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Commons:Deletion requests/File:Malay sphere.svg

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This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

File:Malay sphere.svg

edit

This file was initially tagged by Factual Fact Factor as Speedy (speedydelete) and the most recent rationale was: This content need to be deleted because it contain original research and blatantly misleading, the official language of the Republic of Indonesia is Indonesian not Malay. Furthermore, there's no such thing as Malaysian language, the official language of Malaysia is Malay (Malaysian Malay to be precise).
Converted to regular DR to allow for discussion, as needed for such issues. -- Túrelio (talk) 08:03, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Túrelio: And also (to add some more detailed information), the Malay-speaking regions are not that wide, its only spoken in eastern Sumatra and its adjacent regions, these file probably the one that shows the real distribution map of Malay language: , but that file also has an error, some regions are painted as dark blue (especially in Borneo) while in reality Malay language isn't massively spoken, and also the light blue one is kinda incorrect, because in South Sumatra and Bangka Belitung Islands (as well as the Central Thailand) the language spoken there isn't Malay. Furthermore, there's a little dot of island of Philippines, the language spoken there is Tausug not Malay, and also the little dot in the Indian Ocean (southwest of Sumatra island) the language spoken there is belonging to Betawi language not Malay, the locals called it Bhase Betawi Pulu Kokos (literally means "the Betawi language of Cocos Islands"). (Factual Fact Factor (talk) 08:15, 29 August 2022 (UTC))[reply]
  •  Keep Original research is not a valid reason for deletion. If there are factual inaccuracies with this map, then it can always be adjusted, but deletion is not the solution. Back to OP's original reason for deletion, this one's kind of a hard one. There are many dialects spoken in rural areas that significantly differ from standard Malay spoken in KL and the Malay taught in all Malay public schools – it's quite difficult to factor that in on a map, but I'll leave that to someone who knows more about Malay than I do. --SHB2000 (talk) 09:13, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    "There are many dialects spoken in rural area", yea but where rural areas? the main problem here is these Kwamikagami user painted the whole Indonesia as if it was spoken all over Indonesia. Let me tell you somethinh, the Malay language is an ethnic language ONLY SPOKEN (and practiced) by the Malay ethnic group community, with the regions of Riau and Riau Islands being the main one where these language spoken. Other than that, Malay language isn't spoken, there are over 1,300 ethnic groups in Indonesia who speak their own respective ethnic languages, claiming it all as "Malay" is a blatant idiotic and ignorant idea. These claim made by Malaysians has become a never ending issue, even the politicians of Indonesia have to speak up about this ridiculous claim, and how dare it is normalized in Wikimedia? I hope Wikimedia could provide more non-biased contents and non POV-pushing contents. I hope my request to build more friendly environment in Wikimedia or Wikipedia community could be considered or seen as a constructive and collaborative effort to mediate the upcoming hatred against Malaysians that gonna rise after this. (Factual Fact Factor (talk) 11:08, 29 August 2022 (UTC))[reply]
    @Factual Fact Factor: Right, but you've completely missed my first point and that does not change my argument nor opinion. I suggest you read COM:INUSE and COM:SCOPE – does it fall into one of these two categories? Yes it does – it does the job perfectly fine on various Wikimedia projects. I suggest you cease your personal attacks because you're really not "build[ing a] more friendly environment" – you're doing the opposite. SHB2000 (talk) 10:40, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Keep There appears to be confusion as to what this is a map of. The PNG map is where Malay is a native language, and the SVG map is where it's an official language. Cf. similar maps for Russian, English, French, Urdu ('Hindi') etc. and you'll see similar differences. FFF, if you have any evidence of errors on the SVG map, I'd be happy to see them.
As for what appears to be the source of this objection, of course Indonesian is Malay. It's a Malay standard based on the same Malacca-Johor dialect that Malaysian Malay is. The Malaysian and Indonesian standards are closer than the various Malay dialects of Malaya are to each other, and no-one has a problem calling most of them "Malay". Much more similar than the various varieties of "Malay" that are scattered across Indonesia. The situation for Malay proper is quite similar to Serbian and Croatian being a single language, or MSHindi and Urdu. Claiming that Indonesian is not Malay is like saying that "American" is not English. True, the name in Indonesia is "Indonesian", but that's a legal fiction, like calling Tagalog "Filipino". (A judge finally had to rule that Tagalog and Filipino were the same language and that you couldn't get a court-appointed translator if you spoke Tagalog.) A change in name is not a change in language.
As for what should be dark blue and what light on the PNG map, that's a more difficult question. It's like trying to decide whether Scots is English. Indeed, the dark blue in Sarawak would appear to be Iban, which IMO at best should be light blue and perhaps not on the map at all. But this thread isn't about that map.
Minor point: Malaysia has vacillated on whether its official language is "Malay" or "Malaysian". When they called it "Malaysian", it was indeed the "Malaysian language". But FFF is correct, "Malaysian" is not a distinct language -- any more than Indonesian is. Anyone who's learned the language in one country and then used it in the other can attest to that. Kwamikagami (talk) 09:19, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
But here is the thing, the Malay language isn't even the official language of Indonesia, how dare you to painted the whole Indonesian region as blue as if it was even spoken by Indonesians other than Malay ethnic group? Are y'all Malaysians really that desperate to claim Indonesian population as the Malay speakers so it gonna appeared as 300 million? meanwhile the 290 million itself is the Indonesian population, duh. Malay language serves as one of recognized minority language in Indonesia not the official national language, did you even understand the point right here? And btw Indonesia IS NOT Malay language, the Malay language itself originated from Indonesia but it isn't "Indonesian language" itself. And your statement "no-one has a problem calling most of them "Malay"" is clearly self-proclaimed and clueless, try to come to Indonesia and say that word to their face "Indonesian is Malay!" and let's see if you gonna still alive or not, because fyi your lunatic claim is not gonna survive in real life. The REAL MALAY people in Sumatra didn't even claim Indonesian language as Malay and how dare you a copypaste group of so-called 'Malay Malaysians' claim it as Malay? are you even logically sober? Furthermore, Indonesian having similarity doesn't mean the same, all languages under the Austronesian family bear similar features, and that's what you're talking about when you compared it to European languages. And btw no Filipinos called their language as "Filipino", it's Tagalog, the terminology of "Filipino" itself first appeared on Wikipedia started by lunatic user like you. And one last thing, Malaysian goverment trying so hard to copy how Indonesia governed themselves but y'all forget in the constitution itself the official language of Malaysia is "Malay language" not lunatic manmade so-called "mAlAySiAn LaNgUagE". Plus, I'm the native speaker of Indonesian, you might fool those foreigners, but no.. you can't fool me, I understood these matter deep down to my bone. (Factual Fact Factor (talk) 11:24, 29 August 2022 (UTC))[reply]
So, your argument is that you're a nationalist bigot?
Indonesia and Malaysia even coordinate on the orthography of their shared official language. As you well know. Kwamikagami (talk) 02:23, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Delete The map created by Kwamikagami is blatantly lunatic, POV-pushing, and also appears to be redundant (per COM:Redundant) since the existing file of File:Idioma malayo.png to represent the so-called "Malay sphere" already exist. (Factual Fact Factor (talk) 11:46, 29 August 2022 (UTC))[reply]
    You're being ridiculous. That map covers a different topic, as you're obviously aware. You're arguing in bad faith to push your own agenda. Kwamikagami (talk) 02:21, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Keep It looks okay to me. I mean, it's not perfect, considering that it relies on national borders, but I guess that was the point (only depicting official recognition?). A map of where Malay (whether it is Malay proper or a Malayic variety) is commonly spoken would include all of Malaysia, Indonesia, but also East Timor, some areas of Papua New Guinea close to the Indonesian border etc. Indeed, the map can be considered inaccurate, but only if you equate Malay with the language of ethnic Malays or Malaysia, overlooking its usage as a lingua franca (Indonesian, Manado Malay, Ambonese Malay...). All things considered, I think it's a decent depiction of the countries where Malay has had a significant amount of influence, as an official or trade language. There's no POV, it's all neutral linguistic facts. Jangan malu-maluin Indonesia dong... Megfãs (talk) 13:49, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    There is difference between "Malay" and "Malayic", both term didn't work synonymously. English is Germanic, so according to your idiotic statement English could be reckleclessly included in the "German sphere"? the answer is no, because English is seperate language different to German eventhough some similarity is still noticable. The idiotic claim of "Malay" for all languages of Indonesia is a nonsense and baseless, no people in Papua nor in Timor Island considered their daily language as "Malay", they considered it as the dialect of Indonesian. I've been there and socially mingled not just like y'all some lunatic editor. And of course it is bias and POV-pushing since every Indonesians claimed as "Malay" in mf Malaysial. Plus, I know who you are and what's your motivation, don't act like it's our first time talking about your nonsense "Malayness", the largest ethnic group of Indonesia is Javanese and it's even the largest in Southeast Asia yet no Javanese claimed another ethnic groups as "Javanese", you have to know that y'all are not that influential, stop claiming everything as "Malay", duh.. the REAL MALAY in eastern Sumatra didn't even have that kind of idiotic behavior. (Factual Fact Factor (talk) 14:15, 29 August 2022 (UTC))[reply]
    Yes, that's a valid point. Not all of Malayic is Malay proper, but you have to realize that the distinction isn't always made, and there definitely is a Malay sphere, where the Malay language (in its various varieties) has functioned as a lingua franca for centuries. Iban is obviously a distinct language from Malay, and I'd argue that Minangkabau is separate too, but Indonesian is essentially the same thing as Malay proper, so Indonesia still pretty much counts as a Malay-speaking region.
    BTW, varieties like Manado Malay or Ternate Malay aren't really "Indonesian", the national language. Those are contact varieties of Malay (or perhaps Malay-based creoles), and some people in places like North Maluku refer to them as "bahasa melayu" too. They developed independently of what you call Indonesian and have only recently begun to coexist with it. Try not to be so narrow-minded. Malay is not confined to the Malay ethnic group. Megfãs (talk) 15:25, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    "the distinction isn't always made" is really the absolute idiot statement that I encountered today. It means you tryna said the Dutch language, the French language, and English language simply be clumped under the definition of "German language" because it is all Germanic? And btw the lingua franca of Indonesia is fluctuative and can't be simply clumped it all belongs to a single language, Malay influence itself never reached the Central or even as far as Eastern Indonesia, the widest Malay influence is only including the Sumatra island and its adjacent regions during the Srivijaya empire, but when the empire fell, the influence also reduced and replaced by another influence. Indonesian and Malay aren't the languages that sits together under your lunatic claim "Malay", it is seperate and distinct language, if these language is the same then as a native speaker of Indonesian I wouldn't have to waste my time to learn Malay language, but the reality is I can't even understand anything uttered by Malay speakers during my stay in Malay-predominant region of Indonesia and Malaysia. And btw no people of Manado and Ternate considered their language as "Malay", it's their own variety of Indonesian, and I'm not making these things up, you can go to each region and ask the locals, no one gonna refers it as "Malay" simply because it is not, they referred their 'daily/social language' as the dialect of Indonesian instead of Malay, don't speak the things that you've never experienced before, because being lunatic is easy, but being true observer takes time to do so. And furthermore, the Malay language is indeed attached exclusively to Malay people only, other ethnic groups speak their own language that are not even closely related to Malay. And btw your "try not to be so narrow-minded" statement really suited you, please don't be so narrow-minded by claiming everything as "Malay", the world isn't revolved around you only, and the world isn't contained by Malays only. (Factual Fact Factor (talk) 16:18, 29 August 2022 (UTC))[reply]
    Indeed, the world isn't dominated by those "Malays" trying to claim everything "Indonesian" as "Malay", yet you insist on seeing them everyhwere. Please remember. Megfãs (talk) 16:47, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Seeing them everywhere? where? where? tell me where? and remember what bitch? stop being delutional, no Papuans nor people of Manado and Ternate claimed their daily/social language as Malay, its their way of speaking Indonesian language, and furthermore they have their own native languages, Papuan languages and Minahasan languages are far from so-called "Malay", don't be such an idiot (eventhough it seems you are). (Factual Fact Factor (talk) 16:54, 29 August 2022 (UTC))[reply]
  •  Keep In wide use. I'd suggest changing the file description to "Countries where Malay and/or Indonesian is spoken", and a filename change for greater neutrality could also be discussed on the file's talk page, but you can't deny that Bahasa Indonesia is historically derived from Bahasa Melayu as used in pasar and trade and is largely mutually comprehensible with Malay - arguments you can't make in relation to German and English. I'd further point you to the following Wikipedia article: w:A language is a dialect with an army and navy. Which is why the Malay spoken in Palembang is considered "the purest Indonesian" by some people, whereas all the Han languages in China are considered "dialects." -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:31, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Nope, it's still redundant and not effective as the file of File:Idioma malayo.png already represent 'kinda' exact "sphere" of Malay language in real life. I mean, if you wanna create anything related about Malay language just do it no one gonna complain about it as long as it really based on factual/real data and situation, don't claim another languages, regions, or even any ethnicities to fall under the idiotic claim of "Malay" due to idiotic so-called political Ketuanan Melayu ("Malay Supremacy") in Malaysia. The definition of "Malay" in Malaysia itself is so bias and POV-pushing, every Muslims can be claimed as so-called "Malay Malaysians" including those who came from Middle Eastern, it really irked me (and of course all Indonesians) that these kind of behavior is normalized here. And no, Indonesian language isn't derived from Malay, historically speaking it's derived from the Dutch and Javanese, and if you noticed the word "bahasa" as well as "melayu" itself is Javanese in origin, but ofc your Malaysial government never gonna admit that historical fact. And btw, the language spoken in Palembang isn't even Malay, it's the Palembang language, please STOP with these mf thief behavior claiming everything as Malay, the Palembang language itself is way more closer to Javanese rather than Malay, I'm one of the speaker of these language and I've learnt these language easily because I understood Javanese in prior, but ofc the one you saw on Wikipedia will stated it as "Malay" and even put all wrong sentence examples of Palembang language, I'm wondering why Malaysians are obsessed with Indonesian-related things, claim it as "Malay", and even tryna control what belongs to our rights? So long story short, nope.. the Palembang language also isn't Malay nor it's similar to Indonesian, thus your "Malay spoken in Palembang is purest Indonesian" statement is so idiotic, clueless and so palatao, I bet you know what that means, right?. Furthermore, The languages of Indonesia can't be compared to Chinese languages, because it's not apple-to-apple comparison, the Chinese people are basically having the same ancestor from the same landmass, that's why their physical features appeared to be similar, and that explains why they be speaking dialects (which is varieties derived from a language), meanwhile on the other hand the people of Indonesia are so diverse and different to each other genitically divided by its respective islands, that's why people from certain region didn't have similar physical feature because we simply aren't descended from the same ancestor, thus being said Indonesians are also linguistically diverse, even the neighbouring ethnic groups can't understand each other language. Take example the Palembang language in southeastern Sumatra can't be understood by the Lampung language speakers coming from its adjacent region, it simply because they're different people with different language and different ancestor. (Factual Fact Factor (talk) 15:11, 29 August 2022 (UTC))[reply]
  • It's already been explained how the other file is not synonymous with this one. Genetics are completely irrelevant to language, the suggestion that Indonesian is derived from the borrow words from Dutch and Javanese and not from Pasar Malay is absurd, and none of the rest of your remarks really bear discussion in a deletion request thread. Also, buster, I'm an American who spent 2 years living in a Malay kampung, not a Malay nationalist, and I don't know what "palatao" means. Do you know what "dok mboh" means? That's Bahasa Terengganu. Wanna claim that Bahasa Terengganu is not a dialect of Malay? Good luck. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:20, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • And you need to stop calling everyone else's points "idiotic," or it will become necessary to report your bad behavior on the Administrators' noticeboard for a warning and possible suspension, mu orang kurang ajar! -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:23, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Absurd? are you sure? It has more evidence more than just your lunatic claim, and btw the Malay language is originated from Sumatra, the Malay people didn't even claim or considered the Indonesian language as "Malay", so how tf you have guts to claim it as "Malay"? who are you to decide? it's our language and we know what we're talking about. And also I bring the genetics and all that because you bring "Chinese" as comparison meanwhile Chinese and Indonesian aren't an apple-to-apple comparison, and btw languages is indeed formed by the people which in wider sense talking about its genetic origin, do you think English spoken in Australia because the Aboriginals speak it? nope, the English spoken there because British people migrated there, so genetic and language is somehow inseparable matter. And also, there is no such thing as bahasa Terengganu which simply means the "Terengganu language", the local never claim it as seperate language, it's simply the dialect of Malay spoken in Thailand, the regions of Kelantan-Terengganu-Kedah-Perlis, etc were part of Thailand's region before the British give it to Malaysia via the Anglo-Siamese Treaty in 1909 (or 1919 I don't quite remember btw) but ofc your Malaysial government never taught you about that, everything is ultimately "Malay Malaysians" right? not giveaway from British right? Mek Mulung, Menora, Khao Yam (Nasi Kerabu), etc are also "Malay" right? hahahaha IDIOT, those are Thailand's things not Malaysian nor "Malay". And also it's worth to mention "idiotic" since it's the reality of it, it such an idiotic opinion to claim everything as so-called "Malay", duh. And you all also kurang ajar to claim every Indonesian things as "Malay", if you feel offended then I'm more offended by y'all idiotic claim and so-called Malay Supremacy. Ew, really that desperate and obsessed with Indonesian things, huh? (Factual Fact Factor (talk) 15:48, 29 August 2022 (UTC))[reply]
  •  Keep Frankly, this is entire nomination is just mindboggling. This map is clearly about where the standardized dialects of the Malay language have official status, and it is quite clear in that. The PNG presented as an alternative is mapping a completely different phenomenon, and appears to draw a distinction between Indonesian and Malay, even though they are mutually intelligible and standard Indonesian is referred to as "bahasa Melayu" in areas where other dialects are more prominent. Now there may be good reasons for drawing a distinction between Indonesian Malay and other forms, but this map is completely forthcoming on not making that distinction. It would be a supreme act of POV pushing to enforce such a requirement and entertain a deletion request on that basis. VanIsaac (en.wiki) 19:08, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    but Indonesian isn't "standardized dialect of Malay", do not rely your knowledge about these language based on what you read on Wikipedia, several Indonesian users has already try to fix the article yet Malaysians (who obviously obsessed to claim Indonesian as "Malay") are trying so hard to make disruptive edits yet no actions given to their accounts, you could even see in these discussion talk page full of Malaysian who are trying so hard to claim Indonesian as Malay as if it was even their language at the first place. And let me tell you something, the Standard Malay is derived from Indonesian, not the other way around, you can even search on Google "who compiled Kamus Dewan" and you could see Indonesian scholar was the one who made it, he took Indonesian dictionary as a base of so-called "Standard Malay" for both Malaysia and Singapore, these information even still maintained in the National Library of Singapore. And nope, no Indonesians considered their language as "Malay" unless for the real Malay language spoken in eastern Sumatra (Riau) and its adjacent islands (Riau Islands), these map right here is actually the one that shows the real distribution of Malay language -> File:Idioma malayo.png but it need to be fixed as well since some regions painted blue are actually not a Malay-speaking region. Thus, my deletion request is heavily focused on the redundancy file for so-called "Malay sphere" map (per COM:REDUNDANT) since these 'kinda' correct file (File:Idioma malayo.png) already exist and also the map made by Kwamikagami is baseless and more like lunatic, the one that should be considered as "supreme act of POV" is her/his map, not me the one who tryna fixed the misleading information. Indonesian language isn't Malay language, and the official language of Indonesia is Indonesian not Malay language. Would you consider English as "German" just because English is Germanic? both English language and German language is different eventhough it is similar, if you consider Indonesian as dialect then all languages such as English, Dutch, etc should be treated the same way, it should be named "German sphere" and German is the official language of England, also please painted the whole England as German language-based country. And anyways, I see that you are also make some contributions about linguistic right? then why you can't understand that similar doesn't mean the same? have you heard of 'sister language' before? the sister language of Indonesian is Malay, but it doesn't mean Indonesian itself is Malay, just like how German is sister language of English. (Factual Fact Factor (talk) 20:17, 29 August 2022 (UTC))[reply]
  •  Delete or rename, the current name is clearly misleading. Guido den Broeder (talk) 20:52, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I wouldn't have a problem moving it to "Malay/Indonesian sphere" or some such. But to delete a file because of a quibble over the name is not supported by Commons guidelines. Kwamikagami (talk) 02:31, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Exactly what Kwamikagami mentioned. I suggest you read COM:SCOPE and COM:INUSE before !voting keep or delete. Commons is not Wikipedia for everything to not be misleading. --SHB2000 (talk) 10:43, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I suggest that the both of you read the policy instead of bullying the opposition. Nowhere does it say that misleading names are fine and dandy, or that files with misleading names are by definition still educational. It does say that only legitimate use counts and that advertising and self-promotion are typical examples of information that is not educational. Guido den Broeder (talk) 11:47, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    How is it misleading though? I don't think it's even controversial. Megfãs (talk) 18:58, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @Guido den Broeder: I can't speak on behalf of Kwamikagami, but I'm not "bullying" the opposition; I'm simply stating the policy. COM:INUSE states that if it's in use on another Wikimedia project, then it's useful. Discounting all Wikipedias, it's used on incubator:Wy/id/Buku frase Melayu, voy:en:Malay phrasebook and n:ru:Категория:Малайский язык where this file is clearly superior to File:Idioma malayo.png. Maybe you should be the one to reread the policy. SHB2000 (talk) 09:15, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • [Deleted 2nd vote icon under blocked sock account] Misleading and Non-neutral Point of View. According to the Official 1945 Constitutional Law of the Republic of Indonesia, the official language of Indonesia is Indonesian not Malay.
Original text:
Bahasa Negara ialah Bahasa Indonesia

Translation: The national language is Indonesian

[
Pasal 36 dari Bab XV Bendera, Bahasa, dan Lambang Negara, Serta Lagu Kebangsaan
(Article 36 of Chapter XV: the Flag, Language and Emblem of the Country, and the National Anthem)] – extracted via The Official House of Representatives of the Republic of Indonesia

It is also clearly defined since 1928 through the Sumpah Pemuda (Youth Pledge/Declaration) that the language spoken by Indonesians is Indonesian not Malay, these Youth Pledge/Deflaration is intended to refuted the outsiders' claim(?) that clumped all Indonesians and its Indonesian language as 'Malay':

Original text:

  1. Kami Putra dan Putri Indonesia, Mengaku Bertumpah Darah Yang Satu, Tanah Indonesia
  2. Kami Putra dan Putri Indonesia, Mengaku Berbangsa Yang Satu, Bangsa Indonesia
  3. Kami Putra dan Putri Indonesia, Menjunjung Bahasa Persatuan, Bahasa Indonesia

Translation:

  1. We, the Sons and Daughters of Indonesia, Acknowledge Our One Motherland, the Land of Indonesia
  2. We, the Sons and Daughters of Indonesia, Acknowledge Our One Nation, the Nation of Indonesia
  3. We, the Sons and Daughters of Indonesia, Uphold Our Unity Language, the Indonesian language
[
Teks Sumpah Pemuda 1928
 (The 1928 Youth Pledge/Declaration Text)] – extracted via The Official Governmental Museum Sumpah Pemuda (Youth Pledge/Declaratiin Museum)
(Serepinx (talk) 00:46, 30 August 2022 (UTC))[reply]
A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. Some people in the US say they speak "American". It doesn't follow that they don't speak English.
You forgot the part where Indonesia and Malaysia coordinate on the orthography of their shared language. Kwamikagami (talk) 02:29, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
But Indonesian isn't Malay, I think another user already pointed out that point, English is Germanic so it's okay to include English as "German sphere"? German and Germanic is two different thing, in the US they also didn't have any law about official language, no Americans called their language as "American" as you said. And about the orthography, it was Malaysia who requested it from Indonesia to standardized their language, the one who created "Standard Malay" is Indonesian scholar who took Standard Indonesian as the basis, learn more about it. Standard Malay derived from Indonesian but it's not the other way around, it still distinct language, just like how English and German language works where Standard English took German elements as their basis. (Serepinx (talk) 11:01, 30 August 2022 (UTC))[reply]
The International Standards Organization disagrees. Indonesian and Malay are pretty unambiguously dialects of a common language. Just like Tajiki and Moroccan are both dialects of Arabic. Just like Eastern and Western Yiddish, etc. etc. etc...
It does not matter whether it's politics and religion or simple geographic distance. No matter whether people call the language they speak by a different name, if two people can speak and/or write to each other, they share a language. And since the Indonesian government promulgated the Ejaan Yang Disempurnakan in 1972, Rumi has been about as mutually intelligible as the spoken dialects. VanIsaac (en.wiki) 17:34, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Vanisaac: The International Standard Organization didn't even include any Indonesian representatives to decide that false grouping. You can even see on the code change document, the one who clumped it under that group is from Kuala Lumpur (Malaysia), so it's obvious POV pushing linguistic group, that "msa" even including the Banjarese language which is an obvious part of Dayak languages. The original ISO of Indonesian is "id" and that's the correct and commonly used one, even the Indonesian Wikipedia is id.wikipedia not ind.wikipedia, "ind" is obviously not correct. And comparing Indonesian to the dialects of Arabic isn't correct since Indonesian is a language not dialect. The Indonesian and Malay isn't even mutually intelligible, the Indonesian speakers are hardly understand the Malay language, and it has different linguistic typology order system, Indonesian use all  subject–object–verb, object–subject–verb, verb–subject–object, or verb–object–subject order meanwhile Malay use a single subject–verb–object. The Latin script used in Indonesian and Malay also different, for instance, in Indonesian to form the word with the sound of /baː-/ and /ʔaː/ it just need to be written as "ba-" and "ka-" meanwhile in Malay it has to be "bha-" and "kha-", the similar words such as "kabar" (in Indonesian) and "khabar" (in Malay) shows similar sounding but different spelling or even meaning, in Indonesian it means news/information meanwhile in Malay it means newspaper. (Fraw Món (talk) 02:07, 31 August 2022 (UTC))[reply]
You obviously don't speak Malay. Khabar means "news", as in the phrase "Apa khabar?", which I would think you'd be familiar with if you're Indonesian. "Suratkhabar" means "newspaper." -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:44, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
British English spells it "colour", while American English spells "color". And "biscuit" in British English means "cookie" in American English. There are distinctions in the subjunctive mood, article usage, and word order in the imperative between dialects of English, and even just within "American" English, there are huge differences of vocabulary, grammar, and usage. These kinds of slight variations in spelling, usage, and nuance of meaning is exactly what makes a dialect continuum within a language. What you've demonstrated above is almost the definition of dialects of a common language.
But even if everything you are pushing were all true, the legend of the map explicitly calls it "Indonesian/Malay", meaning all of the things you've tried to say about this image are just false. The map is still completely correct even if you defer to politicians rather than linguists. Especially when you so badly misunderstand the process that goes into these ISO standards - I've had to work proposals through both ISO 15924 and ISO 10646 with zero religious, ethnic, or other political considerations, and know just how thoroughly and completely they verify and check everything. Frankly the flipancy and vileness of your characterization of those standards and the people that do the work of maintaining them is pretty disgusting. VanIsaac (en.wiki) 03:09, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Improvisation should be done in that file of File:Idioma malayo.png, not creating another new file, the fact that you called it "improve" yet these new generated file exist really shows my point that this file is redundant and worth to be deleted, and also it is worth noting that these file has multiple issues (naming, regions, description, status, POV, etc.) as what another users already explained above. The files of File:Idioma malayo.png and File:Austronesian including Malay and various random languages.svg have been used before these POV pushing file exist, you can checked the creation date for both original files. (Fraw Món (talk) 11:56, 30 August 2022 (UTC))[reply]
Anyone can see that the three files are not the same. If you want to argue about ways to change the file's description or name so as to improve it, do so on the file's talk page, but don't try to have it deleted. If, on the other hand, you merely want the file removed from a Wikipedia article, argue on the Wikipedia article's talk page. We are using it in the Malay phrasebook on Wikivoyage. Respect that and don't try to have it removed from the repository of images for all Wikimedia sites. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:57, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Comment This isn't entirely relevant to the topic at hand but I think should bring to your attention that Factual Fact Factor (using another profile) inserted an unnoticed language hoax on idwiki, saying that Bacan Malay belongs to the "West Papuan branch" of the "Nusantara language family". The former is an unrelated language family, while the latter doesn't even exist. Seeing that encouraged me to peruse what we have available on the language. It appears that Bacan is an aberrant Malayic variety, definitely not a "West Papuan" language, and not a "Nusantara" language. To put it more bluntly, I think the person that has tagged this file has a nationalist hoax agenda going on in their mind (related to the anti-Malay sentiment in Indonesia), and any of their ideas should be taken with a grain of salt, especially considering that they've used other accounts before (which is not disallowed, but they're apparently an LTA). I don't know what the procedure is for such cases, but since they've used multiple accounts, and abusively so, there may be more to come, with other figments of imagination, so I thought I'd warn the commenters here. Megfãs (talk) 19:24, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Nusantara simply denotes the archipel. Bacan Malay seems to be quite old and different, so how it should be classified more narrowly is unclear. Their preference may be mistaken but doesn't come across as a hoax; according to Dutch literature there has been a lot of interaction with West-Papuan languages. However, the account has been blocked, so they can't respond to your comment and as you say, it's not relevant to the topic at hand. One can be right about one thing and wrong about another. Guido den Broeder (talk) 21:43, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Guido den Broeder: Well after a lil crosscheck, I found that the Bacan language isn't a hoax, the official Indonesian government have website called Peta Bahasa literally means "language mapping" to record all information related to languages of Indonesia, and it appears that Bacan language is a real language that aren't even related to Malay, and it is actually related to West Papuan languages due to long historical contact as what you said, you can check it by yourself in these websites: Bacan language in Peta Bahasa website and Bacan language in PDF file of Language Mapping in Northern Maluku – National Linguistic Laboratory, the official Indonesian dictionary also have description about Bacan being the language spoken by the Bacan ethnic group: Bacan in Indonesian Dictionary. So the one that obviously "language hoax" is what written on Wikipedia. Interestingly enough, I also I found that "Nusantara languages" actually also the real thing, I found talen van Noesantara or Noesantara talen at some Dutch literature, and these one specifically have review on East Nusantara languages: East Nusantara languages in University of Leiden publication. I noticed that almost all languages with Indonesian diaspora that can be found in Malaysia are purposedly misleaded as "Malay" by Malaysians vandals (and I'm pretty sure Megfãs is one of them since I saw that he/she is the one who redirected the "Bacan language" to "Bacan Malay language" recklessly). (Fraw Món (talk) 22:48, 30 August 2022 (UTC))[reply]
The language is real, but the classification you inserted was an obvious hoax, and you keep trying to achieve the same thing here, but with Indonesian this time, availing yourself of your multiple accounts. Bacan is definitely a Malayic variety based on what we know about it, and even your pdf shows that its basic vocabulary is Malayic. I don't think it discusses its classification anywhere, though. James T. Collins has done some research on it, so you may want to familiarize yourself with that.
My point is: none of your linguistic opinions are backed up by facts or can be corroborated by the literature. There's no Nusantara language family (which almost seems like common knowledge), and the sources you've mentioned probably use it as a geographical term (yes, it "simply denotes the archipelago", not a genetic group). "East Nusantara" is another geography-based term, referring to an area of language convergence (aka Sprachbund). Not a language family (have you even read the publication?). Indonesian isn't derived from Javanese and Dutch, it's another Malayic variety, or rather a form of Malay proper, which isn't even controversial (any literature should help clear this up). The term "Filipino" wasn't made up by Wikipedians (??), and it has wide currency elsewhere. People in Manado do speak Manado Malay, and people in Ternate do speak North Moluccan Malay. Those aren't "Indonesian dialects", or at least they weren't historically derived from what you call Indonesian. Essentially everything you're trying to push here is a POV-marred nationalist version of reality, based on the anti-Malay sentiment that isn't extremely rare in Indonesia. People have proven you wrong, yet you keep attacking others, accusing them of being "Malaysian vandals", and insist that the evil Malays are trying to claim everything Indonesian as "Malay". Again, try to be more receptive to other people's ideas, actual linguistic facts (which are aplenty on wiki and in other places), and read up on the topic if you're genuinely clueless (which I doubt is the case). Megfãs (talk) 23:54, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I inserted? I didn't even know what Bacan language is until you bring this up right below my comment. And the fact that you said "you have no backup" and accusing someone else "creating hoax" while you have no idea about that language is so silly because apparently I can bring all the correct sources for those language you vandalized on Wikipedia. The Bacan language isn't Malay nor Malayic, it is listed as one of the languages in Indonesia, you can check from the official website of linguistic mapping of Indonesia right here: Search "Bacan" in National Laboratory and you can clearly see Bacan is an individual distinct language not related to Malay. And even being in "Malayic" family, it doesn't have to be redirected to "Bacan Malay", because English is Germanic but no linguist named it as "English German". You have to understand what German and Germanic really means, as well as what Malay and Malayic means. And your "Indonesian isn't derived from Javanese and Dutch" statement is clueless and baseless, the term "bahasa Indonesia" itself made up from Javanese and Dutch respectively, the word bahasa taken from Old Javanese ꦨꦰ (bʰaṣa) which derived from Sanskrit भाषा (bhāṣā) and the word Indonesia originally taken from Dutch Indisch and subsequently became Indonesia of Greek origin Ινδο (indo) νησιά (nisia). If you said Indonesian is actually derived from Malay, I dare you to mention a single Malay original word. And nope, the Manado people aren't speaking Manado Malay, they speak Minahasan languages and Ternate people speak Ternate language, all correct information about languages spoken in Indonesia is officially recorded by the linguistic data of the Republic Indonesia, you might fool people by your vandal edits on Wikipedia, but you can't change the official data provided by the government. Again, try to be rationale and don't talk about the things you had no idea about, you are not a linguist, nor part of the community you are referring to. (Fraw Món (talk) 00:18, 31 August 2022 (UTC))[reply]
It can be termed as either "Bacan" or "Bacan Malay" (James T. Collins uses both of these in his research). That's not really pertinent though. "If you said Indonesian is actually derived from Malay, I dare you to mention a single Malay original word." - what? Bro, Indonesian is derived from Malay. I could bring up some literature, but that almost seems absurd. These facts are taught in Indonesian schools and aren't even remotely controversial. It's like proving that Hungary isn't part of China. You're literally making things up. As for Manado Malay and North Moluccan Malay, yes, these are the main languages of North Sulawesi and North Maluku, respectively. Malayic too.
No need to respond anymore. Megfãs (talk) 00:26, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, James T. Collins is foreigner, he is not Bacanese nor Indonesian, not even born or even lived in Bacan-speaking regions. Foreigners simply just assume things based on their limited knowledge over the indigenous. The foreigners also classified the indigenous of America as "Indian" but it doesn't mean they are Indian and they didn't speaking Indian languages, no native called themselves as Indian nor they speak Indian language or Indianic languages variety. No Bacanese referred themselves as "Malay" nor they speak the "Malay" language or even the "Malayic" variety of it. And "Bro, Indonesian is derived from Malay" is so baseless and misleading, I dare you to even mention the a single original Malay word, why you can't answer? you said Indonesian derived from Malay right? now I dare you to mention words of Malay origin, and furthermore how dare you to assume my gender. And nope, there's no language called "North Maluku Malay", no natives will recognize that terminology or even heard of it. Surprisingly just like what another "XXX Malay" languages, it is only appeared or started in Wikipedia, there is no official data from the government of Indoneaia about that language. So, please be rational and quit fantasizing about it. (Fraw Món (talk) 01:18, 31 August 2022 (UTC))[reply]
The term "Filipino" wasn't made up by Wikipedians. Neither were "Palembang Malay, "North Moluccan Malay", "Manado Malay", or the fact that Indonesian is an offshoot of standard Malay. That's absurd, given how common these terms and classifications are in linguistic publications (both Indonesian and foreign). Realize that Wikipedia relies on external sources, not figments of anyone's imagination, and most (if not all) of this stuff is easily verifiable. Megfãs (talk) 08:39, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Keep -- I doubt whether formal standard Malay in Malaysia and formal standard Indonesian are any more divergent than Brazilian Portuguese and Portugal Portuguese. The Wikipedia "Indonesian language" article says it is a "standardized variety of Malay". English is not a standardized version of modern German (nor mutually comprehensible with modern German at all), so that analogy doesn't work. If there's some sensitivity over names, the image can be fixed (not deleted)... AnonMoos (talk) 00:28, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@AnonMoos: Do not rely your knowledge about Indonesian language based on Wikipedia, it full of vandalism obviously, you can even clearly checked all sections are purposedly redirected to Malay language. And Indonesian also not the standardized version of Malay, the standardized version of Malay called "Standard Malay" and the standardized version of Indonesian is called "Standard Indonesian", Wikipedia articles about Indonesian are massively and heavily vandalized, you can even see in history or talk pages of that article. Malay variety spoken in Malaysia called Malaysian Malay, it is derived from the Standard Malay, meanwhile the Malay variety spoken in Indonesia has numerous variants and it's not called "Indonesian Malay" because Malay is not official language in Indonesia, but the well-known one is Riau Malay which is the base for Standard Malay itself. (Fraw Món (talk) 01:25, 31 August 2022 (UTC))[reply]
  • Comment. The nominator was first temporarily blocked for abuse here, then permanently blocked as a sockpuppet. Serepinx and the last commenter here (Fraw Món) are additional socks, and now also blocked. So 3 of the 'delete' votes here were by the nominator. They appear to have a history of nationalist hoaxing. Kwamikagami (talk) 09:38, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Definitely and I wouldn't be surprised if the nominator uses another few socks. Right now, only Guido den Broeder has advocated for deleting the file and they've still yet to make an argument against COM:INUSE. SHB2000 (talk) 11:23, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    You need to reread my replies then. I've already pointed out that the policies say only legitimate use counts. That it may be an improvement to an earlier version is irrelevant when the earlier version is equally out of scope. Further, FYI, this is not a vote. Consensus is built with arguments. And certainly not by attacking other users. Guido den Broeder (talk) 14:53, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
And I'm tempted to report you for bullying. Guido den Broeder (talk) 18:33, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"Bullying" because I take offense at your wanting to delete a file we're using in good faith on a wiki? Sure, call the cops. I'm done with this "discussion" with you. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:11, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Guido den Broeder: I've read all your comments twice but it really isn't my nor Ikan Kekek's problem that you choose to ignore COM:INUSE – I've already told you that the file is used on three non-Wikipedia projects where this is clearly superior to the alternate file. I understand if my comments may come out as harsh, but the fact is, I've never made any comments about you; I've only commented about your actions/behaviour. Maybe you should revise what "bullying" means because simply stating facts is not. If you really think I am, go ahead and start a thread at COM:ANU but I really doubt you'll get very far. And like Ikan, I'm also not responding any further because I'm also done with your accusations of "bullying". SHB2000 (talk) 07:55, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've not ignored anything, I have explained to you why it doesn't apply. I don't see a need to repeat that over and over and yes, in a harsh tone demanding answers that have already been given is bullying. There is also no need to repeat your own point of view many times. Once is enough. Guido den Broeder (talk) 13:11, 1 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Guido den Broeder: I've taken a break from this discussion and I will ask this for the last time. Please explain how its usage on the English Wikivoyage, Russian Wikinews and the Indonesian Wikivoyage currently in the incubator isn't a valid reason for keeping this file per COM:INUSE – and please answer without the ad hominem. SHB2000 (talk) 12:27, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Already answered, and in view of your revenge !vote, I will not reply to you again. Guido den Broeder (talk) 12:34, 4 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Right, so now you won't assume good faith. Make your argument at COM:ANU#Guido den Broeder. SHB2000 (talk) 11:49, 5 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Kept: no reason for deletion; If there are some errors in the map/drawing, please use "upload a new version" for correction. For the possibility to rename this file see COM:RENAME. --Wdwd (talk) 08:37, 6 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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