- Norma Stitz (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
Speedy delete by non-admin after no real discussion. My reasons were provided here. Hillbillyholiday (talk) 13:08, 23 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- The Guinness Book of World Records only published information about Norma once in 2000. We do not know if she is still the holder of this "record". And there are no other first-rate sources that I can find. If people are so keen about following procedure rather than common sense, how about WP:BLP1E, the event being: she was mentioned by Guinness once. --Hillbillyholiday (talk) 14:36, 23 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- She's also been covered in a lot of news sources, some of which are in the article. Probably not a BLP1E. But again, I'd suggest you just withdraw this DRV and open a new AfD. I don't think it will get deleted, but the arguments you are making here are much more reasonable and won't be eligible for a speedy keep. Hobit (talk) 18:13, 23 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn meets none of WP:SKCRIT, and the subjective determination as to whether something meets the GNG based one !vote is clearly not enough for a snowball keep. I have no intent on getting involved in the PORNBIO AfDs, and really don't care as to what happens to this article, but this was an inappropriate closure. The nomination could have been much better worded, but the essential claim is that outside GBWR there is not significant coverage: that is a subjective challenge to the article meeting the GNG that deserves to be sorted out in an AfD. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:29, 23 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- I get that and tend to not like speedy closes. But I do think it meets the first part of WP:SKCRIT: "fails to advance an argument for deletion or redirection". The article has sources and even his later comment was just about how horrible the HuffingtonPost is--it didn't address the other sources or even indicate that he'd seen them. And that comment wasn't there when the discussion was closed, so the closer couldn't have taken it into account. I've no objection to a relist here, but I don't think the closer got it wrong when it was closed. Hobit (talk) 16:44, 23 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes: it was a poorly done AfD nomination, but it was basically a cruder way of saying not notable, which is also a horrible nominating statement, but I've seen administrators simply have that when they send some stuff to AfD and we don't throw those out. Trouts all around here: the job of the closer is to see any potential policy arguments behind the !votes (in this case that being noticed for large breasts is trivial coverage not meeting WP:N), and the job of the nominator is to lay out a compelling case for deletion. Neither was done, but it wasn't at the speedy keep level. Meeting the GNG isn't a reason to speedy keep, and it isn't the place for DRV to sort out the GNG arguments. Anyway, thanks for the reply Hobit. Always appreciated :) TonyBallioni (talk) 16:53, 23 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- The closure relied on WP:SK, ground 1: "Nominator fails to advance a valid reason for deletion". Strictly speaking, you could argue that's correct, but we're a collaborative encyclopaedia and I think it's implicit in our procedures that when you're dealing with good faith users, you talk to them. It would have been entirely appropriate to ping the nominator and say, "Hey, you've failed to supply a valid reason for deletion: could you come back and do that please?" Just closing it without talking to him at all is within the rules as written. But it seems quite rude. I wouldn't have done that. Maybe in the circumstances, the best way forward would be to allow an immediate renomination on condition that the nominator gives clear reasons.—S Marshall T/C 17:22, 23 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- I think that's the best outcome. And yes, I agree the SK wasn't the most friendly thing to do and the best way forward would have been as you suggested. Given that nothing prevents a renomination after a procedural speedy keep, I'd suggest the nom withdraws this DRV and just starts a new one with a much better nomination statement. I very much doubt this will get deleted, but fair process is important to user retention. Hobit (talk) 18:08, 23 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Agreed that would be the least time-wasting outcome here: Hillbillyholiday, if you aren't following this, it would probably be best to withdraw and speedily renominate with a more fleshed out rationale citing policy and guidelines. You could note that the emerging consensus at this DRV was to allow for a speedy renomination. TonyBallioni (talk) 18:44, 23 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- So I get "trouted" for not following correct protocol for AfD but I should pre-emptively re-nominate without the process finishing here? It's all rather confusing to be honest. I think it best if someone else closes this review first, and then I start another deletion request later (would it be the 3rd AfD now?) --Hillbillyholiday (talk) 19:02, 23 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- It's simple: your deletion rationale was less than we typically expect from nominations, but people here also think that a speedy keep so quickly was probably not ideal. The suggestion is that you withdraw this DRV, and speedily renominate it with more fleshed out policy-based rationale for deletion: it saves the time of more people having to comment on the DRV and allows the article to be assessed at AfD. There is no prejudice about renominating it, and if someone brings it up, you can link to this discussion (or link to it in your nominating statement). TonyBallioni (talk) 19:17, 23 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- The close here is technically valid but I suspect the nominator intended to bring up a notability-based argument which just wasn't stated explicitly. Given that they have now come up with a more suitable rationale I suggest we reopen it. Hut 8.5 21:14, 23 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse without prejudice to renomination. No reason for deletion given, so a close isn't unreasonable. Might've been better to point that out and see if nom adds something, but regardless, there's nothing preventing a speedy renomination without going to DRV. It would be pretty pointless, though, as you're essentially asking for an IAR deletion. Spending 5 seconds on Google shows she easily meets GNG. The fact of her claim to fame, as always, isn't relevant as it's only an indication the sources exist -- and they very obviously do exist. There's the BLP avenue, but she's clearly a public person. We have countless articles on things that one might prefer not to be notable, but that's not the point. Even without a Guinness record, there's far more sourcing than needed to pass GNG (and, of course, what's currently cited isn't relevant to deletion). — Rhododendrites talk \\ 22:27, 23 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn and relist, inappropriate speedy keep as the nominator did want the page deleted. I expect the article will be kept, but that doesn't mean we should skip process. Stifle (talk) 13:19, 24 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn and relist. I wish there were a speedy delete criterion that would apply to this "article". A valid deletion reason was clearly implied, the general one of NOT ENCYCLOPESIC, and the more specific one of NOT TABLOID.— Preceding unsigned comment added by DGG (talk • contribs) 23:51, 24 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn. One of the few sources given in the article is the Daily Mail. Wikipedia no longer considers the Daily Mail as being a reliable source and it is a matter of public record that it has banned it as a reliable source.[3] Besides this source it has a couple tabloid newspaper sources and a Huffington Post source. This is not really the stuff of notability via a number of reliable sources. Wikipedia does have the article List of tallest people. Is Wikipedia planning on having an article entitled List of women with the biggest breasts? Of course, the answer is no to this question. It would not be encyclopedic. And as noted above, The Guinness Book of World Records only published information about Norma once in 2000. We do not know if she is still the holder of her record. A lot can happen in 17 years. The world's population has grown about 33% since 2000.[4] When the last history book closes, she will not be in it because she is not a notable person. A few tabloid articles a Huffington Post and being in the Guinness Book of World Records once is not the stuff of being a notable person. Knox490 (talk) 23:00, 25 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Article renominated @ Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Norma Stitz (3rd nomination) following Tony's advice and the general consensus here to relist. --Hillbillyholiday (talk) 11:39, 26 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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