File talk:Ahtum sermon01.png

 

  Please do not upload different versions over maps with which you do not agree. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 12:23, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Empire of Samuil

Here is list of sources that show that usage of word "Macedonian" for empire of Samuil is valid and videly accepted:

• http://www.unet.com.mk/mian/samuil.htm
• http://www.makedonija.info/samuil.html
• http://www.mysticalmacedonia.com/default.aspx?mode=1&id=471&lang=1
• http://www.macedonia.co.uk/client/index1.aspx?page=25
• http://www.soros.org.mk/konkurs/068/Sredvek.htm
• http://www.hic.hr/hrvatski/hid/hid4.htm

PANONIAN (talk) 23:16, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

None of these are sources nor are they accepted by anyone other than pseudo-scientists.

• http://www.unet.com.mk/mian/samuil.htm This hosts websites, its an internet provider
• http://www.makedonija.info/samuil.html Pseudo-scientific site making absurd claims
• http://www.mysticalmacedonia.com/default.aspx?mode=1&id=471&lang=1 Tourist site, copying the above
• http://www.macedonia.co.uk/client/index1.aspx?page=25 no source....absurd claims
• http://www.soros.org.mk/konkurs/068/Sredvek.htm no source....absurd claims
• http://www.hic.hr/hrvatski/hid/hid4.htm no source...info on croatia

Megistias (talk) 23:42, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Is that so? Where is a proof that these sources are not "accepted by anyone" or "accepted only by pseudo-scientists"? Here is an source whose validity cannot be disputed in any way: http://www.skopje.gov.mk/EN/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=0&tabid=46 - that is official web site of the city of Skopje created by the Macedonian government and you can read this sentence there: "Towards the end of the X century, Tsar Samuil (974-1014) created the medieval Macedonian state." So, it is not disputed that official standpoint of historians in the Republic of Macedonia is that empire of Samuil was an Macedonian empire or Macedonian state. So, if you try to say that all historians from the Republic of Macedonia are "pseudo-scientists" you will only discredit yourself showing that your intention here is to shut up everybody who have opinion different from Greek nationalist historians (and such behaviour is not acceptable in Wiki projects or in the civilized Europe of the 21st century). As for previos Internet links that I presented on this page, I presented them only with intention to show that term "Macedonian empire" is used in the sources, so your claims that such sources are "internet provider", "Pseudo-scientific", "Tourist site", "no source", "absurd claims", "info on croatia", etc, etc did not disapproved my basic claim and your claims themselves are only example of your personal opinion without any background. In another words, you have to provide some hard proofs if you want to contest reliability of these web sites. Of course, the reliability of the one created by the Macedonian government you even cannot try to dispute, so I believe that I proved my point that term "Macedonian empire" or "Macedonian state" is used in valid sources and therefore there is no reason for it not to be used in Wiki projects. PANONIAN (talk) 11:11, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Their claims on Macedonian empires are ridiculous,absurd and rejectable by the historical community.There was a macedonian empire of samuil as much as there was an empire of Klingons.Megistias (talk) 11:21, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

http://www.skopje.gov.mk/EN/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=0&tabid=46 this is not a source of anything but propaganda. Get serious.Megistias (talk) 11:22, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Republic of Macedonia is a free democratic country and candidate for European Union and web sites of Macedonian government are reliable as much as those of the government of the United States of America or government of France. Your personal opinion does not change a fact that this source exist. PANONIAN (talk) 18:31, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

The claims about Samuil's State being a "Macedonian Empire" are not proven by the historical facts and sources... Tsar Ivan Vladislav, nephew of Tsar Samuil, himself wrote that he was "БЛЪГАРИНЪ РОДОМЪ"...that means was Bulgarian by birth ( see en:Bitola inscription) This is an undisputable fact for the international historiography and that is why the English version of the maps will be in accordance with it. Best regards --Пакко 12:14, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

I am not going to engage in historical polemics with you, the whole point of all this are sources that could be verified and site of Macedonian government is exactly that. I am not saying that any of the claims about character of the empire of Samuil is right or wrong, but I am saying that opposite points of views have to be respected and point of view about Macedonian character of this empire is valid and legal historical standpoint. PANONIAN (talk) 18:31, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

There is no Macedonian empire nor is Samuil "Macedonian". It was a Bulgarian empire by a Bulgarian ruler. I cant believe you are wasting our time and energy by clinging to Fringe theories that are circus material.Megistias (talk) 13:17, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

All goverment websites from the Republic of macedonia are pushing propaganda and unreal claims.Its that simple.Megistias (talk) 13:52, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

As I said, your personal opinion does not change a fact that sources that mention empire of Samuil as Macedonian exist and that such sources are valid enough to be used in government web site. As for your opinion about Macedonian government, you have right to have such opinions, but political forums are better place where you should present them. Macedonia is generally accepted as free and democratic country and thus your personal opinion about this government is really irrelevant. PANONIAN (talk) 18:31, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

You dont know what a source is and what propaganda is.Macedonian government is a propaganda machine and its claims are trash.Megistias (talk) 11:55, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

That is just your rethorical statement, not a proof for anything. Please post some valid proofs or quotations for your statements. PANONIAN (talk) 18:23, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

See Bitola incsription, or John Skylitzes and his major work is the Synopsis of Histories... --Пакко 18:30, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

I told you already that I do not support any view about character of the empire of Samuil - I am just pointing the fact that there are two different views and nothing more. And by the way, you can clearly see in my map that I first wrote word "Bulgarian" and after that "Macedonian" (not otherwise), so I do respect your point of view, but I respect other point of view as well. PANONIAN (talk) 18:47, 1 February 2010 (UTC)