Kwasura

FAF insignias and flags

Hi, I looked through the categories Category:Air Force flags of Finland and Category:Air force of Finland. In my opinion the most important files have been reverted, although there are still some flags (File:Ilmasotakoulu.svg (cf. File:Ilmasotakoulun lippu.svg) and File:Ilmavoimien Esikunta.svg (cf. File:Suomen ilmavoimien esikunta.svg)) that seem incorrect. There aren't though that many pictures of those flags around, so it is hard to say which one of them is the correct one. Based on the squadron flag and emblems shown on the Air Forces website I would say that the correct ones are files Ilmasotakoulun lippu.svg and Suomen ilmavoimien esikunta.svg, but this is impossible to say without pictures of the actual flags. Then there are also those pins and insignias that FAF flags uploaded. Some of them should just be deleted and others are harder to fix as we don't have the correct ones uploaded to Commons, so they will need to be fixed by hand. Also, I started a deletion request about the file:Ilmavoimat (1918-1945).svg. --Msaynevirta (talk) 12:42, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Flags I am glade you are participating. We can do so much together. There is still a lot to do about the flags. I found the images of all of them, except the one - Ilmavoimien esikunnan lippu, so I can not be sure about the exact shape of the badge in the flag's cantone. Another thing is - I am not based in Finland, so the referencing material which is easily available for you is not available for me. Sotilasheraldiikka - Liput, merkit ja tunnukset by Kari Laurala is the absolute must have. All the answers could be found there. I am eager to get this book. But you can get it from any major library in Finland. I am working at the moment on the improvement of the Ilmasotakoulun lippu. It is difficult file to fix as I am missing some information. 1. I need to find out the close look of the flagpole decoration with the "Mannerheim Cross" and 2. It looks like they introduced the new flag for the Ilmasotakoulu (looks like the old one is being handeled to the Lentosotakoulu). In order to prevent future misunderstandings may I point your attention that there is difference between the flag's canton badge and the formation badge of the finnish Air Force. In the case of the Ilmasotakou (or the Lentosotakoulu now?) the former is being with the straight wings, and the later with the curved wings. --Kwasura (talk) 07:29, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Qualification badges I support your request and agree that the file need to be deleted. Please, feel free to nominate this, this and this too. The rest I will correct manually and we will be done with it. --Kwasura (talk) 07:29, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Emblems Two duplicate files need to be deleted here - this and this, and one corrected (unfortunately I don't know how to work with the animated .gif files). --Kwasura (talk) 07:29, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

I have been viewing this flag changing from afar and I can say that good work has been done at presenting the AF flags finally realistically (especially the Lapland Air Command one). I have a insight in the flag of Ilmasotakoulu (Air Academy?) if you need help on that, I am not totally sure if this information is correct, but I believe that the school previously had the flag which is shown on the president. While at the same time Lentosotakoulu (Flight Warfare School?) had the one with three swastikas. However Lentosotakoulu was disbanded in 2014 and I saw Ilmasotakoulu have their flag instead of their own in the 2015 flag day parade in Oulu so I presume that the flag of "Lentosotakoulu" has been carried over to "Ilmasotakoulu". I don't have anything white on black which would proof this though. The thing which makes the FAF flags problematic is that Ilmasotakoulu was previously named Ilmavoimien viestikoulu (Air Force Signals School) and Lentosotakoulu had Ilmasotakoulu as name until 2005 when the both were renamed to their current forms. Not sure if this is help to the topic. I might help on the flags and other insignia by checking this one book (Puolustusvoimat ennen ja nyt) for Air Force flags (and insignia) and I might even scan some for reference. --Caselius (talk) 21:30, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

That would be very welcome. Every little help. --Kwasura (talk) 04:08, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Please, look at the pdf-file:Ilkka 1.12.2014, Ilmasotakoulun lippu.pdf, which has been loaded (from the Finnish newspaper Ilkka). In the caption of the picture (red-edged) reads in English: The commander of the Training Air Wing, lieutenant colonel Antti Koskela presents the Training Air Wing flag. The flag will not go the tradition museum, but it will become the Air Force Academy flag.

Thus, the right has been taken to download the proper version to the file:Ilmasotakoulu.svg. Because the basic format is the same - basic colour is cobalt blue - , the proper versions has been downloaded also to the files Ilmavoimien Esikunta.svg, Karjalan Lennoston lippu.svg - should be renamed Karjalan Lennosto.svg - , Lapin Lennosto.svg and Satakunnan Lennoston lippu.svg - should be renamed Satakunnan Lennosto.svg.

There are too much very similar flag pictures in the gategory Air Force flags of Finland, so that should be considered for removal the following files:

• Flag of Finland Air force squadrons without squadron emblem.svg (does not exist)
• Lentosotakoulun lippu.jpg (=Lentosotakoulu>Ilmasotakoulu)
• Finnish Flight Defence Academy.svg (=Lentosotakoulu?>Ilmasotakoulu)
• Finnish Flight Force Staff.svg (=Ilmavoimien Esikunta)
• Hämeen Lennoston lippu.svg (=Lapin Lennosto)
• Karelia Flight Fleet.svg (=Karjalan Lennosto)
• Laponia Flight Fleet.svg (=Lapin Lennosto)
• Lentosotakoulun lippu.svg (=Ilmasotakoulu)
• Suomen ilmavoimien esikunnan lippu.svg (=Ilmavoimien Esikunta)

(maybe also the file Lippujuhlan päivän paraati 2014 015 Karjalan lennosto ja ilmasotakoulu.JPG)

--Finnish Air Force (talk) 11:12, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

@Finnish Air Force: Dear Finnish Air Force, we could do a lot together. I, Msaynevirta and Motopark are working hard, improving Finnish Air Force related files and the categories. You could help if you like and we could really use your help. But your unilateral editings, without the consideration, can only lead to no good. They will soon understand that you are one of the sockpuppets of WPK~commonswiki and you will be blocked indefinitely.

Now, about your proposed changes:

1. I have seen your File:Ilkka 1.12.2014, Ilmasotakoulun lippu.pdf before it was deleted, and translated all I could. I understand you point, but I will oppose any possible renaming of this file on the background of one simple truth - flag need to have its original name. Once introduced and given, flag can be inherited in the future by many different ore related units and organizations. This information need to be given in the file's description, but not by renaming the file over and over again. Same thing apply to Hämeen Lennoston lippu.svg. Yes, this Air Command exists no more and its flag is inherited by Lapland's Air Command, but it existed and was the true owner of this flag in the past. Renaming the Lentosotakoulun lippu to Ilmasotakoulun lippu will conflict with this. This file is yet to be created and named File:Ilmasotakoulun lippu.svg as per original name.
2. Flag and insignia files can not be named for example Lentosotakoulu because of Lentosotakoulu what? Flag or badge? Lentosotakoulu is the flying school, not the flag or the badge. Therefore flag will be named Lentosotakoulun lippu and badge - Lentosotakoulun joukko-osastotunnus.
3. I am trying to delete File:Flag of Finland Air force squadrons without squadron emblem.svg, I know that it is nonsense and does not exist. You could help in participating in the conversation.
4. There is no reason to delete File:Lippujuhlan päivän paraati 2014 015 Karjalan lennosto ja ilmasotakoulu.JPG. It is not violating the copyright, is not incorrect or duplicate of the other file.

Sincerely, --Kwasura (talk) 12:23, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

I did some research on Finnish Air Force HQ and according to this book named Puolustusvoimat: Joukko-osastoperinteet (Unit traditions of the FDF) by Finnish war museum (2008) Finnish Air Force HQ doesn't have a flag. It states following on page 256: "Esikunta käyttää kielekkeistä valtiolippua. Tätä valtiolippua käyttävät kaikki ne puolustusvoimien esikunnat ja laitokset, joilla ei ole omaa lippua." It could be roughly translated the following: "The HQ uses the Military flag of Finland (I don't know the correct translation, file can be found here: File:Naval_Ensign_of_Finland.svg). This flag is used by all headquarters and institutions which don't have flag of their own." So I think it is quite sure to say that Finnish Air Force HQ doesn't have flag of it's own. The deal is same for other HQ's like Army and the now disbanded military provinces. The book has quite detailed old flag of the Ilmasotakoulu, I could upload a scan of it sometime later for reference. Also the unit insignia are shown on each unit's page along with flag. Caselius (talk) 08:49, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

This section is resolved and can be archived. If you disagree, replace this template with your comment. --Kwasura (talk) 09:51, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Do not leave harassing messages on my user talk page

Since you have behaved consistently somewhat poorly from beginning to end where the file now named File:Flag of Finland Air force squadrons without squadron emblem.svg is concerned, and I didn't say anything about you on the undeletion request that I didn't previously say on this page above, I'm really not in the mood to listen to any sanctimonious lectures from you. Please do not leave any more harassing messages on my user talk page! AnonMoos (talk) 06:30, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

@AnonMoos: Oh, sorry for "harassing" you. But you seemingly having no problem slandering people. You have to be ashamed of yourself. This is not something that need to be tolerated in the respectful society. With all do respect. Have a nice day. --Kwasura (talk) 12:02, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Finnish Air Force Flags

Hello, In case if you are still needing sources for the missing AF flags. I managed to find a book with the disbanded independent units and here are some scans of the missing flags. Once again the book is from the Finnish Defence Forces and the flags should be allowed to be posted here because it is outside copyright. Kuljetuslentolaivue height 80cm x width 95: [1] Tiedustelulentolaivue (later Tukilentolaivue when merged with the first): [2] Ilmavoimien Viestipataljoona (later Ilmavoimien Viestikoulu) height 80cm x width 95: [3] The book doesn't tell the size of the flag of Tiedustelulentolaivue, however it is quite certain that it is the same size as the other two flags as it was battalion/squadron sized formation ("laivue"). --Caselius (talk) 16:19, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

@Caselius: You are such a good help, my friend! Thank a lot! I will be certainly uploading these flags to commons. Please, help me with the descriptions for these flags (description date decision number author, if you have). Also, if you can find the images of the first four flags (Hame, karjala, Satakunta, Lentosotakoulu) of the same type - it would be great. They will look wonderful together here in Commons. And the badges, of course, i will try to vectorize them. Sincerely, --Kwasura (talk) 23:07, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

No problem. The two books about history of the Finnish Defence Forces should cover it up quite well (there is overall description, usually the size of the flag/insignia, date when taken to user and the author). I will post some scans as soon-as-possible from the Air Force flags/insignia along with the information. Sadly the style of the graphics in the books are not completely the same and some look slightly different when compared with each other color and quality wise. I will also scan some unit insignia from units which didn't have their own flag but still had their own shoulder and sleeve insignia. Main problem with information might be the insignia of Häme Air Command as there is no section for it in the two books but only the history after it was assigned to Lapland and renamed to Lapland Air Command. --Caselius (talk) 19:06, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Insignias vs. badges

Hi Kwasura, you moved a couple of files from Category:Insignia of the British Army to Category:British Army Regimental Badges ([4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9]) which are to my understanding no badges but insignia of military units. As I understand it, badges are worn on an uniform to signify a personal rating, qualification, or an accomplishment. Badges possibly use insignia but this does not make all insignia badges. The insignia in the above cases are symbols or coat of arms of military units. Regards, AFBorchert (talk) 22:56, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

• Hello @AFBorchert: and thank you for your question. What in the USA is called "Shoulder Sleeve Insignia" in the UK is being referred as the "Formation Badge" or the "Tactical Reconnaissance Flash", depending on the size of the military unit. British love "badges". There are books called "Formation Badges 1939-1945", "Badges on the Battledress" and so on. Word "insignia" is seldom used. So, please, don't be alarmed. I just want to improve the category systematically, so one could find what he is looking for easily. Now everything is everywhere and quite messy. It will take some time, but I am sure I can do it. Has to be done anyway. Sincerely, --Kwasura (talk) 23:19, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Insignia categories

Apologies for blitzing some of your categorisations on British army insignia, last night, I should have checked that they were in a hierarchy. Having said that I think you went a stage too far, making categories that, in many cases, will have only one entry. I think the category one step above the named unit or formation is as low as you need go, eg insignia of British army brigade in WW2 or whatever it was, otherwise its a lot of clicks to open a page with at most a few images in it.

Also, was it necessary to delete the other categories? Usedtoknowthat (talk) 16:35, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Abkhazia Army patch

Hello, I would just like to give you a courtesy notification that I have vectorised your scan of the Abkhazia Army patch. The file may be seen here. Seloloving (talk) 02:20, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your work. Kwasura (talk) 02:04, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

A goat for you!

Hi - I'm an OCdt at Sandhurst. A RSDG Staff Sargeant here says that the tactical recognition flag on the RSDG page is upside down. Do you mind rotating this please? It would be a big help.

Bane310 (talk) 19:54, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

@Bane310: Hi. I don't mind at all, but can you provide me with some more information? I was using a poster Tactical Recognition Flashes of the British Army, edition April 2009. Previous edition of this poster (Edition 4) shows exactly the same image , ignoring the proportions of course. Apparently this flash was introduced 23 July 2002 (Decision 3965), but unfortunately MINUTES OF 313th MEETING OF THE ARMY DRESS COMMITTEE HELD AT WELLINGTON BARRACKS ON 23 JULY 02 are lacking images or descriptions. The only official description I have comes from the ARMY DRESS REGULATIONS (ALL RANKS), Part 4 – ROYAL ARMOURED CORPS, REGIMENTAL DRESS REGULATIONS, Ministry of Defence, PS12(A), May 2012.

33 TRF Royal blue with yellow van dyke pointing downwards.

Yet I couldn't find official proportions or colour guide to correct my picture, so I had to use a TRF from my personal collection.

I understand that 2012 information can be obsolete, but this is all I've got. My latest minutes are from the RECORD OF DISCUSSION AND DECISIONS OF THE 359 th MEETING OF THE ARMY DRESS COMMITTEE HELD IN ARMY HQ ANDOVER ON 7 th FEBRUARY 2019 and there is no mention of the possible change of the SCOTS DG TRF.

I would really appreciate your input in my research of the Authorised and Registered Tactical Recognition Flashes. Until then stay safe, keep in touch and thank you for your service. Sincerely, Kwasura (talk) 02:01, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

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