiple topics. So categorization can not be strictly hierarchal for those objects. Those objects are normally categorized in those multiple topics. It is common throughout wikipedia and the commons. I checked all the Mexico SVG maps. They were nearly all already categorized in multiple categories. Including separate SVG map and Mexico map cateogories. So why do we categorize the individual maps in multiple categories but not Category:SVG maps of Mexico? It is illogical, and goes against the existing categorization rules as I have quoted several times already. The existing commons rules override the peculiar categorization schemes of Juiced lemon. --Timeshifter21:05, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It seems that User:Jeff G. may agree with me. See this diff:
There seems to be a number of mis-conceptions involved in this discussion, so I will make some points.
This is not wikipedia, categories have a very specific use here which is different from the way they're used on wikipedia.
As described by User:Juiced lemon the category structure is a number of inter-twined but independent trees starting at the same root. ie the branches weave through each other but a branch on one tree doesn't suddenly get grafted onto another tree.
The category structure is very definitely a hierarchical tree (well 6 trees as described above). Loops and nailing branches of different trees together destroys the structure and makes tools like catscan useless.
SVG is a 'media type', not a 'topic', so however strange it might seem it is on a different tree. The appropriate linking would be some sort of 'see also' link, not grafting branches of one tree onto another.
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Commons Wikimedia is not hypertext encyclopedia, but a vault for data storage. So, use of category pages is incidental in the Wikipedia projects, but essential in the Commons project. Therefore, we are not required to copy our Topics substructure from other encyclopedia projects.
In particular, we have to provide clear and clean structures in order to allow easy browsing. They are thousands regions or areas on the Earth, and we cannot build understanding and manageable structures without scheme.
As I said already on your user talk page we should use the existing categorization methods. The methods used at BOTH wikimedia commons and wikipedia. You are the one trying to propose a radically different categorization scheme. The Middle East crosses over 2 continents, Asia and Africa. So it will not fit in YOUR proposed categorization scheme. But it fits fine in the existing commons categorization scheme.
Commons:Categories#Category structure does not prevent interconnections between categories. It says "All categories (except CommonsRoot) should be contained in at least one other category."
Juiced lemon is removing satellite picture subcategories from overall satellite picture categories. He uses the edit summary "pictures are not drawings". Juiced lemon is oftentimes illogical in his categorization. He has been mentioned unfavorably many times at Commons:Administrators' noticeboard/User problems. He ignores much of what people say to him. He ignores my replies to his points here.
I believe Juiced lemon is also wrong to remove satellite pictures from being subcategories of maps. It depends on how one defines maps. Many atlases include satellite pictures. Oftentimes satellite pictures have lines drawn in for the borders. Mapmakers want easy access to the satellite photos in order to add borders, cities, labels, etc.. And in any case the satellite pictures show topographical features. Topographical maps are considered maps. And finally, people looking for maps often want to see satellite maps/photos. For the topographic elements. I do. I believe that much of the whole problem with Juiced lemon is that he doesn't look at map categorization from the point of view of the average reader. --Timeshifter20:49, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Since satellite pictures are not considered maps by some people I will remove them from map categories. I can link to them instead as a related category. --Timeshifter17:21, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Some bot filled up this section with hundreds of maps of villages in US states, primarily Michigan, Ohio, NM, Missouri. I discovered it while looking for some generic village images. I moved some singletons over to where they belong, but it will take another bot to fix this. There are proper cats for:
I'll do something with category.py tidy. For this I'll have to add some cats to Category:Villages by country first, to get the choices. Please give me some time. Placement in this category is done by CommonSense. Unfortunately this does not always work exactly right :) Siebrand16:59, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Darn. The bot does not work... I have asked a developer to take a closer look at it. I have reverted the temporary changes I had made to some categories. Siebrand17:26, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Is there any intelligible distinction between Category:Musical genres and Category:Musical groups by genre? If so, could someone clarify in text on the respective category pages and look to see if the subcategories make consistent sense? Thanks.
In theory Musical groups by genre could be a subcategory of Musical genres (and musical groups) but that requires that we have some content that belongs to Musical genres but not musical groups by genre. I don't know what that content would be. Samulili08:16, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
All images of sheet music, for one ;) . Musical instruments sometimes are associated with a certain genre. There are loads of sound samples of certain styles of music, these belong to a genre, not to a musical group. So, Category:Musical groups by genre should be a subcategory of Musical genres. As for images directly in Category:Musical groups by genre: in a dream world everyone would categorize their uploads in a meaningful way, but unfortunately, it isn't so. --rimshottalk09:51, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It should be obvious that when one is categorizing musical groups by genre, the genre is a musical one. Therefore there is no reason to repeat the word. Samulili19:19, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There are 2 reasons to do so:
1. Each artistic domain can have its own genres, like musical genres or literary genres: we don't save anything to confuse them.
I have to say I agree with Samulili here. As for your reasons: I don't quite understand 1., I am afraid. Are you saying that it's problematic that there is a musical as well as a literary style Baroque? I don't see how that can be a problem. And your second reason: if someone doesn't understand "genre", he won't understand "musical genre" either. If someone doesn't understand "musical group", the whole point is moot, as he will never even have arrived at the category "Category:Musical groups" and therefore will never need to find out what "Musical groups by genre" is about. I cannot think of a scenario where adding redundant information will help in any way. --rimshottalk09:57, 17 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
To repeat what I said above: you know that they don't belong there, I know, and Juiced lemon knows. The people who put them there don't know, unfortunately. I guess your (repeated) remark about that made it seem like you weren't so sure either that they really don't belong there. I have added a few words to Category:Musical groups by genre, to make it clearer to others as well. --rimshottalk09:32, 17 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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When I get home later today I want to start a renaming/harmonisation of categories "Location maps ..." to "Locator maps of ... in ...". I have the commands ready on User:Siebrand/test. Please double check for any typos and/or inconsistencies. Cheers! Siebrand07:11, 17 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
About six months ago, I opened a discussion at the village pump about the standard form for locator maps. The result (as I remember it) was:
Locator maps of [WHAT TO LOCATE] [PREPOSITION] [WHERE TO LOCATE]
PREPOSITION is determined according to custom rules:
when [WHAT TO LOCATE] is a settlement (city, village, etc.), PREPOSITION=in
In for settlements and of for administrative areas, is that the general idea? I support that but where do you draw the line? Samulili11:31, 17 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Even though it may not look 100% correct, I am in favour of a convention that uses the same words in all forms. Especially to newcomers and occasional visitors, the subtle differences are annoying, even if there is a logic to it. Any thoughts? Siebrand14:20, 17 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't draw any line. Settlements and subdivisions (areas) are assumed to have specific common names. Then, the name of the Commons categories are determined according to this common name (which points a settlement or a subdivision). In Commons, some users have mixed lowest level administrative areas with settlements. I didn't take care of that, though I disapprove, at least because there were too few discussions and explanations about this operation. --Juiced lemon15:01, 17 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, I see. I guess I'll have to agree. I'll rename as stated above and ask when in doubt. Thanks for the input.. Cheers! Siebrand15:25, 17 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have updated the list of commands on User:Siebrand/test and the commands are running now. It is going to run unattended in the coming hours. Please let me know if I screwed up somewhere and I'll correct. Cheers! Siebrand16:24, 17 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
OK, will do. Would you take a look at the topic Category:Historical Markers a little higher up this page and voice opinion? Cheers! Siebrand09:19, 18 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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At User:Siebrand/test I have prepared 125 category moves from Locator maps for ... to Locator maps of ..., but as you may have figured, I am still at a loss on of vs. in as the second preposition. Please correct the list and let me know when it is done. I'll start the moves then. Thanks for the help. Cheers! P.s. I have things in a spreadsheet, so if many things need changing, let me know here, so I can fix the sources. That will save me time preparing the commands for the bot. Siebrand15:10, 18 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Do not move the categories between WAIT and /WAIT, due to incorrect naming or categorization which cannot be solved quickly. --Juiced lemon19:47, 19 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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This category is intended to contain logos and other material directly related to Wikisource (like other categories foe Wikimedia projects). But it does also contain files that are used by Wikisource, like scanned text and images from books and audio recordings of books. I don't think such media is really related to Wikisource, and should be categorised by what it is instead of where it is mostly used. /Ö20:33, 19 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Flanders is an historic region, which overlaps Belgium, France, and the Netherlands. The category is currently used for both the Flemish Region and the Flemish Community.
The categorizations of the historic region, the region of Belgium, and the linguistic community are obviously very different.
recover Category:Flanders for media files which are related to the historic region
individualize the different subjects for better understanding, to establish correct interwiki links with Wikipedia articles, and approprate categorization
name each category according to the correct names of these subjects (references: English Wikipedia and this official page).
Flanders as a historic region used to be a countship coinciding with the current provinces West-Vlaanderen and Oost-Vlaanderen, later it used to overlap parts of Belgium, France and the Netherlands. This no longer so. Currently Flanders (see this official site) is the part of Belgium, consisting of the 5 Flemish provinces. In the Netherlands the erstwhile overlap is now called Zeeuws-Vlaanderen, in France: la Flandre française (French Flanders) (which is not the same as Vlaanderen). I strongly oppose the move. Lycaon18:36, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In reply to the person who gave me a civility warning for this comment, "Stupid Flanders" is a Homer Simpson quote. I thought it would be funny (if off-topic). It has nothing to do with Flemish people of today. -Nard19:17, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
A lesson for all of us that pop-cultural references originating in North American Anglophone culture will not always be recognised in ou multicultural and multilingual milieu! I didn't recognise the original reference, but your explanation gave me a chortle. Thanks all! Man vyi19:24, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Just put an Brit and an American thogether: there already you have a completely different sense of humor. Let alone when switching to "real" different languages. --Foroa20:51, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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I attempted sort the content to subcategories. Changes that I made was especially this: the separation of schemes of route signs to the subcategory Diagrams of route signs of the United States (and its subcategory Diagrams of route signs of the United States by state). This way is necessary to accosiation U. S. route signs in the common worldwide uponcategory Category:Route signs with route signs of non-american countries. Do take note, that the worldwide category Traffic signs is two years since redirected to Category:Road signs, meaning all of types of traffic signs. Maybe a misunderstanding have a linguistic base.
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Well, my dictionary gives lightning as non-countable mass noun. That means that there is no plural. This coincides with my personal feeling that "lightnings" is not a proper English word. If you insist on a plural form, try "lightning flashes". Where did you get the information that lightnings is a proper form? --rimshottalk09:55, 25 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The American Heritage® Dictionary gives a plural form with s ending. However, I agree that “lightnings”, “lightning flashes” and “flashes of lightning” match the same subject. I have no preference between these three names. So, choose the most used one. --Juiced lemon10:33, 25 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Is lightnings an American thing, then? Lightning is often given as an example of an uncountable noun.[1][2]Wiktionary gives "lightnings" as archaic plural, so maybe that's what it is. Finally, the word "lightnings" on the page you linked is a verb form, not a noun. --rimshottalk12:42, 25 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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User:Jeff G. refused to revert his move, arguing that “Record label” was an American English expression. He still added companies and audio equipment subcategories to Category:Audio by brand.
My first concern is to restore a category matching the initial subject (brands for audio records). This category could be Category:Record labels, or an alternative name. I am trying to find a consensus about the destination category.
First of all, I agree that Category:Audio by brand is not a very good name for a category. Besides not fitting with the conventions, it also is not very clear what the category is about. If we need a different category structure then, could we first try to find out what it is we need to categorize?
Record companies, the most common name for which is record label. Record label refers to the brand rather than the company, but that shouldn't make much of a difference. We might try to find a less ambiguous name than Category:Record labels for that.
Record labels, that is, the labels that are on records. These should reside in Category:Gramophone records. If there is a category for a certain record company, then the images should also be in the category for that particular company, of course. I don't think we need a separate category tree "recordings belonging to a certain record company", as these images are very few indeed.
Audio companies, that means companies that produce any kind of audio equipment. These could go in a category like enWP's Audio equipment manufacturers.
Commons:Naming categories#Categories by CRITERION is not "our conventions", it's your dream. My concept of this category covers the following (which maybe can get get their own subcategories at some point, given enough images, time for categorization, and time for copyright expiration):
audio equipment/hardware by brand (such as Sharp and Aiwa stereos, Apple iPods, guitars, amps, drums, cymbals, mikes, violins, clarinets, flutes, Category:Gramophone Company record players, radios, tape players, and CD players)
audio records by brand (blank and pre-recorded (where Category:Record labels and Category:Gramophone Company would fit), such as entire records, just their labels, their dustjackets, and their inserts)
reel-to-reel audio tape by brand (blank (such as 3M and BASF) and pre-recorded)
audio cassettes by brand (8-track tape, standard, mini, micro, etc. (blank (such as 3M, Maxell, Radio Shack, TDK, and Memorex) and pre-recorded (such as Columbia Records)))
audio CDs by brand (blank (including CD-R and CD-RW, such as 3M and TDK) and pre-recorded (such as Columbia Records))
digital audio content by brand (such as Apple iTunes and Napster)
music producers by brand (what Category:Record labels generally means in the US, such as Columbia Records, Virgin Records, and Edison Records)
music sales outlets by brand (such as HMV, Target, Sam Ash, CD World, Radio Shack, and traditional record stores)
So what's the point of dumping them all in one lot? And where's the borderline between 'audio equipment' and 'electronic parts', 'audio outlets' and 'supermarkets' (for those non-US territories where 'traditional record stores' completely succumbed to competition)? My vote for keeping hardware makers, retailers and producers apart. NVO (talk) 20:08, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I see no problem with having an "audio by brand" category, but certainly we should also have a category "recording companies" or "record labels". - Jmabel ! talk00:23, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Because the former was created first (by the same user, who has also created other apparent duplicate categories) and has more entries, perhaps? I think the choice is rather arbitrary, but we should avoid redundancy. —LX (talk, contribs)19:29, 27 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have spent a lot of time to undo some of this user's edits. What is the purpose of Category:Round?
I think some users confuse categories with keywords. Categories are software features for browsing, and have to be cautiously used. --Juiced lemon20:52, 27 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Good point. I suppose it's not the most meaningful name for a category. If either of the categories in question are kept, they should be used judiciously. Category:Circles would probably be a better category in most cases. "Round" isn't really well-defined geometrically or in any other way. —LX (talk, contribs)21:08, 27 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The purpose of this thread is to discuss the deletion of Category:Round forms, so don't say I stray from the issue, when you are doing so. In any case, if you wish, we may discuss other issues here as well. I think that an image like this belongs rather to Category:Round than to Category:Circles. As I said, if we keep to the point we have a higher chance in finishing this particular discussion. If you want to discuss the merit of Category:Round or Category:Shapes, please start a new discussion. --rimshottalk12:00, 28 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
A category is not needed in order to tag a picture. Another user explained in the village pump that you can add any tag with a template, like {{keyword}}. Then, you can search media files with the catscan tools, and select the templates you want or don't want.
Accumulation of category links doesn't help to browse through the database. I think that these links have to be limited, in order to allow the reader to understand the scheme of Commons category structures. --Juiced lemon11:00, 28 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Could you point me to that discussion? A quick search hasn't given me much information about this template. As Man vyi said, though, how am I to find pictures of round things? We can expect (most) users to know about categories, can we expect them to know about the CatScan tool? --rimshottalk12:00, 28 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
He was possibly refering to my suggestion tagged onto the end of this discussion (look for the paragragh Well, there is a solution™.) or other similar previous or subsequent versions. But I think the idea of tagging images by features that don't really describe the image but break it down to elements is re-creating a classification system that has previously been advocated Commons:Image_classification_system, but not adopted. "This is a system that does not describe the purpose or typical usage of an image, only its content" (eg a sheriffs badge is classified as a 'seven pointed star'). This seems to be the ultimate classification system thats starts with the idea of lets categorize it as 'round' - if this system is implimented our category system isn't really suited to it, but perhaps template tags could be used (but this is a huge job). As for the 'catscan' tool, it is on every category page, so is not completely obscure :-) --Tony Wills09:17, 3 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I see. In that case, of course, the question remains: how do I come up with the idea to search for a template named round? The category system allows navigation through a tree, which makes for much more natural discovery of categories. As for the catscan link: there is no catscan link when you're using the Cologne Blue skin, as I do ;) --rimshottalk12:40, 3 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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I created this set of categories in order to classify any current subdivisions of countries. These subdivisions can have various names, so it is more convenient to find them in a special category than directly in the COUNTRY category.
Very recently, I have created Category:Subdivisions of South Korea, with a map which helps to understand the complexity of the administrative divisions of South Korea. The special city and metropolitan cities are categorized here, because they are subdivisions of South Korea.
Since many “cities” are in fact municipalities (subdivisions), and not only settlements, I envisage to regroup any settlements categories (cities, towns, villages...) with other subdivisions of a country.
So, give your opinion about these points:
Grouping together different subdivisions of a country in “subdivisions” categories.
Categorizing settlements in “subdivisions” categories.
Positioning of Subdivisions of COUNTRY directly in the COUNTRY category, or in a subcategory (specify).
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Unless there is a need to diambiguate different Oriel Colleges, I think it is better to use the shorter category name. /Ö20:23, 2 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
gosh, eight extra characters... :-) Can't say I minded that much when I moved a lot of the files from Category:Oxford and Category:University of Oxford to college sub-categories the other day, but then I did use copy/paste a lot. Surely it helps to be consistent. Having ", Oxford" after each college within the parent category saves having to worry about / check whether there is another college with a similar name. The similar name might not just be at Cambridge University: e.g. Wolfson College (yes, in Cambridge), Exeter College (yes, a college in Exeter UK as well), Hertford College (no), Green College (yes, Canada), Lincoln College (yes, in Lincoln UK, as well as in US and NZ), Mansfield College (no), Jesus College (yes, in Cambridge)... etc. So either someone needs to nominate for renaming all colleges in Category:University of Oxford and Category:University of Cambridge that have unique names and don't need the extra word after their name, or we have one college (Oriel) as the odd one out for no reason, or we rename Oriel for consistency as suggested. Bencherlite11:55, 4 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That you call “consistency” is only an unconventional association. I completly reject exceptions to general rules, unless serious reasons. --Juiced lemon15:56, 10 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If nobody objects in about five days, I will close this as no consensus with a leaning towards the shorter name. Accordingly, the category name will not be changed. --rimshottalk11:53, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Wondered when somebody would do something! Please note, however, that neither opposer has commented since the main article was renamed Oriel College, Oxford - the matching of the main article name to the category was a reason relied on by one opposer, and so is now a reason in favour of the change. I still think a rename is warranted for the reasons given above (and supported by you, I note: how scrupulous of you to close "no consensus leaning against my personal view"!) However, I fully understand that where contribution to discussion is thin, gauging consensus is a unenviable task. Bencherlite14:13, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If I can't see a consensus, and either alternatives seem workable to me, I'll tend to keep the status quo. Anyway, I wasn't aware that the original article's name was changed, and there was until I put it there no notification on the Oriel College category page. Therefore, I'll wait a bit longer. I have added a notification to Category:University of Oxford as well. It's not like we're in a hurry. --rimshottalk12:38, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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I developped the “Rail transport” structure in Commons because:
Railway and Railroad redirect to Rail transport in the English Wikipedia
I suspected some dispute between English “Railway” and American English “Railroad”
I was not sure that Railways had exactly the same meaning than Rail transport for Commons users.
However, Category:Railways by country remains with many subcategories. So, we should have to decide what to do with this structure, assuming it duplicates the Rail transport structure.
So, I propose to move:
every category Railways in COUNTRY to Rail transport in COUNTRY
every category Railway maps of COUNTRY or Railroad maps of COUNTRY to Rail transport maps of COUNTRY (see Category:Rail transport images).
I'm not very fit in English. So: what is "rail transport" precisely? Does it assume only heavy railways or does it stand for light rail transit forms like metros, LRTs and tramways too? And on the other side: What is the intention for the new categories? In my mind, the old categories "railways in COUNTRY" are for heavy railway systems only. --Chumwa05:16, 3 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Follow the link to the English Wikipedia under the section title. Rail transport regards “rail guided transport”. That includes Maglev train and other techniques without physical contact with the rail, but excludes cableways, conveyor belts, toboggans, pipelines, automated guided vehicles, amongst others.
As said above, “railway” is a redirection to “rail transport” in the English Wikipedia. The English Wikipedia term for “metro” is rapid transit, and this concept includes ligh and heavy railways. What are Category:Railways in Commons is unclear. In my opinion, either we are able to clarify the concept, either we must dismantle the matching structure. --Juiced lemon08:51, 4 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the rail transport category system currently is a mess. I also agree with renaming Railways in COUNTRY to Rail transport in COUNTRY - existing categories can be merged into. Category:Railroad can be upmerged to Category:Rail transport. I think before we start any other moves, we should get together the list of renames necessary for this. When that is through we can get back to discussing the remaining mess. --rimshottalk13:30, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I support merging categories that use railway and railroad in their name, to equivalent categories that use rail transport in their name instead. That includes the "in COUNTRY" ones as well. Probably soft redirects should be left behind and a periodic cleaning done too. But I also agree that developing a larger list of what all would be affected might be helpful as then AWB might be effectively brought to bear. Lar: t/c18:02, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
All the stuff on the temp page looks good to me. I see no objections.... Can you queue it up for the Delinker bot? Lar: t/c21:54, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I have added the heading Batch 1 to all existing proposals. If you add anything new, please make a new heading or a new temp page, as the existing moves have all been double-checked by me. --rimshottalk13:59, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree to use railroad cars as a universal term for unpowered rail vehicles. As was said at the beginning of this discussion, railroad is American use, not universal english. We should build up a structure starting with rolling stock. Next level would be motive power and something like pulled stock. I guess there are better propositions. I will put a proposition on Batch 2 page. Gürbetaler01:08, 10 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't mind using railway wagon instead or railroad car. We could put a redirect at Category:Railroad cars, to be safe. I've changed that part accordingly. I'm not so sure about motor coaches - to choose the name railcars, I went by the wikipedia article. Isn't a motor coach just a bus? --rimshottalk12:50, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I see. w:Multiple unit says that railcars are sometimes referred to as multiple units, when they can be coupled. We could add something to that effect in the description of railcar and multiple unit. As for the translation: the German Schienenbus is very much the same as a railcar. There is a word Triebwagenzug, which describes a train made up of motorized units, so that's about the same as a multiple unit. One part of this train is called Triebwagen. French is a bit more complicated: fr:autorail is used for each of these. There is, however, a word unité multiple, which can be used for multiple units. I think that railcars are special enough to deserve categories of their own - we shouldn't let shortcomings of languages hinder us. --rimshottalk14:31, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that railcars are not elements of multiple units, hence are specific rolling stock. My concern was possible subdivisions of “Multiple units” categories, with a particular substructure for motorized elements of multiple units. --Juiced lemon16:18, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Life is complicated but language is sometimes even more complicated. Triebwagenzug is a word for a certain type of train, saying it is not pulled by a locomotive. But a Triebwagenzug can be a single railcar, a rake of coaches pulled by a motor coach or a multiple unit. The word Schienenbus is always a diesel powered railcar in Germany (but the Swedish rälsbus can also be electric). Newer series could be MUed and thus became DMUs. In Switzerland, the word was never used, except for the German vehicles, but in Germany the word is now also gone - except for the few preserved ones. This is just to say, language is living and there isn't always an exact match for one word in every language. Railcar or Multiple units are "wrong" categories for motor coaches that pull trains like locomotives do. Triebwagen stands for more than just multiple units, it is also motor coach and railcar. Gürbetaler23:46, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We specify categories according to selected subjects, that is subjects which can be easily defined and understood. Language issues have minor importance. If you need a particular category, define its subject, then we'll find the name if the subject is relevant. --Juiced lemon00:34, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, that's what I'm trying to say. I need a category for the photos of Swiss "Triebwagen", which have conceptual elements of multiple units, railcars and motor coaches. Concept and use of these vehicles is different from British or American designs. This is why neither multiple units nor railcars does really fit. Gürbetaler21:22, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think that “multiple unit” is a shortage for “multiple-unit train” (see multiple unit). So, the components of a “multiple-unit train” are units like trailer units or special units (various types, according to combinations of “power-delivery”, “motor” and “cab”).
Literally, Triebwagen means “motor coach”, or “motor unit”. However, we can have steam, diesel or electric motors. Do you need categories for these types? Railcars are not “motor units”, because they cannot be coupled, except with trailers. And an only “motor unit” don't transform in a railcar. --Juiced lemon23:34, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
According to a discussion on SwissRail group, neither multiple unit nor railcar is correct for many Swiss Triebwagen. They are used like locomotives, even for freight trains. They are now in the following categories:
There are buckets full of Ian Allen Books that were called "British Rail Motive Power" and contained all locomotives and multiple units. So, motive poweris specific to vehicles. And for the rest, why should we discern betwen motive power and railcars? No Swiss vehicle was ever called "Schienenbus". Simply assume, this category doesn't exist in Switzerland! --Gürbetaler19:09, 15 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If there is no need to discern between motive power and railcars, the current scheme for Switzerland is satisfactory, since it's the same one for any country in the world. --Juiced lemon19:54, 15 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The site you indicate is from a group of French speaking Swiss railway photographers. They may be a reference for railway photography or for Swiss-French railway terms but sure not for English railway terms. In a long discussion [4] between people from different parts of this world we could establish, that motor coach is a good translation for Triebwagen. However, only British English uses this term, while American English would rather tend to the word motor car. To avoid a mix-up with the American use of the term, which is for long-distance buses, it was proposed to put "rail motor coach". Now it is impossible to find a term that is equally used everywhere. It remains a fact that Americans call coaches passenger cars, points switches and railways railroads. Here are some references for the British use of motor coach for Triebwagen:
And, by the way, this is the word I find in my dictionnary as translation for "Triebwagen". There is no reason NOT to use the term "motor coach". -- Gürbetaler16:20, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The English Wikipedia article locomotive lists the different types of railway vehicles which provide the motive power for a train:
I think we should confine with these terms. We should also define criteria in order to easily classify the railway vehicles between these four main types. --Juiced lemon21:43, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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According to the modularity principle in Commons:Naming categories#Principles), which widely applied in Commons, the subcategories “compound” names have to be made up from the basic (English) name of the parent category: Bruges. This was clearly announced in Category talk:Brugge.
Now, some users (in particular Flemish ones) are leading a trench warfare in order to prevent the set up of subcategories with “Bruges” in their name:
removing categorization of used category pages [12]
adding move requests to correct subcategories [13]
These actions are a waste of time and are detrimental to the access to media files related to Bruges. Therefore, I request the administrators to enforce the current language policy. --Juiced lemon 09:38, 31 August 2007 (UTC) --Juiced lemon09:53, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
First, this is not an action of Flemish users, it is my personal action to try to decrease the level of hostility and conflict generating procedures that lead to edit wars. I would take exactly the same action if I was speaking another language. Personally, I don't care less if the subcats are using Bruges or Brugge: I care about a consistent approach that is acceptable for local people that are non-english speakers and that have to "live and work" daily in "their" categories. This action is in the first place inspired by the fact that there is probably no single substantial non-english speaking city that follows the proposed commons language rules (which are not a formal policy, nor a formally accepted set of rules).
As I explained several days before I started my action in User_talk:Juiced_lemon#Please_STOP (which now has been removed by Juiced lemon, so I made a copy available in Category_talk:Bruges#Please_STOP), Category:Bruges is the demo case based on which I want to make a global commons user assessment, definition of user needs and a number of suggestions for improvements in naming conventions, multi-language solutions, easier access, categorisation, procedures etc ...
Independently from this action, I think that I will be able to formulate interestings suggestions for actual and future multi-language tools and wiki's.
So my only request is to allow me to continue to prepare a documented and demonstrated case, which might be completed by the end of september. --Foroa10:22, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The topics structure is not intended for testing. You can build any categories structure for testing with your user's subpages. --Juiced lemon10:43, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It is widely known that demonstrations of improvements, standards and other concepts are only realistic if they are done and exercised with representative data sets, conditions and environment. It is a bit strange that this is the first argument against my democase since I communicated it to Juiced lemon.
This category is equally a demonstration of the inherently conflicting movecat procedure, which is to the best of my knowledge, not a procedure which is documented or allowed in the commons procedures, but very much appreciated and applied by Juiced lemon, and a major cause of edit wars, frustrated people and a significant part of the disputes. --Foroa12:05, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Foroa, it doesn't belong to you to decide if your demonstration grants to be exercised in the topics structure. You have not explained what you want to demonstrate, and you have not persuaded us that your demonstration will be useful to something neither. --Juiced lemon13:17, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
--Juiced lemon: Com'on Juiced lemon, almost all non-english speaking and several english speaking cities are demonstrators of the non-respect of the non-written and non-agreed commons categoriastaion and language rules.
This discussion seems still in progress, according to the notice on the Category:Bruges-page. At present we have a cat with the English name (which seems reasonable, cf. Antwerp, Cologne (also very French!), Vienna, Warsaw), some subcats with the same name, but some subcats with a Dutch name. Some subcats should also undergo a name change (the ones with Brugge, I would say). The only exception I could find to support "Brugge" (local instead of English) is Category:Kraków, which to me is as hard to understand as "Brugge". Fransvannes18:52, 19 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Bruges. This has stayed open way too long and its unresolved mess is what brought me here. Half the images are in English named categories and the other half are in local named categories. More now then when this CfD started, categories are suppose to use English names, so that is what I'm going with. Consistency is good. We can't change it up every city just for the hell of it. That would make it very challenging to find anything. Rocket00006:16, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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I have prepared a batch rename for Statues of ... to Statues in ... at User:Siebrand/test#Next. Please double check the categories to be renamed, feeling free to correct or remove entries. Please le me know here you have reviewed. Cheers! Siebrand13:15, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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I completely understand and agree with the move from the use of "soccer" in the categories for non-U.S. countries. However, this usage is similarly incorrect. Nobody in the United States refers to our football as "American football". There isn't a standard to use "football" to unilaterally refer to the game Americans know as soccer - if there was, Category:Soccer venues in the United States, a preference towards using the American name for the sport for the category referring to the United States, wouldn't exist. It only makes sense to use that same standard instead of imposing a Euro-centric naming approach.
I am also nominating the subcategories in this category, namely the divisions by individual states, and the category "College American football venues", which is similarly redundant - if "college football" can be used without any separate distinction on the English Wikipedia, I see no reason why we need further "clarification" here. --Fuzzy51017:27, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Category names should be predictable. Is it intuitive that "Football venues in the United States" and "Football venues in England" have very different content? Even though you might confuse many people who don't speak English as their mothertongue, you could argue that it actually is intuitive. But what would you call the supercategories of these two? They can't both be "Football venues by country". Samulili07:51, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep No clear request. This category name is a compound name, built from American football. As long as the expression American football is used in Commons, there is no reason to change this expression in any American football-related category. --Juiced lemon 08:55, 14 October 2007 (UTC)--Juiced lemon08:55, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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In my experiences images are more likely to be added to the correct category than added to the image page. I've created a number of galleries, which, upon creation, suddenly had a number of images in them. Some people use categories to search and not image pages - it's all about helping people to find the images they are looking for. Anrie14:01, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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These category contains a few pictures of lace. The category is the *only* category containing these pictures. The category name however does not reflect the real world characteristics of these pictures however. The category is *only* a category grouping a few pictures made by a user, as is clear from its name. Therefore, 2 solutions:
1: this category can be removed, and the pictures are moved to category:Lace.
2: maybe the category can be kept (there are other categories on wikipedia grouping pictures from one user, or grouping pictures from some source, with some license, made with some software or so ?). But then all pictures in this category should also have category:lace added, so they are *also* part of the normal categories right ?
I think 2 is a valid solution, and 1 is not necessary ?
No it does not violates the GFDL license; you can change the pics, not the cats or the text. Like it is right now it is fair, My name is obviously written, when you cat all in cat: lace, you start with dubble cats, i'll never accept that my private collection is categorised as ordanary 'Lace'; see also: The Collection of Friedrich II von Preußen; here the paintings are aswell presented as a collection, with underlines the value of the collection. Besides why Am I having an discussion with an anonymus person, show yourself! Carolus22:29, 4 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with User:Ö. This user isn't a notable person, so his personal maintenance categories should be part of the Category:User galleries you pointed to, and not the normal categories. This can even be a bit redundant, as the user already has a gallery with the pictures User:Carolus/Lace Collection, but that his decision how he wants to organize his user space pages. The category can not be a part of category:Lace I think, as the user itself is not notable to deserve an own category, and the pictures shoudl be accessible through category:lace in a normal categorization. Also not that cries like "!!!!!!!!!DO NOT TOUCH WITOUT PERMISSION OF CAROLUS !!!!!!!!!!!" in the category description are completely incompatible with the GFDL. Regards, <name removed> --81.169.137.20911:45, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I stop with negotiating, because my privacy is given public by 81.169.137.209!! I do not continue until the anonymous guy/girl is blocked! Carolus15:12, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I must say I agree with Ö here. Category:Private Lace Collection of Carolus should be categorized as a user gallery, and all images in it should, additionally, be put into Category:Lace. As for the GFDL issue: images are allowed to have a number of free licenses, among them GFDL, all text must be GFDL. Keep in mind that you do not own any text here, if you create a category or a gallery you automatically accept that people are allowed to change them. You do own, in a way, your pictures, of course, but you cannot specify what shall be done with them. Once you publish them under the GFDL they can be used in many ways without your explicit approval, including putting them into a different category. --rimshottalk10:24, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
So in fact there is no problem. No changes have to be made. Anonimous contributor using (two) different ip-s both blocked on nl.wiki in november 2006 as sockpuppet and open proxy, has clearly started his trolling actions to harm Carolus (also a user from nl.wiki). Administrators on Commons are kindly requested to take notice of these facts and think twice before rewarding this attack on Carolus en run the risk to shy away this art-loving user who has been so kind and selfless to upload lots of unique en often beautiful material - like the collection on hand-made Belgium lace - and who is definitely not a native speaker of the lingua franca on Commons. There is no harm in having this private collection and no need to take is apart. If administrators think there is, instructions on how to make changes should be given in Dutch. Kind regards - Aiko11:06, 10 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I just added Category:Lace to these images, but before I saw the link to this discussion. Nevertheless I intend to leave it, as it's quite inappropriate to have a sub-category of Lace which is not a type of lace or other scientific subdivision but simply a reference to the user that has uploaded the images. The comment "!!!!!!!!!DO NOT TOUCH WITOUT PERMISSION OF CAROLUS !!!!!!!!!!!" in the category description is in clear violation of the GFDL license which automatically applies to all text on this site (see the wording that appears below the edit box whenever any text is being typed in - not only image text but any text). I have accordingly deleted that warning. I'll leave it to others to decide whether to de-link that private category from the lace category. --MichaelMaggs19:20, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Something does not look very consistent: all sorts of user categories are allowed but not this one. And if the lace is a real private collection, what then ? --Foroa20:53, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is not clear in Commons:User-specific galleries, templates and categories policy, so there is probably no clear reason to delete such a cat. This "private stuff" shouting is obviously against the commons spirit and GFDL. Nevertheless, iy is quite possible that this lace is part of a real private collection, in which case it can have its own category I should think. --Foroa21:12, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Consider Category:Taken by Lar and its subcategories. We do not prevent people from putting images in user categories, the restriction is that the image should not be in ONLY that category (or it's not very useful to others) and that the user categories should not be commingled with topic categories (as that's confusing to others). So, in my view, this category could stay... but the images need to be reviewed and added to other categories (Category:Lace or perhaps subcats or related cats) as well. Lar: t/c15:07, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Images are already in category:Lace so then the only thing which remains is to remove category:Lace from the user category, which I just did. /Lokal_Profil00:25, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Carolus, it's unfortunate you feel that way. The actual result here is that the items were put into a more generic category, and left in the user specific category. That is common practice. It happened to me too and at the time I was a bit put off by it but I saw the logic. You are free to contribute or not, as you like, and you are free to license your images in a way that requires attribution, if you are concerned with credit, but we have to do things in a way that benefits the most people. I hope you understand, and every best wish in future. This discussion has reminded me I have to take some pictures of my mother's bobbin lace and lacemaking equipment... nowhere near as nice as your collection to be sure. Lar: t/c15:28, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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First of all, what is photographies supposed to mean? The plural of photograph is photographs. As for the usefulness of a new category: I think it can be useful, especially for very crowded categories of flags. I would propose a new category tree as follows:
Flags
Photographs of flags
Flags by country
Photographs of flags by country
Flags of Italy
Photographs of flags of Italy
... and so on, with all Photographs of flags by/of XXX being in two categories: one from the photographs of flags tree and one from the normal flags tree. That way, there is no need for the photographs-of-flags tree to be complete. --rimshottalk13:32, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think your proposal for a category structure is good. 'Photographies' is probably only a mistake by a non-native English speaker (in some languages 'photography' and 'photograph' is the same word (and the word sounding like the English 'photograph' means 'photographer')). /Ö14:17, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that occured to me as well (Fotografien - Photographies), after I wrote the reply. I'm a native speaker of German, so I probably should have seen that earlier. --rimshottalk16:18, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, very good all this. photographies is a gallicism, I (and the Germans) mixed up languages in the Babel of commons, sorry. Havang11:47, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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No. When the English Wikipedia don't need to show the province name, Wikipedia Commons don't need that neither. The general principle is that we don't add disambiguation suffixes when there is nothing to disambiguate. --Juiced lemon08:14, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
[edit conflict] Because English Wikipedia does not use province names why would that be justification for doing the same here - multi lingual, multi project Commons? --Herbytalk thyme08:28, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If you assert that lions are spotted, I don't go to demonstrate that you are wrong. It belongs to you to prove your assertion at first. Similarly, it belongs to you to justify why we would not do the same that (generally) in the English Wikipedia, in adding disambiguation suffixes when they are not useful.
From experience, I know that disambiguation suffixes are painful to manage, because they must be kept in any “compound” category. We have no chance to enforce such rule if most suffixes are useless.
Therefore, suffixes must not be unnecessarily added. Suffixes were added to German cities names, then they were finally removed.
Please provide a pointer to where it says we must not follow en wp. Adding useless disambiguation suffixes is not a current custom in Wikimedia Commons, so I am afraid your request is not sensible: if you have an odd idea, it belongs to you to justify that your intentions have some sense. --Juiced lemon09:52, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Frankly in a multi lingual, multi project Commons I find your idea and lack of justification very poor indeed. You cannot deal with things just be saying "I am right" all the time. This project covers all Wikis and all languages - you must be prepared to listen to other views and to justify your position if you expect to be listened to. Your approach, not for the first time, is non collaborative to a high degree --Herbytalk thyme09:56, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Wikimedia Commons is NOT an encyclopedia. Teach something is not in the objectives of the project. If you want to learn something about the subject of a category, use one of the provided interwiki links. Country subdivisions are classified in appropriate categories (by location), so there is no ambiguity regarding their location.
2. Perhaps their spelling is same as other city/county on other countries. (For example, China)
Disambiguation cases about encyclopedic subjects are already managed in the English Wikipedia. Major places names have no disambiguation suffixes, like Category:Paris. Suffixes are used only for places of lesser importance, like Paris, Texas. It's unlikely we'll discover new major places to disambiguate. --Juiced lemon10:32, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Wikimedia Commons is NOT an encyclopedia., so we must write simply where it exists. With its province name, we can know where it exists simply. Some users cannot read English. If there is a duplicate spelling city/county, we must distinguish for example Anyang and Anyang. "Some city/county category is with its province name, but some city/county category is without its province name" this system causes confusion. Unified rule is required. LERK(Talk / Contributions / Mail)10:53, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Just a couple of observations:
Categories on commons are used to group files that address a specific subject. Giving the category a name that describes the subject is all that's required, and doesn't amount to an encyclopedic entry.
Wikipedias don't need categories to be as specific as commons does. For example, a Wikipedia should only have one article about a particular species of plant, while commons might have hundreds of files pertaining to a particular species of plant. --SB_Johnny | PA!06:58, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Because English Wikipedia does not use province names why would that be justification for doing the same here - multi lingual, multi project Commons?
Wikimedia Commons and the English Wikipedia are different projects, and there are independent each over. Therefore, each projet is managed according to their own rules or guidelines.
However, for efficiency reasons, we generally use the English Wikipedia as a reference in Commons Wikimedia. For example, we can use the English Wikipedia to learn that Ansan is a city in Gyeonggi-do, a province of South Korea. Note that at least another place has the same name (homonym): Ansan (Gers), and that no suffix was added to the South Korean city name, since Ansan (South Korea) is a major city, while Ansan (Gers) has only 63 inhabitants.
So, we can use the English Wikipedia in order:
to know if a given name has homonyms in the English language
to note the result of the possible disambiguation process (this process is time consuming, the more reason is that we have not disambiguation rules)
In Commons, we add disambiguations suffixes only when necessary. Otherwise, near all category names would have suffixes. Therefore, the correct category name for the city Ansan in South Korea is Category:Ansan.
I'm reading this quickly - so we make our own rules but when you think we should follow en wp that becomes the rules, if it doesn't suit you then we don't do it like that. Little time today but tomorrow I will post in a more read place about this aspect of Commons JL for my clarification as much as anything. It is a difficult subject and requires broad community views --Herbytalk thyme13:44, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Italian regional flags to Category:Flags of regions of Italy
They don't have the same content: those photos are both photos of flags and photos of the parade, so the categoy is linked by both the flags and the parade categories. Merging would "detach" a part of the parade photos, or include material unrelated to the parade in the category tree. --Jollyroger08:49, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Move, not merge. I prefer to keep flagdesigns and photographs of flags in parallel but separate category trees under the general Category:flags. What name to choose? flags on photographs or photographs of flags? and for subcategories: flags of regions of Italy on photographs or photographs of flags of regions of Italy? I prefer emphasis on flags. Havang12:00, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I see those images are all in the parade category. I thought they were in a subcat linked by the parade page. Sorry for misunderstanding. Anytway, I agree with Havang, it is better to keep schemes and photos in two different categories. --Jollyroger13:41, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, I have now created some of the Photographs of flags tree, but I still do not really know what Category:Italian regional flags is supposed to be about. I guess it's one of the following:
Why not put all parade photographs in the parade 2007 category and give all photographs with a flag (not only those with a region flag, there are more flags photgraphed) one secundary category in the photographs of flags tree. Also add in the item page a description about what flag is pictured, that is as important as classification in a category. Havang09:22, 24 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It was my understanding that the category was meant to disperse the parade 2007 category, which was way too crowded. That's why it's no solution to put the images back in there. --rimshottalk11:36, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This category need not be merged with flags of regions of italy, these are not flag images but images of flags in parade which is different from the proposed merge category. 16:44, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
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This is with respect to Category:Annonaceae & Category:Annonaceae (Indexed). Could somebody educate me as to why we have two similar categories for each Plant family? Category Annonaceae already exists and some images are same while some are different in the indexed category. A person who searches the family category may not find all the images in one place. Cant we have ordering by using pages or subcategories for species instead.
The category page of 'Annonaceae (Indexed)' is itself part of 'Category:Plantae by family (Indexed)' which states that :
This category is for photos of plants which have been indexed in a plant family article.
What do they mean by indexed?
Do we have any kind of WikiProject on Commons for discussing such issues? Where can I converse with dedicated plant-image contributers?
Though I have listed Annonaceae (Indexed) for deletion, (I had to complete the procedure), I am looking for help in understanding rather than deletion of any categories.
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First of all, the contents of this category should be moved to Category:Mosques. Secondly, there is a gallery there as well. It should either be deleted or added to Mosque. We can then make this page either a redirect or a category redirect.--rimshottalk21:02, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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I wasn't aware that kicking is a form of locomotion, couldn't we just remove it from that category? Also, while you could technically say that this guy is kicking the boards, wouldn't one more correctly speak of performing a kick? I think that kicks is a more suitable category for these images - consistency should not be a reason to use a bad name. --rimshottalk13:28, 6 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
My misstake. Just take it out of locomotion. Still think the current category name is missleading though. As can be seen from it's contents it's mixing kicks (martial arts type) with kicking (say kicking a football). A name which would destinguish between the two would be better. /Lokal_Profil22:05, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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‘Ancient Greek coins’ is ambiguous. This, and the term ‘pre-Roman coins’ are overlapping to such an extent that they might be construed as covering exactly the same groups of coins, depending on definition. I suggest renaming the category ‘Ancient Greek and pre-Roman coins’. This would prevent confusion (arising from the present ambiguous name) as to what belongs in the category and what doesn’t. ‘Ancient Greek coins’ is a term usually applied to pre-Roman coins of the Mediterranean region. The present name of the category is ethnocentric, which - if rigorously applied - will be rather unworkable. Many coin issuing ancient peoples of the Mediterranean region weren't Greeks. The Greeks even considered the Macedonians to be non-Greeks. Accordingly, "Ancient Greek coins" is often used interchangeably with "pre-Roman coins", and catalogues generally include Judaean, Carthaginian, Celt-Iberian coins etc. along with the Greek. To avoid any confusion about which coins are supposedly "Greek" and which aren't, I think the category should be labelled Ancient Greek and pre-Roman coins. Alfons Åberg18:40, 7 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The proposal is far worse. The standard form is “Coins of Ancient Greece”, and this category would be moved to Category:Coins of Ancient Greece. If you want to classify coins according to any criterion, “period” for example, create suitable subcategories. --Juiced lemon14:11, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Oppose to both. The result would be a huge monster-category needing in a very short time to be split in two, "Ancient Greek", and something else. Which is what already is. So why bother?
Åberg, what you do is noticing that in Commons there is not a meaningful categorization for coins for non -Greek ancient cultures. This is because we who are at work on the period rather concentrated on Greeks and Romans first, and this shortcoming regards all artifacts of any kind. Therefore it would be most appropriate if it were you to fill the gap.
To do so, I suggest that you might rather create appropriate categories for all the people you mention: Carthaginians, Phoenicians and so on.
By the way, I never heard before that these coins were "Greek". They may have been "hellenistic", but I don't know how Carthaginians could be considered "Greek". So, if you think you need them, you could rather create categories for "Hellenistic Phoenician coins", which is the correct way to name them, versus "Phoenician coins" proper (inscribed in punic) and "Greek coins" proper.
As for juiced Lemon, again we have to repeat what we had to underlined here: Category talk:Ancient Greek jewelry. There was never such a thing as "Ancient Greece" covering the whole territory inhabited by the Greeks (no more than a Category "Ancient Lebanon" could cover the whole area inhabited by Phoenicians...). This is why the national categorization scheme cannot work here. "Ancient Greece" is better left to be used to mean the territory of today's Greece in Ancient times, whatever the population (e.g. Thracians, Eteocretenses & re.) inhabiting it was. However, most of the coins we are dealing with were in no way "from" Greece: they come from all over the Mediterranean sea. The "nation" category system is therefore unfit for a reality which was a people, a culture, even an empire (and the Romans made the Roman empire, the Greeks made the Byzantine empire, which they called "Roman empire"... hardly "Ancient Greece", then!), but not a nation, prior to 19th century. --User:G.dallorto02:26, 4 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Messier objects is the category for the 110 Messier objects. When the object has a special name in the English Wikipedia, an extra redirect category is also categorized there.
I don't know what is exactly Messier Catalog: maybe Catalog of Nebulae and Star Clusters ([18]), or this images source ([19])?
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Supportrename to Religion in ancient Rome, as my dictionary confirms this. There are some more, so I've made a list. Feel free to add more as you find them. --rimshottalk17:56, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Rename Category:Religion in Ancient Rome to Category:Religion in ancient Rome (83 entries moved, 0 to go) Warning: Please add a reason. Warning: Username of requester missing (user parameter). For transparency and to prevent abuse, please add your username. Religion in Ancient Rome;Religion in ancient Rome;r;
Rename Category:Leisure in Ancient Rome to Category:Leisure in ancient Rome (26 entries moved, 0 to go) Warning: Please add a reason. Warning: Username of requester missing (user parameter). For transparency and to prevent abuse, please add your username. Leisure in Ancient Rome;Leisure in ancient Rome;r;
Rename Category:Old maps of Ancient Rome to Category:Old maps of ancient Rome (15 entries moved, 0 to go) Warning: Please add a reason. Warning: Username of requester missing (user parameter). For transparency and to prevent abuse, please add your username. Old maps of Ancient Rome;Old maps of ancient Rome;r;
Rename Category:Old maps of Ancient Rome (city) to Category:Old maps of ancient Rome (city) (134 entries moved, 0 to go) Warning: Please add a reason. Warning: Username of requester missing (user parameter). For transparency and to prevent abuse, please add your username. Old maps of Ancient Rome (city);Old maps of ancient Rome (city);r;
Rename Category:Maps of Ancient Rome (city) to Category:Maps of ancient Rome (city) (243 entries moved, 0 to go) Warning: Please add a reason. Warning: Username of requester missing (user parameter). For transparency and to prevent abuse, please add your username. Maps of Ancient Rome (city);Maps of ancient Rome (city);r;
Rename Category:Maps of Ancient Rome to Category:Maps of ancient Rome (178 entries moved, 1 to go) Warning: Please add a reason. Warning: Username of requester missing (user parameter). For transparency and to prevent abuse, please add your username. Maps of Ancient Rome;Maps of ancient Rome;r;
Rename Category:Death in Ancient Rome to Category:Death in ancient Rome (27 entries moved, 0 to go) Warning: Please add a reason. Warning: Username of requester missing (user parameter). For transparency and to prevent abuse, please add your username. Death in Ancient Rome;Death in ancient Rome;r;
Rename Category:Prostitution in Ancient Rome to Category:Prostitution in ancient Rome (9 entries moved, 0 to go) Warning: Please add a reason. Warning: Username of requester missing (user parameter). For transparency and to prevent abuse, please add your username. Prostitution in Ancient Rome;Prostitution in ancient Rome;r;
and possibly
Rename Category:Ancient Roman Navy to Category:Navy of ancient Rome (42 entries moved, 0 to go) Warning: Please add a reason. Warning: Username of requester missing (user parameter). For transparency and to prevent abuse, please add your username. Ancient Roman Navy;Navy of ancient Rome;r;
Support as per naming conventions but "Navy of ancient Rome" might be more consistent than "Ancient Roman navy". --Foroa18:11, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Correct capitalization concerns also other compound categories with the expression “Ancient Rome”. I support the move requests above, except for the navy: "Navy of ancient Rome" is a better proposal. --Juiced lemon17:06, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Indeed, who knows where those animals are now and it's not like Leptophyes punctatisimma is somehow especially a Hamburg-er animal. Samulili19:38, 13 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The idea/point of having categories "animals of xyz" is not to list species special to that area only, but to - over time create useful overviews of all species found in a certain area. Of course, in the beginning there will be only be a few species in each category, but it only adds one category marker to each image and in the end (I'm talking 5-10 years) we would end up with fair indexes of zoological variety in many areas. What's so bad about having categories "Animals of Germany" or "Animals of Hessen" (or Hamburg for that matter) to document the fauna of such an area (at some point in the future!)? I know for a fact that local biologists would love to have access to such information (which is why I started it in the first place). At some point such categories might even show geographically related variance in coloring or other characters of certain species. It's a small effort to add to image uploads, I cannot imagine that the one category marker extra in each image is a "problem" or "in the way" so why destroy extra information that comes with the images instead of putting it to possible future good use. We DO ask users to provide "Location" information with the images - to me it seems daft to NOT want that same information in a structured manner so that it can be better retrieved and organized ??? What is your "problem" other than the momentarily still scarce content? Pudding4brains20:25, 13 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What you describe would be even more problematic. You could place the gallery Rattus norvegicus in about gazillion categories. For biologists looking for variation we don't really need categories if all images in Category:Leptophyes punctatisimma have location in their description. It's also about using the right tools for the right job. Samulili07:57, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Personally I do not think the category:animals of xyz are of any use at all, the nature of the 'sampling' process (ie what gets photographed) has all sorts of weird biases that destroy any statistical validity of animal distribution. But on a practical level some people assume such categories should include every picture of a species that can be found in a particular region regardless of where it was actually photographed, others assume it should only contain images photographed in a particular region, regardless of whether they are normally found there (eg a photo taken in a zoo). --Tony Wills20:44, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't quite follow the logic of both replies - seems to me it's "looking for reasons" more than anything else. The way I have explained the intention of the categories, it seems clear to me that they are intended to categorize only images/animals that were actually photographed in the area (in the wild). If this is not clear to the average user it could easily be remedied with a simple one -liner at the top of the category page (template of course).
In my view the only valid concern would be Tony's "bias of photography choice", which in the end is not our problem but the problem of the scientist using the data. Nevertheless biologist seem to be very content with such collections of data/photograhps anyway - maybe not as a "main" source, but certainly as "extra info". Please have a look at waarneming.nl which has the exact same problem of non-scientific bias, but is still very popular with scientist and provides them with a lot of info that they can put to good use. Of course our categories would not be of interest only to scientists, but also to any other person (school kids?) interested in finding pictures of animals that can be found in a certain area.
@Samulili: To me the category system seems to be the perfect tool for the purpose as I really could not tink of any possible way to get an overview of say all animals photographed in Germany or Bavaria by using any other search methods Commons currently offers: Or do you suggest generating 10.000 seperate searches with all names of Bavarias town and villages (assuming these would be entered in the info fields in a structured manner)??
On the other hand I've totally given up on the idea that Commons could actually become a place where it would be possible to find anything on the basis of such meta data as "location" (or anything else) in a structured manner. All efforts to provide anything that could be interpreted as structured information seem to be eradicated by the information police who want Commons to be just storage without any aid (extra info) to the people who might at some point want to actually use the images in various ways. So, do as you please, see if I care ... Pudding4brains14:29, 15 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Rename Category:Nobel Prize winners (talk) to Category:Nobel laureates (23 entries moved, 0 to go) Warning: Please add a reason. Warning: Username of requester missing (user parameter). For transparency and to prevent abuse, please add your username. Nobel Prize winners;Nobel laureates;r;
Rename Category:Nobel Prize in Physics winners to Category:Nobel laureates in Physics (224 entries moved, 0 to go) Warning: Please add a reason. Warning: Username of requester missing (user parameter). For transparency and to prevent abuse, please add your username. Nobel Prize in Physics winners;Nobel laureates in Physics;r;
Rename Category:Nobel Prize winners on stamps to Category:Nobel laureates on stamps (135 entries moved, 0 to go) Warning: Please add a reason. Warning: Username of requester missing (user parameter). For transparency and to prevent abuse, please add your username. Nobel Prize winners on stamps;Nobel laureates on stamps;r;
Rename Category:Nobel Prize in Literature winners to Category:Nobel laureates in Literature (124 entries moved, 0 to go) Warning: Please add a reason. Warning: Username of requester missing (user parameter). For transparency and to prevent abuse, please add your username. Nobel Prize in Literature winners;Nobel laureates in Literature;r;
Rename Category:Nobel Prize in Economics winners to Category:Nobel laureates in Economics (90 entries moved, 0 to go) Warning: Please add a reason. Warning: Username of requester missing (user parameter). For transparency and to prevent abuse, please add your username. Nobel Prize in Economics winners;Nobel laureates in Economics;r;
Rename Category:Nobel Prize in Chemistry winners to Category:Nobel laureates in Chemistry (193 entries moved, 0 to go) Warning: Please add a reason. Warning: Username of requester missing (user parameter). For transparency and to prevent abuse, please add your username. Nobel Prize in Chemistry winners;Nobel laureates in Chemistry;r;
Genitals:The reproductive organs, especially the external sex organs. ([21])
Vulva:The external genital organs of the female, including the labia majora, labia minora, clitoris, and vestibule of the vagina. ([22])
“Vulva” has a clear definition, then the meaning of “genitalia” have to be deduced from the context. However, the first meaning is “reproductive organs” , and that explains:
There is obviously some difference between an organ system and a the set of reproductive organs. However, AnonMoos don't explain why this difference is important for classification purposes. My opinion is that we must not keep categories with vague names, because that always leads to classification mistakes.
I had choosed the destination category of the move request according to the subject. The contents generally doesn't matter: each media file have to be classified according to its own features, in the more suitable categories, and a category move don't change that: the terminology is misleading.--Juiced lemon13:56, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
User:Juiced_lemon seems to base a lot of his categorization decisions on abstract metaphysical reasoning, sometimes seemingly without much paying attention as to how such alterations of the category structure will affect the practical side of helping people to better be able to find particular images (which is the real reason why we have categories at all).
Currently, Category:Female genitalia is for external views, while images directly in Category:Female reproductive system are generally for deeper images which depict what lies beneath the skin (not just what's on the surface). This is a useful distinction, and the result of Juiced_lemon's philosophical reasonings would be to collapse this distinction, and lump the two types of images indiscriminately together in a single category. This is undesirable -- and what's quite strange is that Juiced_lemon has just recently created a category:Vulva which is quite redundant and duplicative to category:Female genitalia, but he does not propose merging category:Vulva and category:Female genitalia together (which would have no bad effects), but instead inexplicably rpoposes merging category:Female genitalia and Category:Female reproductive system together (which would have definite bad effects, as discussed above).
I really wish that Juiced_lemon would pay more attention to the practical effects of changing category structures (considering carefully whether or not such changes will help people to better and more easily find images), instead of basing everything on abstract theories and general philosophy -- and also that Juiced_lemon would just slow down when people have expressed concerns over some of his actions -- instead of unilaterally charging ahead twice as fast while ignoring almost everything that other people have said (which is pretty much what Juiced_lemon did here). AnonMoos14:26, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You said: Currently, Category:Female genitalia is for external views, but obviously, some users don't share your interpretation: this image is not an external view of female sex organs.
External views of female sex organs will be categorized in category:vulva, or in more precise categories where appropriate. A move request doesn't change the basic rules of classification, doesn't presume the ways of the move process, and cannot have bad effects.
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Reasons for discussion request -- The naming is ambigious as there is a Perth, Tasmania and a Perth Western Australia. The content currently in the category is all for Perth WA so the category should be renamed to that. This would also make the category consistant with all other Wikimedia projects which distinguish between the two locations. Gnangarra15:04, 9 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Given the size of Perth, Tasmania (2000 people), I think we can safely assume that people looking for Perth, Australia mean the capital of WA. --rimshottalk12:31, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not moved. 哦，是吗？(висчвын) 17:46, 17 May 2008 (GMT)
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Oppose It is not clearer, these are different expressions with different meanings. “Former country subdivision” is easily understandable, with the help of the English Wikipedia article country subdivision if needed. --Juiced lemon23:18, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Former country subdivisions can be interpreted as both "subdivisions of former countries" and "former subdivisions of current countries". As far as I've understood it's only intended to be used for "former subdivisions of current countries" since it is not part of the Category:Former countries-tree. Therefore Former subdivisions of countries is clearer. /Lokal_Profil00:10, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
“former subdivisions in current countries” and "former subdivisionsof current countries" is not that far from each other but completly separeate from "subdivisions of former countries". But yes you're suggestion is better. Rename "Former country subdivisions" to "Former subdivisions by country" which is much clearer./ Lokal_Profil11:26, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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I'm nominating these two categories for renaming to make them consistent with the naming conventions at Category:Courthouses in the United States, the parent category. Besides consistency, having "county" in the category name discourages categorizing appellate and supreme court buildings here, but it's more logical to have all the courthouses for one state in the same category (they aren't very large).--Chaser20:10, 11 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree with removing county from the name as I see no reason to mix them. If and when such images get uploaded they can have their own category. Cburnett20:24, 11 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
They'realreadybeinguploaded and there are probably double that many images on the English Wikipedia that could be moved to Commons for the occasional non-English article about a state supreme court (in the case of the Nevada image, it was uploaded here for just that purpose). Having them all in the same category makes sense at this stage because it's rare for Wikimedia to have more than one image of any state supreme court.--Chaser00:16, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I was talking about for TX & IA, but that's fine. Assume all IA courthouses have a picture. You're talking 99 counties plus Northern (2) and Southern (3) halves of the 8th circuit. Assume none of the files are named systematically and you want a picture of the appellate court in Davenport. Go. Worst case is you have to click on 104 images to read if it's the right one. In this case the point of categorization has lost all meaning and helpfulness. Assume that the files are named reasonably, you still have to look at 104 file names to find it.
It would be a heck of a lot easier to find what you want if you had a category for each, much so if and when courthouses start getting duplicates. Instead of setting up the categories for future hardship why not solve the problem here and now? Is a few dozen more categories going to break commons or something? Cburnett15:53, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. At least remove the "county" restriction from the name, as per the reason stated above. No opinion about "of" versus "in", though. — Loadmaster18:09, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. Create a new, higher category of Courthouses of Texas that County Courthouses of Texas would link in to -Nv8200p15:57, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with the concept of using the naming convention to standardize the form. A courthouse could theoretically not be a county one, for example the state's Supreme Court, so the word "county" is inappropriate. Adding those few images to state's pool doesn't make it more unruly. Hopefully the uploader would add the county courthouse to the appropriate county category so that it's easier to find. Disagree with the word "of" - it should be renamed to "in" in order to be consistent with parent category. The naming convention of all other buildings that I know of is "Building" in "State", so this convention should be changed for greater consistency. I hate the whole "in" vs "of" confusion - pick one and go with it. "In" makes more sense to me. Royalbroil04:12, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Disagree. Different species. County courthouses are in some places owned and run by the county itself, for the dispensation of local justice, which makes them a different kind of facility from a "state" courthouse, and definitely from a federal courthouse (which houses a federal court). Put them under a parent cat, per Nv8200p. BD2412T16:59, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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Categories named "Farms in …" invite to enter very different things, such as buildings, farmland, animals, technical supplies etc. Most of them can be categorized under “Agriculture in …" as well. So the existence of "Farms …"-categories beneath "Agriculture …"-categories is redundant.
Therefore more specific categories are afforded, worldwide and for the various countries.
If a photo or graphic shows different items, it has to be subsumed to more than one category.
If there is too much of a category tree, people put very similar uploads in very different storeys of it, and somebody has to recategorize them to maintain the survey.
Special aspect:
Especially in densely populated regions of Europe there are lots of farmhouses, that are nowadays inhabited by people of urban profession and not by farmers. Nevertheless these farmhouses are important documents of regional tradition.
this whole Farmhouse thing is a very strange category. It would rather be that one that could be deleted. So IF one would want a rather detailed category like "farmhouses", it would rather be a subcategory of "farms".
Secondly: it makes NO sense whatsoever, to move a picture form a category, and put it in a (wrong) subcategory AND a parent category... [23] it seems that you're missing the entire categorization concept then and something is seriously wrong. Some strange things have been done: a pic with a farmhouse, a barn, the farm grounds, some animals, the farmer is an archetypal image of a farm. So that's where it belong. See also the remarks of user:Royalbroil[24]
Thirdly: a valid category tree like farms should NOT be just emptied and destroyed before putting the deletion template. It will do fine without destroying the work of other people and just tagging it with the request template.
Oppose - This category should remain for pictures that contain numerous structures commonly found on a farm. For example, any picture at least two of the following: a barn, silo, farmhouse, and/or shed belong in this category. Contributors can add optional categories if appropriate. So if a silo is prominent, the contributor has the option of adding the image to the silo category, farm category, or both. This category should be a child of the agriculture category and a parent of any of the previously mentioned categories. Royalbroil01:07, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I think that we all can agree that the word farm is a wide definition that covers many aspects, and I can understand that some people find the definition too wide. In that category, there is possibly space for subcategories such as farmhouses, barns, stables, silo's, the typical gates, entrances, fences, bell towers (angelus) and other architectural details ... etc. But the deeper one categorizes, the more problems one is going to have. If one looks to the pictures of Category:Fiefdoms in Ingelmunster, a very old farm, one can see a potential wide collection, none of them being the actual farmhouse as it is hidden as private territory. In fact, for many old farms, especially in Europe, the most characteristic elements of the farms that remain contain still many elements in which the farmhouse itself is only a small aspect. Today, most farms are only containing the "postcard" type of pictures that shows mainly the farmhouse (which is a debatable term as the older ones contain stables too). As we see a general trend towards more encyclopedic and detailed pictures, the farmhouse category will be more and more contested as being too restrictive. Similarly, in Category:Ten Bogaerde, only one of the four pictures pertains to the farmhouse.
((Interposition:)) Ten Bogaerde is the agricultural estate of an abandoned abbey. So I've to admit, that categorization was wrong. But it shows as well, that it would be wrong to rename and move to category:Farmhouses by country to category:Farms by country. It is the same thing with Category:Manors by country – manors have an other social context than farmhouses, which are part of vernacular architecture.--Ulamm17:19, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As my conclusion: farm covers farmhouses and other items related to farms, farmhouses is too restrictive and cannot have logical subcats such as farmgate, barns, etc.... After all, the farm is the top level geographical item which is known by the people, all the rest are components of it. --Foroa16:35, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If you would have read my request exactly, you would have read my proposal to use regional subcategories of Category:Farm buildings, which ought to be subordinate to both Category:Agriculture and Category:Buildings. "Farm buildings" excludes many "Agriculture"-items which are included by "Farms". So it is more specific. For many countries Category:Farmhouses is necessary as well, according to the amount of interesting farmhouses, there. ((written after the next))--Ulamm17:03, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
On Top of the Category:Farms itself, I've written a guideline how to categorize more specificly. Surely this guideline ought to be accomplished.
Uploading their photos, many users woun't look at the page of the category.
I agree with the opinion above. Some of the "Farms in Portugal" have been moved to "Manors in Portugal". I can not agree with this, since those buildings belong to a "Farm XX" (Quinta de ...). When looking for them the word "Farm" will be used for research. No one calls them "Manor of..." but "Farm of...". Lusitana15:30, 3 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Deadstar. As I too suggested on some discussions page, "farmhouses" would merely be a subcategory of "farms". (It might be a level too deep however, and an unpractical extra level of categorisation... I don't know, maybe it is, maybe it's not) --LimoWreck20:35, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You ought to understand, that the words of different languages aren't congruent. If some people say: "Everybody knows, what a farm is", that is wrong. Everybody has his imagination of "farm", but these imaginations are quite different.
Many contries of Europe had a "liberation of farmers" in nineteensth and the first half of twentieth centrury. In that view farmers were and are rural lower and middle class. The owners of those Portugese "qintas" presented in the commons are upper class, obviously. Farms owned by upper class persons in England are called "manors".
Such questions are the reason, why I urge for a better specification than "farm", which is 90% identcal with agriculture.--Ulamm01:01, 12 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No action. 哦，是吗？(висчвын) 20:39, 18 May 2008 (GMT)
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This category is useless and disturbs the organization of the Commons database. SVG files have a .svg extension, therefore no specific structure is needed to find them. --Juiced lemon11:04, 1 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is probably where the discussion should have been started originally, but I suggest we continue discussion where Juiced lemon initially started it at:
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I cannot find any reference to a British v US use of English policy on Commons, but the equivalent policy on Wikipedia states that UK English should be used for UK related subjects, and it would make sense to apply this here. Train stations is generally considered incorrect, or an Americanism, in the UK, therefore I propose that this directory and all sub-directories should be renamed Category:Railway stations in the United Kingdom, and all relevant sub-directories be similarly renamed. This may lead to a non-conformity with the draft policy Commons:Naming categories, but as the UK category structure already fails to conform to this, and is significantly large enough to be considered a tree in its own right, I do not see this being a problem. – Tivedshambo(talk)13:07, 6 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Be bold. If it's considered incorrect, then change it to the better. The current categories on commons are a big mess. (I've cleaned up some Germany and Saxony related categories, so I know what I'm talking about.) If you could improve the usability a lot by not following the current naming conventions, then it's a big step forward. --32X05:34, 18 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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This category was created by me in November 2005. At this time I wasn't aware of the policy that such category names should be set in plural. I suggest to move this category and its contents to Category:Cross slabs. --AFBorchert15:33, 14 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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As I understand it, "Adoration of the Magi" is a term referring to the specific event (the adoration), which is often depicted in artwork. "Three Wise Men" or "Three Kings" is a broader term which encompasses all we have heard about the three magi, and various depictions, for instance someone dressing up as them. I therefore think Category:Adoration of the Magi should become a subcategory of the other. --Ranveig23:16, 27 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
OK, thanks for that. I had a quick browse through what is in "Three Wise Men" and it seems to be a mix: from the above, would it be a fair guideline to say that if an image just depicts the Wise Men (and the star, and their camels, and their gifts etc.), it would be in the Three Wise Men category, and if it also depicts Jesus, the stable, Mary etc. it would be in the Adoration of the Magi category? -- Deadstar (msg) 08:46, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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To those unfamiliar with the issue: Tsushima is an island which is physically separated by two small canals. Whether it is one island or not was disputed in English Wikipedia. The result was the singular form. --Nanshu10:47, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not familiar with the cfd procedure. How long does it take to move on this request? Can I "move" this category by myself? --Nanshu23:07, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Discussions here can take quite long, because few admins watch this page. Anyway, I've now requested the move. It will be done soon. --rimshottalk11:27, 13 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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I couldn't definitely confirm that lidyt and chert is the same thing. As category names should be in English, I guess it can be deleted, anyway. I'll do it, if there are no objections, soon. --rimshottalk12:59, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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This category should be renamed to "Category:Liancourt Rocks". This group of islets is disputed by Japan and South Korea, and has the Japanese name "Takeshima" and the Korean name "Dokdo." English Wikipedia settled the dispute over the article title by using the English name of French origin, "Liancourt Rocks" after long long edit wars (see w:en:Talk:Liancourt Rocks). --Nanshu10:47, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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delete. Name is obviously a typo AND an inneccessary subdivison. The Mineral Autunite ([Ca(UO2)2(PO4)2·10-12H2O], see Autunit) is a Uranium-bearing mineral named after the french city Autun and has it's own category. The name Autinite seems to be a turkish variation of it (see turkish mineralogy site), but in this case obviously a typo (see original page of only picture in this category, Meta-Autinite from California-Nevada State Line). Second reason is the Meta-tag, denominating a metamorphic rock. Meta-Autunit would be a specific metamorphosed mineral, which is not possible (the mineral would change it's mineralogical properties and become another mineral, with another name). I hope I did really shake you with that description :) If you have problems with it, talk to me --Jo22:06, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Please! Let the people of a country name their regions, cities and rivers! In the previous discussion, I read : “UK English should be used for UK related subjects”. Why French names should not be used for French subjects? ‘Corse’ is the French name of this island, region and people. Wikimedia should respect that. --Fr.Latreille21:59, 2 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wikimedia Commons is a multi-lingual project, with the exception of category naming. Category names should be in UK English (en_UK locale). This does not have anything to do with (a lack of) respect, it has to do with future support for multi-lingual category naming. If the categories are a mess now, it will be a s**tload of work to correct later. Siebrand09:37, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Fixing the mess: categories are in English. 哦，是吗？(висчвын) 18:01, 17 May 2008 (GMT)
Done (BTW - if a category is empty, putting a tag on it like {{speedy|empty, badly named - correct name is Foo}} usually gets it deleted pretty quickly.) --pfctdayelise (????) 02:30, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Keep --Juiced lemon 11:51, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Support The name should be Category:Circles, by convention. --Rimshot 12:59, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Comment I'm more concerned about this record: The longest running CfD request. :) Rocket000(talk) 18:26, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Oppose The current name defines precisely the subject, and there is no need for a longer name, non-consistent with Oriel College. --Juiced lemon 13:49, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Keep No clear request. This category name is a compound name, built from American football. As long as the expression American football is used in Commons, there is no reason to change this expression in any American football-related category. --Juiced lemon 08:55, 14 October 2007 (UTC)--Juiced lemon 08:55, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
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