Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Women in Red/Archive 31

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Strange series of articles on women feminists, writers and artists

I have been looking quite carefully at a series of articles created by Salea248 over the past couple of months. The problem for me is that they have all been based on a rather weak source, namely Revolt, they said compiled by Andrea Geyer. While many of the feminists, writers and artists mentioned may be notable (some are indeed covered in other language versions of Wikipedia), the mere fact that they are mentioned in this source (said to be Creative Commons 3.0), appears to me to be violating the need for reliable sourcing. I have worked on a few of them but the more I see, the less convinced I am that many of the women covered are truly notable. At the very least, most of them need far better sourcing. Any opinions on this?--Ipigott (talk) 16:32, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Clicking through the bottom 10 of these, it seems most make the claim of notability from being related to/in a relationship with another notable person. I concur that while some, i.e. Dorothy Caruso clearly meet GNG from what I can find in RS, others would be better merged as they do not meet the basic criteria of being comprehensive enough or having sufficient sourcing at this time to become comprehensive enough for a stand-alone entry. I love that articles on women are being created, but they need to meet the basic criteria or they will be lost. Lots of clean-up is going to be required. SusunW (talk) 19:39, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Elizabeth McCausland was on my list, and Dorothy Caruso I concur is worthy of her own page (other than being the wife of Caruso, she was also an author). The other names are mostly unknown to me. --Elisa.rolle (talk) 20:02, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

I will work Elizabeth McCausland and Dorothy Caruso.Elisa.rolle (talk) 20:12, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Elisa.rolle If you lack for sources, let me know. Lots of stuff in Newspapers.com on her, though I must admit I find equal numbers by searching Dorothy Park Benjamin. SusunW (talk) 20:14, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Elizabeth McCausland was the partner of Berenice Abbott and Dorothy Caruso of Margaret Anderson, it's a pity nothing about the relationship is in there. I will try to make them independent from their partners thought.Elisa.rolle (talk) 20:18, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Thank you both for your offer of help with some of these. If I have time, I'll list some of the others which either require attention or merging into other articles, for example some of the Swedish artists belonging to "De Fem". I think it would also be useful to examine whether it is permissible to use a very recent unreferenced set of short biographies as an authentic source. It seems to me to be a way of avoiding the usual sourcing requirement simply by citing a CC 3.0 source. Rosiestep who has considerable experience in drawing on authentic PD sources may be like to comment on this. It seems to me to be important as Salea248 is apparently being paid simply to copy these over to Wikipedia - and there are many, many more to come. Many of the articles would of course be acceptable if they were expanded on the basis of reliable sources but Salea248 is not doing much to find these, or indeed to look for sources from the articles in other language versions of Wikipedia.--Ipigott (talk) 08:11, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Someone with expertise needs to look at the paid editing statement on Salea248 page and their use of CC BY-SA 3.0 for sourcing. Unfortunately, as you mention, my expertise/experience is with WP:PD, which is different than CC BY-SA 3.0 so I'm sorry I can't be of help with this. However, Megalibrarygirl is a librarian, Drmies is on ArbCom, and Missvain founded WikiProject Women Artists, so they may have some insight into these points. --Rosiestep (talk) 14:41, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

The use of CC By-SA 3.0 does seem OK. Creative Commons states that works licensed in this way are free to copy, free to adapt as long as attribution is given and the works are shared alike. Since Wikipedia uses the CC BY-SA 3.0 license, too, the last criteria is met. So the copyright shouldn't be an issue. However, I'm not a lawyer and copyright can get tricky. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 16:21, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

@Ipigott, Rosiestep, and SusunW: another huge issue may be that the source, "Revolt they said," may not be completely accurate. I just started looking at Mary Fanton Roberts and have found some sources on her. The Chicago Tribune and New York Tribune both contradict info from the book, "Revolt, they said" which has been included in the article. This is where there may be some serious problems. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 16:33, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Megalibrarygirl I had the same thought. "Revolt they said" is part of an art project which shows the interconnections of people, i.e. all of the entries will more than likely point to others for their notability rather than having been assessed for individual notability. Factoids do not make someone notable by Wiki standards. I worked on Talk:Marian Tinker yesterday for hours and cannot find enough to make an entry. See my comments. Today I am working on Ami Mali Hicks, who does seem notable. SusunW (talk) 16:54, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

I started reviewing the biographies list on the "Revolt, they said" website a couple of hours ago looking for women writers. The first writer on that list was Amparo Alvajar. Alvajar had an article in the Galician wiki but not ENWP, so I created the article through translation, and added a bit from another source. Then I went back to the Alvajar blurb on "Revolt" for a comparison of information. I noticed that "Revolt" mentioned translations from French authors Diderot, Flaubert, and Bollard, so I googled Alvajar plus Diderot, Flaubert, Bollard. I found [www.raco.cat/index.php/MonTI/article/download/301217/390690 this 2011 article by O Castro]. Unfortunately, the "Revolt" blurb is a close paraphrase of the Castro article so if Salea248 had copy/pasted the "Revolt" blurb into Wikipedia, there would be a copyright issue. How many other "Revolt" blurbs were created in a similar way, I don't know, but each Wikipedia article sourced to "Revolt" should, IMO, undergo this review as the "Revolt" website is not a WP:RS. Also, IMO, we should notify Salea248 so they understand why the "Revolt" website isn't a RS, even if it is CC BY-SA 3.0. Again, I am not the expert on this. --Rosiestep (talk) 17:10, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

FYI the Elizabeth McCausland was pretty much a copy of the Janet Flanner's obituary from The New Yorker, 1973, which, I suppose, is not public domain. I changed it, but yes, I have the feeling that pretty much everything on that website is a copy and paste from non PD sources. Elisa.rolle (talk) 17:39, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

In my opinion, the Revolt biographies have been compiled without very much attention to sourcing or detail, simply to illustrate the many women included in the exhibit which Andrea Geyer presented at the New York Museum of Modern Art a few years ago. If I am not mistaken, she is now paying for them to be included more or less verbatim on Wikipedia. Even if she now labels them as CC 3.0, this does not appear to be an acceptable way of justifying their inclusion. On the other hand, many of the women in her biographies are certainly notable enough for inclusion but they need to be reliably referenced from other sources. Those who cannot be reliably sourced certainly risk deletion or merging. I'm all for including as many notable women as possible on Wikipedia but I think in this case we need to be very attentive. I hope Salea248 has been following these discussions. If s/he needs any assistance in resolving these problems, s/he should let us know.--Ipigott (talk) 21:04, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Ipigott, I totally agree with you. As Elisa.rolle noted above, "Revolt" appears to be copying sentences verbatim from other sources which are not in the public domain. Can you look at Emilie Worringer? I find no sources under that name, only under Emmy Worringer, BUT, they are all in German and in books, which won't work in any translator program I have. I am not sure she was an artist, so much as an art promoter, but without being able to evaluate the sources, I am left with only this snippet [1] which clearly is insufficient to create any kind of comprehensive entry. SusunW (talk) 00:11, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

SusunW: I've had a quick look and agree with you that the name is probably Emmy rather than Emilie or Emily. As far as I can see, there's not a great deal of information on the internet, even in German, but I'll see what I can put together. I'm tied up with visitors today and tomorrow but I'll try to get onto it soon. I must say, I'm not too happy about this approach: correcting the errors of recent unsourced biographies which are simply being copied into Wikipedia. I've looked at most of the articles by Salea and see that if we really think they're worthwhile keeping, there's a lot of work to do.--Ipigott (talk) 08:55, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

SusunW, Ipigott: I'll work a bit more on Emmy Worringer as there is some stuff in German that can help. Plus German artists are a special interest of mine :) Alafarge (talk) 15:02, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Ipigott. Enjoy your guests. I'm going to work on Mary Logan Tucker today. She has links to WILPF. SusunW (talk) 15:25, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

SusunW: I couldn't find much on Worringer, even in German, but all the German sources give her name as Emmy W so I've moved the article after adding a few refs.--Ipigott (talk) 14:58, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

I made an effort at Harriet Randall Lumis--seems a pretty minor regional landscape painter, but now the entry has more details and six more references than it used to.-Penny Richards (talk) 19:21, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Working on Matilda Rabinowitz Robbins now. Easily notable, and her unpublished memoir written in the 1950s will be published this fall by Cornell University Press, so it'd be good for her to have a decent entry when that appears. -Penny Richards (talk) 02:21, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Made an effort at Olivia Stokes Hatch too. - Penny Richards (talk) 14:28, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

I've not looked carefully at what came after Rosiestep's ping--I did look at the Geyer-authored page. PD or not, this is just not acceptable as a RS, in my opinion. Geyer isn't a scholar, and while that doesn't mean her stuff is wrong, it is also no guarantee that it is right. There is no peer review involved in the project from what I can see, and the list of sources is a very, very mixed bag, but without individual attribution it is impossible for us to judge whether a given entry is reliably sourced or not. I am sure that I am repeating what someone else already said, but I'm late to the party--and now the kids are hungry. Rosiestep, nice to see you again--I hope you had a great time! Drmies (talk) 22:47, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Ipigott That's what I thought from what I could glean from the sources too. I am going back to a real peace activist today. Looked at five of these in-depth, fixed two, though Tucker wore me out. There is a lot more that can be written about her, but not by me. Plenty there to meet GNG, but with her bordering on the edge of pre-McCarthyism and boosterism everything must be weighed threefold to avoid POV. SusunW (talk) 15:33, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, Drmies, appreciate you weighing in on this. --Rosiestep (talk) 16:17, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

All: I left a note on Salea248's talkpage. --Rosiestep (talk) 16:17, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Rosie but I think we might already have frightened her away. She hasn't been active since 18 August. If she decides to continue, she could benefit from our advice and assistance.--Ipigott (talk) 08:19, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Questionable notability

Victuallers and Women in Red at Wikimedia blogpost

Check it out! Plus thanks to Sailesh Patnaik, CIS-A2K; Jnanaranjan Sahu, Odia Wikipedia; and Samir Elsharbaty, Wikimedia Foundation. --Rosiestep (talk) 13:51, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Very cool! SusunW (talk) 14:07, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Yay Victuallers! Megalibrarygirl (talk) 16:28, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

Belated Thanks guys - cool to see that a sports event gave away all their images as cc by sa. Before they did this there were a minority of Asian males athletes with pictures. Now its the opposite way round for that event. Its the women who have the pictures. And at the next event then people will see that its the women who have the pictures. We should see them appearing on our WIR redlists as the ones with pictures. Thannks to Sailesh Patnaik in partic who re-tweeted all the new articles with new pictures. Victuallers (talk) 15:26, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

New logos

Hello, i'm a french contributor in fr:Projet:Les sans pagEs, which is the equivalent of WIR on our version. I've made some new logos for our projects, so do not hesitate to use them if you want.

There are silhouettes from Kamma Rahbek, as the original logo, but i've also used Jane Austen, and Sofia Yákovlevna.

I hope it will be useful somehow...

Cordialement, GrandCelinien (talk) 09:27, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

These logos are beautiful! Thank you so much. Alex Shih ^Talk 09:44, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

They are beautiful. Thank you, GrandCelinien. --Rosiestep (talk) 11:42, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps some of them could be used for creating badges, like the ones shown here. I think we're getting to the point where we need to create an image library for WiR: barnstars, logos, social media, conferences, key people, etc.--Ipigott (talk) 12:47, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Ipigott, badges/buttons are lovely. If I had some, I would distribute them at editathons. Don't know who created the ones you link to and/or cost, etc. Besides the WikiProject Women in Red category on Commons, were you thinking of an additional location for the image library? --Rosiestep (talk) 15:41, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Rosiestep: I think the badges come from Victuallers and his UK friends. The Commons pages contain a lot of interesting images but they are perhaps not always displayed in the best way for people to find what they are looking for. Furthermore, there are lots of pertinent images which, for one reason or another, do not seem to be on the Women in Red pages on Commons. There does not appear to be a listing for the all-important barnstars. I remember Jane023 put together a series of interesting graphics for a presentation she made in the Netherlands including this but where are all the others? There have also been images in connection with Wiki loves Women and the French Les sans pagEs. Then there are all the related images such as File:Women_edit_-_Komm_rein,_mach_mit!.JPG and the images on editathon pages like this one. Commons now has a page for 2017 but what about all the other years? I also think many people would prefer to have access to the most important WiR images from Wikipedia rather than from Commons. Perhaps we could develop a navbox specifically for images, presenting them in a more user-friendly way. Groups or individuals developing their own presentations or editathons would then be able to put slide shows together or issue participation certificates, etc. I would be interested to hear with Megalibrarygirl and other key participants think about all this.--Ipigott (talk) 08:11, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Ipigott I love those! One thing I was thinking, however, is that we need more diversity. Looking at the logos, I can tell they are all probably white, 19th century women. It would be great to have black women and modern women in the logos. Otherwise, I think they're beautiful and exciting. Maybe we could write some kind of script to randomly assign them to our WiR templates? Rosiestep making stickers with Vistaprint is pretty cost-effective and they look nice. We could even maybe design a sticker for cars. Beautiful work, overall GrandCelinien. I think we can definitely use your ideas. :) Megalibrarygirl (talk) 16:34, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Megalibrarygirl I was thinking the exact same thing. There are some silhouettes here that might be played around with, but I don't have the skill. Love the images, but we need diversify them. Am also liking anything that makes searching for images easier. Commons is impossible for me to find anything without googling and backing into the images. SusunW (talk) 18:31, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

@Megalibrarygirl and SusunW:, yes, definitely agree that the images should support diversity! Maybe they could match up with some of the monthly edit-a-thon themes? Ipigott, having a Wikipedia page with images sounds great! --Rosiestep (talk) 23:54, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

@Rosiestep and SusunW: Here's one remix from an Argentinian politician.

Megalibrarygirl (talk) 23:57, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Megalibrarygirl, nice!!! So glad you know how to create images. --Rosiestep (talk) 00:00, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Megalibrarygirl Very cool. No idea how you did that, but I don't need to know. It's only important to know that you know ;) I really like it! There are categories on commons Females looking right, Females looking left, which might give some others? SusunW (talk) 04:04, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

I want to play, too. :-) Haven't had time this week to dust off Photoshop, but I offer a few suggestions if you're interested:

Ruth Henshaw Bascom, an American folk artist
Shirley Chisholm, member of the U.S. House of Representatives: image here (not PD, but I think it could work for a derivative image)
Nefertiti: Google Image Search turns up some profile views of the bust
Phillis Wheatley might be good, except for the hand on her chin

And a few other images from Commons: File:Hamer Dancer, Ethiopia (8190683266).jpg, File:African American woman, head-and-shoulders portrait, left profile LCCN99472062.jpg, File:Edward S. Curtis, Young Wishham woman, ca. 1910.jpg, File:Agrippina younger pushkin profile.jpg, File:Consuelo Kanaga, Young Girl in Profile 1948.jpg - not necessarily notables, but potentially useful. --Ser Amantio di Nicolao^{Che dicono a Signa?}_{Lo dicono a Signa.} 05:09, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Ser Amantio di Nicolao I love that image of Shirley Chisholm. So iconic! From hereforward, I will look for profiles. Usually just reject those images as not giving a good view, but...there are other purposes :) SusunW (talk) 13:37, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Hello ! Megalibrarygirl One of the contributor of the french project (Fhala.K) made some logos with her drawings of women yesterday (I post here at her request) :

Logo with three women for the Women in red project
Logo with three women for the Women in red project
Logo with three women
Logo with three women for Les sans pages
Logo with three women for Les sans pages

Yes, it would be nice to make some SVG sihouettes of other women, because those that i've used and made are very "19 century". Also, thank you all ! GrandCelinien (talk) 09:59, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

SusunW, I agree - I love that portrait of Chisholm. (Love Chisholm, too, but that's another story for another day.)

Another interesting source of profile portraits might be Charles Balthazar Julien Févret de Saint-Mémin. I can't find many of women - although he did depict Elizabeth Ann Seton before her conversion and vows - and there aren't as many as I'd expected on Commons, but a quick Google image search might turn up some likely candidates, if you're interested. All early American, mostly late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries. --Ser Amantio di Nicolao^{Che dicono a Signa?}_{Lo dicono a Signa.} 14:24, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Totally, Ser Amantio di Nicolao Chisholm is one of my all time sheroes. Along with Audre Lorde and Wilma Mankiller (though I totally opposed her stance on Freedmen). SusunW (talk) 14:50, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

@GrandCelinien, Ser Amantio di Nicolao, and SusunW: I love Fhala.K's images! She's a good artist! I find making .svg files difficult, but these are super. Thanks for sharing! I think we could definitely use these images. I love how playful they are. Chisholm was the real deal and she was amazing. I'll try to play with Photoshop later. Maybe using a profile shadow counts as fair use. :) Megalibrarygirl (talk) 16:11, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes these logos and drawings are great! Thank you ever so much for your dedication and work ont his project! I would like to include the emoji in my signature but dont know how to do it. I will make T shirts with the drawing for the French Wikiconvention in Strasburg, so if you want any (if somenone you know is coming to France in october) place an order on ma discussion page. I have no idea of the price yet, it will depend on the quantity. And we will make buttons as well, seems like a great idea.--Nattes à chat (talk) 07:25, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

@GrandCelinien, Ser Amantio di Nicolao, SusunW, Fhala.K, Megalibrarygirl, and Victuallers: Just love the creativity of these images. So I would be very appreciative if someone could make a logo combining these two. I would try using it when tweeting articles which don't have an image. Thank you. --Rosiestep (talk) 14:54, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Logo with three women for the Women in red project
Logo with three women for the Women in red project

Hi, I like the ideas here. The three heads expresses our diversity better than the white (in both senses) woman we have at present. My caution here is that we do have a powerful ie known, logo. We need to make sure that it evolves rather than changes. Coca-Cola's logo has changed a lot .... but very very slowly. Currently "women in Red" now means a red heart with a white silhouette. The #1day1woman logo is a recognizably subtle change. So I think we need more work - What would the three figures look like in red? Could we have a gif logo where the silhouette changes to alt heads? I was keen to steal "Ian?"s idea to call our talk "Making Women Blue" but its too large a change for our logo unless we left everything else the same. There was a move to try "women in green". The logo is important... I like change, but it has to be a visually obvious evolution from our exiting and known logo. I flicked to the Albanian wiki and my eye was immediately frawn to the banner because it has our logo. Ive no idea what the writing says .... but the logo says "That all-pervading WIR project is here as well!!" Thanks for listening. Victuallers (talk) 15:14, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

I agree that we don't want to change our logo permanently, but I also think that what resonates is the red heart with the white silhouette. If we periodically change the woman to a more diverse image, for say Asian month or black history month, seems to me it will make people notice that there was a difference for some reason, calling attention to an on-going campaign. SusunW (talk) 15:41, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

@Victuallers: I like SusunW's idea: if we change the logo occasionally, but keep the usual theme, it will highlight ongoing campaigns. For example, I finally did create a Chisholm heart. What if we use something like that for Black history month? (though I think I need to swap it so she's facing the right direction) There's so many amazing variations we can do and still have the logo "feel" the same. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 16:46, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Megalibrarygirl :D :D :D I love it! and yes, I think it needs to be flipped so the woman is looking the same direction. I also think we we need to ensure that the scale of the woman is similar to the original to ensure that it is a variation on WiR's logo and not another logo entirely. Can we scale your Argentinian politician for next month's Latina editathon, for example? Just make the silhouette a wee bit smaller so that only the nose extends past the dip in the heart. SusunW (talk) 17:00, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

SusunW I'll try to fix the Argentinian woman. I think I overwrote the save file. But here's Shirley flipped. :) Megalibrarygirl (talk) 17:25, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Shirley Chisholm silhouette for Women in Red.

SusunW This keeps the (Coca-Cola) red and white and we then get a Google variation idea. We could still use a default logo but include either a silhouette or minor changes. The key as you say is to leave it instantly recognizable, but intriguing on further study. Can we hook in our artists above? Oh and badges - WikimediaUK have a machine that can create dozens, but 100s are tricky. If we want an international badge then we could get several thousand for a few hundreds of $/£/euros Victuallers (talk) 17:43, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Exactly, Victuallers! Google is the perfect example. Megalibrarygirl YES! now can you scale Shirley's image so that it is the same size and head crop as our original logo? SusunW (talk) 17:55, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

@SusunW: How's this? Megalibrarygirl (talk) 18:21, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Megalibrarygirl I LOVE IT! SusunW (talk) 18:24, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

SusunW Yippee! I also tweaked the other image. :) Megalibrarygirl (talk) 18:27, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Profile of Argentinian politician for WiR.

Megalibrarygirl Awesome! I really, really like them both. Keeps the continuity of our idea and gives us variables. SusunW (talk) 18:31, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Delle donne illustri italiane dal XIII al XIX secolo

An interesting source has turned up a couple of times now as I've been searching for material on a number of obscure Italian pastellists I've been finding in other sources. It's an Italian publication titled Delle donne illustri italiane dal XIII al XIX secolo, and it dates to 1840: here is the link. (There is, I believe, a later edition dating to 1855 or so, but I haven't looked at that.) It seems like it could be very useful in developing biographies of pre-20th century Italian women, a field in which I find there's a lot of research left to do. --Ser Amantio di Nicolao^{Che dicono a Signa?}_{Lo dicono a Signa.} 17:40, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Pinging Camelia.boban. --Rosiestep (talk) 02:56, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Thinking out loud here...

A comprehensive women's history timeline would be amazing. Has anyone done this? Something like this could be made into a book on Wikibooks for budding Women's studies students. I know how to work the book interface. Barbara (WVS) ✐ ✉ 00:04, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Haven't seen anything that encompasses all women. I ran across women in Theology times lines and things like that, but not all women. SusunW (talk) 00:28, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

while I'm searching for my articles, I always ran across statement like, she was the first women here and there, and I end collecting more names cause while confirming the statement, I ran into other firsts... today I collected two new names and my list of red linkes is sooooo long. --Elisa.rolle (talk) 00:38, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

I like it! And we do need a redlist of the missing ones. --Rosiestep (talk) 02:55, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

This might be a good project to tie into the Woman's history portal that Hmlarson is working on. :) Megalibrarygirl (talk) 18:01, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

@Barbara (WVS): Also, SusunW and I worked on Timeline of women in aviation and I did a Timeline of women in Antarctica. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 18:03, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Luba Marks

After the INCREDIBLY impressive work that you helped with on Thea Tewi, I wonder whether the good members could help me with another very intriguing but VERY elusive woman with a very interesting history? Like Tewi, she had dual notable careers (in this case, ballet dancing and fashion design). Luba Marks, aka Lubov Roudenko, seems to have had quite a few names in her time, and even her history/dates bounce around somewhat - some sources claim she was born in 1915, others suggest she must have been born in 1922. I sense that she was quite creative with her own background, shifting around her dates and biographical details, and all the name changes/tweaks don't help either.... Thank you so much, I've been really stumped on this one for a while. She sounds so interesting (and she was quite stunning) from what I can find on her, but also so elusive. Mabalu (talk) 11:12, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

She was still alive in 1984. [2] Still looking. SusunW (talk) 13:38, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

And they lived in Manhattan in the 1960s. [3] SusunW (talk) 14:01, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Mabalu I'm thinking 28 November 1921 is probably correct [4]. Every border crossing indicates born 1921/1922. Surely she would've had to show a passport or something legal to cross? This 1938 entry [5] looks to be her first and corresponds with the age of 17 given in this newspaper article from 1939 [6]. SusunW (talk) 14:31, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Gosh, you are GOOD at this. I'd never have thought to look up "Laubow Rudenko" (clearly a mis-reading). Thank you so much!!! I need to get used to looking at the Mormon records more.... Mabalu (talk) 14:36, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Mabalu I love research. And for women, at some point original records always seem to be required. And THAT name yields this [7]. Still in New York, possibly now Luba M Begazy. Why did she stop living there in 2008? Death? SusunW (talk) 14:41, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Or perhaps transferred to a retirement home, if there isn't a death record? Unfortunately I think we need to put the Begazy bit on a back burner, until we can confirm a link, but it sounds very plausible! Mabalu (talk) 14:53, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Mabalu Totally agree. Cannot find a RS to confirm the Begazy part, thus it is intriguing, but not verifiable. I find nothing else after that 1984 clipping on Marks and no Begazy in the newspaper at all. Checked newspapers.com, newspaperarchives.com, old fulton collection, NY state collection and google's newspaper collections. SusunW (talk) 15:03, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Interesting article from the Royal Society of Chemistry

I've just been reading Improving gender balance on Wikipedia with great interest. It documents the efforts of Claire Murray, Alice White and Jess Wade to encourage better coverage of women in chemistry through a series of Women in Chemistry wikithons, one every month. I think we need to follow this up more closely. It would be good to have the user names of these enterprising educators. I believe one might be Jesswade88. Perhaps Victuallers is already in touch?--Ipigott (talk) 14:52, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Oh he is. Alice, Jess and Claire are regular twitter partners - and we re/ and create tweets a lot of their stuff. Another one is coming up in Swansea. Whilst on the subject I'm told that WikiIndia are planning monthly editathons like the WiR ones in Edinburgh. Victuallers (talk) 15:01, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

I see a Wikithon was held on 17 August. We should look for the articles created.--Ipigott (talk) 15:06, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

And here's a list of participants and articles worked on.--Ipigott (talk) 15:09, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, and I see Alice White is Zeromonk. I'm sure you're helping them along, Roger, but we could all pitch in and offer help to those who want to continue editing. Is there anything we can do to support the Swansea event?--Ipigott (talk) 15:16, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Not sure, I have just made the offer to them. I guess we need some cross posters. #wikiwomeninred gets tweeted maybe once an hour or less (I'm really guessing) with new stuff. We tweet new articles maybe 10 times a day. My focus is there and on the #51-#53 projects at the mo. The biggest news at present in with Wikimedia Nigeria has signed a memo of understanding with a local radio station to work on gender issues. HTT Victuallers (talk) 18:51, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

I attended the event and have been following it up. For example, I just nominated one of the articles for DYK. It could use some further attention and so it goes. Andrew D. (talk) 18:56, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Christel Hoffmann

Christel Hoffmann (WP:BLP-PRODed) looks like it could be rescued, if somebody feels like putting in a little effort in looking for sources. --Hegvald (talk) 13:34, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

I added two accessible sources on awards, one German one international. Which is enough to remove the PROD until someone who speaks German can look at the book sources and links that are out there in German. Pinging @Gerda Arendt and Ipigott: to see if they can help. SusunW (talk) 15:48, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

I'll probably have time to look at this tomorrow.--Ipigott (talk) 08:01, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Norma Stitz

Hi all. Can I ask for thoughts/opinions about whether having the world's biggest breasts makes a woman notable enough for a Wikipedia article? Deletion review here. Thanks. --Hillbillyholiday (talk) 13:48, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

No it does not, but if reliable sources over time confirm that she is unique, then yes... The sources on the article do not meet WP requirements for reliable sources, i.e. Pophangover does not appear to be a curated site, the ITV link is dead, and neither the the Daily Mail nor Linked in are reliable sources. That leaves the file with two sources, the Mirror and Huffington Post which are insufficient to provide adequate coverage to create a comprehensive encyclopedic entry. A search for additional RS yields only one additional RS [8]. She fails GNG. Evaluating from the PORN BIO guidelines, she does not meet any of the criteria: no industry award; not a trendsetter nor and industry Hall of Fame inductee (the Guinness Book of Records is a broad-spectrum collector and not specific to the porn industry, nor is it an award); two times does not "featured multiple times in notable mainstream media" make. SusunW (talk) 15:35, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to look into it, Susun -- I largely agree. I would suggest (and policy actually states) that tabloids like The Mirror and NYPost aren't suitable sources for a BLP. Huffpo isn't great either. Hopefully the AfD will be re-opened so others can weigh in. --Hillbillyholiday (talk) 15:43, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Hillbillyholiday I agree with your analysis that they don't meet the standards for BLP, but they are mainstream media. Very weak sources, and certainly not adequate for the BLP. The key here is that the AfD has to state policy-based reasons for deletion. As far as I can tell, she fails to meet our notability standards. SusunW (talk) 15:53, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Article up for deletion again: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Norma Stitz (3rd nomination) --Hillbillyholiday (talk) 11:40, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Orlando

I have access to Cambridge University Press, but it doesn't allow me to access Orlando, their project which deals exclusively with women writers. As such, I cannot access more details on Kathleen Innes and am wondering if anyone else has full access to this source and can either expand the article or e-mail the content? SusunW (talk) 15:36, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Oh me, I just found the most amazing document about Innes—apparently the first biography of her that has been written. Reading the story of how Kathryn Harvey got interested in Innes and what she went through to develop the biography is almost as interesting as the story itself...Harvey's bewilderment at not being able to find more information on such an internationally known figure parallels what we endure to present women's biographies. The introduction is well worth a read if anyone is interested [9] SusunW (talk) 16:58, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

WikiProject Women template on Women in Red editathon talkpages

Hi Dthomsen8. I noticed you added the {{WikiProject Women}} template to WikiProject Women in Red editathon talkpages here, here, and here. Simply curious why as I hadn't noticed it added to previous WiR editathon talkpages. Thanks! --Rosiestep (talk) 03:25, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

September 2017 at Women in Red

		Welcome to Women in Red's September 2017 worldwide online editathons.
		"Hispanic and Latina Women" "Women in the Olympics" "Women from New Zealand"

(To subscribe: Women in Red/English language list and Women in Red/international list. Unsubscribe: Women in Red/Opt-out list) --

--Megalibrarygirl (talk) 21:19, 28 August 2017 (UTC) via MassMessaging

Jeannie Rousseau

The article on Jeannie Rousseau, a French spy for Allied Focrced who died recently, could use eyes/tweaks/copyediting, if anyone is interested.104.163.159.99 (talk) 09:05, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Have tidied it up a bit but it could still be further expanded. Perhaps this is something for SusunW--Ipigott (talk) 12:52, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Red link proposal

Hi! Since we are a group that deals with redlinks, you may want to read or comment on an ongoing discussion about redlinks on this page. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 16:53, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Draft:Anna Baumgart

Listed for immediate deletion G13, this is a stale draft created during an Art Feminism edit-a-thon in 2016. Someone like to complete it before I delete it? Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:06, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Kudpung Thank you so much for bringing it to our attention. I'll see if I can find any references. A quick hit of the databases show there's something there. I'll give it a shot and if I can't find enough suitable references, let's delete it. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 16:51, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Kudpung, she's a keeper for sure. She has works in 3 museums in Poland, so would pass CREATIVE. Should pass GNG, too, though I'm not fluent in Polish. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 17:07, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Thank you very much for that, Megalibrarygirl. There are around 3,000 drafts that risk being summarily deleted following the policy change. While I'm in favour of that change, they all need to be looked at carefully before deletion. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 21:27, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

No problem, Kudpung, I am happy to help! :) If you see anything else you think may be of interest to the project, don't hesitate to let us know. In addition, if you have a link to the 3,000 drafts, we can be proactive and comb through them ourselves. :) Megalibrarygirl (talk) 21:40, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

WP:G13 speedy deletion criterion now applies to any page in the draftspace that has not been edited in six months. There is a bot-generated report, updated daily, to help identify potentially G13 qualifying drafts.Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:46, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Starting September 7th

This trial, which effects new editors, starts on Thursday: Wikipedia:Autoconfirmed article creation trial. --Rosiestep (talk) 04:55, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

AfD Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pearlretta DuPuy

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pearlretta DuPuy, I gave my reason to keep the article, it's true there are few sources, but mainly cause what was in the PD source already covered what I could find in newspaper.com. If someone want to help improve the article and/or give they opinion in the AfD, it would be appreciated. Elisa.rolle (talk) 21:27, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Even if SusunW helped (thank you the zither fact was very nice) I fear this article will be deleted. I do not think is right, President of Club Woman in the 1920s are the main reason why women emancipated in the United States, but if they continue to apply modern and "male" standard of research, these women articles will never survive... Elisa.rolle (talk) 23:16, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

I think the best you can hope for is to add information about her to the clubs she was involved in so the information is not lost if she is deleted. If the article were given time to grow and the organizations she was involved in were researched, you might find sufficient notability. But that being said, developing a biography that will withstand AfD, unless the woman is very high profile is indeed difficult for this time period. SusunW (talk) 23:31, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Elisa.rolle I think Montanabw's comment is apt, if she were a 21st century woman, with the sourcing you have this would be less likely to be questioned. The bias toward recentism, combined with the idea that "if a full-length biography hasn't already been written then it's not notable" is real. The reality is that it is highly doubtful that a lot of scholarship is focusing on historic zither performers. ;) It is notable that she worked at a profession in the time frame, was noted in multiple states, and was elected as a club president. You are doing well on your article creations, don't let it worry you overmuch if a few become targets. SusunW (talk) 17:05, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

Uma Thurman stalking case

Hi, all. Opinions are needed on the following matter: Talk:Uma Thurman#Request for comment. A permalink for it is here. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 17:48, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

Women scientists pictures

Hi. On the Wikipedia Libraries facebook page, i saw a post about adding faces to article about women scientists. I thought that Women in Red would be interested in taking part as well. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 23:28, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

Women in Missing enclyopedic articles wikiproject

I\ve noticed that there are multiple lists on women on the Missing enclyopedic articles wikiproject. I was wondering if we could help with those redlists as well and pool all of our resources together. We would be able to go through these lists while having more women to add to wiki. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 04:54, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks MrLinkinPark333 for reminding us about this listing. I think many of us must have drawn on this over the years. I'm also pretty sure we have included many of the names and sources in our WiR lists. Nevertheless, I've now looked rather carefully at the listing as it stands today and must agree with you that we could enhance some of our crowd-sourced WiR lists by drawing on it. It seems to me that the most useful lists for WiR are probably those dealing with women from the English-speaking countries as thanks to Wikidata, we are now able to display lengthy lists of women from the non English-speaking countries who are covered in the other language versions of Wikipedia. I don't know to what extent we should try to incorporate these lists systematically in our WiR lists. It may be more useful to deal with them in connection with our monthly editathon priorities. It might also be useful to link to some of the sections on our #1day1woman page. Or maybe we could draw up a sublist, specifically focused on women's biographies. I also note that many of the sections have been extensively covered. It might be useful to eliminate all the blue links and examine whether the remaining names are sufficiently notable. I'm sure Megalibrarygirl will have some useful comments to make on how we can best make use of all these red links.--Ipigott (talk) 10:34, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing it to my attention, Ipigott and MrLinkinPark333. I'll definitely take a look at it. :) Megalibrarygirl (talk) 17:00, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

A Woman of the Century

May someone help me understand one topic? the image from A Woman of the Century, originally uploaded on Wikimedia are mostly blurred and sometime so badly ruined (with black blotch on them) that other editors refused to use them (there was once one user that told me it was vandalized... it was not it was just the scan was a bad one). Now if I found a better scan, I have replaced them. Now the original uploader said I should not: here is an example where they complained: [10] but what is the purpose of maintaining a bad quality picture when it can be replaced with a better one from the same source? --Elisa.rolle (talk) 16:47, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

I know diddly squat about photographs. Perhaps @Victuallers and MrLinkinPark333: can help? SusunW (talk) 21:36, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

I think I can help here. The pictures are scanned not for Wikipedia but for wikisource. This project is trying to create a trasncribed facsimile of the original book. They have scanned the 1400 biogs and they have very carefully recreated the text and then added in the pictures which they have digitally cut from the original book. (The Wikisource project are supplying 90% of lots/many of "our" articles). If Wikipedia wants to use these images then that is fine - however when you find a better image its like finding the original cover of Batman#1. That's great but the owner of Batman #1 is going to be a bit peeved when you tear out his cover cos you have a better one. The solution is load up a new image and use that in Wikipedia. That will leave the Wikisource people to achieve their objective. Hope that helps. Victuallers (talk) 22:08, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

The above link to the file doesn't work. However, it's on wikipedia, not commons. In regards to wikisource, i haven't contributed to that project. If Victuallers helped you out, that's great. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 22:12, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

Understood. I will create new uploads, but Victuallers, leaving file like this one is Wikimedia: [11] is sort of an "offence" to the purpose of wikimedia... Elisa.rolle (talk) 14:48, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

The problem is not that the poorer quality is preferred, but that the image you replaced it with is a different image altogether. The image no longer matches the metadata of the image, so that is why it is not allowed. You can upload a better scan from a different source and then link it to the old scan, but don't replace the old scan as it is part of a set. Jane (talk) 16:16, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

Ulrike Reinhard

Ulrike Reinhard needs additional sources. There seem to be sources in German. Can any German speakers take a look and if you find any RS, add them to the article or send them to me and I'll paste them up? Thanks! Megalibrarygirl (talk) 22:29, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

We should be careful about articles tagged by this new editor, CelenaSkaggs. Apparently she's only just joined us. See also Julia Schramm and the probably rather less notable Darinka Montico.--Ipigott (talk) 10:01, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Adding missing images of women

Hi there. I was wondering if there was a list somewhere for Women in Red that had articles of women that are missing an image of them (such as in their infobox).

I am currently adding missing photos of Canadian women that appear in through 100 Canadian Heroines, and plan to do the same for 100 more Canadian Heroines.

If there isn't, I was wondering if a worklist could be made to help upgrade women articles that already have an article but are missing an image. Thanks. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 21:31, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

I remember reading somewhere in these pages about Wikidata lists of photographs that had no articles, but not the other way around. I am sure there are tons of articles without photographs. I try really hard to find images on all the articles I write, but the great majority of them must be loaded as fair use, which only works if they are dead. SusunW (talk) 22:31, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

There is indeed a huge problem of copyright associated with images on Wikipedia. Most of the biographies on living women therefore do not have photographs of the person in question. I frequently try to include a site under External links where photographs can be viewed. Another option is to invite the person behind the article to provide an image, preferably by adding it to Wikimedia Commons or providing a Creative Commons license on Flickr. I certainly agree with you, MrLinkinPark333, that images make articles far more attractive. I see you have already done a fair amount of work on adding or improving images recently. Keep up the good work. And I'm glad you've become a member of WiR. If ever you run into any problems, please let us know.--Ipigott (talk) 09:51, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

And so if you are keeping a list, MrLinkinPark333 I cannot believe I could find no usable images for fashion designer Wendy Ponca or Native Alaskan activist Mary Jane Fate. Both are national figures and extremely well known, but I could find nada that fits our copyright regs. SusunW (talk) 22:41, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

@SusunW: I'm currently looking at biographies at the two linked above books. If you or others are interested in making a worklist of other women needing articles, I'll be happy to join. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 22:44, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

My technical skills are horrid on WP. Mayhaps Megalibrarygirl could make a list that we could add names to? Like a Most Wanted Photos list or something ;) SusunW (talk) 22:51, 24 August 2017 (UTC)])

That'd be interesting to see. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 23:07, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

One thing we could do when we add articles to the outcomes section of our editathons is indicate if the article needs a photo. I'd be glad to add that to articles created in August if you think it would be beneficial. Also, I've tweeted 3 August-created articles using this image in lieu of a photo but don't know what the readers think of that. --Rosiestep (talk) 00:25, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

@Rosiestep, SusunW, and MrLinkinPark333: I love this idea about most wanted photos! I wonder if we could work with Commons on such a project? I'll try getting a list together shortly. We could make a template, too. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 18:59, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Megalibrarygirl, you just triggered an idea! There is a template {{Image requested}} for talk pages, but who gets it, I have no idea. I also must admit that I forget to put it on articles. If we systematically put it on articles, would there be a way to compile a list of WiR articles with that template? SusunW (talk) 19:06, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

SusunW Nice idea! I think we can see a list of all the articles that a template is being used on... I think! We can try to do that more often. I know I always forget to do that, too. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 19:09, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

There's a Wikipedia requested images of women category but there's a lot of categories in Wikipedia requested images of people that might be looking through --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 19:26, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

@Megalibrarygirl, SusunW, and MrLinkinPark333: - Does {{Image requested}} work the same as {{WikiProject Biography|needs-photo=yes}}? Plus, I, too, have trouble remembering to add either of these to talkpages on a regular basis. --Rosiestep (talk) 19:44, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Rosiestep I have no idea. But, Sue and I just added it to the essay as a step, since mayhaps that will help us remember ;) SusunW (talk) 19:46, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

{{Image requested|people}} is the same as the wikiproject biogrpahy one--MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 19:50, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, @SusunW and MrLinkinPark333: So, it's an experiment, but I just added NAP ("needs a photo") after each article which is missing a photo on this meetup page. Take a look? --Rosiestep (talk) 19:57, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

NAP looks alright to tag the articles with. How can we track the created/upgraded articles that require images from previous and future meetups? Tagging them as NAP can be useful when the meetup is happening, but afterwards we would forget that they would still need an image. Also, there are women that need images that were not part of the meetups as well --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 20:05, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Ditto what MLP333 said. But, glad we are talking about this and hope we find some solutions :) SusunW (talk) 20:09, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Another thing that came to mind. Some women articles that didn't have articles I've found a image for and uploaded to Commons i.e. Martha Black, Noel MacDonald and Mary Riter Hamilton. Though Commons may not have a picture, if the picture falls under public domain, they could be used to fulfill the missing image. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 20:13, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

I might try using something like this when tweeting articles which need a pic. We have 1,146 followers on Twitter and some might be inclined to help. --Rosiestep (talk) 20:33, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

I added the image needed template to the sign-up sheets for next month's editathons and 1day1woman for things to add to the talk page. Maybe that will help too. SusunW (talk) 21:12, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

One advantage to using the {{Image Requested}} (or other forms like {{Photo requested}}) is you can specify extra parameters. Here's an example from one bio I wrote a long time ago: {{Photo requested|people|artists and entertainers|television people|in=New York City}} The extra parameters add categories to the talk page that call it to the attention of folks who go out looking to take photos. In this case it added it to three categories: "Wikipedia requested images of artists and entertainers", "Wikipedia requested images of television people" and "Wikipedia requested photographs in New York City" If your subject is alive and primarily associated with a particular location, I highly recommend the in= parameter which creates that last location-specific category. That will call it to the attention of the WikiProject for that locality. That way, photographers looking for something to do might be able to go through their files or even go seek out the person to get a photo of them. This will help get beyond the bubble of this Wikiproject. --Krelnik (talk) 19:26, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

@MrLinkinPark333: You can use Wikidata for that. Currently in English Wikipedia, there are 87,184 female biographies with image and 183,809 without image.

SELECT DISTINCT ?item
WHERE {
    ?item wdt:P31 wd:Q5. #human
    ?item wdt:P21 wd:Q6581072. #female
    OPTIONAL { ?item wdt:P18 ?image } . FILTER(!BOUND(?image)). #no image
    OPTIONAL { ?sitelink schema:about ?item . ?sitelink schema:inLanguage "en" } . FILTER(BOUND(?sitelink)). # exists in enwp
}

Using https://query.wikidata.org you can generate any list of biographies that are missing images, filtering by country, century, occupation, etc.

SELECT DISTINCT ?item ?itemLabel
WHERE {
    ?item wdt:P31 wd:Q5. #human
    ?item wdt:P21 wd:Q6581072. #female
    ?item wdt:P27 wd:Q16. #nationality=Canada
    ?item wdt:P106 wd:Q36180. #occupation=writer
    ?item wdt:P569 ?birthdate . FILTER(YEAR(?birthdate) >= 1800) . FILTER(YEAR(?birthdate) < 1900). #birthyear
    OPTIONAL { ?item wdt:P18 ?image } . FILTER(!BOUND(?image)). #no image
    OPTIONAL { ?sitelink schema:about ?item . ?sitelink schema:inLanguage "en" } . FILTER(BOUND(?sitelink)). #exists in enwp
    SERVICE wikibase:label { bd:serviceParam wikibase:language "[AUTO_LANGUAGE],en". }
}
ORDER BY ASC(?itemLabel)

If you need help generating any list, ask me. emijrp (talk) 14:29, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Take a look?

I had a sociology professor ask about getting an article on Wikipedia. Since she's someone that Wiki Education is talking to, it would be a COI for me to create an article for her if she passes NPROF or general notability. A quick glance shows that she may pass notability guidelines, but I didn't have a chance to look deeper. I put in a request at the basic catch-all request page for sociology related articles, but that may take forever before someone looks at it. Since she's a woman teaching science, I thought that it would be good to mention her here as well. I'm not giving her any promises and I told her that it's actually pretty hard to get an article, so no worries if she fails notability guidelines. Here's what I posted at the request board:

Jennie Brand - Sociology professor at UCLA. Been published in the Annual Review of Sociology, American Journal of Sociology, Social Forces, and American Sociological Review, among others. Looks like her work has received some attention as well ([12])

Hopefully she'll pass, but again - no worries if it she doesn't. Shalor (Wiki Ed) (talk) 22:05, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

I wrote a really long response to you Shalor (Wiki Ed) but because of an edit conflict, it is gone. I cannot find it, and do not have time to do the research again. Bottom line, she does not meet WP criteria at this time. There are insufficient independent RS to create a biographical entry for her without doing original research. I find only two or three articles that name check her and only two articles about her work. None give any information about her. We cannot use information from her or from her employer as they are not independent. This is not to say she is not notable, only that she doesn't meet Wikipedia criteria. Sorry. SusunW (talk) 23:34, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for checking! I was afraid that she wouldn't pass. If she asks for a follow up I'll let her know. Thank you again! Shalor (Wiki Ed) (talk) 00:08, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
- I think she does pass WP:PROF#C1, based on heavy citations to some of her publications [13]. But we also need to have reliably-published sources (about her rather than by her) to give us enough information about her to prevent the article from looking like a cv (a common reason for deletion proposals). Unfortunately I can't find much — sources like this one are both insufficiently detailed and insufficiently independent. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:40, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

Discord channel possibility?

I was wondering if anyone in Women in Red/Wikiproject Women would be interested in joining a discord channel for Wikipedia. If you do, please let me know and I'll forward the request --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 23:21, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

What is a discord channel? Can you direct us to an example? Xxanthippe (talk) 00:31, 17 September 2017 (UTC).

A Discord channel is an online chat server that requires a download for it to work. It's kinda like skype, expect that you can talk with more people at once. One of the channels I'm currently on is Wikimedia Community. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 02:17, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Thx. 04:12, 17 September 2017 (UTC).

Biography percentage over time

Hi all,
I love watching the biography gender balance percentage tick up. I was wondering if anyone has a dataset of how it has changed over time? Ideally as far back as possible, if the stats are gather-able. I'd like to graph how it has changed, but can't find anything before 2015. T.Shafee(Evo&Evo)^talk 10:37, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Evolution and evolvability: To the best of my knowledge, interest in the statistical approach began in 2015. Prior to that, there was discussion of the relatively small percentage of women editors rather than the number of women's biographies or articles about women's organizations and works. You can see some of the relevant research reports here.--Ipigott (talk) 09:50, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Movement strategy draft #2

Please take a look at 2030 movement strategy draft version #2. What do you think of it? --Rosiestep (talk) 22:30, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

Headed in the direction I would like to see us head, but still missing the how we do that part. SusunW (talk) 00:29, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Two rather general comments: 1) I think trying to define a strategy (or even a "strategic direction") for 2030 is unrealistic. It would be far more useful to aim for concrete improvements over the next two to three years. 2) Some of the priorities (and the peacock language in which they are expressed) are reminiscent of the meaningless goals so often presented by politicians or commercial companies. Examples are "Together, we will advance our world by compiling knowledge that fully represents human diversity, and by building the foundations that enable others to do the same." and "We will break down the social, political, and technical barriers preventing people from accessing and contributing to free knowledge." I would have preferred to see a set of specific problems matched by possible solutions and realistic implementation methods. And last but not least, the current document could benefit from some pretty drastic copy editing.--Ipigott (talk) 08:27, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Pia Siemer's report in German on the WikiCon conference in Leipzig comments both on Women in Red and the 2030 strategic planning.--Ipigott (talk) 10:10, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Vine Colby

May you help me establishing notability for this article Vine Colby to avoid deletion or redirection? I thouht the 24 sources were enough (and there were more than 100 I just picked those which were most interesting) but it was tagged nevertheless. --Elisa.rolle (talk) 22:48, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Elisa.rolle: I see it was Yoninah who tagged the article. I tend to agree with her that much of the article deals with her family and "The Potters". The references you give mention her education and works but there is little mention of her notability. On the other hand, I realize it is difficult to find good secondary sources for a woman who participated in an artists' group at the beginning of the 20th century. I think this reference is telling in that Colby was remembered some time later as being a member of the Potters. There also seem to be works she wrote as Vine McCasland, including "Circus" and its assessment. Interestingly, it was selected by the British Council. Given this and your more recent additions to the article, I think the tag can be removed. I really appreciate all the work you have been doing on these early American women. It all helps to make Wikipedia a better encyclopaedia. Keep up the good work.--Ipigott (talk) 11:04, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Thai

Check it out! The newest language Wikipedia in the WiR universe is Thai! --Rosiestep (talk) 14:35, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Woot! SusunW (talk) 15:08, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Congrats :-)♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:13, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Caroline Estes Smith

Help in researching further a possible good hint: in the 1928's book "Women of the West" it's stated that Caroline Estes Smith was member of the Uplifters Club, but in the specific wikipedia article, The Uplifters, it says that the club admitted woman only in 2015... now already the fact a woman was part of a uplifters club in 1928 was something "odd" but moreover considering Caroline Estes Smith was the manager of the Los Angeles Philarmonic Orchestra... A classic music lover AND an uplifter? now the only connection I found is that her previous boss, William Andrews Clark Jr. was a member of the club... could be that her membership was sort of connected to him? --Elisa.rolle (talk) 21:16, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

Seems to me our article on the Uplifters is misleading at best. I guess by "the war" it means World War II and I guess by focusing on the hijinx, they left out the part that it was basically just an exclusive country club for members of the film industry. "Behind the Canyon was the Will Rogers estate and the Uplifter’s Club, a kind of semi-wild country club with a golf course and polo grounds". page 57 And it wasn't dissolved, it was sold [14]. From at least 1928, they had a women's polo team [15] and Rena Rogers, aka Mrs. Frank Borzage organized the club's women's polo team in 1936 page 313 So, in any case, women could certainly attend, though possibly not become members, which was the case in many country clubs. On your Smith file, this [16] is a pretty nice article about her (and a good photo published in 1923). SusunW (talk) 22:53, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

Elisa.rolle sometimes men's-only clubs had auxiliary membership for women. That may be how she was involved. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 22:55, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, in the article linked by SusunW it says she was "junonic" but nothing about her being an uplifters... well it was probably just an hobby Elisa.rolle (talk) 23:06, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

Is there really no article on Philharmonic Orchestra of Los Angeles?♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:22, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

AfC submission - Dorothy McRae-McMahon - Review help, please

I am part of an Australian Women Write Wiki group based at The Women's Library, Newtown. Another member has been prepared an entry for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Dorothy_McRae-McMahon We understand that it's better to copy an entry into a page created via a Red Link and will do this in future. The article is in Drafts and needs a Wikipedia editor to assess and (hopefully) approve it. Please help! Oronsay (talk) 00:52, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Welcome Oronsay! I have made a cursory glance at the article and will review it in depth. There are several sourcing issues, and I would suggest that you read WP:WMN. She cannot be her own source, Simon and Schuster as a promoter of her works is considered not a reliable source, nor is YouTube a reliable source. I will look at the other sources and evaluate them. The bar is high for living people and currently the sourcing appears to be inadequate. SusunW (talk) 16:56, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Oronsay, I have reviewed the sourcing and I think there are problems with most of them meeting independent RS requirements. This is not to say she is not notable. Clearly that is not an issue and clearly there are adequate RS over time to verify that she is. There are also sources which confirm her notability has extended beyond Australia, which should be used to confirm that she is not simply a regional figure. Here are my suggestions to improve the article. I did not make changes, as I learn from doing it myself, but if you want my help, I'll be glad to pitch in.

Remove any information (children's names) that might lead to identity theft of a living person.
Insert links where you can. Off-line materials are acceptable, but if there are links, they should be included, such as The Age citation needs a link inserted [17] (By the way, I always try to utilize Wayback archived references in the event that the provider changes their domain. Insert the http:www part in url and the archive link in archiveurl with the archivedate).
Where possible, add isbn numbers to her publications list to allow independent confirmation of the works.
Remove any sources which are not reliable, independent secondary sources. This means all the citations for Memoirs of Moving On, YouTube, Living on the Margins and Simon&Schuster need to be removed. Trove as well, as it is a duplicate of The Australian Women's Register. On the awards, you should replace them with secondary sources, if possible, as sources from the organization providing the reward, are typically viewed as promotional. (I cannot access the link on the Edna Ryan Awards, says it is infected). Replace them with sources which are reliable. For example:[18], [19] confirms almost all details in the first paragraph which are not covered in the The Encyclopedia of Women & Leadership in Twentieth-Century Australia entry, which is a reliable source. (newspapers.com clippings should be indicated as derived from that source by placing "|via = Newspapers.com}} " before your final reference ending, i.e. <ref name="Lukas1983">{{cite news|last1=Lukas|first1=Isabel|title=Minister plans new role for City church|url=https://www.newspapers.com/clip/13556602/the_sydney_morning_herald/|accessdate=4 September 2017|publisher=''[[The Sydney Morning Herald]]''|date=8 February, 1983|location=Sydney, NSW, Australia|page=9|via = [[Newspapers.com]]}} {{open access}}</ref>
She designed the logo for the Uniting Church two years before the organization officially began services. [20]
Involvement in women's causes [21], [22]
Backlash for human rights work [23], [24], [25] and [26], [27]
Human rights award from independent source [28]
LGBT effect on her and church [29] and [30]; [31]; [32]; [33]
Supporter of Australian republican movement [34], [35], [36]
Edna Ryan Award [37]
Honour Awards [38]

Our time zones are completely out of sync if you are in Australia, since I live in Mexico; but if you post here and ping me, or on my talk page, I'll get back to you as quickly as I can. SusunW (talk) 20:04, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

The entry in The Encyclopedia of Women & Leadership is ample evidence of notability. Per Oronsay's request and WP:BOLD, I shall move the page into mainspace. Andrew D. (talk) 21:36, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

@Oronsay: I think she meets notability requirements, but try to avoid bullet points for things like children.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:51, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

WikiData merge?

Is it possible to merge two WikiData entries? In looking at the list for the New Zealand editathon, I notice that the same artist appears to have two separate WikiData entries, as A.M. Plante (Q20887169) and as Ada May Plante (Q21535113). Or is there some reason not obvious to me to keep both? Alafarge (talk) 19:35, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Alafarge I've had this problem before and someone manually had to merge it for me. There was a choice that said "merge" but no instructions on how to do it. Wikidata merge. Maybe this exchange helps? SusunW (talk) 20:28, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

wikidata:Help:Merge are Wikidata's instructions. I've never tried them though! Thincat (talk) 22:24, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Jane023 has assisted me with Wikidata merges. --Rosiestep (talk) 01:42, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Tried merging but the issue is on cywiki - the two articles there need to be merged (seem to be duplicates of each other). In this case Wikidata is not to blame ;) and fixing it can be done by anyone who can navigate the merge templates on any wikipedia (go to the template, look up the cy version, and add it to the page). Jane (talk) 07:00, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, I appreciate all this info. Looks like it will take a bit of time to figure out how to do it without making mistakes. Alafarge (talk) 17:43, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Hi Llywelyn2000 - Would you please merge cy:A. M. Plante into cy:Ada May Plante? Seems like that has to precede the Wikidata merge. Thanks. --Rosiestep (talk) 18:06, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. I tried putting the merge template on the A. M. version but I see that the cy merge template is a bit broken too. See here]. It's probably better to merge it myself, but I only do merges in languages I actually speak (I had a problem in Japanese that took over a year to resolve, but it was eventually done because their merge template actually works). Jane (talk) 10:05, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

All done! Thanks! Llywelyn2000 (talk)

How is my old buddy Llywelyn2000? We'll do a another Dragon contest sometime!♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:55, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Keeping well, thanks! Yes, that would be good! Keep in touch! Llywelyn2000 (talk) 01:21, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Focus on Nigeria

I have just seen here that Olaniyan Olushola, head of Wikimedia User Group Nigeria, is joining up with WFM, Nigeria's only radio station for women, and Wiki Loves Women to launch monthly editathons in order to promote the coverage of Nigerian women in collaboration with female students. I hope we will receive more precise details of these events so that we can help with red links and general assistance. (cc. Anthere)--Ipigott (talk) 13:59, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

This is good Ipigott but we need to be careful with this so as not to offend anybody.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:13, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Dr. Blofeld I certainly wouldn't like to offend anyone and don't see why you think this could be offensive. I always welcome efforts to promote coverage of women in countries where they deserve more attention. I just thought that if we collaborate on this, we might make even more progress.--Ipigott (talk) 20:36, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

I was assuming that the worry was the usual one with editathons: new editors create articles that do not clearly demonstrate the notability of their subjects, new page reviewers push for those articles to be deleted, and the new editors get offended because their hard work has come to nothing. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:43, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Of course not Ian, and I agree that we should collaborate, providing that the Nigerian group are OK with it.♦ Dr. Blofeld 07:39, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red/The World Contest

Just to announce that this contest will be going ahead in November for one month. The minimum requirement for new entries will be 1000 bytes of readable prose given that many women on the lists are often difficult to find a great deal of content for. We're aiming to get new articles on women from every country on the planet. Please sign up on the page and participate if you haven't already. If you have any ideas for content or running the contest feel free to air on the talk page or help build the missing article lists. Though there will be over $4000 to win it's really more a big editathon with rewards for the hardest working individuals. A chance to buy wanted books for wanted or buy subscriptions with a paywall etc.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:17, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Yay! I am so in. SusunW (talk) 16:34, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

I think lots of people will be interested in this! --Rosiestep (talk) 16:22, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Margaret Joyce?

The page title Margaret Joyce is currently redirected to the entry for her husband William Joyce a.k.a. as Lord Haw-Haw, the Nazi propagandist. But there seems to be some level of material about her as a separate individual. Apparently, she was known to radio listeners as "Lady Haw-Haw" and was spared prosecution for high treason, being the only one of 32 British renegades and broadcasters caught in Germany at the end of the war, who was not charged with treason. She died in 1972. Should we consider starting a separate WiR entry for her? jxm (talk) 05:59, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

The only source I have been able to find is this. It makes very interesting reading. Maybe there are press reports from the 1940s which would cast more light on her life.--Ipigott (talk) 11:16, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

What I am finding is that there were a whole bunch of women accused as Lady Haw-Haw. [39], [40], [41], [42]. Joyce, is here: [43], [44] SusunW (talk) 23:09, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Jxm: Given the above sources, may I suggest that you go ahead and create the article.--Ipigott (talk) 10:32, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Oxford National Dictionary of Biography

I think someone has a sandbox page with the list of women of the Oxford National Dictionary of Biography. It would be great if we could copy it and make it into a WiR redlist. Do you know where the list is located? --Rosiestep (talk) 16:33, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

@Rosiestep: Women in Red already has the list here. I'm not sure if someone has a sandbox copy. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 21:31, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Perfect; thanks! --Rosiestep (talk) 21:34, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Thankyou, I will be asking WMUK to support the development of this list for the upcoming world contest.♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:43, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Dr. Blofeld: We also have redlink dictionary lists on Australian dictionary, Canada (western provinces), New Zealand dictionary, U.S. (artists), U.S. (Afro-Americans), U.S. (feminists), U.S. (latinas), U.S. (by State) and U.S. (19th century). See Template Women in Red.--Ipigott (talk) 11:00, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

That's great Ipigott. I think WMUK are more interested in British content but I could extend it to the Commonwealth countries. Given that ODNB is a paid subscription.♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:04, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

ODNB: Paid subscription yes, but (a) still to be available in hardcopy in large libraries (if they've got 12 ft[45] of shelf space to spare for it!) and (b) available online free to members of (almost?) all UK public libraries, who can access it from home once they've got a library ticket. PamD 13:24, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Pam. I think it would be worth doing.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:58, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

By the by, older versions are available at archive.org for those who don't have a subscription. SusunW (talk) 14:24, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

List of Muslim feminists

At a recent AfD, it was suggested that a page listing Muslim feminists be created. I wanted to add a note here, in case anyone watching this page has suggestions or contributions. Best, Smmurphy^(Talk) 13:14, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Smmurphy We already have a pretty good List of feminists. Three of those listed are described as Muslim feminists. I would suggest you simply add any further necessary descriptions and any additional names.--Ipigott (talk) 10:43, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the pointer. Your list actually contains a good deal more than three Muslim Feminists and I'll make sure they are on the other list. Smmurphy^(Talk) 14:35, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Metropolitan Museum of Art Weekly Challenge: Rosa Bonheur's The Horse Fair

Rosa Bonheur's The Horse Fair has been chosen as the first-ever Metropolitan Museum of Art Weekly Challenge for the coming week. There are a lot of resources at the artwork's Met Collection record (see 'Catalogue Entry'), and also lists of other references. We could also benefit from the French Wikipedia version and Commons:Category:The Horse Fair — see the section for Week 1: The Horse Fair (Sept 25 - Oct 1) for more on how to participate, or just get started editing! We also welcome other contributions for Met artworks by women artists during this period.--Pharos (talk) 15:41, 22 September 2017 (UTC)