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Where is Sai > Non Game Discussions > Who is Sai
saysaindou
Joined: 02 Jun 05
Posts: 965
Background: Shindou is a professional Go player. At the age of twelve, he received significant attention from various pros, including then Meijin title holder Touya, despite his inexperience. In short order, Shindou became an Insei, and, at the age of fifteen, Shindou became a pro.
In the time between Shindou's appearance on the scene and his time as an Insei, an internet Go player named Sai appeared in the summer. This was an anonymous player who defeated everyone they faced, including pros and a young Touya Kisei.
Sai disappeared at the end of the summer, only to resurface for one game against then Meijin Touya Kouyou after Shindou turned pro. This game soon became a spectator sport, despite no one knowing it would happen beforehand. Touya forfeited, and Sai disappeared again— this time for good. (eGo blocked others from using the Sai moniker in 2005)
Attempts to identify Sai have largely fallen flat. Sai is certainly Japanese, or someone in Japan. Waya Yoshitaka, a pro who also lost to Sai as an Insei, had once posited based off Sai's time online (and Sai's summer appearance and disappearance) that Sai must have been a student. But people were hesitant to buy that theory because of how strong a player Sai was.
But after compiling some game records, I feel confident in saying Shindou was indeed Sai.
Now, I'm not the first to believe this. I'm told Ogata Hon’inbo favors this theory as well. But I think I'm the first to gather proof that points to Sai's identity. This is a long one, with a fair bit of game records linked, so strap in.
CONTENTS
1. Both Sai and Shindou favor Shusaku as a player
2. Rumors of Shindou's three matches with Touya Akira before becoming an Insei
3. Comparing Shindou's first pro match with Touya Kouyou to Sai’s match with Touya online
4. WHY would an elite Go player hide his identity and purposely play below his skill level in public?
(Click here to read the full post)
TL;DR: Overwhelmed by the attention his rivalry with Touya Kisei brought on his life, Shindou played at a significantly lesser level in public and played at his true strength online as the user Sai. Shindou moderated his talent for years, purposely throwing games so he could maintain a fairly normal life, but his true strength slipped through enough to still garner attention.
EDIT: Please see eGolurker’s masterful comment. Although we disagree on why Shindou played differently in public and in private, I think his evidence is even better than mine.
EDIT2: KURATA MEIJIN FOUND THIS THREAD BEHAVE. Don’t mess up eGolurker’s rise!!!
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 00:11
flash_panda_5
Joined: 02 Jun 09
Posts: 79
I’ve always hated the Shindou is Sai theory. Not only does it require you to believe that a preteen boy was secretly a Go genius; it also requires you to believe Shindou has essentially masked his own talent for years. Following Shindou’s game records, you can see an admittedly rapid but clear progression to the player he is today. I think you’d have to be supernaturally talented to fake that kind of progression.
I feel like any other similarity just points to a much more believable conclusion: that Shindou was taught by Sai, and the period at the beginning of his pro career where he was forfeiting matches was because of Sai’s death.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 00:19
saysaindou
Joined: 02 Jun 05
Posts: 965
flash_panda_5 wrote:
I’ve always hated the Shindou is Sai theory. Not only does it require you to believe that a preteen boy was secretly a Go genius; it also requires you to believe Shindou has essentially masked his own talent for years. Following Shindou’s game records, you can see an admittedly rapid but clear progression to the player he is today. I think you’d have to be supernaturally talented to fake that kind of progression.
I don’t think you understand. I am alleging Shindou has always been that talented.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 00:23
JV90832348234
Joined: 12 Aug 11
Posts: 106
flash_panda_5 wrote:
I’ve always hated the Shindou is Sai theory. Not only does it require you to believe that a preteen boy was secretly a Go genius; it also requires you to believe Shindou has essentially masked his own talent for years. Following Shindou’s game records, you can see an admittedly rapid but clear progression to the player he is today. I think you’d have to be supernaturally talented to fake that kind of progression.
THIS. Shindou is someone who turned pro after what, a year on the scene? He wasn’t scared of showing his abilities. He just didn’t have them yet.
On the ten year anniversary of the match Sai had with Touya, Where is Sai ran a poll about who we think Sai is. The overwhelming consensus was that Sai was Shindou’s teacher who remained private for some reason. Everything else is just pure fantasy.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 00:25
enterthevideodrome
Joined: 07 Mar 06
Posts: 689
JV90832348234 wrote:
On the ten year anniversary of the match Sai had with Touya, Where is Sai ran a poll about who we think Sai is. The overwhelming consensus was that Sai was Shindou’s teacher who remained private for some reason. Everything else is just pure fantasy.
Both theories suggest there’s a player who was private enough to hide behind a screen name, but only one suggests that a brilliant player was only found by ONE person! A twelve year old boy! That sounds delusional.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 00:30
Fawcettcityblues
Joined: 26 Oct 08
Posts: 306
flash_panda_5 wrote:
I’ve always hated the Shindou is Sai theory. Not only does it require you to believe that a preteen boy was secretly a Go genius; it also requires you to believe Shindou has essentially masked his own talent for years. Following Shindou’s game records, you can see an admittedly rapid but clear progression to the player he is today. I think you’d have to be supernaturally talented to fake that kind of progression.
That’s the thing though—Shindou hasn’t always been able to hide his talent. There are plenty of stories of Shindou having unbelievable games in the late 90s. There were dozens of witnesses for the match Shindou had as a ringer in a junior high Go tournament. The alternative to believing Shindou can mask his talent is believing that the 12 yo that embarrassed an elite student Go team later regressed in talent.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 00:33
flash_panda_5
Joined: 02 Jun 09
Posts: 79
Fawcettcityblues wrote:
There were dozens of witnesses for the match Shindou had as a ringer in a junior high Go tournament. The alternative to believing Shindou can mask his talent is believing that the 12 yo that embarrassed an elite student Go team later regressed in talent.
Anybody can have a lucky game.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 00:37
enterthevideodrome
Joined: 07 Mar 06
Posts: 689
flash_panda_5 wrote:
Anybody can have a lucky game.
Shindou’s had a strange amount of them then.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 00:40
enterthevideodrome
Joined: 07 Mar 06
Posts: 689
flash_panda_5 wrote:
I’ve always hated the Shindou is Sai theory. Not only does it require you to believe that a preteen boy was secretly a Go genius; it also requires you to believe Shindou has essentially masked his own talent for years.
What’s more likely: a 12-year-old prodigy was quickly discovered but buckled under the weight of the sudden interest of the Go world, or that an adult of that talent managed to stay under the radar for DECADES and a 12-year-old just so happened to find him? Why would someone who was taking all comers online only take on ONE student?
If the only evidence of Sai’s identity is a man who plays an awful lot like him, why would that suggest the existence of a SECOND person?
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 00:41
h3rth7ngs
Joined: 11 Jul 14
Posts: 17
flash_panda_5 wrote:
I feel like any other similarity just points to a much more believable conclusion: that Shindou was taught by Sai, and the period at the beginning of his pro career where he was forfeiting matches was because of Sai’s death.
I always thought the hiatus from Go was due to his weird encounter with Ogata during Golden Week.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 00:59
Fawcettcityblues
Joined: 26 Oct 08
Posts: 306
h3rth7ngs wrote:
I always thought the hiatus from Go was due to his weird encounter with Ogata during Golden Week.
Even if that’s true, I don’t think we should insinuate something with no proof. At least out of respect to Shindou.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 01:01
flash_panda_5
Joined: 02 Jun 09
Posts: 79
h3rth7ngs wrote:
I always thought the hiatus from Go was due to his weird encounter with Ogata during Golden Week.
Shut the fuck up.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 01:11
saysaindou
Joined: 02 Jun 05
Posts: 965
h3rth7ngs wrote:
I always thought the hiatus from Go was due to his weird encounter with Ogata during Golden Week.
Someone always has to say this whenever Shindou’s first year as a pro comes up. Ugh love finding a new person to block
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 01:13
Fawcettcityblues
Joined: 26 Oct 08
Posts: 306
flash_panda_5 wrote:
I feel like any other similarity just points to a much more believable conclusion: that Shindou was taught by Sai, and the period at the beginning of his pro career where he was forfeiting matches was because of Sai’s death.
If someone in Shindou’s life died early in his pro career that feels easy to prove, no? It’s also kind of messed up to think Shindou wouldn’t give his dead teacher some credit for his career.
I also feel like if Sai were dead, someone in his life (particularly Shindou) would have revealed his identity by now.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 01:31
triiplewordscore
Joined: 22 Apr 12
Posts: 211
Fawcettcityblues wrote:
If someone in Shindou’s life died early in his pro career that feels easy to prove, no? It’s also kind of messed up to think Shindou wouldn’t give his dead teacher some credit for his career.
I also feel like if Sai were dead, someone in his life (particularly Shindou) would have revealed his identity by now.
Exactly why I don’t believe the Sai is Shindou’s Teacher theory: it would be BEYOND fucked up if Shindou went this far in his career without ever acknowledging Sai’s influence.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 01:39
enterthevideodrome
Joined: 07 Mar 06
Posts: 689
Fawcettcityblues wrote:
If someone in Shindou’s life died early in his pro career that feels easy to prove, no? It’s also kind of messed up to think Shindou wouldn’t give his dead teacher some credit for his career.
Somebody definitely would’ve said something to the Japanese Go Association if Shindou was mourning. Whatever happened, nobody—not even his own mom!—seemed to be able to explain.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 01:43
atari_shiba
Joined: 17 May 09
Posts: 164
Lets be honest here… nobody wants to admit S=S because that means they were creeping on a kid on eGo.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 02:23
teeeyedoubleguherr
Joined: 21 Dec 13
Posts: 35
atari_shiba wrote:
Lets be honest here… nobody wants to admit S=S because that means they were creeping on a kid on eGo.
Me and three of my friends definitely checked eGo obsessively for hours waiting for Sai to log on….
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 02:37
scrambledbeggs
Joined: 7 Oct 07
Posts: 468
atari_shiba wrote:
Lets be honest here… nobody wants to admit S=S because that means they were creeping on a kid on eGo.
lmaooooo I used to pour myself a glass of wine and watch a thirteen year old beat all comers.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 02:51
saysaindou
Joined: 02 Jun 05
Posts: 965
atari_shiba wrote:
Lets be honest here… nobody wants to admit S=S because that means they were creeping on a kid on eGo.
Now when you put it like that….
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 02:59
baduckduckgoose
Joined: 30 Jan 07
Posts: 519
Saindou randomly hits a Shusaku diagonal and the Where is Sai forum pops every time!!!!
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 03:09
saysaindou
Joined: 02 Jun 05
Posts: 965
baduckduckgoose wrote:
Saindou randomly hits a Shusaku diagonal and the Where is Sai forum pops every time!!!!
Shindou playing the Shusaku Diagonal is the closest I’ll ever come to understanding the girls who think boy band members are secretly dating.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 03:15
enterthevideodrome
Joined: 07 Mar 06
Posts: 689
I always thought it was extremely telling that Kouyou Touya’s set stopped talking about Sai’s identity after Akira Touya and Shindou became close as pros.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 03:22
sushirito
Joined: 11 Jun 08
Posts: 358
enterthevideodrome wrote:
I always thought it was extremely telling that Kouyou Touya’s set stopped talking about Sai’s identity after Akira Touya and Shindou became close as pros.
Ngl I would’ve retired too if Shindou beat my ass for the world to see
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 03:26
Hottoddayyyy
Joined: 3 Dec 11
Posts: 240
enterthevideodrome wrote:
I always thought it was extremely telling that Kouyou Touya’s set stopped talking about Sai’s identity after Akira Touya and Shindou became close as pros.
OR people just moved on? Almost twenty years later and you guys are stuck on one eGo player…
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 03:37
makinbakinpancakes
Joined: 31 Apr 13
Posts: 116
Hottoddayyyy wrote:
OR people just moved on? Almost twenty years later and you guys are stuck on one eGo player…
You’re literally posting on a website called Where is Sai
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 03:42
makinbakinpancakes
Joined: 31 Apr 13
Posts: 116
enterthevideodrome wrote:
I always thought it was extremely telling that Kouyou Touya’s set stopped talking about Sai’s identity after Akira Touya and Shindou became close as pros.
I think it’s more likely Sai spoke to Kouyou Touya after their online game than they all found out Shindou was Sai.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 03:45
enterthevideodrome
Joined: 07 Mar 06
Posts: 689
makinbakinpancakes wrote:
I think it’s more likely Sai spoke to Kouyou Touya after their online game than they all found out Shindou was Sai.
A game that people widely accept Shindou brokered? Why not take the next step and admit Shindou challenged Touya to a game he himself was playing?
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 03:48
makinbakinpancakes
Joined: 31 Apr 13
Posts: 116
enterthevideodrome wrote:
A game that people widely accept Shindou brokered? Why not take the next step and admit Shindou challenged Touya to a game he himself was playing?
If Shindou admitted he was Sai to Touya, why not just have that game in Touya’s hospital room? We would’ve never needed to know the match happened.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 03:50
enterthevideodrome
Joined: 07 Mar 06
Posts: 689
makinbakinpancakes wrote:
If Shindou admitted he was Sai to Touya, why not just have that game in Touya’s hospital room? We would’ve never needed to know the match happened.
I don’t think Shindou admitted to Kouyou Touya he was Sai. I think when Akira Touya and Shindou got close, he admitted the truth.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 03:56
eGoLurker
MODERATOR 
Joined: 02 Feb 03
Posts: 1093
makinbakinpancakes wrote:
If Shindou admitted he was Sai to Touya, why not just have that game in Touya’s hospital room? We would’ve never needed to know the match happened.
Shindou was looking out for the eGo lurkers (me).
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 04:02
daveed39
Joined: 12 Sep 07
Posts: 502
enterthevideodrome wrote:
I always thought it was extremely telling that Kouyou Touya’s set stopped talking about Sai’s identity after Akira Touya and Shindou became close as pros.
There’s NO WAY Ogata would’ve kept Sai’s identity to himself.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 04:13
enterthevideodrome
Joined: 07 Mar 06
Posts: 689
daveed39 wrote:
There’s NO WAY Ogata would’ve kept Sai’s identity to himself.
I think Ogata has been very obvious about who he thinks Sai is.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 04:16
mittensss
Joined: 23 Jul 08
Posts: 218
Super weird that such a young player was a Shusaku obsessive. I don’t think anyone who is self-teaching Go would start with Shusaku. But I also thought it was weird that Shindou and Sai popped up around the same times, and their playing styles were both so old fashioned. I don’t know if I believe they’re the same person, but they’re definitely connected.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 04:45
Fawcettcityblues
Joined: 26 Oct 08
Posts: 306
mittensss wrote:
Super weird that such a young player was a Shusaku obsessive. I don’t think anyone who is self-teaching Go would start with Shusaku. But I also thought it was weird that Shindou and Sai popped up around the same times, and their playing styles were both so old fashioned. I don’t know if I believe they’re the same person, but they’re definitely connected.
At this point it’s widely accepted that Sai and Shindou are connected. The exact connection is what’s in question.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 04:53
gogogadgetsente
Joined: 17 Nov 05
Posts: 736
mittensss wrote:
Super weird that such a young player was a Shusaku obsessive. I don’t think anyone who is self-teaching Go would start with Shusaku. But I also thought it was weird that Shindou and Sai popped up around the same times, and their playing styles were both so old fashioned. I don’t know if I believe they’re the same person, but they’re definitely connected.
Kurata has a great story of Shindou pointing out a forged Shusaku signature. I think it’s more likely Shindou is a history buff who fell into Go that way.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 04:58
sushirito
Joined: 11 Jun 08
Posts: 358
gogogadgetsente wrote:
Kurata has a great story of Shindou pointing out a forged Shusaku signature. I think it’s more likely Shindou is a history buff who fell into Go that way.
History buff????? Shindou?????
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 05:05
Rajjjjpatell
Joined: 5 May 11
Posts: 162
gogogadgetsente wrote:
Kurata has a great story of Shindou pointing out a forged Shusaku signature. I think it’s more likely Shindou is a history buff who fell into Go that way.
Shindou seems like a genius until he opens his mouth
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 05:11
eGoLurker
MODERATOR
Joined: 02 Feb 03
Posts: 1093
gogogadgetsente wrote:
Kurata has a great story of Shindou pointing out a forged Shusaku signature. I think it’s more likely Shindou is a history buff who fell into Go that way.
Not saying I agree with the conclusion, but Shindou does have a degree in Japanese history and a really great antique Go collection.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 05:15
komiisntreal
Joined: 23 Mar 14
Posts: 193
I honestly think Akira Touya had an off day and spent the years after building up Shindou to excuse that early loss.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 05:23
Fawcettcityblues
Joined: 26 Oct 08
Posts: 306
komiisntreal wrote:
I honestly think Akira Touya had an off day and spent the years after building up Shindou to excuse that early loss.
Have you seen the game Touya lost? Touya didn’t have an off day. Shindou was just incredibly on.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 05:38
komiisntreal
Joined: 23 Mar 14
Posts: 193
Fawcettcityblues wrote:
Have you seen the game Touya lost? Touya didn’t have an off day. Shindou was just incredibly on.
No, I haven’t and neither have you. We saw a recreation of a recreation. I’m more willing to believe Touya is covering up his embarrassment at losing to Shindou than Shindou played like that at twelve.
Shindou’s game records suggest he couldn’t even play at that level five years later.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 05:49
saysaindou
Joined: 02 Jun 05
Posts: 306
komiisntreal wrote:
I’m more willing to believe Touya is covering up his embarrassment at losing to Shindou than Shindou played like that at twelve.
Lol Touya got an entire Go Salon, a school Go tournament, and every pro who came across Shindou to lie about Shindou’s abilities.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 05:52
eGoLurker
MODERATOR
Joined: 02 Feb 03
Posts: 1093
Hi! So I watched a good 95% of the matches Sai played on eGo live, and I got to really know those games when I compiled them all here (what I didn’t see has been helpfully added by many other Go enthusiasts!) I feel pretty confident in saying I know Sai’s Go.
Short of eGo getting hacked and releasing any incriminating information, I don’t think we’ll have firm proof of S=S. But to me, S=S was confirmed by the publication of Ochi’s book. It’s honestly a very interesting look at a very privileged young Go player: He played a myriad of pros before he turned pro through teaching games and provided some of the game records. But the game record that most interests ME isn’t one of Ochi’s.
Shindou and Akira Touya’s second game (1998) is in the book. Here’s a scan of the game record. I’m also including a link to the match Touya had with Sai that Touya ended early during the August 1999 Amateur Go Tournament. Shindou's Go is brilliant, in my opinion. The game makes it clear why Touya was so focused on a so-called beginner. The kicker: The opening moves of the game Ochi presents are identical to the match Touya started with Sai.
I know some people have claimed it was coincidental, or that Sai as Shindou’s teacher may have later learned about the game from Shindou, but Occam’s razor: the matches are identical because the same players played both games.
Now I’m not willing to support the “Shindou moderated his talent for years” theory. I find it entirely incongruous with Shindou’s personality. I’ve always thought that this was a case of Shindou being better in private than public. A twelve-year-old boy, by all accounts self-taught at this point, walked into a Go salon and faced who he thought was an average child. Beating Akira Touya thrust him into the sights of the then Meijin’s study group, and the attention was too much. He wanted to help his friend establish a Go club at their school; he didn’t want to be a celebrity (yet). I think this fits with every description we’ve gotten of Shindou’s time as an Insei: he was a great player who was also completely ignorant to the mores of Go and could often psyche himself out. Behind a computer and anonymous he could play his best.
And honestly? Shindou was right! The moment he decided to work towards being a pro, both Kurata and Kuwabara also took immediate notice of him. Imagine all that attention in Junior High from some of the most intense pros Japan has to offer.
I think because Shindou is so often linked with Akira Touya, people aren’t willing to accept that even a child prodigy might be overwhelmed by the attention. When it’s actually Touya who was the weird one for being so comfortable in the spotlight.
(And yes, I do think Touya knows S=S. I think he’s known for a long time. Even as a kid Touya was straight laced. Who else would he skip his pro test match for other than Shindou?)
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 06:09
easyqueasylemonpeasy
Joined: 18 Sep 07
Posts: 488
eGoLurker wrote:
But to me, S=S was confirmed by the publication of Ochi’s book. It’s honestly a very interesting look at a very privileged young Go player: He played a myriad of pros before he turned pro through teaching games and provided some of the game records.
Off topic but Ochi’s book is such garbage. You too can become an elite go player if your rich grandpa buys you face time with every pro!
I heard Touya was pissed at him for publishing that game? Anyone got the 411 on that?
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 06:13
moniquechristinayolanda
Joined: 19 Dec 08
Posts: 547
easyqueasylemonpeasy wrote:
Off topic but Ochi’s book is such garbage. You too can become an elite go player if your rich grandpa buys you face time with every pro!
People love to get on Ochi but at least he’s honest about his privileges. God forbid anyone mention the advantages Akira Touya enjoyed.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 06:18
eGoLurker
MODERATOR
Joined: 02 Feb 03
Posts: 1093
easyqueasylemonpeasy wrote:
I heard Touya was pissed at him for publishing that game? Anyone got the 411 on that?
As pissed as Akira Touya can get, of course. He’s very polite in the pro setting to non Shindou players.
Besides some things Waya has said publicly and THAT Judan series game, it's just not very interesting. Touya mostly just gives him the cold shoulder at events.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 06:23
saysaindou
Joined: 02 Jun 05
Posts: 306
easyqueasylemonpeasy wrote:
I heard Touya was pissed at him for publishing that game? Anyone got the 411 on that?
I did a run down on Touya and Ochi’s falling out after THAT match in the Judan series here. In short, Touya’s just stonewalling Ochi. Nothing explosive.
Crazy how personally Waya took the book, especially considering Waya was the one who first suggested Sai was a kid…
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 06:25
komiisntreal
Joined: 23 Mar 14
Posts: 193
eGoLurker wrote:
Shindou and Akira Touya’s second game (early 1999) is in the book. Here’s a scan of the game record.
Ochi didn’t personally witness Shindou and Touya’s second match. Touya showed him the match. I think it's interesting you haven’t considered that Touya was lying.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 06:31
eGoLurker
MODERATOR
Joined: 02 Feb 03
Posts: 1093
komiisntreal wrote:
Ochi didn’t personally witness Shindou and Touya’s second match. Touya showed him the match. I think it's interesting you haven’t considered that Touya was lying.
What reason would Touya have to lie?
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 06:32
komiisntreal
Joined: 23 Mar 14
Posts: 193
eGoLurker wrote:
What reason would Touya have to lie?
Touya entered a Middle School Go Tournament just to face Shindou and was promptly embarrassed by how poorly Shindou played. If Shindou’s this secret genius, then Touya’s obsession with him becomes reasonable. It’s much better for him than the more probable answer: Touya lost in a fluke to a beginner player and spent his teenage years embarrassing himself over a player who doesn’t exist.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 06:35
saysaindou
Joined: 02 Jun 05
Posts: 306
komiisntreal wrote:
Touya entered a Middle School Go Tournament just to face Shindou and was promptly embarrassed by how poorly Shindou played. If Shindou’s this secret genius, then Touya’s obsession with him becomes reasonable. It’s much better for him than the more probable answer: Touya lost in a fluke to a beginner player and spent his teenage years embarrassing himself over a player who doesn’t exist.
lmao I’m sorry, a giant conspiracy to prop up Shindou that includes various title holders of the early 2000s is more probable????
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 06:36
enterthevideodrome
Joined: 07 Mar 06
Posts: 689
komiisntreal wrote:
Touya entered a Middle School Go Tournament just to face Shindou and was promptly embarrassed by how poorly Shindou played. If Shindou’s this secret genius, then Touya’s obsession with him becomes reasonable. It’s much better for him than the more probable answer: Touya lost in a fluke to a beginner player and spent his teenage years embarrassing himself over a player who doesn’t exist.
You really believe Touya made up a whole match he didn’t show anyone else but Ochi? Be serious.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 06:37
eGoLurker
MODERATOR
Joined: 02 Feb 03
Posts: 1093
komiisntreal wrote:
It’s much better for him than the more probable answer: Touya lost in a fluke to a beginner player and spent his teenage years embarrassing himself over a player who doesn’t exist.
Touya was twelve going on forty-five. Every profile and interview with him from the time talks about how serious and thoughtful he was. (except, of course, in all matters Shindou)
Even if I believed Touya was immature enough to concoct an elaborate lie about another player, you’d also have to explain all the other stories of pros taking notice of Shindou before he even turned fourteen.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 06:37
kurata_atsushi
Joined: 15 Jul 10
Posts: 7
First off, eGolurker, massive fan of the site. The archive is incredible and a LOT of us use it
I came across this and thought I’d share a little insight. I’ve known Shindou since he was about fourteen, but I unfortunately only know Sai through Where is Sai (being a pro is busy business, go figure!)
I don’t really buy theories of Shindou and Sai being connected for one reason: I really like Shindou. Shindou’s one of the few Go players that I can hang out with outside of the professional circuit. It’s not that Shindou doesn’t take matches seriously, but unlike a lot of players, he can turn ‘off’ the intensity. Sucks going to karaoke with people who see you as an enemy between games!
I could never forgive Shindou if he was Sai. The idea of him throwing some games to hide his skill level for whatever reason infuriates me. It would be absurdly selfish for him to keep that kind of player from the world (particularly me!) Even if it was nerves, and he wasn’t purposely throwing matches, I think he would have owed certain players (me!) the same chance Kouyou Touya got to face him at his best.
I couldn’t forgive Shindou if Sai were his teacher either. The Shindou I’ve come to know would never deny a teacher his spotlight. It’s especially despicable for Shindou to claim to have no teacher prior to Morishita in this scenario. Even if Sai were the most private of players, Shindou should have at least alluded to a teacher. I also think Sai in this scenario is unforgivable; where was he when Shindou was rising through the ranks? Where was he when Shindou needed someone in his corner?
Shindou and Sai both are undoubtedly influenced by Hon’inbo Shusaku, that’s true. And I have always thought Shindou’s affinity for old fashioned play was strange! But: one, Shindou’s first Go influence was his grandfather, and two, I know Shindou can come off dim in interviews, but the history buff guy might be closer to the truth than you all think: Shindou is a wealth of knowledge about Shusaku and the Edo period in general, and I’ve been on a couple of his trips to Innoshima. You can’t go within 50 km without Shindou making a pit stop at Shusaku’s grave.
I don’t have an answer for some of the weirder things (eGolurker’s right, the game Ochi provided is stunning evidence, but it is just the opening…) But for Shindou to be Sai, he’d have to be an entirely different person than I thought he was.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 08:15
moniquechristinayolanda
Joined: 19 Dec 08
Posts: 547
kurata_atsushi wrote:
And I have always thought Shindou’s affinity for old fashioned play was strange! But: one, Shindou’s first Go influence was his grandfather
Shindou’s grandpa is Sai confirmed.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 08:16
kurata_atsushi
Joined: 15 Jul 10
Posts: 7
moniquechristinayolanda wrote:
Shindou’s grandpa is Sai confirmed.
Haha, I’ve played him! Definitely not.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 08:19
eGoLurker
MODERATOR
Joined: 02 Feb 03
Posts: 1093
kurata_atsushi wrote:
First off, eGolurker, massive fan of the site. The archive is incredible and a LOT of us use it
I am losing my mind right now oh my god
EDIT: My hands are shaking guys. Just got off the phone. I’ve confirmed this is actually Kurata Meijin.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 08:20Last Edited: 04 Mar 2015 | 10:00
kurata_atsushi
Joined: 15 Jul 10
Posts: 7
eGolurker wrote:
I am losing my mind right now oh my god
Sent you a private message. I’d love a chance to collaborate!
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 08:24
daveed39
Joined: 12 Sep 07
Posts: 502
eGolurker wrote:
I am losing my mind right now oh my god
This feels like watching my own son win.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 08:24
enterthevideodrome
Joined: 07 Mar 06
Posts: 689
eGolurker wrote:
I am losing my mind right now oh my god
Remember us when you meet Sai
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 08:25
JV90832348234
Joined: 12 Aug 11
Posts: 106
eGolurker wrote:
I am losing my mind right now oh my god
lmao S=S brainrot leaking to the world.
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 08:26
gogogadgetsente
Joined: 17 Nov 05
Posts: 736
kurata_atsushi wrote:
Shindou and Sai both are undoubtedly influenced by Hon’inbo Shusaku, that’s true. And I have always thought Shindou’s affinity for old fashioned play was strange! But: one, Shindou’s first Go influence was his grandfather, and two, I know Shindou can come off dim in interviews, but the history buff guy might be closer to the truth than you all think: Shindou is a wealth of knowledge about Shusaku and the Edo period in general, and I’ve been on a couple of his trips to Innoshima. You can’t go within 50 km without Shindou making a pit stop at Shusaku’s grave.
validated by Kurata Meijin, life can’t get better than this
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 08:30
kurata_atsushi
Joined: 15 Jul 10
Posts: 7
gogogadgetsente wrote:
validated by Kurata Meijin, life can’t get better than this
here’s hoping that’s not true!
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 08:35
saysaindou
Joined: 02 Jun 05
Posts: 965
kurata_atsushi wrote:
I could never forgive Shindou if he was Sai. The idea of him throwing some games to hide his skill level for whatever reason infuriates me. It would be absurdly selfish for him to keep that kind of player from the world (particularly me!) Even if it was nerves, and he wasn’t purposely throwing matches, I think he would have owed certain players (me!) the same chance Kouyou Touya got to face him at his best.
do I argue with Kurata do I argue with Kurata do I argue with Kurata
EDIT: omg what do you MEAN he’s the real deal
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 08:40 Last Edited: 04 Mar 2015 | 10:23
kurata_atsushi
Joined: 15 Jul 10
Posts: 7
saysaindou wrote:
do I argue with Kurata do I argue with Kurata do I argue with Kurata
I mean you can! Haha it would be kind of funny for you to claim to know my friend more than I do
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 08:53
sushirito
Joined: 11 Jun 08
Posts: 358
kurata_atsushi wrote:
I came across this and thought I’d share a little insight. I’ve known Shindou since he was about fourteen, but I unfortunately only know Sai through Where is Sai (being a pro is busy business, go figure!)
Come on guys the real Meijin wouldn’t be trolling message boards…
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 08:59
kurata_atsushi
Joined: 15 Jul 10
Posts: 7
sushirito wrote:
Come on guys the real Meijin wouldn’t be trolling message boards…
If by ‘trolling’, you mean killing time on a long ride…
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 09:06
baduckduckgoose
Joined: 30 Jan 07
Posts: 519
kurata_atsushi wrote:
I don’t have an answer for some of the weirder things (eGolurker’s right, the game Ochi provided is stunning evidence, but it is just the opening…) But for Shindou to be Sai, he’d have to be an entirely different person than I thought he was.
Huge fan. I was wondering if you could share your thoughts on Shindou’s months of forfeits?
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 09:19
kurata_atsushi
Joined: 15 Jul 10
Posts: 7
baduckduckgoose wrote:
Huge fan. I was wondering if you could share your thoughts on Shindou’s months of forfeits?
Oh man. Look, Shindou and I weren’t close yet. So, I can’t really make any definitive statements here even if I wanted to. Shindou is also understandably cagey about discussing this period of his life even now. And I get it, this happened right after Sai’s last online appearance, so its catnip for theorists. Out of respect for my friend, I’m not going to make guesses. I’m just going to say that we should remember that Shindou was a kid when this went down, and Isumi did us ALL a favor when he got through to Shindou
Posted: 04 Mar 2015 | 09:34