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Commons:Categories for discussion/Archive/2008/08

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Archive August 2008

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Category:Richmond Internacional Speedway

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Wrong name for race track. "International" is spelled wrong, as well as "Raceway" not "Speedway". It is called Richmond International Raceway. See official website. Propose rename to Category:Richmond International Raceway. --Royalbroil 03:35, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted. --Kanonkas(talk) 13:31, 21 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Churches by religion

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Should this not be "Category:Churches by religious denomination"?

All the subcategories within it appear to be subsets (denominations) of Christianity.

Church is generally used to describe Christian religious buildings. Other religions tend to use different names for their places of worship eg Mosque, Synagogue, Temple, etc.

-Arb. (talk) 14:21, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Technically I guess you are mostly right, but is anyone confused by the present name?
By that way, at least on the West Coast of the United States, some Japanese Buddhist congregations term their place of worship a church. See for example Category:Seattle Buddhist Church. - Jmabel ! talk 00:00, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'll also note that there are many subsects of Christianity which would VERY MUCH INSIST insist that their church/religion is a DIFFERENT religion than other Christian sects, not just a denomination. Plus there are likely to be numerous small groups, cults or whatever that consider themselves non-Christian and call their places of worship a church. Ingolfson (talk) 08:32, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
With this said (to which I agree), is anyone still against keeping the current name? --rimshottalk 17:59, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Actually there are some country-specific cat-trees following the proposed scheme, such as for example Category:Churches in Australia by denomination. And, yes, church is clearly understood as Christian religious building. That isn't changed by the strange idea of a Japanese Buddhist congregation, whatever their motives may be. However, as the church (-building) related cat-structure on Commons seems to be rather erratic and inconsistent in total (probably due to incremental increase) a systematic overhaul might be warranted.--Túrelio (talk) 17:47, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Closing stale discussion from 2008. Please open a new thread if needed. -- User:Docu at 05:50, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Stairways

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I am proposing to merge the following categories for which there is no clear distinction. The target for the merge is up for discussion but I am proposing Category:Stairways, if for no other reason than that's the name of the only enwiki category. Renaming/merging the numerous subcategories (e.g., Category:Stairs in Italy and Category:Staircases in Italy into Category:Stairways in Italy) - also overlapping in many cases - would be ideal as well but we can leave for a separate discussion if that is preferable.

—Wknight94 (talk) 17:07, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To be pedantic, although there are overlaps because of language, some of these categories are not identical for example stair wells are not stairs, and steps are not stairs. The stairwell describes the space that the stairs are in, If you were to remove the stairs, for example for refurbishment, the space would still be a stairwell even though at that moment there would be no stairs in it. Similarly a group of steps may together form a stair case, but each individual step would have an identity of its own. Rather than merge, nest these cats so that smaller elements are sub categories of the larger ones, e.g. steps to become a subcategory of stairs and stairs a sub category of stairwells followed by a winnowing out the contents of these cats, so that the main focus of images in steps are the individual steps, that of stairs the stairs as a whole, and that of stairwells the space occupied the stairs.KTo288 (talk) 09:01, 31 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You picked a few that are more distinct, but how about stairways vs. stairs? Stairs vs. steps? When are steps not the same as stairs? According to your definition of "steps", that would be an empty category since none of the photos show an individual step. I can see stairwell being separate from the rest, but what technically is a staircase? From the photos available, I see at most two categories, stairways and stairwells, with the latter being a subcategory of the former - and there would be a lot of shifting to get them all correctly categorized. The rest of the categories are redundant. —Wknight94 (talk) 12:20, 31 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The overlap I agree is semantic, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the staircase is the frame work i.e. the wood, masonry or metal work needed to hold the individual steps together to form the flight of stairs. (going back to my empty stairwell imagine one of those flights of glass and metal stairs, now imagine that the glass steps have been removed for replacement, the remaining metal frame work is the staircase). I guess it matters if you're a carpenter or builder, however in most common everday usage, most people will not differentiate between steps, stairs, staircase and stairwell. As to steps, I've added one of my most recent uploads to steps, although the image shows a number of steps, it was my intention when taking the image to capture the steps and the patterns it formed,and that is the way I've categorised it. One of the reasons I didn't consider stairs or stairwells, is that steps is the term traditionally used for "stairs" that are exposed to the elements. I didn't think of it at the time I gave the reply above, but steps also has a historical and poetic use, e.g. the Spanish Steps, that will resist a purely logical approach at categorisation. KTo288 (talk) 14:35, 31 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Even if you formalized the distinctions like in your staircase vs. stairway vs. stairwell rule, we still don't currently have pictures which show the distinction. The steps have not been removed in any of the cases that I've seen, so why would we need a category for a stairway with the stairs/steps removed. (As an aside, I'm even having difficulty maintaining consistency while I type here!) As for steps exposed to the elements, that's yet another category: Category:Outside stairs. That would need to be merged somehow as well. —Wknight94 (talk) 15:08, 31 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The one gives form to the whole, and the whole to the one, so its easy to see why one approach would to throw everything into the same cat. And I was not suggesting that we should have a category for stairs removed but a mental tool to work out what the focus of the image is and where it should be categorised. For example take an image and mentally remove the stairs from the image, if the image still has a value than its the space the stairs occupied that is of value and the category is "Stairwell". Do the opposite mentally crop out the extraneous detail until only the stairs are left, again if the image has a value without the background the category would be "stairs". Take another image mentally blur the individual steps until they are indistinct, if the balustrades, masonry, decoration e.t.c. is what gives the image its value than categorise as "staircase", if however the image is not worth keeping if the steps are blurred than the category would be "steps". KTo288 (talk) 23:56, 31 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That sounds like a lot of work for the average user to undergo and almost impossible to maintain - but we'll see what others think. —Wknight94 (talk) 00:58, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I propose keeping Category:Stairs, Category:Steps, and Category:Stair ramps. The distinction between the various parts of a stairway are likely too subtle, but I agree there is a difference between steps and stairs (mainly steps have fewer accessories (rail, decoration, etc.) and are more likely to be outside. Finally the stair ramp category is clearly distinct. Superm401 - Talk 18:29, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As per Superm401 - we need to strike a balance between having to many terms and too much generalisation. As an aside, if we want to keep subcategories which might be too "esoteric", we could handle that by distinctly clarifying them with an in-between cat like "stairs" - "parts of stairs" -> "steps" Ingolfson (talk) 10:15, 27 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I propose to keep all categories but to make'em subcategories of Category:Stairs as a main category --Kurpfalzbilder.de (talk) 23:47, 11 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Commons is a multilingual project (as illustrated by the no fewer than 30 languages that the word "stairs" was translated into). Given which, I'm concerned that this discussion is relying too heavily on subtle shades of meaning in English that may not exist in other languages (e.g. stairs indoors and steps outdoors). In order to keep this set of categories accessible to contributors and users of all languages, I would recommend focusing in on a few categories of broadly-defined content that are unlikely to get fuzzed in translation. I suggest two categories to answer the issues put forth in this discussion so far:

All of which leaves the issue of subcategories. There are appropriately many, relating to geography, period, construction, and so forth. I have two specific comments on this:

Okay, I've gone on long enough. One side-effect of insomnia: long-windedness. —Werewombat (talk) 10:07, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I very much agree with Werewombat and his/her point on the multilingual nature of the project. Samulili (talk) 12:06, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Closing stale discussion from 2008. Please open a new thread if needed. -- User:Docu at 05:53, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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