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Asking candidates about their religion at RfA

Hi everyone. I've waited for the dust to settle a bit before I've felt like bringing this to the attention of the wider community, but something happened at my RfA might have wider implications when it comes to crat moderating decisions, so I figured it is probably worth starting a discussion here about it. I'm talking about questions 6 and 7, specifically. These questions asked:

• I found your answer about editing Jehovas Witnesses notable. Are you a Jehovas Witness, and do you feel that being one could impact on your neutrality when editing and administrating the article (potentially leading to stonewalling)?
• How do you feel about allegations that the Jehovas Witnesses are a cult, and about having a full section on that allegation in the article? I note that the article you are passionate about doesn’t have substantial sourced discussion of external commentary on whether it is a cult in the article, yet it’s a commonly heard real world comment on the JWs I hear frequently.

I answered the questions and I understand the practical reasons for why removing this after the fact would not be a desirable outcome. However, the discussion at BN leaves me a bit concerned for candidates who may be asked similar questions in the future. At least to me, that conversation implies that these types of questions do not be removed by crats and that asking them is fine for COI reasons. My understanding is that our current iteration of the COI guideline is that editing about a religion or former religion is not a COI without other factors being involved (see here). No specific concerns were brought up about my editing to Jehovah's Witnesses (all of which can be seen here), just vague accusations. I do not think the same argument would have been made if I was a random Catholic editor who had made uncontroversial changes to the article we have about the Catholic Church. Given the nature of the questions themselves, I was wondering what the broader community thought about whether these questions should or should not be moderated by crats at RfA. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 04:37, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I personally don't feel questions about faith are appropriate unless the person has divulged their faith and clearly edits in that topic area (e.g. many of the editors at WP:CATHOLIC). I think the allegations are likelier to be brought up for smaller or contentious denominations/faiths compared to mainline denominations. For a personal example, I could expect questions about my editing on Opus Dei but would be surprised to be asked about my editing about the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. — ♠ Ixtal ^{( T / C )} ⁂ Non nobis solum. ♠ 07:09, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Also I think that because of the whole Scientology fiasco religion questions are bound to be asked if someone divulges their faith as a necessary step of due diligence. — ♠ Ixtal ^{( T / C )} ⁂ Non nobis solum. ♠ 07:11, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

We should be careful not to fall into the trap of thinking that WP:COI describes all types of bias. It is only about bias arising from specific external relationships. There are plenty of other characteristics (religion, nationality, sexuality, etc.) that are not an "external relationship" with a specific entity but which we all have and, in certain circumstances, which could make us edit or admin in a non-neutral way. I hope that people wouldn't ask about such things unless there was a genuine reason and evidence that that had happened. However I'd be reluctant to say that these kind of questions are generally inappropriate, because neutrality is important and there could be reasonable grounds for concern. At the end of the day, if a candidate doesn't want to answer a question, they don't have to. – Joe (talk) 07:31, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

• I think it was an inappropriate question, and I think the best option is probably for people to point out that it's an inappropriate question. I wouldn't even object to someone -- anyone, really -- inserting a statement to that effect into the space reserved for the candidate's answer, reminding everyone watching that all of the questions are optional and that in the case of inappropriate questions no one should be opposing on the basis of the candidate deciding not to answer.
  I also wouldn't object to the removal or collapsing of inappropriate questions, although I don't think it should require a 'crat to do that. 'Crats tend to be among the most cautious of admins, really. As seen in that discussion at BN that Clovermoss linked above.
  I don't think we should be drawing up a list of topics that can't be brought up, though. I think it has to be a case-by-case thing. The reason those questions were inappropriate was because they were poorly thought out. If that fairly-inexperienced editor had instead asked, "I see from Q2 that you're interested in editing on JW topics, and I'm concerned from this edit and this userbox that you seem to have a POV about that subject. Would you be willing to avoid adminning around topics related to JW?", it would still have been a somewhat naive question, but not an inappropriate one. Valereee (talk) 12:33, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Inappropriate I concur with Valereee that the questions were inappropriate in particular for how they were asked. If there is a serious concern with regards to COI, then it could be raised. Here, there's just a suspicion they might have a problem in the subject area because they are one, and I agree with Clovermoss. Questions like this can and should be removed, and no it doesn't take a bureaucrat to do it. Some discernment is required before doing so, but this case is clear cut. I'm also rather stunned about the username of the editor who posted the question. "Manboobies"? Seriously? No time right not, but this may be appropriate to take to WP:RFCN. --Hammersoft (talk) 12:47, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm reticent to say "no, we should never ask about religion", as there are going to be some cases where someone would have a COI (at the most obvious level, someone who is employed to a Church). However, faith itself isn't a COI. Having a bias, or being particularly tied towards something (which we all are), doesn't constitute a COI. If it did, we'd all have to edit articles about things we didn't care about. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:38, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

• I know I'm not being fair to RFA candidates under a lot of pressure, and I know RFA voters as a whole are not as rational as I wish, but I would love to see a candidate with the self-confidence to say "This is an inappropriate question and I won't be answering it", and then cross it out, --Floquenbeam (talk) 16:17, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

  1. If I were that person's nominator, I would advise that it probably wouldn't be a productive idea. But I'd love to see a candidate go down that path and succeed. :D Away w'ye, troll! Valereee (talk) 16:40, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

  I mean, I was already pushing some boundaries of what's expected at RfA by being a self nom and responding directly to neutrals and opposes. I don't think the candidate striking questions themselves would be perceived all that well... but maybe that's just a perceived social norm and not what would actually happen. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 21:02, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

  I think it's likely some !voters would be cheering and some would be hissing, and the balance might very well depend on who cheered or hissed first. Candidates shouldn't be expected to moderate their own RfA. Valereee (talk) 21:14, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

  Well, on my RFA I refused to answer question 8. (Not exactly the situation you describe through). Ymblanter (talk) 16:17, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

• It's entirely fair to ask a candidate what areas they feel they can act neutrally in, and where they feel they might be biased. That does not require asking them about their real-world beliefs, which is deeply inappropriate. If someone's RL beliefs have seeped into their editing, then any questions can focus on their editing; if they haven't, the candidate is clearly able to set those beliefs aside and edit neutrally, and they're no business of ours. Vanamonde93 (talk) 16:29, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
• People should *never* be asked to identify their religion. It is a prohibited grounds, and asking that should lead to the questioner being sanctioned, and the question being immediately removed. Period. If a person who wants to submit a question to an RFA can't think of a way to bring up a hypothetical conflict of interest without asking someone their religion, then that person shouldn't ask the question.

  Generally speaking, we should be far less forgiving of asking personal questions of candidates. Questioners should be able to link to specific concerns, or be able to ask about how the candidate will apply specific policies. The sort of nonsense Clovermoss experienced is what is causing problems at RFA, and it could be easily sorted without having a gigantic RFC that leads to nowhere. Risker (talk) 18:54, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

  Easily sorted without an RfC means someone is willing to address concerns without the knowledge they have community backing. I feel like almost all 'crats want to know they're on firm ground, and many admins do. Look at the BN discussion Clovermoss posted. Admins expressed dismay 'crats didn't handle it. 'Crats expressed a desire for caution in such cases. I really feel like 'crats don't pass RfB because they're willing to take risks, and it's not really fair for us to expect them to be willing to do so once they're 'crats. Valereee (talk) 19:23, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

  The reason I've stopped voting in 'crat elections (rare as they may be) is that I genuinely believe a majority of the RFA-participating community really *do* want bureaucrats to intervene when RFAs go to hell in a handbag, and none of the candidates in the last several years have been willing to do that. Enforcing the UCoC on RFA shouldn't be considered a risky activity; if 'crats think it is, then perhaps we need to reconsider the requirements of the role entirely. Risker (talk) 19:50, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

  What does "prohibited grounds" mean? – Joe (talk) 06:55, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

• I'm not sure I'd be in favor of "crats moderating" these questions. If a question is inappropriate, it can be ignored by the candidate. Or even better, calmly and politely state that you're not very comfortable with the question. Or calmly and politely state that you don't think that this is a great question, but then answer it anyway. There's good ways to handle even inappropriate questions. An example answer to I found your answer about editing Jehovas Witnesses notable. Are you a Jehovas Witness, and do you feel that being one could impact on your neutrality when editing and administrating the article (potentially leading to stonewalling)? could be something like Thank you for your question. However I don't feel comfortable disclosing my religion. But I appreciate your concern, and I can assure you that I am aware of Wikipedia's policies on neutrality and reliable sources, and will always do my best to edit neutrally, and to summarize reliable sources rather than injecting my own beliefs about a topic. –Novem Linguae (talk) 19:35, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

  That puts the onus on the candidate, which isn't ideal. Valereee (talk) 19:42, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

  It isn't fair, but administrators will face inappropriate questions and reasoning from upset editors. Being able to see how candidates handle these scenarios is helpful in judging their skillset. And ignoring inappropriate questions is often a perfectly good approach that Wikipedia editors ought to employ more regularly: deny oxygen to the thread. Nonetheless, I also appreciate that in some cases, removing an inappropriate question can be an important measure for the community to express its disapproval. isaacl (talk) 21:36, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

  Let's throw 'em in the deep end, see if they can swim? I certainly would never have ignored a question. Five years ago I was flummoxed by how to deal with opposes who'd never even asked me a question. We learn on the job, and that's not a bad thing. We probably don't actually want admins who are eager to act like admins before they're admins. Valereee (talk) 21:58, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think the skills in dealing with inappropriate questions are unique to administrators. Communication skills are important for all editors, and having examples of them is useful in evaluating the degree of trust you have in any editor. Good communicators are also demonstrating the capacity to learn through discussion, which is key in a collaborative environment. All the same, I do agree I'd prefer to look at examples unrelated to personal matters. isaacl (talk) 23:18, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

  Crats already moderate RfA questions, they just didn't in this situation. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 21:04, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

• Nothing should be done BY RULE. The questions cannot be filtered and excluded, so once they are visible, the appropriate way to deal with it is for the candidate to respond, including a decline - with or without a reason. To do otherwise is a redaction / strike / removal based on someone else being offended. The clear and obvious problem with that is that a candidate may not be offended - and no one can just assume that they are. Leaky caldron (talk) 19:59, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't think these questions were optimal, but a 'crat removing them would be a little too much. And I don't think being a Jehovas Witness means there's a COI; I'm an atheist, but that doesn't mean I have a COI with the Christopher Hitchens article. Cremastra (talk) 20:53, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

These seem like total chickenshit questions to ask a candidate, although I admit I find myself at a loss for how to write an objective rule to reliably distinguish between tough questions and total chickenshit questions. jp×g🗯️ 21:51, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Not sure we need a rule. Just judgment and a willingness to take the risk that you'll overstep in the eyes of the community. Valereee (talk) 21:54, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I think Risker is onto something up there -- it seems like, if the issue actually has anything to do with editing, it ought to be possible to phrase it in those terms. Maybe that is something. But I think that, even if you're not directly asking about some intimate detail, it is still esay to write a question that requires them to disclose it. For example: "I notice that you have a lot of edits to this article, part of which is about acts of mopery committed by the Whateverists. Do you feel like you're biased on the subject of Whateverism, or that you'd recuse yourself from intervening in content disputes about them?" -- it seems extremely difficult to answer this question without saying whether you're a Whateverist, to the point where it might as well just say that. Of course, it'd be possible to artfully avoid that, but I think everyone would notice that you had done so. jp×g🗯️ 22:09, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

• I agree with a lot of the things that have already been said. Asking a candidate their religion is inappropriate. One can ask about perceived POV editing without needing to ask about motivations. I also think it's useful to see how the candidate deals with the situation. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:03, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
• It's not fair to force a candidate to choose between uncomfortably disclosing personal information (which religion very much is) if they respond or risk significant opposition for (understandably) declining to respond. Perhaps it's also worth considering whether one would ask someone they meet for the first time IRL about their religious beliefs – being considered a sensitive topic offline, I don't see why it shouldn't be treated as such on WP. Also, since it's not commonplace for RfA candidates to decline to respond to such a question without potential backlash, it should be up to the crats to moderate when inappropriate questions are asked.

Re the NPOV/COI concerns, I find myself in agreement with Lee Vilenski and Vanamonde93 – people edit about topics important to them all the time in a manner perfectly compliant with WP policy, and are to thank for quality content in those areas. There are plenty of harmless ways to ask about neutrality in editing without asking for personal information. ^Complex/_Rational 22:06, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I think that is very culturally specific. The idea that "faith is a private matter" is, ironically, quite particular to Anglo-American secular/protestant culture. In most parts of the world, you wouldn't ask someone you met about their religion because there wouldn't be any need to. Either it would be obvious because practically everybody you ever meet follows the same religion or, in multi-denominational societies, because religion is the primary structuring factor of your social life and is visible in everything from your name to your dress, dialect, place of residence, etc. – Joe (talk) 07:32, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

• In general, I don't like a ban on asking, although it feels inappropriate unless there is evidence of a conflict of interest. If you saw me posting in Methodist articles in a way that seems like I was promoting Methodism over other faiths, then I would understand why you asked. Asking without demonstrating potential bias is more of a problem. I'm not sure we should "ban" it, however. And I have to admit I agree with Joe above that the "private relationship" is more of a western cultural construct that you don't see in other parts of the world. Where I now live, there would be no need to ask, but few if any would be offended if you did. The person asking the question at RFA might not see asking as taboo, so the question is, do we ban asking under all circumstances as an enforcement of western cultural norms? Dennis Brown - 2¢ 14:18, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

  @Dennis Brown: There are many reasons (from a global perspective) why one might not want to be upfront about such information. For example, if I actually was an active Jehovah's Witness, it would not be wise to say so. If my account was ever linked with my real life identity (I've said things here that go against the religion's beliefs), it'd kickstart a process that would lead to me losing contact with all my friends and family. I'm already an evil apostate so I'm not concerned about that, but it goes to show that these questions aren't nessecarily harmless in nature. Alternatively, imagine I was living in Singapore, China, Russia, or Vietnam... it likely wouldn't be in my best interest to say that I was a member of a religion where it's illegal to actually follow it. I don't see this situation as banning questions as an enforcement of western cultural norms but as moderating questions that may pressure the candidate to share information they might not otherwise be willing to share. If there's concerns about someone's editing, there are ways to phrase those concerns that don't involve asking what their religion is, as others have already pointed out above. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 14:37, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

  I think you raise excellent points, and they show that it is impossible to have a single standard that applies to everyone. I think the best we can do is simply say that if someone wants to decline answering questions like that, we (as a community) should be respectful and not hold that against them. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:08, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

• I agree with Risker's point about raising specific edits as a cause for concern in RfA questions, rather than asking candidates to disclose their religion whilst insinuating that simply being a practitioner of a given faith is potentially indicative of a conflict of interest in editing related articles. I think the question was inappropriate on its face, and becomes even more so when taking into consideration the underlying reasons for asking it. Nobody should ever feel pressured into disclosing private information about themselves on Wikipedia if they are not comfortable doing so. Kurtis ^(talk) 20:45, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Which of these questions should we deem unacceptable?

I propose questions that include the following points should be considered unacceptable and be removed from RFAs:

• Are you gay/straight/bi/gender-fluid and, if so, do you think this will create a problem editing LGBTQ articles? (i.e., questions that include an expectation of revealing the candidate's sexual orientation/gender identity)

• Are you married/single/living common-law/dating and, if so, do you think this will create a conflict of interest in editing articles about marriage? (i.e., questions that include an expectation of revealing the candidate's marital/relationship status)

• Are you Jewish/Catholic/Muslim/etc. and, if so, do you think you can be impartial editing articles about [any or all religions]? (i.e., questions that include an expectation of revealing a candidate's personal beliefs of faith)

• Are you of European/African/Asian etc. descent and, if so, do you think you will have problems editing articles about [name ethnic identity]? (i.e., questions that include an expectation of revealing a candidate's ethnicity and/or race)

• Are you from X country and, if so, do you think it is a conflict of interest in editing articles about X country? (i.e., questions that include an expectation of revealing a candidate's nationality)

• Are you GenX/GenZ/silent generation/boomer, etc. and, if so, do you think there is a problem with you editing articles about another generation? (i.e., questions that include an expectation of revealing a candidate's general age group/cultural group)

I can't think of one of those questions I'd consider acceptable in an RFA; in fact, I'd be concerned and would need lots of contextual understanding to see those questions just about anywhere on this project. What about others? Do you think it is acceptable to have RFA questions that are specifically designed to expect candidates to reveal what we generally consider non-public personal information (if the candidate hasn't already revealed that information)? Risker (talk) 22:04, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree with you, that all of those examples are inappropriate questions. They're all variations on the same theme: asking personal information under the guise of asking about COI. The acceptable alternative would be to link to editing at some page, and to ask about perceived POV editing. No one needs to know the motivation for such a POV, just whether or not it exists. That said, I don't think we need a new rule forbidding such questions. Better to see how the candidate deals with the situation. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:09, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I think these questions are all chickenshit, and I'd say so if I saw somebody ask them. But for all of them, it seems pretty simple to come up with a version that only talks about strictly editing-related issues, but still de facto requires the person to answer the chickenshit part. For example, the one I posted above -- but you could pick any from this list and phrase it like

"Do you expect to intervene in user conduct issues relating to issues of [inappropriately personal thing] or would you recuse yourself from such matters?"

and I think it would still, in practice, require the person either to divulge their status on the issue or do an awkwardly contorted dance around it. Of course, it would clearly be a good idea to explicitly forbid questions such as these, that directly asked about this sort of thing. jp×g🗯️ 22:13, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Potential answer: "It never occurred to me that this would be an issue. Do you have a concern about me acting in this topic area?" Alternatively, "Hmm, here are edits I've made in that topic area: [diffs, showing non-problematic edits]. Do you have a concern about me acting in this topic area?" --Tryptofish (talk) 22:20, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

• Ah. I think I see what the problem is with RFA now. Risker (talk) 23:12, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

  Maybe I'm just being dimwitted, but what is that problem? --Tryptofish (talk) 01:02, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

  To be clear, my plan if someone asks something like this is to respond to it directly by saying "this is a chickenshit question" and urging the candidate not to answer, regardless of whether it is permitted by policies/guidelines. jp×g🗯️ 06:57, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I think restrictions on these sorts of questions are reasonable. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 23:36, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

There is a nasty variation on this though; where the question is designed to elicit non-public information about another editor. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:39, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Could you elaborate a bit on this? I've never seen this but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened. Just a bit hard to wrap my head around how this variation would even work. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 00:46, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

There are simple things like "given you and X live in the same city", which you cannot answer, even though you know that you do not. But there are also questions explicitly soliciting details about personal relationships with other editors ("given you are married/living with/dating X"), and even about relationships between two other editors. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:15, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Apart from sexuality, I wouldn't say that any of these are "non-public personal information". They might be things that it's considered impolite to ask about, or that pseudonymous people on the internet are reticent to discuss, but that's not the same thing. As a thought experiment, try to count how many people from your physical workplace that you know but couldn't tell their marital status, religion, race, nationality, or rough age. I counted zero. In fact, where I work now, it's not unusual to list all of those things except race and religion at the top of your CV. I don't think of any of these are good RfA questions but we should not go down the road of conflating Wikipedia's quite unusual (but good) support for pseudo-anonymity in our online 'workplace' with actual, legally-protected expectations of privacy. – Joe (talk) 07:11, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I actually have no idea about the marital status or religion that would applicable in regards to most of my coworkers. If we're going to bring up real-world comparisons though, let's think about job interviews. The questions Risker used as examples above would be illegal to ask a prospective employee where I live because the only reason someone would really ever need to ask them is if they are trying to be discriminatory. Hence the concept of a protected class. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 07:29, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

It would be illegal in jurisdictions that have that concept, which according to our article is the US and Canada. As I said, in Central Europe people often to put those things on their CV (I don't agree with that practice, but it shows that norms differ). Whenever the workplace analogy comes up, we seem to end up taking the norms of American white collar offices as universal – but this is a global project. Johnuniq's solution below, which allows for a degree of flexibility in interpreting what is and isn't "personal information", seems like a better option to me than adopting specific concepts from US employment law. – Joe (talk) 07:45, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I did say where I live. I also don't work a white collar job by any means. Anyways, my argument was that your experience was not universal (and obviously neither is mine). I do think it's important to think about what we would gain by having people treat RfA as a free for all where we allow these sorts of questions. In contrast, what do we have to lose? I think the risks far outweigh any potential benefits. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 08:00, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Something else to keep in mind in terms of a global perspective is not every country has the same track record with human rights and asking some of these questions could prompt real world danger. There are multiple places where it is illegal for someone to be a member of my former religion. There are also places where you can be executed for being gay. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 08:33, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Asking those questions would be illegal where I live too. But when I was working in the United States, one of my co-workers was fired due to her marital status (living with her boyfriend instead of being married). Apparently, there is no federal law against discrimination on the basis of marital status in the United States. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 11:32, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

The situation you described would be contrary to the Canadian Human Rights Act, which is what's applicable to me. [1] Anyways, I was looking into what Joe was saying about how apparently things are different in Europe and I came across similar legislation here. There's always going to be some nuance about who counts as a protected group across countries but the concept of restricting discrimination based on someone's characteristics isn't unique to America. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 11:45, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Asking about marital status at a job interview (which is a good analogy for RFA) is illegal in the US, Canada, all of the EU, Australia... almost all of the West. While it's allowed in Japan and some other countries, and this is a global project, English is a Western language and English Wikipedia has Western values, especially when it comes to discrimination and privacy (just look at the UCOC). In much of the world it's illegal to be gay, you can be killed for being of the wrong religion, husbands own their wives, etc etc. Norms differ, yes, but here on enwiki we have Western norms and that's a feature not a bug. Put me down for no questions at RFA (or rfb or arbcom elections or wp:perm, etc) about marital status, religion, sexual orientation, or other protected class info, or any private RL info, at RFA, in line with Western values even if not global values, and unapologetically so. Levivich (talk) 13:45, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I strongly disagree that there's such a thing as "Western values" and, even if there were, that this project should follow them just because it is written in English, a language spoken by people in literally every corner of the world. I'm also curious how this prohibition on asking about marital status works in cultures where, say, wedding rings are a thing. But really, we've drifted very far from my original point. I'm just saying that most of the things on Risker's list are not "non-public personal information" – a term of art both in transatlantic privacy law and our local policy (namely WP:BLP and WP:OS). I'm not saying they're fine to ask about for no reason, either in RfA or a job interview (which, while not a bad analogy, RfA is not). But I think a general reminder that such things are impolite and rarely constructive (per Johnuniq below) is enough to discourage that. We don't have to start throwing around legal terminology and alluding to OS blocks. – Joe (talk) 14:20, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I think "non-public personal information" as discussed here is in the context of the wiki, which means there is a whole host of things that fall into it that might not in 'real life' (like whether on is a dog :)). -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:48, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

For what it's worth, Wikipedia says there is such a thing as Western values. :-) Levivich (talk) 04:49, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

I would add a generic statement at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship#Expressing opinions with something like "Questions which ask for personal information are rarely appropriate." That might be put a little more strongly but it would avoid listing out-of-bounds questions while leaving room for IAR if someone could ever justify their question. My answer to any of the listed questions would be to say that I wasn't comfortable providing personal information as it might be a precedent that led to other candidates being required to reveal more. Admins encounter nonsense and RfA needs to show that they are not going to go crazy when that happens. Johnuniq (talk) 01:52, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I think Johnuniq's idea is the way to go. We can't possible come up with all of the "don't ask this" questions ahead of time. Maybe with an added "...such as..." with two or three of the most-likely-to-be-asked questions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joyous! (talk • contribs) 02:19, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree withJohnuniq's idea. Often in RFA there will be questions that should not be asked, as they are trolling, or perhaps timewasters. An admin candidate should be wise enough not to answer some questions. But may say they are not going to answer for whatever reason. If a questioner is trying to figure out undisclosed bias or COI editing, they can ask about why particular edits done. And I will say that jsut because someone is in a group, does not mean that they are necessarily biased or have an assumed point of view. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 02:50, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Here's an actual question from my RfA: "In your last RFA, one of the few questions you did not answer was how you would navigate another undisclosed conflict-of-interest. So I'll repeat the spirit of that question: can you elaborate on how you would navigate your existing conflicts-of-interest?" The questioner was fishing for information about another editor. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:53, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

A "fishing question". For disclosed interests, candidates should use their user page. For undisclosed, they whould keep away from the topic or edit so carefully that no bias is detectable. And many interests / opinions do not matter. So for example it does not matter whether we have met or not. And some "interests" can be determined from editing patterns and do not need to be disclosed. eg I like to rescue garbage, eg abandonded user drafts, or pages about to be deleted by G13. Or for some particular editors I will try to assist them. But say I was married to another Wikipedia editor. Should I disclose it or avoid voting on anything related to that connected editor? Such disclosure is not required for RFA. But if there were problems showing up in relation to a possibly related editor, then votors may be justified in voting "no". Graeme Bartlett (talk) 07:51, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

You cannot disclose that, because it would be disclosing personal information about another editor. Part of my contract with my former employer was non-disclosure of any detail whatsoever about my work. When someone accused me of writing about my employer, I could only respond that the firm in question was not my employer, but I could not disclose who my actual employer was. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 11:28, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

That sounds like a good solution. – Joe (talk) 07:12, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I think it's better than nothing but it doesn't fix the problem of what to do when people do actually ask these inappropriate questions if crats refuse to moderate them. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 19:45, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

With luck we'll soon have designated moderators per Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase II/Designated RfA monitors. Valereee (talk) 19:54, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

@Clovermoss: I am trying to see your perspective here. My point of view is surely coloured by the fact that none of my answers to Risker's questions mark me out as a minority (or well, one does, but it's not a big deal for me) or are something that I mind sharing. But still, I can't understand why answering "I don't want to disclose that information", "<X> has never affected my editing" or just nothing at all, isn't sufficient to deal with questions you find inappropriate? During your RfA the questions about religion were rude and baseless, but is it a systematic problem that we need to make hard rules about? – Joe (talk) 09:50, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

RfA is a high stakes environment where candidates may be pressured to share personal information that they otherwise wouldn't. Leaving rude and baseless questions benefits no one. I've shared other reasons why in this thread (e.g. these questions are not harmless, are really only useful if someone is trying to be discriminatory, and can pose real life consequences and dangers). While questions like these are not common, toxicity at RfA is a well-known problem. Why wouldn't we want to do something about it? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 14:22, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, in some cases, there are legal protections against someone's refusal to answer an incriminating question being used as evidence against them. Here, there are not, and anyone is free to form whatever opinion (and cast whatever vote) they darn well please, based on anything. Since, let's be real, most of the time a voter's main source of information about a candidate will be what's on the RfA page, this means that it is somewhat problematic to have one of the dozen-or-so pieces of information be "John Smith refused to answer a question about whether he was a Communist". jp×g🗯️ 07:24, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Why? It's not like such ('are you or have you ever been') questions are common and so this seems like a rather extreme hypothetical. But for me it is within bounds for anyone to ask (respectfully) almost anything about a user box the candidate chose and Wikipedia policy, the candidate then gets to show their ability to explain, follow, and/or apply policy. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:33, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

@Alanscottwalker: These questions may not be common but they do exist (see why I started the thread about people asking about religion in RfA in the first place – because one of my questions was essentially "Are you a member of [this religion]?" and crats saw no need to remove it). So the list of questions posed by Risker is not an "extreme hypothetical". I don't think it's that crazy that if questions like this are considered okay to ask, there aren't going to be people in the future who ask stuff like the alternative examples she posed. We can easily make it known that the community doesn't want to allow such toxicity. It's depressing that we might not want to. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 19:55, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, one instance does not a pattern make, it makes an outlier, thus extreme, and rather hypothetical, especially in the listing of iterations. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:42, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

This list of no-go areas may or may not be agreeable and may or may not be accepted by the community. Without a method of uncontroversial and non-disruptive implementation it is no more than a wish list. Like "I wish rain water was beer" - but just try making it so. Leaky caldron (talk) 16:59, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Just for the record, the questions above are from the examples of harassment that are written right into the Universal Code of Conduct. There definitely have been questions like this on RFAs. And, Alanscottwalker, the assumption of the questions above is that the candidate has not disclosed the information publicly in the past (e.g., with userboxen); the question examples are seeking undisclosed personal information. Leaky caldron, it's really, really sad that you feel expecting people to follow both the letter and the spirit of the UCoC is equivalent to expecting rain water to be beer. What does that say about our community? Risker (talk) 21:26, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Well the premise of the initial question suggested that the questioner thought the person had publicly revealed something about their religion, so the answer to that would be something like, "No. I was not addressing my religion when I spoke earlier (and I have no intention of discussing or disclosing my personal religion, if any, on Wikipedia), I was addressing what the sources say about . . . or some such. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:48, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

The "basis" on which the initial religion question was asked was that the candidate had edited articles related to that religion. There was no reason to assume that they were the religious beliefs of the candidate; that's a false assumption that isn't appropriate. Plenty of people edit articles that don't relate to their personal interests; most of my recent edits have no relation to my own interests, let alone my belief system, and I think that is commonplace for all editors. Risker (talk) 21:59, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

No. As I recall, it was something they said about the religion that prompted the question. And even assuming you are right, the reply is obvious to anyone with any clue: 'No. My editing does not disclose my religion (and I have no intention of discussing or disclosing whether I have any religion at all on Wikipedia) I seek and I was seeking there to write NPOV based on V without NOR or CVIO,' etc. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:02, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I didn't say anything about my religious beliefs in my RfA prior to their questions. My response to question 2 (What are your best contributions to Wikipedia, and why?) did state that My long term goals are improving content about the Niagara Region and Jehovah's Witnesses. If they had actual concerns about my editing, they could've linked to a diff instead of just waving vague accusations and demanding to know what my current religious beliefs are. It's not the biggest deal in the world to me (which is why I did in fact answer their questions) but I did realize that the question was inappropriate. It's why the crat discussion that took place later bothered me. It has wider implications for other people running at RfA and I couldn't in good conscience just ignore that reality. Hence this entire discussion. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 22:13, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

So it was something you said about the religion, and not that you had edited, but that you wanted to edit it. At any rate, you are bound to get a curveball question from time to time. Just respond with telling them you don't know how they got to that curve. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:20, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I had edited Jehovah's Witnesses already at that point, the above was a partial quote about my general long term goals before going into specifics about what I've actually done in regards to content. But I do not think this counts as so it was something you said about the religion, it's literally just me saying I have an interest in the topic area. Let's imagine they decided to take a different angle on their questions since I have edited articles about the Niagara Region. They could've asked if I currently live in Niagara Falls. Would that question have been okay? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 22:33, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

That seems a thin distinction, not the religion, the subject, but anyhow. In any other situation one would not be surprised, nor shocked, nor concerned about harassment, if someone just told you they like to write about X, and a response was what's your relation to X. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:49, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

No one has ever asked me about my relationship with food, women, or people of color, which are the topics I most commonly write about. IMO there's a reason for that. Valereee (talk) 14:35, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

No one asked about what you like to edit, that you like to edit broad topics, that almost everyone has some relationship to, seems irrelevant. Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:18, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

If you don't mind me asking, why do you find such a comparison irrelevant? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 13:23, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

1) No one asked, so it is contextually irrelevant.

2) No one was talking about examining someone's edits, we were talking about responding to a statement, so it is contextually irrelevant.

3) Broad topics that almost everyone has a relationship with are not what this conversation is about, so is substantively irrelevant. Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:35, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Hmm. Well I can't speak for Valereee but I assume that she thought the comparison to be relevant when she made it. I'll suppose I should wait to see if she'll present her side of the matter before coming to any conclusions. No one asked does seem to be a bit dismissive? I'd ask that maybe you reconsider framing things in such a way but of course I can't stop you from acting how you wish. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 13:54, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

If you are posing a question, the answer is no it was not dismissive. But perhaps you are just being loose with the word. As for framing, it's not a frame, it is a fact, from which a contextual inference was drawn. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:39, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

They're in the UCoC as examples of harassment, not forbidden topics. "Papists like you shouldn't be admins" is an example of harassment based on religion. I think most reasonable people would agree that just asking "Are you Catholic?" is not harassment, though it may or may not be appropriate given the context and circumstances. – Joe (talk) 10:04, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Risker, I was highlighting the potential difficulty of implementing your list into practice in a reasonable, non-provocative manner. The fact that UCoC now evidently places an obligation to swerve these topics will, I have no doubt, place us under an obligation. But it sadly doesn't resolve my concern about the practicalities, does it? Leaky caldron (talk) 07:16, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Leaky caldron, the fact that something is potentially difficult doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. Heck, we have a few thousand FAs, and a ton of other featured content; that's hard, too. And we've changed our culture multiple times in the last 20-odd years. So what about a rule that says "Questions that appear to try to reveal non-disclosed personal information about the candidate or any other editor are not permitted and will be removed immediately by any administrator or bureaucrat. The questioner will have one opportunity to revise the question to meet this standard. Repeated attempts (including similar questions over more than one RFA) may be sanctioned." It doesn't have to be hard, it just needs to be enforced. Risker (talk) 08:05, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

To be clear, do you mean rain water that's already fallen (e.g. into a cistern or collection system) turning into beer, or an entire episode of cloud precipitation consisting of beer? The latter seems like it would be extremely miserable and unhealthy, and probably cause a lot of property damage (i.e. every square inch of the area it rained in would afterwards be covered in a layer of stale beer). jp×g🗯️ 07:27, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I suspect collected rainwater, as opposed to simply "rain". The quote is taken from A Man for all Seasons spoken by the Common Man having just been sacked by Sir Thomas More who had resigned as chancellor of England... "All right, so he’s down on his luck! I’m sorry. I don’t mind saying that: I’m sorry! Bad luck! If I’d any good luck to spare he could have some. I wish we could all have good luck, all the time! I wish we had wings! I wish rainwater was beer! But it isn’t! . . . " Leaky caldron (talk) 17:55, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Ah, I see. That would indeed be nice. jp×g🗯️ 04:49, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Saying not now nicely

Now that the kerfuffle over the most recent RfA is dying down, one point that I think is worth discussing further is whether we could make early closes (i.e those citing WP:NOTNOW/WP:SNOW) a less painful experience. They are, after all, supposed to be a kindness: stopping an RfA that has no chance from going further, even if the candidate doesn't realise it themselves.

The first thing that comes to my mind is to try harder to stop them happening in the first place. WP:RFA currently says, the only formal prerequisite for adminship is having an extended confirmed account on Wikipedia (500 edits and 30 days of experience). However, the community usually looks for candidates with much more experience and those without are generally unlikely to succeed at gaining adminship. This is ridiculously understated and I think a prospective candidate that is a bit oblivious to subtext could easily get the impression that running with, say, 1500 edits and three months of experience is fine. We don't have to set minimum criteria, but surely it's realistic enough to say something like "successful requests from adminship usually come from editors with at least [one] year spent actively editing, [5000] edits, and substantial experience in either writing articles and/or working in one or more maintenance areas" – exact wording and figures obviously subject to change. – Joe (talk) 13:09, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

If you try to establish metrics people should pay attention to before applying, then you're really applying prerequisites for adminship. This won't work for a large number of reasons. See Wikipedia:Perennial proposals#Prerequisites for adminship. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:46, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm explicitly not suggesting adding prerequisites. Sure, it might be misread that way, but if it's question of giving people honest and realistic expectations, versus potentially losing a few inattentive readers with low edit counts who are somehow also great admin candidates, I know what I'd choose... – Joe (talk) 13:59, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I think the cause of these is that editors who don't meet the practical criteria but think they're ready for RfA are unlikely to do any of the reading anyway. They often don't even bother to seek advice. Even when they do, and they receive clear counsel at ORCP or elsewhere that they aren't ready, it's not uncommon to see an RfA not long afterward. Valereee (talk) 13:58, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

That is very possible. But isn't it worth a try? – Joe (talk) 14:00, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

It is often far easier to start something than it is to stop. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:02, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I do think it's worth a try, and I've actually added bolded advice at WP:RFA/SELFNOM with a link to WP:RFASELF.

Maybe stop with the clear step-by-step instructions on how to self-nom. Maybe that'll force people to at least ask a question somewhere that will be seen by someone who can give them advice. Or maybe it'll just end with malformed noms that someone well-intentioned but unaware of the problem will come along and fix. Valereee (talk) 14:06, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

In the last six years, we've averaged just __2__ snow/notnow closes per year. The number of snow/notnow closes is very, very small. So we risk ever creeping RFA prerequisites, for...what, exactly? Even in the unlikely event that this was wildly successful and reduced snow/notnow closes by 50%, we'd see just one less per year. This is a solution looking for a problem. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:45, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

When people don't read something, it's usually because it's too long and says too much, not because it doesn't say enough. There was already a warning in that section; adding another one on top of that was WP:CREEP. I've merged the warnings together. If people want to improve from there, I'd suggest focusing on what it's possible to remove, not what it's possible to add. That section, like many projectspace pages, mixes technical advice with policy advice. If we can simplify the technical process, removing the need for much of the technical advice, that'll leave more room to emphasize the policy advice. Sdkb ^talk 15:23, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I have no objection to trying to improve the language, but while I think these are well-intentioned ideas, they might be ineffective because they're trying to treat the symptoms instead of curing the disease.

One way in which the Wikipedia community is dishonest and cruel is that it announces a formal criteria for something and then routinely rejects applicants who exceed that criteria by extreme factors like 10x. Wikipedia is lying when it says you only need 30 days and 500 edits to run for RFA, because people with 300 days and 5,000 edits have a 0% chance of passing. Even at 20x, it's still unlikely.

If Wikipedia wants to be nicer to candidates, it should start with being honest with candidates (and with itself). Levivich (talk) 15:01, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

The minimum standard is appropriate. Today it may be necessary in practice to greatly exceed the standard, but that doesn't mean it should be changed. The only formal requirements to be US President are to be at least 35 years of age, be a natural born citizen, and have lived in the United States for at least 14 years. But no President has been elected who was younger than 43, and most of them had lived in the US for more than 40 years. It also doesn't say they need to be literate, speak English, or not be a certified idiot. Does that mean all these criteria should be in the US Constitution? No, because it is far better to let electors use their judgement and to retain the flexibility for requirements to change over time. Same with admins. MarcGarver (talk) 15:17, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Imagine if the US Constitution said you have to be at least 3 years old and lived in the US for 1 year to be President. That would be a ridiculous lie. That's what Wikipedia is doing. Levivich (talk) 15:21, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

The reason I chose the US Constitution as an analogy is because it can be extended to how difficult it is to change, just like some Wikipedia policies and practices. Would it be sensible to try and get two-thirds of the House, and two-thirds of the Senate and 38 states to make a change to that article to 40 years old and 20 years in the US because "that was the reality?" I'd say not - lots of effort for a trivial outcome. Same here. All it would do is stop a tiny handful of people - the ones who read the guidance - from applying before they are ready. MarcGarver (talk) 19:46, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

It would be sensible if the constitution said 3 years old and 1 year in the US. Your analogy is inapt because we're not talking about a gap of 35 years stated vs 40 years reality (a small gap), we're talking about 500 edits/30 days stated vs 10,000 edits/18 months reality (orders of magnitude of difference). I doubt you'll find any analogous situation where the gap between stated criteria and actual criteria is an order of magnitude or larger; that's unique to Wikipedia. Levivich (talk) 14:00, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I would be fine with such a change. I would prefer to see 5000 edits/1 year set as an absolute minimum, and for the ""successful requests from adminship usually come from" suggestion to use something like 10,000 edits/18 months. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:27, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

These are much more reasonable and accurate numbers. Levivich (talk) 15:59, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support. The culture around here is to hate red lines, and this results in our minimum requirements for perms being too low and out of alignment with actual practice, which results in bitey situations for applicants, both at RFA and at PERM. I'd prefer to have the requirements align closely (or at least more closely) with actual practice. I think the de facto edit count nowadays for RFA is about 8000 (0xDEADBEEF in 2023). I think you have to go back 7 years to get an RFA that was much lower than that (2,385 edits, GoldenRing in 2017). –Novem Linguae (talk) 15:32, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

  Agree that red lines can be a problem, there are certain niche edge cases that could pass, but they don't apply to anyone that wants to be a "general" administrator. So, using a descriptive rather than prescriptive verbiage for expectations could be useful. — xaosflux ^Talk 15:53, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

In another discussion thread on this page, I suggested having a pre-RfA nomination period, where a prospective candidate would seek out a certain number of supporters before proceeding. The threshold would be low: just enough to give the candidate assurance that they aren't misreading their likelihood of making a successful request. This could be introduced as a recommended optional step, as a reality check to try to avoid a possible embarrassing emphatic rejection of a request.

On the general principle of saying "no" nicely: giving feedback constructively and receiving feedback in its intended spirit are two very difficult things to do. Providing feedback in this circumstance is a balancing act between being honest and impartial, while also being understanding of the good intentions of the volunteer. For candidacies that are clearly going to fail, users thinking about commenting ought to gauge how much additional value they can provide, and lean towards deferring any comments. isaacl (talk) 16:21, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

The idea of seeking out certain number of supports would be a good idea for a future RFA review. — ♠ Ixtal ^{( T / C )} ⁂ Non nobis solum. ♠ 19:33, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Isn't this kind of what we do know, with the unwritten rule that you should find two admins willing to nominate you? (Almost?) all early closes are self-noms. So we could just make this existing expectation more explicit. – Joe (talk) 11:51, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

There are a lot of alternatives between a self-nom and two admins. One respected, experienced nominator should be sufficient for a good candidate. We've had two early closes within the last year that weren't self-noms, plus at least one successful self-nom, I think. Valereee (talk) 13:01, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Sure (with the caveat that as noted by Valereee, it doesn't have to be two admins, or even two people). But this discussion is regarding those who aren't doing this, and how to reach them. These volunteers aren't looking at past RfAs for guidance, and are at most giving a cursory look at Wikipedia:Advice for RfA candidates. The community has shown reluctance to bar self-nominations in the formal procedure, but perhaps it would be more open to adding a strong suggestion that anyone planning to self-nominate should undertake a reality check, and find X number of supporters first. (Unfortunately, there are always some users intent on doing what they really want to do, regardless of what advice they are given, and there's no easy way to keep them from proceeding. That's when saying "no" nicely has to be done.) isaacl (talk) 18:08, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. When they do proceed, regardless of any heads-up they're given, it isn't hard to be nice. It isn't hard to word comments constructively. It isn't hard to give advice and suggestions. I don't think it's out of line to want - and even expect - people to be kind instead of rude. Useight (talk) 18:23, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree it isn't hard to want to make the effort. My experience with the feedback process in life, though, is that it's a skill that has to be consciously developed (for most, anyway), particularly when being delivered in writing without the benefit of ongoing reaction cues. I do agree that expecting kindness to be exhibited, even if imperfectly, is reasonable. isaacl (talk) 18:46, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Reminder that the generation of admins who got their adminships from 2004-2005 generally only had 1000 edits and three months experience. This is like the boomers getting cheap houses. 77.103.193.166 (talk) 09:19, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

The wiki and the associated responsibilities/expectations for admins have also changed. A shack is cheaper than a space colony duplex. — ♠ Ixtal ^{( T / C )} ⁂ Non nobis solum. ♠ 14:05, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

In some ways, we could do more damage in the old days (to give an example, it was impossible to restore deleted images; also, there was no extra layer of "interface admin" protection for .js files), but Wikipedia was a small upstart, not a massively trusted and widely used source of information, so everything was a little lower profile. —Kusma (talk) 14:14, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

This is a way more interesting example than deleted files. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 15:14, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

The English Wikipedia is the only one where it is impossible to delete the Main Page. —Kusma (talk) 06:40, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

My understanding is that the English Wikipedia also has much higher standards for adminship compared to other projects. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 06:42, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Conversely, an admin that has been continuously active since 2004–2005 has shown that they can use the admin tools for twenty years without causing enough of a fuss to be kicked out. In some ways that shows more trust than a 200-person RfA two years ago. – Joe (talk) 14:39, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

I think you make a good point here. For every admin that has lost touch with community norms over time, there are plenty that haven't. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 03:58, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Back to Joe's initial comment around the only formal prerequisite for adminship is having an extended confirmed account on Wikipedia (500 edits and 30 days of experience). However, the community usually looks for candidates with much more experience and those without are generally unlikely to succeed at gaining adminship - could this be reworded to better give reader a reasonable expectation of the community requirements to pass RFA? In practice the extended confirmed requirement is next to meaningless, so it's misleading to lead with it - it could even be a footnote. Consigned (talk) 13:54, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Proposed rule: Delete all RFAs that are closed before the voting starts

Suggested rule: Any RFA that is closed before the start of voting is to be deleted unless the candidate explicitly requests otherwise. The candidate may also request undeletion at any time. If the candidate starts a new RFA within one year, the RFA will be undeleted and the new RFA marked "2". Any new RFA after a one-year period will be treated as a "first" RFA. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 21:42, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't think this is a good blanket rule (creation of a speedy deletion criterion for this). We welcome countless editors to participate in a discussion, then just delete all their contributions because one person decides they've had enough of the discussion? Even withdrawn requests can be useful, with feedback the requester should be able to make use of in the future. — xaosflux ^Talk 22:32, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

The candidate can always request an emailed copy. How much value is the feedback to any third party, unless they're looking to "dig up dirt" on the candidate, e.g. "Serious concerns have previously been raised about [person just dragged to ANI], see [RFA from five years ago]". As to the wasted effort of the commenters, well WP:IWORKEDSOHARD is a bluelink for a reason.

But I realize this proposal might go too far for many people. How about not officially listing RFAs that are closed early. As in, the page exists, people can link to it if they want, but it's not at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Recent, Wikipedia:Requests for adminship by year, and so on? WP:SNOW closes can still be IAR-deleted on a case-by-case basis. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 22:49, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I Oppose all deletions of RfAs for any reason - Wikipedia deliberately keeps a permanent record of everything and this is not the place to attempt to hide from your past. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 23:13, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Where is the place to attempt to hide from your past? Asking for a friend. Levivich (talk) 23:52, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Some website that doesn't keep permanent logs of everything. Like IRC. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 01:20, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Or WP:SPI -- Euryalus (talk) 03:15, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I disagree with the way SPI outright deletes cases too, for that matter, but that's not relevant here. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 03:20, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

SPI is where you go for help remembering your past. Levivich (talk) 03:40, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

It's where Levivich goes when other people remember his past :D ——Serial Number 54129 14:18, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

How would you feel about just not listing them, as I suggested above? Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 01:39, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't follow the logic behind this - a RFA being listed is nothing more than a factual statement that it happened and nothing more. But I guess I have no formal objection. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 01:42, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Deleting someone's embarrassingly failed bid for adminship is "hiding from your past"? You can't be serious. It would be rude of me to leave a response to this comment consisting entirely of "🙄", but if it weren't, I would. jp×g🗯️ 17:20, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

You seem to be under the impression that this RFA format is still going to be around after its "trial" period. That's currently looking pretty unrealistic. —Cryptic 23:50, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Not sure where you get that impression? We've had one rather atypical RfA under this system (that would've likely been quickly closed under the old system). The reforms weren't focused on that sort of RfA in the first place. Elli (talk | contribs) 01:10, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

So what was this 3b idea intended to fix then? --Hammersoft (talk) 01:55, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

My impression is that it was supposed to fix the situation where you initially have 100% support, something gets brought up on day 3, and you slowly watch opposes gather while you wonder if you'll stay above 75 (or 65) percent support by the end of the week. The people I've talked to who have experienced such RfAs have uniformly described them as awful. Trying to front-load the discussion would hopefully lead to a more stable experience and less constant refreshing and worrying. Elli (talk | contribs) 03:41, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Also to give people a chance to raise/address/respond to/discuss concerns before anyone votes instead of after. Levivich (talk) 03:44, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

So now we have the same situation, except the candidate doesn't even get the comfort of the initial support. Swell. I can't imagine wanting to go through RFA during this trial, not before we saw the first live result and certainly not after. And I have to wonder, if every candidate we savage thoroughly enough either withdraws or gets involuntarily withdrawn before it gets to the voting stage, and those RFAs don't count towards finishing the trial, whether we'll ever get through it. —Cryptic 19:45, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

It's five RFAs or September 2024; if no one gets through the gauntlet before time expiry I imagine the consensus will be that the trial failed. Primefac (talk) 19:53, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Have we ever deleted an RfA? Even in very serious circumstances, from what I've seen they tend to be blanked rather than deleted. The same goes for most discussions. – Joe (talk) 06:55, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

RfAs that have been run or RfAs that have been created and abandoned? I've definitely seen the latter get deleted, but never a RfA that was actually transcluded at any point. Giraffer (talk) 07:01, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose deleting any RfAs because this grand project of ours is based on transparency. Courtesy blanking may be appropriate occasionally, but any editor in good standing should be able to take a look if they want, to learn something useful. In the recent case, transparency is especially important because it is the first RfA since recent reforms kicked in. I can only imagine that it must have been embarrassing for the candidate. but they freely chose to self nominate, and actually received a lot of supportive words that should be remembered. We do not need a memory hole. Cullen328 (talk) 07:10, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I would prefer that unsuccessful RfAs weren't listed on the RfA main page in the table. This has been discussed before, and the decision was to keep the unsuccessful in the table but let all RfAs age off more quickly, as with so few RfAs, some were being listed on the main page for many months.

IIRC, the rationale for keeping unsuccessful RfAs on the main page for up to three months was that they were educational for prospective candidates to be able to easily find recent unsuccessful RfAs. I don't think it's actually useful for very many prospective candidates; anyone savvy enough to be thinking along the lines of "I should go review recent unsuccessful RfAs as part of my preparation" is likely also savvy enough to be able to find them even if they aren't on the main page. Anyone who wouldn't know how to find them is IMO also unlikely to have bothered with that much preparation. Any benefit of having unsuccessful RfAs listed in that table is IMO far outweighed by the downside of it. Valereee (talk) 10:51, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

The benefit to listing, esp in the discuss-now, come back later for not-voting, is that if you start participating in the discussion, then remember to come back for it and the discussion is just disappeared, you can be quite confused. The one-line in a table of "this was closed" makes it easy to see that you are done. — xaosflux ^Talk 14:07, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree, but does that outweigh the downside of having a failed RfA prominently displayed for up to three months? I'm not saying delete. The discussion would still be available at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship by year. It just wouldn't be on the main RfA page as a constant reminder to all. Valereee (talk) 14:26, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Generally against deletion. It seems like some of the concerns/reasons for this could be addressed, in part, by framing. While we're doing this 2-day pre-vote discussion thing, we could frame it as not actually part of the RfA or otherwise use language to make it seem like the stakes are reduced. Like you can announce your interest in being an RfA candidate, start a 2-day discussion, and then make an active decision about whether or not to initiate a vote. Declining to do so would mean the RfA never started, not that you failed/withdrew it. Not a major change, but maybe could help? — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 14:08, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

That's more of less the reasoning behind my second proposal, of just not listing the never-voted-on RFAs. It's not really a "request" until the vote starts. It's a bit more like a political candidate who withdrew from the race before the ballots were printed. The current RFA is listed as having "0%" support. Except 0/0 is not 0%. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 17:57, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose deletion. Failed RfAs—whether under the old or the trial system—can be as useful as those that pass. In fact, for would-be candidates, they are more useful. A successful RfA might suggest the things you should do; but a failed one demonstrates what you should not. And knowing what not to do, in any walk of life, is something you take to the bank! ——Serial Number 54129 14:21, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. Transparency is an important value to me. I would prefer not to delete or blank RFAs, and I am also disinclined to take failed RFAs out of the stats table. –Novem Linguae (talk) 15:34, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

  To be clear, I'm not suggesting taking all failed RFAs out of the stats table. Only those closed before the vote starts. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 17:59, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose - looking back at old RFAs is incredibly useful when people re-run. GiantSnowman 17:27, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
• It seems extraordinarily unkind to have a policy where anyone who fails the seven-day-long public job interview has to have the whole thing slathered across the public web until the sun burns out. Yeah, sure, it's "not indexed by search engines" -- but we all know this is a crock. Look at, for example, https://www.google.com/search?q="requests for adminship/tamzin" gives you:

Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship/Tamzin/Bureaucrat ...
Al-Quds University · https://wiki.alquds.edu › Tamzin › Bureaucrat_chat
May 9, 2022 — Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship/Tamzin/Bureaucrat chat · Just wanted to note… · Request from Moneytrees[edit] · Rebuttal to ...
Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Tamzin
Al-Quds University · https://wiki.alquds.edu › Tamzin
... Requests for adminship/Tamzin#Ealdgyth's oppose. gnu57 01:42, 2 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]; Oppose – Although they seem quite sensible otherwise, this candidate ...
Category:Bureaucrat discussions
Wikipedia · https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Category:Bureaucrat_d...
Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Tamzin/Bureaucrat chat · Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Trappist the monk/Bureaucrat discussion. Τ. Template:Bureaucrat ...

And https://www.google.com/search?q="requests for adminship%2Fhammersoft" gives you:

Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Hammersoft - Aeon Coin
aeoncoin.pl · https://www.aeoncoin.pl › view_html
Translate this page
Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Hammersoft. The following discussion is preserved as an archive of a successful request for adminship. Please do not modify ...

I support being able to do something about RfAs that don't get brought out of the discussion stage, whether this is a deletion or a courtesy blanking or being delisted from the table or whatever. Maybe they could be courtesy-blanked and then linked from the main table as "Unsuccessful RfA" -- I don't know. I get that there's a public interest in editors being able to see what happened during an RfA -- generally, editors who have an interest in the RfA process, so people who are deffo capable of going through page histories. Otherwise it just seems like pointless cruelty; my own RfA passed by an extremely wide margin but I was still quite concerned about the implications of having a failure on public record under my real initials forever (and put it off by a year accordingly). jp×g🗯️ 17:35, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose, why should RfAs be deleted anyways? Toadette^Edit! 19:01, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Request for admin

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I would like the opportunity to be installed as an admin as I noticed more and more acts of vandalism and dishonesty and hiding honest information has become a thing and I would love to help contribute to the good work already being done. Farmer4-89 (talk) 01:39, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

@Farmer4-89. Thanks for your interest. Becoming an administrator involves receiving public comments for a week, and achieving a certain percent of supports. With 7 edits, you would not pass this process. You would need much more experience (thousands of edits) to qualify. I have good news though. There are many ways to help out without being an administrator. Most activities on Wikipedia are open to everyone, or there is a template you can use to summon an admin to do the action for you. Hope that helps. Happy editing. –Novem Linguae (talk) 01:56, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank u kindly. You wouldn’t have any other tips that would be helpful for being an admin would u. Farmer4-89 (talk) 02:01, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

WP:RFAADVICE has some info. –Novem Linguae (talk) 02:02, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

You are an all star. Perhaps you could help me out? Not to sound rude. Farmer4-89 (talk) 02:03, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

To become an admin? Novem Linguae certainly could, but I doubt he would want to - not just because he may have other things to do onwiki, but also because users are generally discouraged from joining Wikipedia for the purpose of gaining high positions.

You mention "acts of vandalism" and "hiding honest information". You can counter these by reverting vandalism and discussing "hidden" material on the articles' talk pages; none of these require you to be an administrator. Become a regular editor first, edit your way through the encyclopaedia, and then apply for adminship (if you still want it by then)...

If you meant help with editing in general, you may consult your homepage, where you may have a mentor assigned, to whom you can send messages through the homepage. You can also ask questions at the Teahouse, or indeed even on my talk page (and I guess NL's as well). Kind regards, Wilhelm Tell DCCXLVI (^{talk to me!}/_{my edits}) 10:53, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A new RfA

Several hours ago a new RfA was started, but we should not do the same as the previous one, closed, reverted, blanked, unblanked, and reclosed. As the second after the review and the first to see possible voting, we would expect positive feedback to be made once RfA has been finished. I cannot expect what has happened, and I was shocked about that. It is like everybody beat me up, but I won't expect the same as the curren RfA. Toadette^Edit! 19:06, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Yet another self-nom, which is really not all that helpful in determining whether this new system will help. I wonder why this is attracting self-noms? Valereee (talk) 20:11, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

If we're being honest, because the kind of people who would approach a nominator will largely be waiting until the trial is over. RfA incentivizes risk-averse behavior. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 20:48, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, maybe people who would't bother to consider approaching a nominator are the same ones who'd take a risk on a new system. It's too bad, really. I do think there could be benefits to this, but if it keeps going this way we may not get a chance to see that. Valereee (talk) 21:48, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

This new system may have sounded like a reasonable idea on paper, but what we've seen in practice is that over the course of two days enough negative information surfaces to sink the candidate. While both of these candidates would certainly have failed under the traditional system, I think the results so far have lessened the likelihood of a more qualified candidate taking the risk. I believe this experiment will fail because very few suitable candidates will be willing to risk it. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 23:23, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, never mind. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 22:58, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

We are also living in the post-Tamzin (and Vami) RfA Wikipedia, where prospective candidates can look forward to any slightly controversial opinion they have ever stated onwiki taken out of context and used as reason to impugn their judgement and fitness to be an admin. Are people really surprised there's little appetite among experienced editors to run? Just scroll up a bit and see what Clovermoss went through, and that was a largely uncontroversial RfA; there's also experiences from those like SFR who had all sorts of accusations thrown at them for their trouble. Personally, I don't think I'll ever run because my record isn't 100% perfect and I could only look forward to being called "uncivil" (because I don't entertain BS) and a "deletionist" (with several dozen GAs). So why would I bother running? I have the content creation 10 times over, and the experience and edit count, but why on earth would I want the massive stress of getting picked apart by the entire site? I think you could ask many other editors and they'd give you a similar answer. Maybe the new system will herald a shift, but I have my doubts. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 01:25, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Some things change, some don't. Eighteen years ago I put off submitting to RfA, even though SlimVirgin had asked me to, in part because I was worried that some mistakes I had made would be brought up in a RfA. When I did run a few months later, no one mentioned any of my mistakes, other than one criticism for being too bureaucratic about changes to policies. Of course, there were a lot more RfAs then, and individual RfAs got less attention (81 votes total for mine). Donald Albury 14:51, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

1. Best, Reading Beans 08:16, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

My hope is that people are just waiting until they can try the "admin election". —Kusma (talk) 17:11, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

And/or the other Phase 2 items. Still, I don't think this rfa is any more typical than the last one, so I'm not sure we've had a "normal" or typical test case yet. We may not get one until Phase 2 is done and/or elections are rolled out. I'm very curious to see if we get a bunch of candidates standing for election. Levivich (talk) 20:34, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I would disagree that this recent RFA was atypical. It was a user with many years of experience and many thousands of edits, but the RFA failed due to lack of experience in a few specific areas (and, to some degree, for taciturn answers in the RFA itself). But I don't think an RFA needs to be successful in order to fall within the bounds of typical. Useight (talk) 15:52, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Totally agree that a typical rfa need not be successful. I think it was the answers to questions that made the last rfa atypical. (IMO, those were very atypical answers.) Levivich (talk) 16:21, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with that. It's much more common for RFA candidates to be more descriptive and verbose when answering questions. I'm wondering if this trial, with its initial period of only comments/questions is simply going to result in a higher number of questions and, therefore, all things being equal, result in candidates giving shorter answers to each individual question due to a number of factors, from the objective (answering more questions in the same amount of time requires shorter answers) to the subjective (more questions tiring or flustering the candidate). Useight (talk) 19:27, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I do think I'm seeing people wanting to hear their voice but only seeing 'ask a question' as a possibility, so they ask a question. Definitely not a plus for this system. Valereee (talk) 20:11, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I notice in the current RfA that some people are explicitly saying how they intend to vote when that starts, even though that's not what the proposed process intends. Once again, that seems to be difficult to enforce. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:50, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I don’t see how it can be enforced and never understood this. It seems to be a fatal flaw. Doug Weller talk 19:33, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Just read the page and I only saw one person who indicated how they would vote, which seems like a marked improvement from last time. Levivich (talk) 20:32, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

From a candidate's pov, the General Comments section in the current RfA is a complete shambles. Questions to answers buried in TL;DR discussions and ramblings about photographic evidence about animals and basically editors saying how they intend to !vote when the time comes rather than waiting until the time comes. This, repeated as it will be, is unfair to candidates and needs to be addressed, speedily. Leaky caldron (talk) 19:16, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Any idea how before we get new candidates? An RfC maybe, but that might take too long unless enough agree for a snow close. Doug Weller talk 19:36, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

It does seem that we need to have more structure in these pre-voting discussions. I would like to see people adding relevant information to the page, like their experience from interactions with the candidate, their impressions from reviewing the candidate's contributions, their analysis of the candidate's AfD record etc., so there is better information available for voters once voting starts. Maybe make it "candidate evaluations" and ask all participants to provide information not yet on the page? —Kusma (talk) 19:45, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I continue to believe that more sectioning would improve the General discussion experience. Right now it's a mismash catch all of "All comments people would otherwise make at RFAs (with/without voting indicators)". Which then leads to more repetition.

I think a simple encouragement of sections would do most of the trick. If I want to discuss someone's laconic answers, I'd put it under "About short answers" subsection instead of the larger "General Discussion" section. I think it wouldn't be very contentious for someone (probably an admin?) to move such comments to the right section too. Soni (talk) 21:25, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I think we need a better delineation of what is a general comment versus what is a question. At the same time, I don't think it's unusual that we are a bit confused with a brand new process. Once the RfA concludes I think we will be able to do a post-mortem and assess what is and isn't working. I do think that removing the immediate voting really helps turn down the temperature (and allows the candidate an easy out if they so choose). Things have been remarkably calm so far, which is a positive change for sure. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 23:21, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Update: Voting started an hour ago and as of the moment I am writing, there are 11 against and 2 in favor. Expecting that the ratio of supports and opposes gets worse, it is expected that it may close early and thus it would not still count towards the first five RfAs before September. Toadette^Edit! 02:37, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

This means we still have a lot of fixes for it to work. The RFA talk page seems blank, somehow... Just a random Wikipedian^(talk) 03:18, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm very interested to see how this discussion period is affecting the amount of questions. Average RfAs seem to reach ~20-30 questions across 7 days; this one got to 32 in just a little over 2 days but is also another unusual RfA. I.e. is the discussion period resulting in all the questions being asked at once, or is it resulting in more questions to be asked across the entire RfA, or some other third thing? There has always been a trend that the majority of questions are asked in the first few days and then this tapers off, but this is quite dramatic even acknowledging that. Curbon7 (talk) 05:43, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

It could also be that in this specific case the answers given were way too short. This means people didn’t get a good idea about the candidate and had to ask more questions to get a better idea (my own question was a direct repeat of Q1, for example). I suspect that better answers may have meant a lot less questions, which would then probably have tailed off sharply once !voting started. (I opposed this at the RfC and I’m still waiting to see if there are any upsides to this. Maybe a different candidate (one who isn’t a self nom and with a stronger track record in admin-lite areas) will show the benefits of the system). - SchroCat (talk) 07:57, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

IMHO, folks were chompin' at the bit to engage in the RfA and the process only gave them two outlets: questions and comments. I'm disappointed this candidate wasn't better prepared to respond to questions, because on paper the candidate had some good qualities (an ORCP wouldn't have hurt them either). With due respect to Toadette (whom I honor for being the human to be "first through the door"), neither of these worthy contributors were "shovel ready" sysop candidates, but both of them might have successful 2nd runs if they continue to demonstrate their trustworthiness. For the record, I think having a set of nominators gives some rudder to the boat, so to speak. My 2nd RfA nominators vetted me personally and offered to help me with the basic three questions if they thought mine needed help. My nominators made themselves available to me during my run as did a few other supporting admins. A self-nom is a tougher road to tread. BusterD (talk) 13:29, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

As sort of alluded already, I think this process is no better, if not worse, then the default process we've been using for over a decade. Rather than editors bluntly posting how they will vote, the ... nominee has to guess how they will eventually vote based on the "General comments" section prior to the voting period starting? So ... as far as I can tell, the only way I can see this being avoided is to basically restrict editors from voting if they participate in the RFA prior to the voting period starting ... which I really do not see happening as enforceable or an agreeable resolution to this, but I don't see any alternatives either to make this process better for the nominees. Steel1943 (talk) 23:19, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Maybe we should have required anyone who RfAd under this trial to have a nominator. Valereee (talk) 01:04, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Thankfully a moot point, now we have a nominated candidate put forward. A superficial glance shows this one may be a solid candidate, so the new system will at least get something of a proper test. - SchroCat (talk) 11:41, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

This is dependent on what you are testing. Are we testing whether this makes RFA better for candidates who will not pass? Or better for candidates that would have passed on the old system? I'm genuinely curious. Before running tests you always work out what you are testing. Therefore, what is it that we are testing here? - Bilby (talk) 12:06, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I think SchroCat's point is that we are getting a test of the system with a candidate that has a chance of passing. _Dial^mayo 12:15, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

That makes a degree of sense, but I am still a bit lost. I'll go over the voting from before to try and get a better picture. But it seems to me that the ultimate goal is to make RFA more accessible to editors so that we get more people nominating. If that is the case, there are two situations we should care about - the treatment of people who are unlikely to pass and the treatment of people who have a chance to pass, but may not. At the moment we have two examples of the former, which is a good thing. But we should not discount them because they fail to fit into the second model. - Bilby (talk) 12:48, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

The trial is for 5 non-snow/withdrawn RFAs, so what we are testing is how this works with candidates who have a chance of passing. This current one looks like it'll be the first one. Levivich (talk) 13:03, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm ok with that. I don't want to be difficult, but strangely enough this is my field.

I'm curious because I assume that the intent is to pass more admins. There are two models which I think could achieve that:

• Making RFA less onerous so that more people will run, increasing the number of successful attempts.
• Lowering the standards such that people who would not have passed on the prior model would pass on the new one, and thus increasing the percentage of successes.

I am assuming that we are targeting the first of these. If so, the first two RFAs are relevant, because anyone asking if they should make a run at RFA will look to those to decide if it is worth it. People who would have succeeded in the old model would be largely irrelevant.

The problem with these situations is that the relevant stakeholders are not those who choose to take part, but those who decide not to run. Understanding why some people choose not to run for RFA is far more valuable than understanding why those who choose to did so. - Bilby (talk) 14:25, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I get it, and I don't think you're being difficult. But I think there are more than those two models, and the intent is not just more admins: it's possible to have a better process that produces the same number of admins, it's not just about the numbers. And then there's admin elections, which is a big untested elephant in the room. I wouldn't judge any of the RFA2024 reforms until, at the earliest, we've had admin elections. Levivich (talk) 14:42, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The direct aim (for this new mechanism, at least) was not to pass more admins. The rationale for the original proposal (which was originally for three days of comments followed by seven days of !voting) was given by Barkeep49 and can be found here, where he says "it has the potential to make RfA less unpleasant for candidates". Obviously this hasn't been properly tested yet, but this new candidate looks like someone who will be able to give the facility a proper test to see if it does actually make RfA less unpleasant for candidates. If it does that, there may be a knock-on effect that others will be willing to throw their hat in the RfA ring, thus raising the numbers overall. - SchroCat (talk) 15:01, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I ask to not be pinged about RfA. Thanks, Barkeep49 (talk) 15:13, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

And we're going to make this rather significant change to RfA based on a subjective analysis of a sample set of ...5. --Hammersoft (talk) 01:00, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Place for discussing the trial proposals

Obviously, discussion of the Phase II proposals is supposed to take place at the Phase II sections (Proposal 2, Proposal 16/16c, Proposal 17, and Proposal 24), but what about the trial proposals? I see discussion of the trial proposals in quite a few places on this page, but it's a little messy and hard to follow. Should discussion take place in a section here, on WT:RFA2024, or some other avenue I'm not thinking of? _Dial^mayo 11:59, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Nowhere would be best for right now, IMO. We should try the new stuff out first before we analyze or discuss it. It's too soon to learn anything about the reforms. Levivich (talk) 13:06, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Levivich that it's better to wait until there's been more experience with the trial process. We risk overreacting, particularly with the real-time analysis that has been ongoing. Plus if anyone is concerned about the behaviour of participants in requests for adminship, now's the time to influence community expectations. If you feel candidates aren't getting enough moral support, then offer some. Soni has added subsection headings to try to focus discussion into common points, as he discussed earlier. (I've previously advocated centering threads around specific discussion points to avoid repetition.) We have the opportunity to lead by example through our participation. isaacl (talk) 16:28, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm fine with wanting to wait before judging the trials prematurely, but a related point occurs to me. What I see here, at WT-RfA, includes a significant amount of editor concerns about how the trials so far have been going. But it seems to me (other editors' mileage may of course differ) that these concerns would lead logically to some thoughts that could be relevant at the current discussions at Phase 2 of RfA2024. In particular, I think the discussions about the reminder of civility norms and about admin recall are ones where I've been surprised at what I personally think is a lack of the skepticism that is the same skepticism that I have been seeing on this talk page. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:36, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I've just lost interest because I feel steps were jumped in the process, and now things like Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase II/Administrator recall are being ramrodded through. At some point, you just have to realize the project wants to screw itself over. --Hammersoft (talk) 23:02, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I have a feeling that you are not the only experienced editor who feels that way. But I urge editors who are concerned about that ramrodding (not to mention that screwing!) to weigh in before it becomes a fait accompli. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:06, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

It's too late. There's already been three weeks worth of participation there, and nobody is going to change their minds now. In a world where we're desperate for administrators, we're trying desperately hard to come up with a way to get rid of them <smdh>. And this, for something that happens at the ArbCom level twice a year. If ever there was a solution looking for a problem, this is it. I don't mean to be dramatic, but it gives me pause about whether to continue to be an administrator. --Hammersoft (talk) 00:46, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

By the way, we're now down to 438 active administrators. 16 months ago, we had 500. Give or take, we're going to be down to around 412 by the beginning of the year, and by this time next year, we'll be below 400. --Hammersoft (talk) 01:52, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Whether or not it's too late to change the minds of editors who already commented there, it's not too late for other editors (even if not you) to add their opinions to the discussion. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:56, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

There are plenty of proposals that have received consensus support about which I've been skeptical. Eventually, though, it gets tiresome for others if I begin every comment with "I'm skeptical of this proposal, even though it has consensus support. That being said, here is my feedback on implementation detail X..." At some point, I either get on board with working on the implementation details, or I leave it to others who feel strongly about making the implementation as effective as possible. isaacl (talk) 15:04, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Just to clarify, I'm really talking about when editors have skepticism about proposals that are still being discussed. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:36, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Sure. The level of consensus support for a proposal and its details is on a continuum, and thus in the collaborative spirit, I try to focus expressions of skepticism to aspects that haven't yet achieved consensus. isaacl (talk) 04:16, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

I just can't. We're at the point now where people just throw as much censoredspaghetti against the wall as they can to see what sticks. Nobody seems to give a damn about trying to actually figure out what's wrong and work the process. Just come up with "solutions" and get them applied and see if they work or not. Well, as we've seen with this stupid discussion trial, it doesn't work. I feel sorry for the people that have had to endure this discussion trial. --Hammersoft (talk) 21:06, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Feedback on the "new RFA process"

Hi all, as suggested above - I think the discussion stage is an excellent improvement to the RFA process, and I hope it continues in future. It's less binary and instant than the wave of negative/positive votes - I would like the status to say something like "discussion stage" or something that indicates that "voting" hasn't opened.

I hope others have feedback too! Turini2 (talk) 17:09, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

• I realize there are multiple, sometimes self-contradicting goals for this new process. But one data point is: I don't think that was any less painful for the candidate than a bunch of opposes. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:58, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

  I have to agree; it's still a pile-on whether it occurs in the General Comments or Oppose section. Pawnkingthree (talk) 19:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

  The above comments are correct, but I don't think that this RfA is really prototypical of the problems that people were trying to address. The discussion period seems like more of a potential fix for RfAs where an initially strong candidate is contested by an oppose that alleges significant misconduct, leading to reevaluation of past supports and perhaps lending itself to an overly polemic back-and-forth as oppose !voters try to swing against the wall of initial, presumably superficial, supports. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 19:38, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Levivich recently wrote Has anyone reading this ever, in any other aspect of their life, seen anything like this happen? Ever gone to a school where the entire faculty and student body gets together and talks about you? Or had a job where an all-staff meeting is called and the subject of discussion is the performance of an employee? And what do we have here? A bunch of of people lining up to explain "here's the reason why you suck". Only this time without so much as a single Moral support. I would frankly suggest IAR-deleting the RFA. ToadetteEdit does not deserve to be subjected to that. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 18:59, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

@Suffusion of Yellow, what do you mean? Toadette^Edit! 19:11, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I mean people are being needlessly cruel in your RFA. I seem to remember that once upon time RFAs like this were just deleted as a courtesy. If you want it kept, sure, that's your choice. If not, well, there's no policy supporting deletion, but hopefully someone will do the decent thing and WP:IAR. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 19:20, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

It's a nice idea in theory, but I think the discussion phase actually made it worse. I really don't see the point in a general comments section if people are just going to fill it up with would-be opposes, withdrawal recommendations etc. It's just moving the poor and bitey comments to another section on the page. --Ferien (talk) 19:29, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I admit I'm not the biggest fan of discussion only for a few days even if I think discussion is a valuable part of the RfA process. Maybe the next time we do RfA reform 2 years from now I'll try my luck? An idea popped into my head this afternoon: an actual vote for support/oppose akin to the securepoll process but without getting rid of the discussion aspect. We could just place a greater emphasis on general comments if one has feedback they wish to bring to the wider community (whether that's "wow I'm glad so and so is running, they do a great job at x" or "I have some concerns because of y"). But people don't have to pitch in if they don't want to and votes otherwise remain anonymous. I think we might get the best of both worlds from that. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 19:54, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

People will always be more motivated to explain why they're opposing than why they're supporting. With the SecurePoll option, people whose votes were going to be "yup" or "LGTM" or "not a jerk, has clue" will probably not make any public comments at all. So the whole "discussion" could just end as a pile-on of negativity, even if the silent majority supports the candidate. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 20:06, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't think a sample size of one (and not exactly a typical RfA, either) is sufficient for determining this. Elli (talk | contribs) 20:09, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I'd still suggest a running tally of the votes, just with them being anonymous. I don't think it'd necessarily end in a wall of negativity - I suspect many would be opposers would just oppose and leave it at that instead of engaging in discussion about why they're voting the way they are unless they think it's crucial that other voters be aware of such information. And I genuinely think that people in our community would be willing to leave positive feedback in these comments like they would if they wrote an extensive support vote in the current rfa environment. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 20:25, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, a running tally would remove my objection. A bit more difficult to anonymize; you'd need to keep secret the list of voters until the vote is over, and then shuffle it. But not impossible. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 20:35, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't think these difficulties are significant. That's not to say I disagree with you - just that I think this is easily surmounted. -- asilvering (talk) 03:04, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Anyways my random idea for the next time RfA reform kicks around is somewhat off-topic for this conversation. If anyone has any further feedback for it (whether it's to say they think it's great or it wouldn't work), feel free to stop by at my talk page. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 19:24, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

This is a poor test case for the new idea. This sort of RfA would also have been painful under the old system. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 20:18, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

1. This is not a typical RfA. If this RfA had happened a month ago, it would have been a simple snow close after multiple moral support opposes. Perhaps we should encourage people not to self-nom under this system during the test period. Valereee (talk) 20:46, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Discussions of RfA reforms have always focused primarily, if not entirely, on ones that have a chance of succeeding. It's very difficult to imagine how we deliver a WP:NOTNOW or WP:SNOW outcome in a way that isn't painful, but in any case the discussion-only trial was not intended to address that and explicitly said that they did not count towards the trial period. – Joe (talk) 09:22, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I'd argue it would've been less painful under the old system—definitely still painful—but however many people would've opposed, it'd get closed as SNOW or NOTNOW, and it'd be over in a few hours. Instead, this discussion has drug out for over a day and the pileons keep, well, piling on. Queen of ♡ | speak 19:14, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

There's some discussion at the RFA's talk page and the candidate's user talk about this. I'm not sure it's that clear. Experienced editors, Arbs, and crats have all pushed back on snow closure being possible here, and the main reasons presented have nothing to do with this trial. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:24, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

No one pushed back until the close was reverted, though? What I mean is, it was for ~ten hours treated as noncontroversial. Now that it's controversial, no one is willing to repeat the close. Only a very few actually seem to have objected to it, and as far as I can tell even fewer think the revert was a positive. Valereee (talk) 19:26, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

People have been willing to repeat the close, but it hasn't stuck. Other than that, I agree with you. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:32, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Who repeated the close, @Firefangledfeathers? I saw that the RfA disappeared for a few minutes, but I couldn't figure out why. Valereee (talk) 19:34, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

See Special:History/Wikipdia:Requests for adminship for the back and forth. ProcrastinatingReader→ Cremastra→NoobThreePointOh→Primefac. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:38, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

There is no revision history at that link. Sorry for being an idiot, I know it has something to do with transclusion... Valereee (talk) 19:40, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Special:History/Wikipedia:Requests for adminship; FFF misspelt "Wikipedia". Queen of ♡ | speak 19:41, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Hahahahaha Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:42, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

hahahahaha...and I didn't catch it! Valereee (talk) 19:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

And this is why I love Wikipdia, the free encyclopdia anyone can edit... Queen of ♡ | speak 19:45, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Just a typo: Special:History/Wikipedia:Requests for adminship NotAGenious (talk) 19:41, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

So that wasn't actually it not sticking, though...noob failed to correctly close, Pf simply fixed it? Valereee (talk) 19:46, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

It is true that removing the transclusion isn't the way to close. Maybe Pf doesn't object to closure? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:49, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

The only thing I'm thinking is that the crats at this point seem to be treating this cautiously because of the reversion of the close? I mean, we're all treating it that way. Valereee (talk) 19:51, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I am "treating this cautiously" because after someone asked if they had withdrawn, I sought confirmation and they said no, they were not withdrawing. I do not necessarily object to someone deciding that this is a TOOSOON/NOTNOW case and closing (as it states at WP:RFA, anyone can make that call), but I personally am going to wait for a go/no go from Toadette before closing, especially since the close has already been reverted once. Primefac (talk) 20:01, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I get it. I wasn't jumping on it either. Valereee (talk) 20:06, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Kind of depends. The reversion of the snow close, which turned the original close into a controversial edit, could have been made under either system. Under the old, it might have meant the vote was left open basically for the entire seven days. If this one gets reclosed quickly after voting starts, which kind of resets the clock, it could end only a few hours later. Valereee (talk) 19:26, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Related to the section above too, but I've asked a question at Template talk:RFX report about enacting 3b on the status column. NotAGenious (talk) 19:28, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

In the interest of not unduly biasing the current request in progress, or having the candidate undergo a meta-analysis of their request while it is live, perhaps further retrospective discussion can be delayed until at least the request is over? isaacl (talk) 21:03, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for this suggestion. However, it is now over, and I have to say: this was awful. If we're going to continue using this "comment only" bit at the beginning, we absolutely have to make it clear that comments that are in essence describing a vote are not allowed. But I don't see any way for this to be possible. To take a single comment that I think illustrates the problem well (I don't mean to pick on anyone in particular! but Daniel, since I'm quoting you, it seemed best to ping you), this comment is clearly an oppose vote: Was not impressed by this DRV submission, which was very ill-judged. When challenged by numerous editors, including directly as a reply, failed to show up to defend their position. This would be a strong oppose for lack of experience and capabilities from me.

But let's say we remove the vote part. That would fix the problem, right? No. We're left with: Was not impressed by this DRV submission, which was very ill-judged. When challenged by numerous editors, including directly as a reply, failed to show up to defend their position. Come on! We can all see this is an oppose vote. But how on earth would anyone bring up legitimate concerns without sounding like an oppose vote? I could rewrite this to something more hesitant, like "I'm not sure this DRV submission showed a willingness to adapt to consensus. When other editor challenged this submission, the candidate didn't comment." But that's no better. It's just more passive-aggressive. -- asilvering (talk) 03:03, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

The instructions on the AfD page say "Please keep discussion constructive and civil. If you are unfamiliar with the nominee, please thoroughly review their contributions before commenting." So I thoroughly reviewed their contributions before commenting. "Voting opens at 12:21, 1 May 2024 (UTC). In the meantime, discussion may only take place under § General comments", so I placed my review of their contributions under General comments. I didn't "vote", but indicated how I viewed their candidacy to be totally transparent, based upon my review of their contributions. I felt it was less passive aggressive to write my perspective on their future candidacy, rather than a more vague comment that everyone knows what it means but lacks the candidness of actually saying it. Not sure what else I'm meant to do? Daniel (talk) 03:28, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't think anyone is criticizing you. I believe you just happened to phrase your comment in a way that illustrates how difficult it is to discuss a candidate without indicating a vote. Joyous! Noise! 05:25, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

You're right, of course - my frustration is more with the process causing this confusion. If someone in good faith feels like they're doing the right thing (like I was here), but their action is counter-intuitive to the actual goal of that process, then maybe either a) the process needs to be tweaked or b) the instructions for said process need to be clearer. Cheers, Daniel (talk) 05:31, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm starting to get the sense (possibly incorrectly) that what people want to see is a wave of solely positive comments and discussion points. That's all well and good, but I'm concerned it might set some users up to expect their RFA will succeed and then be crushed when the actual vote comes and it isn't successful. Intothatdarkness 13:10, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

If I'm not mistaken, part of the reason for this trial run is to find a solution for the common trend of dozens of support !votes being cast before the candidate has really been scrutinized. While this is a worthy objective, I do wonder if we may have tipped the scales too far in the opposite direction. That said, this particular RfA probably isn't going to be very instructive for evaluating the trial run. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 19:07, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I think it would be easier to discuss good points ("several GAs") and bad points ("not many edits to AIV") about a candidate if there were no issues that are almost universally seen as disqualifying. You just can't make up for recent blocks or recent poor judgment about copyright or similar core article issues. —Kusma (talk) 10:05, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

@Daniel, I'm not criticizing you. As I said, I chose your comment because it illustrates the problem well. I don't think there's any way to write it differently that would not come off as an oppose vote. You could have behaved differently, but I don't know that you should have - that is, I can't really come up with any way for you to raise this concern in the discussion without either appearing to be an oppose vote or talking in weird circumlocutions that don't really help anybody. -- asilvering (talk) 15:22, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Do you think that all comments that raised concerns appeared to be oppose votes? I don't, I think there are plenty of examples on the rfa page of comments that are not votes. Contra to your view above, my view is if you take out the last sentence of Daniel's comment, it reads like a concern raised that's not an oppose vote. Were it not for the last sentence, I would not assume that Daniel was going to vote oppose. I wouldn't assume that a criticism meant the editor would vote oppose or that a compliment meant the editor would vote support. Levivich (talk) 15:45, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

When I wrote "Come on! We can all see this is an oppose vote." I did mean that. -- asilvering (talk) 20:46, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I closed that section of the RfA RfC and don't remember seeing any discussion of forbidding comments that indicate an intended vote. You're very welcome to propose such a measure, but it was not an explicit part of the proposal that we're trialling now. Personally, I find it difficult to imagine how you could make a meaningful comment, that isn't a question, without giving away which way you are leaning. – Joe (talk) 09:28, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

@Joe Roe For what it's worth, I'm uncertain where I land on Asilvering's argument. But, I personally thought it was obviously in the proposal (at least to the extent my comment below says). If RFA is converting to "No support or oppose votes for 2 days" and editors go "If I could, I'd vote oppose" or similar, that pretty much defeats the point of trial-ing a discussion based setup. I did not care to discuss it because I didn't think I'd need to. "Hey let's not do X for some time" does not need an explicit "But what if I threaten to X" clause; that way lies more Wikilawyering. Soni (talk) 14:14, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I think the point is that any vote, !vote or quasi-vote expressed in the discussion section will not be counted when determining the outcome. That is, at least, how Barkeep49 described his aim when he proposed it ([discussion before voting] has the potential to take some of the temperature of [RfA] down since people will be able to express concerns and respond to those concerns without the immediate stakes of having that discussion impact the support percentage). – Joe (talk) 14:24, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I will note that my proposal is not what passed and so how I described it is irrelevant. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:31, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

But the proposal that did pass was derived from your proposal, just changing the number of days. This was noted in the proposal that formally passed (3b) and the close. – Joe (talk) 14:39, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

My reading of the proposal differs from both Joe's and BK's. There were two proposals: 3, by BK, and 3b, by utbc. 3 didn't pass but 3b did.

The text of proposal 3b is, in its entirety, Note I have just added an alternative, proposing a 2 5-day RfA trial instead of the 3 7-day trial originally proposed. This clearly means "the same thing as 3, except change it from 3 7 to 2 5." So the text of 3 is very relevant to what 3b proposed.

The text of proposal 3 included: For the first 3 days (72 hours) no "Support", "Oppose", or "Neutral" comments/!votes may be made. Optional questions may still be asked and answered, and general comments may still be left.

To me, no "Support", "Oppose", or "Neutral" comments/!votes may be made is pretty clear: don't say whether you support, oppose, or are neutral, about the candidate. Because doing so would, indeed, defeat the whole purpose of having 2 (or 3) days during which no support/oppose/neutral comments/!votes may be made.

So I do think there is consensus forbidding such comments, and that consensus comes from reading 3b together with 3, which is how 3b must be read. Levivich (talk) 14:42, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

@Joe: I just realized that your re-statement of the proposal in your close of 3b changed "no "Support", "Oppose", or "Neutral" comments/!votes may be made" to "no !votes (comments indicating "support", "oppose", or "neutral") may be made". Subtle, but I see those two things as being materially different for reasons that are now apparent: It's not just no "[support/oppose/neutral] !votes," but no "[support/oppose/neutral] comments/!votes", and that word "comments" being in there, and not just "!votes" is meaningful, at least under my reading. What do you think? Is this just scrivener's error, or was there something you saw in the discussion that led you to rephrase that part? Levivich (talk) 15:05, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I think I just thought it was a bit clunkily worded. To me a !vote and a "comment indicating support/oppose/neutral" are the same thing.

In general I'm not saying that the understanding that "no votes" means "no indicating how you will vote" is unreasonable, just that in the absence of a clear statement to that effect in the proposal, and no explicit discussion of it until now, as far as I can recall, it seems a bit too flimsy to hang a new rule off. – Joe (talk) 15:49, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Comments like This would be a strong oppose for lack of experience and capabilities from me or I will automatically oppose are clearly comments indicating "support", "oppose", or "neutral", right? I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but as I read your closing statement, there is consensus not to have such comments during the first two days... right? Levivich (talk) 15:56, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I think they're differentiated by the insertion of the word "will" or "would". – Joe (talk) 06:16, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I do not think it's a 'new rule' but a simple 'Rules as Intended' scenario. To me, the central point of a "Discussion only N days" came from a clear "Why is this proposal a thing", which was 'To reduce stress on RFA candidates'. To me, it's not a bureaucratic note of "Say whatever you want, but we only start counting 2 days later" but a "We find vote-piling is stressful, so we are not voting at all for 2 days". Its core argument derives from "Discussion is less stressful than a bunch of Opposes, but without necessarily losing the 'bringing things up' and feedbacks" in my opinion.

Had I realised how your close differed from what I imagined, I'd bring it up post close. It's hard to notice distinction, but with significant implications (as we can see). So I guess the main question isn't "Is this a new rule" but "Which one did the discussion imply". Soni (talk) 16:01, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't think asking what discussions imply rather than what they explicitly said is a good road to go down. When something is unclear, surely the best and easiest thing to do is to just discuss it further? – Joe (talk) 06:19, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

That's what we're doing here. I just wanted to point out that it's not a "new rule", that's all.

But yeah, we could benefit from a quick discussion on "What comments are okay/not" and "Do we need any enforcement of this/by who?" (Probably just crats?). So far this section has a lot of opinions in all directions Soni (talk) 06:37, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

There's a big gap between "giving away which way you are leaning" and (to take one clear example) "Should I be able to participate in the voting time, I will automatically oppose in line with my past precedence". This is a support/oppose/neutral comment/!vote, it is not general discussion. In fact, it says nothing at all about the candidate, and just an announcement of one person's voting criteria. It's a vote, clearly a vote, and I think there was consensus to not do this. Of course we can imagine less-clear examples, but "I would vote X" and similar constructions are a clear examples of votes, not discussion. Levivich (talk) 14:47, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Personally, I find it difficult to imagine how you could make a meaningful comment, that isn't a question, without giving away which way you are leaning. Yes, I agree. That's my point. -- asilvering (talk) 15:24, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

"The candidate has 2 FAs and 4 GAs and over 50 DYK credits. They have made no edits to AIV. They seem experienced with content and less experienced with vandalism." A comment like this would just be reporting on research on the candidate without giving away what I personally find important in an admin candidate. —Kusma (talk) 15:50, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Can you try a similar comment for when there's something specific being brought up? I agree that "They seem experienced with content and less experienced with vandalism" doesn't in itself come off as a vote (unless, of course, the candidate has expressed a desire to work in anti-vandalism, in which case it sure sounds a lot more like an oppose). But a lot of the discussion about the problems with RFA come down to something like "it's awful that the candidate can be doing well and then get totally scuppered because of a single comment they made somewhere, it makes people feel paranoid and ends up being a drama-fest". I don't really see how "you can bring it up, but you can't vote about it" makes that aspect any better, or how people who are really trying to abide by that rule would be able to bring up incidents they think are important without coming off as being an "undisclosed oppose". -- asilvering (talk) 20:58, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I imagine we could get discussions of the following type.

A: "candidate used invalid ILIKEIT arguments in these AfDs about snooker players".

B: "but they have hundreds of excellent AfDs unrelated to snooker, so I think they understand notability"

A: asks candidate whether they will recuse from closing snooker AfDs

Sometimes there are problems where there are solutions other than opposing the candidate, and it may be worth discussing them first before voting. —Kusma (talk) 22:33, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

• (ec) I think my takeaway is for people to understand that a discussion is different from a voting process. This isn't a typical ANI discussion where consensus will be evaluated from just arguments; we have a separate vote later. Not everything needed mildly rephrased repetitions. Perhaps editors/crats should informally discourage pile ons more (More section headings? Cutting down discussion sooner?).
  Comments like Should I be able to participate in the voting time, I will automatically oppose or bolded "too soon"s do not do any favours either. The point of a "discussion only" time period is to avoid votes, not to merely make them early. Soni (talk) 03:07, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

  I agree that commenters need to be aware that there's no need to repeat any points, since the relative strengths of each discussion point will be weighed by each person weighing in during the support/oppose phase. (Commenters can engage in discussion to further expand or counter points.) In general, Wikipedia editors ought to exercise restraint when an outcome seems apparent.(*)

  Looking at the other end of the process, it's hard to dissuade editors from doing something they decide they really want to do. They will say they've read the relevant advice, and be given opinions from experienced editors against proceeding, and yet still go ahead. Maybe there should be a procedure to initiate a quick temporary pause, where some experienced editors could pause a request for administrative privileges to check with the candidate if they want to proceed. But English Wikipedia's decision-making traditions make it hard to make decisions quickly, and many Wikipedia editors don't like having gatekeepers (which certainly can lead to clique issues).

  (*) I realize, of course, that editors doing what they really want to do applies also to commenters. A lot of editors like expressing a viewpoint set in bold, and so it happens all the time even when editors are asked not to express a final opinion and focus on discussion points instead. isaacl (talk) 04:11, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

  In general, Wikipedia editors ought to exercise restraint when an outcome seems apparent. Honestly, I think this is the crux of a lot of our issues here. We like to see our own comments. We like the little notifications telling us that our comments have triggered replies. This invariably leads to pile-ons in the comment sections. Joyous! Noise! 16:18, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

  your signature being placed after this comment... oh no, haha asilvering (talk) 20:59, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

• I'm not impressed with how this first one went. 1) It interferes with the normal RFA dynamic of the first day or two being mostly supports, which could be an important morale booster. 2) It seems more disorganized. People are still supporting and opposing with the tone of their comments, but it is no longer placed in the corresponding section. 3) Folks that comment now have to remember to come back in 2 days and copy paste their comments into the support/oppose sections. I'll keep an open mind since we have 4 more of these to do, but not off to the best start. –Novem Linguae (talk) 03:51, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

  Editors can and should leave comments during the discussion phase extolling the virtues of the candidate. This dynamic doesn't have to change. isaacl (talk) 04:14, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

  I expect I will leave co-nomination style statements in the discussion phase, assuming I know the candidate and wish to support them. —Kusma (talk) 09:56, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

About 5 trial runs

• P.S. I guess according to the proposal 3b close and ProcrastinatingReader's WP:NOTNOW close, this latest RFA doesn't count towards the 5 trial runs total, and we still need to do 5 more of these? –Novem Linguae (talk) 04:18, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

  Not 5 more of these. 5 real RFAs. Hopefully next time people will refrain from using the nonvoting period to indicate how they will vote. Levivich (talk) 05:38, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

  The instructions on the RfA page itself should be improved to clarify this, especially during the trial period. Nowhere on the RfA did it state that you could not indicate how you would vote, whether implicitly or explicitly. Daniel (talk) 05:40, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

  That's because there has been no consensus to restrict people from doing so. – Joe (talk) 09:24, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

  This seemed like a serious RFA by an experienced editor, so I'm a bit surprised it doesn't count. But that's fine, let's follow the wording of the close. 5 non-SNOW non-NOTNOW RFAs or six months (September 24, 2024), I think it says, whichever comes first. –Novem Linguae (talk) 08:21, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

  I think it is correct that RfAs that do not go into the voting phase after the discussion phase do not count for the purpose of the experiment. —Kusma (talk) 09:57, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

  Moot for now, Cremastra has reopened. Valereee (talk) 12:27, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

  It is still going to end up as SNOW or NOTNOW. —Kusma (talk) 13:37, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

  Perhaps a BN should strike such comments in the future. — ♠ Ixtal ^{( T / C )} ⁂ Non nobis solum. ♠ 15:35, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

  But Joe (who closed the discussion that led to this trial) has explicitly stated that there's no consensus to forbid such comments. Perhaps a bolded Support or Oppose would be downgraded, but those that merely quack like a support or oppose are fair game. As noted above, many kinds of feedback are impossible to give without implicitly supporting or opposing anyway.  — Amakuru (talk) 16:51, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

  What if a sixth RfA while the fifth is still open? My reading of the close says that the sixth and any subsequent RfAs opened before the fifth has been closed will also fall under the trial rules.

  The alternative is that we have two simultaneous RfAs with different rules, where the newer RfA has voting open several days before the older one. Toadspike [Talk] 19:33, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

  Five means five, in my opinion. I think the sixth one should be done under the old procedure. –Novem Linguae (talk) 11:37, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

  I agree that five means five, but one could read the next five RfAs that are not closed per WP:SNOW or WP:NOTNOW as requiring us to wait for the fifth RfA to end, to know for sure that it won't be SNOW or NOTNOWed. Toadspike [Talk] 11:42, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

  Just how we would handle a new RfA, if 4 RfAs have been completed without being closed as SNOW or NOTNOW, and one is currently open. We will not know, at least for a while, if the 5th RfA will complete without SNOW or NOTNOW (and, as we have just seen, that may not be obvious during the discussion phase). So, do we require that next requester to wait until we know how the 5th RfA will end? I don't see an obvious answer. Donald Albury 14:44, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Reopen and reclose

Since the RfA is underway once again, I repeat my suggestion to defer retrospective analysis until at least the RfA is completed. isaacl (talk) 17:21, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Cremastra has reverted his reversal of the close. So third time's the charm, I guess? Queen of ♡ | speak 20:11, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

This is what the great Kenneth Parcell would have called a "clusterwhoops". Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 20:15, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Sorry about that mess... I just hope no-one will revert my self-revert, which would cause everything to become so much more confusing. Cremastra (talk) 20:16, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Out of your hands now! Thanks for self-reverting. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 20:24, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I was fairly active in the discussions about the reform proposals, and I tried to make the case that we should take it slow on implementing stuff, and subject most of it to the Phase 2 part of the process before implementing. But I got pushback from editors who felt like, if something clearly had a lot more support than opposition, then we should go ahead and treat it as having consensus. At this point, for this particular trial, it looks like we were going to run into harsh reality, one way or the other, sooner or later. I'm on the side of the editors who say here that we cannot regulate that RfA participants only comment in general, without indicating how they intend to !vote. It's unrealistic to think that we can reduce that rule to something that is enforceable. It can't be done. Editors will want to say what they want to say, and if we demand that nobody indicate a planned !vote, people will just find artful ways to skirt the edges. There are so many ways to write about one's opinion without quite framing it as a stance, that it simply will be unenforceable. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:44, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Trial info request

I generally come to RFAs from my watchlist and have not followed the reform discussions, and it took me quite a bit of time to figure out why the RFA looked different and why everyone was noting that ToadetteEdit "was the first under the new system". Would it be possible to put a bigger banner/info in the lead on WP:RFA, or the individual RFAs, saying that there's a trial happening and linking to which trial(s) are ongoing? Right now the only information is a half-sentence in #Expressing opinions that I missed until my second time reading the page. Or maybe add another line linking to the trial information in the Support/Oppose/Neutral sections where it currently just says "Voting opens at [date]"? Alyo (chat·edits) 13:45, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't know, it sounds quite bureaucratic and might risk turning the next few RfAs into reruns of the RFA2024 RfC rather than a real test of how the changes work. The way I look at these 'trials' is just that we've agreed to make a change to policy, and also agreed to revisit that decision after a fixed amount of time. Until then, WP:RFA and the individual RfA pages describe the process RfA voters should follow now. The links and discussion archives are all there for those who want to dive into why the process looks like it does. – Joe (talk) 14:33, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

My thought is that for someone (*cough*) whose path is Watchlist-->"An RFA is open" link-->the RFA candidate link in the box on the right, it's complete opaque why "Voting opens at [date]. In the meantime, discussion may only take place under § General comments." I thought I'd gotten to the RFA before it had officially opened and that the candidate had either requested feedback from a bunch of people or was so known that a lot of people had watchlisted their RFA page. And also that maybe Special:Watchlist was glitching and showing me an RFC that it shouldn't be. I realize a lot of this is based on me being dumb, but if you end up on the individual RFA without doing a full read of WP:RFA (which, why would I?) then there's no explanation why it's different than every other RFA I've ever been on. Alyo (chat·edits) 14:42, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Is something like what I added to Toadette's support section adequate? Floquenbeam (talk) 14:48, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I added ", per a recent RFC." to Floq's addition. Levivich (talk) 14:51, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Absolutely, much appreciated. Alyo (chat·edits) 14:53, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

It might also be good to have watchlist notices for all RFAs in this trial mention it explicitly. "A new RFA is up. Note that Support/Oppose/Neutral votes may only be made after 1 May 0000 UTC". Or something roughly along those lines, so it's clear from Watchlist notice that something is different Soni (talk) 15:37, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I kind of wonder whether it might actually be counterproductive to call these trials out as "something new" on watchlists. Valereee (talk) 16:31, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I suspect it will not be necessary; I have added language to the preload page similar to what Floq et al added to the live RFA so that it is more clear at the next RFA that this is a trial process. Primefac (talk) 18:16, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Holy freaking facepalm What an absolute disaster this 'trial' is. Nobody can snow/notnow close it (there's reverting going on over that), it's a freaking shambles as is, some don't know what the hell is going on, no problem was identified that this would solve, and the candidate themselves acknowledges it's a failure but won't withdraw. Not to mention that these 'trial' RFAs are being inflicted involuntarily upon RfA candidates who want to become administrators. Not to mention that now, instead of snow closes on RfAs that will obviously fail, we now get two days of slapping the crap out of a candidate until !voting begins. What an absolutely colossal eff-up. Take this steaming pile back to the drawing board and think about its impact, potential unintended consequences, and just what the hell problems it's supposed to solve vs. the massive problems its inducing. Wow. Just utter wow. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't think that's really a fair assessment. This wasn't a typical RfA, and the snow close probably should have been left alone. Valereee (talk) 21:04, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

It wasn't an RFA. It was a public hazing. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 21:30, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

@Suffusion of Yellow, Is there a difference? Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 21:54, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Fair enough, no, but if you're nasty to someone who stands a realistic chance of passing, you can excuse it to yourself with "well, they'll have to put up with the same shit when some troll drags them to ANI, so they better get used to it". Piling on to a doomed RFA with "and another thing" is ... well, I'll hold my thoughts per WP:NPA. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 22:10, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

@Suffusion of Yellow None of what you say is wrong-- you've described every RfA that isn't a blow out. That's why I'll never vote oppose. RfA is one of the oldest, most important hazing rituals on the internet, and I see a lot of that as stemming from how uniquely powerful-- and fickle-- the Wikipedia community is. It's a cultural thing. I don't think the comment delay is necessarily bad because of that. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 22:19, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Without the delay, either there is a "cushion" of supports, so the candidate knows that not everyone hates them, or it's closed (and maybe even deleted) within hours, before an excess of pile-ons can happen. This new format sets up the opportunity for two days worth of pile-ons, the excuse being "well, we don't know how the vote is going to go, they might pass." Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 22:28, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

We have a sample size of one, and it did not go for two days, and was in fact snow-closed within hours (14 hours). I'm not sure that other snow-closed RFAs are snow-closed much sooner than that, and I don't think they're deleted; sometimes they're courtesy blanked, and so was this one. Also, there are different kinds of snow/notnow RFAs: this one wasn't like one that's made by a non-extended-confirmed editor, which might be closed within an hour and deleted; this one was by an experienced editor, so that would lend itself to a longer period before it was closed as snow/notnow... long enough for their to be a pile on. In fact, the only way we get to snow closes in such cases is with a pile-on; it's snow-closed because of the pile-on. So, pile-ons are inevitable for any non-obvious-but-still-snow RFA. While I agree on the larger points (RFA is hazing, this discussion period idea will not make RFA less toxic), this RFA doesn't seem to have been much different than any others. Levivich (talk) 22:37, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Agree about the sample size of one; I'm still willing to let the experiment run out. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 22:53, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

If having a bank of supports is deemed important for all requests for adminship, then the process could require a nomination period where editors supporting the request would comment, with a somewhat low threshold required for the request to proceed. Without changing the process, potential candidates could be encouraged to do this themselves, with the understanding that if they can't find enough people to support them, then their chances aren't good at making a successful request. isaacl (talk) 22:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

@Moneytrees: "Is there a difference?" I'd say it's analogous to the difference between a multi-level marketing company and a pyramid scheme. Or between an escort and a hooker. Kurtis ^(talk) 19:09, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

@Suffusion of Yellow, I feel like what you're talking about would have happened under any system. This wasn't a ridiculous nom. I think many people would have tried to treat this with respect -- and in fact many did --and we could have ended up with something that went on much longer. If it hadn't been for the reversion of the close, this would have been over in hours. Valereee (talk) 01:37, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

What, you think it would have gone perfectly and there'd be no hard feelings if they had submitted one in the old style? jp×g🗯️ 20:48, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

"Typical" RFAs

• "I don't think a sample size of one (and not exactly a typical RfA, either) is sufficient for determining this."
• " 1. This is not a typical RfA. If this RfA had happened a month ago, it would have been a simple snow close after multiple moral support opposes."

Ahem.

• Typical RfA, January 2024 – withdrawn within 6 hours
• Typical RfA, November 2023 – withdrawn within an hour
• Typical RfA, April 2023 – withdrawn within 3 hours
• Typical RfA, January 2023 – NOT NOW after just 2 hours, despite the candidate's statement:

  "I am requesting this go the full 7 days. I value input from the community as a whole whether it's support or oppose and requesting it be closed only 2 or 3 days would curtail that."

• Typical RfA, October 2022 – SNOW within 2 hours

This typical type of RfA happens much less frequently than it used to, but all types of RfAs happen less frequently these days.
I don't follow the logic that you can NOTNOW or SNOW when the vote is 0–0, i.e. before voting has even started, unless the so-called "discussion" section, where !voting doesn't happen is interpreted as a "pre-voting" not voting section where not not votes are not voted, but are counted anyway.

This trial should be SNOW closed, because of this fatal flaw. A better option for handling pre-vote discussions for first-time candidates would be to mandate that they open an RfA candidate poll before they are allowed to open an RfA. I'm not sure that's a good option, but it could be an option for a viable trial. – wbm1058 (talk) 15:55, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

It's not necessarily a flaw—if the discussion hadn't been closed prematurely, it wouldn't be a problem. Cremastra (talk) 17:11, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

(It is hilarious to read that community consensus should be "SNOW closed" for a "fatal flaw") On a more serious note, OCRP has problems too, like a lack of participation and the danger of digging up or manufacturing skeletons that tank future RfAs. The consensus in favor of a better mentorship system reflects this. What I would support is requiring candidates to have at least one nominator, since that seems to be the best mentorship we can offer. Toadspike [Talk] 19:30, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Discussion of discussion-only period

You are invited to participate at the phase II review of the ongoing trial of the discussion-only period :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 23:24, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

You are also invited to participate in a discussion of the discussion of the discussion-only period at Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase II/Discussion-only period. —⁠andrybak (talk) 17:13, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Asking two questions

I have eliminated the parameter for the second question number from Template:Rfa-question, as it should always be the first question number plus 1. So, if you want to ask two questions, then you should use {{subst:Rfa-question|first question number|question 1|question 2}} rather than {{subst:Rfa-question|first question number|question 1|second question number|question 2}}. GTrang (talk) 14:13, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Early start by an hour?

Moved from Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship/DreamRimmer, since it quickly became unrelated to the RFA itself. Primefac (talk) 11:03, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

@SchroCat, why did you do this? – robertsky (talk) 09:19, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

I suspect because of time zone things. Anyone on UTC 1 will see "starts at 10:02" and potentially forget that "10:02" their time is really 09:02 UTC. Primefac (talk) 09:26, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Like DST offsets not accounted for? That makes sense. – robertsky (talk) 09:30, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Indeed. I forgot that we in the UK are currently on BST, rather than UTC. - SchroCat (talk) 09:37, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Oh well. The milk has spilled, and it is just an hour off. I don't think much can be faulted on this. A pedantic me would request you to re-sign the vote after 20 minutes from now lest others seek to invalidate the early votes in a toss-up, if it happens. If this 2-day thing becomes a permanent thing, we can look into solutions to warn people not to vote early if they do so mistakenly. – robertsky (talk) 09:47, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

I have always though that a tool to lock sections of a page would be beneficial, rather than locking the whole page. That would be useful in these situations too. Alternatively, not having the voting sections in place until the kick-off time would also help. - SchroCat (talk) 10:04, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Prior to the note being added, that was my thinking as well (hiding them entirely, that is) much as we do with the auto-close code. Something to discuss at WT:RFA though, not necessarily here. Primefac (talk) 10:10, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

The conditional statement that would have automatically opened up the voting at the right time didn't help much here because it was manually removed an hour early. If that conditional contained the entire voting section, it probably still would have been manually removed an hour early. Not that this was a big deal, but there's probably not much we can do about people removing code because they think the code is broken, don't understand what it is, or don't notice it's there. I don't think the problem is with the code. Maybe add to the hidden comment something that alerts people that the code will automatically open the voting at the right time? Levivich (talk) 10:18, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

How about The code below will automatically "open" the voting by hiding the notice at the correct time? See Special:Diff/1226653241. —⁠andrybak (talk) 01:22, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

I was thinking that maybe we can explore using an edit filter to warn editors to not vote if they make modifications in the voting section early. – robertsky (talk) 10:20, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Edit filters are loaded on every single edit page on the entire wiki, so in general should be useful on a large number of pages to justify the performance overhead. –Novem Linguae (talk) 13:53, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Could this be done by transcluding the section from another page (say, Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/DreamRimmer/Vote), and locking that page? Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 10:57, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but that makes things complicated. A {{hide until}} call (or something similar) would actually hide the text/sections entirely so there would be no reason for anyone to be editing it unless they were editing the entire page and didn't then notice the code saying that it was hiding the voting. The other option, as Levivich says, is to possibly indicate that the "this isn't open yet" code also contains a note that the code disappears when the time is right. Primefac (talk) 11:02, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

It might look like I'm going to fall out with SchroCat over footnotes and pages n, etc., in the near future, but he's one of the best editors we've got and is trustworthy as hell. That's for the record. ——Serial Number 54129 11:32, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

No need to do this, and should be reminded that all times in Wikipedia are in UTC and not your local time. Just a random Wikipedian^(talk) 06:49, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

UTC 00:00 (UTC for short) is also known as Greenwich Mean Time. SchroCat above says they live in the United Kingdom, which confusingly isn't always on Greenwich Mean Time, "despite having Greenwich". —⁠andrybak (talk) 08:08, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Sdkb RfA debrief

Hi all! I wrote a debrief of my RfA from February and have added it to the debriefs page. You can read it at User:Sdkb/RfA debrief. Cheers, Sdkb ^talk 22:38, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Some additional conversation at User talk:Sdkb § RfA debrief. Sdkb ^talk 16:48, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Clovermoss RfA debrief

Sdkb's debrief above reminded me that I really should get around to writing mine. It can be found here. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 13:04, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Floq's RFA debrief

What a wonderful procrastination opportunity. I'm just self-important enough to think that a third one would be useful too. I assume there's some central repository to link to these? Anyway, it's here. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:23, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Debriefs. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:25, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! Floquenbeam (talk) 17:25, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Are admins automatically CUd?

I thought all candidates were ran through checkuser, however I cannot find written mention of this and don't want to hallucinate something that happened one time to be procedure. ^Thanks,L3X1 ◊distænt write◊ 18:02, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

@L3X1: no, they aren't. This has been proposed and rejected before. Elli (talk | contribs) 18:04, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

I think it has also been something of an "urban legend" type belief that this actually is done but kept quiet. If it is kept quiet, it is being kept so quiet that even arbcom aren't aware of it. There was this RFA, in which the committee was made aware of a suspiscion that the candidate was a sock of banned troll, and a subsequent investigation produced evidence that this was the case. Basically there has to be an actual reason to CU an admin candidate, or to use CU in any other capacity. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 22:18, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

thanks for the link, that's the rfa I had in mind. ^Thanks,L3X1 ◊distænt write◊ 03:54, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

If there's any doubt that we need more admins...

...I've made a graph comparing stats across English projects. Active users per admin is in blue. Cremastra (talk) 20:20, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

That could instead just be showing that those other projects have more admins than needed. The ones you've chosen are all also kind of niche projects. It still wouldn't "prove" anything, but I'd be more curious what the ratios are like for German, Spanish, French, Hindi, Japanese, etc. etc. Wikipedias. We may very well need more admins (pending a good definition of "need"), but this graph doesn't prove it. Floquenbeam (talk) 20:55, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

My understanding is that eswiki has a more dire admin shortage than we do but that's just an offhand impression I've received from talking to people from other projects. It's possible I'm misremembering what was said. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 20:59, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

To me this is a more stark demonstration. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:09, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

So you would actually be looking for a number of users per number of admins willing to wade into AE ratio. That's gonna be much higher. Floquenbeam (talk) 21:13, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm not concerned about ratios, I'm concerned about important tasks going undone. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:18, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

That must be why Wikinews has such high quality standards and so little vandalism. Spicy (talk) 21:10, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Wikinews is a weird case - it has many inactive admins and relatively few active users. So the stats don't follow. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 21:26, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

News articles there have been fully protected (in some sort?) after days of being approved and published, preventing any further vandalism on those articles. Well, vandals might seek other pages to mess around, but then what else is there for vandals? George Ho (talk) 17:55, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Commons would be an interesting comparison. Commons is in quite dire need of administrators. Some backlogs there stretch back months, even almost a year at one point. --Hammersoft (talk) 22:28, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Per commons:Special:Statistics, they have 203 active users per administrator. Cremastra (talk) 22:50, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

I'd be interested to see a graph showing admin backlogs over the last few years. Levivich (talk) 22:51, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Would also be interested in this...... what we need is to unbundle some of the features so that editors not interested in being admins can do some tasks.... as we did with "template editor" many years ago. Moxy🍁 23:00, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

That's handy, but it's not the whole story, and doesn't capture the more difficult admin tasks. Average time to close, admins commenting, and reports archived without closure at AE would be good. Similar data for ANI threads, too. Backlogs at AIV/UAA/PERM/etc generally don't get too bad because they're fairly easy to clear. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:05, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure I'd say the same about PERM. It's not uncommon for requests to be unanswered for days and I've seen some that go unanswered for weeks. I've pitched in there a bit. I've also been taking a break from it lately for reasons that are difficult to explain. My heart just isn't in it as much and I'm a volunteer. I don't exactly have much experience with this... but I'm assuming it's normal for admin motivation to ebb and flow? Sometimes I feel the same way about new page patrolling. I'm trying not to overdo it, pace myself, and chip in where I can. But I admit there is some level of inner guilt that makes me feel like I should be doing more when I hear about backlogs. Ideally everything would just get evenly dealt with across the board but humans are complicated. It's also a bit intimidating to consider all these areas you couldn't help out in before and you don't want to mess up by just waltzing in. It's easier to avoid areas like AE for that reason. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 00:10, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Unbundling is just a band-aid and won't solve the underlying problem; lack of administrators. If the situation were static, it might help some. But, things are getting worse over time. Over the last year, we've gone from 471 active admins to 434, a ~8% drop. --Hammersoft (talk) 01:06, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

I entirely agree; the issue is an insufficient proportion of experienced editor effort going toward administrative tasks, made somewhat worse (IMO) by some editors who are willing in principle being deterred by the atmosphere of RFA. Vanamonde93 (talk) 03:36, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Honestly, this is just average users per admin or average edits per page. The graph doesn't fully explain which admin is active on Wikipedia and how many active editors per active admin have been there. Of course, how about inactive editors per active admin? And what about bureaucrats? George Ho (talk) 18:02, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

The number of active editors (defined as at least one action in the last 30 days) is 117,283 (Special:Statistics). There are 436 active administrators (30 or more edits in the last 2 months) [2]. Thus, about 268 active editors per active administrator. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:11, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Hmm... I'm unsure still whether the graph tells the full story. Still doesn't fully explain which editors have been reported to ANI and then chided, blocked, or whatever. Still doesn't fully explain which editors have been taken to ArbCom, but such cases have become infrequent recently. Still doesn't fully explain which were taken to 3RR notice, which pages were requested for protection, and so forth. Well, it's not as if an active admin wanna monitor each of 268 active editors all day and pages that such editors have been editing, right? George Ho (talk) 19:53, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

If you want to define active editor more restrictively, we have 5,032 editors who have more than 100 edits this month. [3] Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 20:40, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

This graph is comparing stats between the largest of the Wikimedia projects by far and several much smaller projects with different design goals - it's a bit like comparing the energy use of an ocean supertanker with a Honda Civic. Do one comparing English Wikipedia to large foreign-language Wikipedias, that would be a more enlightening comparison. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 18:07, 19 June 2024 (UTC)