Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yuggoth

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to The Whisperer in Darkness. Seddon ^talk 08:27, 7 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yuggoth

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A place from the Cthulhu Mythos. Content is mostly plot summary and list of media this term appears in. The coverage (references, external links, etc.) does not seem sufficient to justify this article passing Wikipedia:General notability guideline requirement nor the more detailed Wikipedia:Notability (fiction) supplementary essay. WP:BEFORE did not reveal any significant coverage on Gnews, Gbooks or Gscholar. Note that there is some coverage of the Lovecraft's work known as the Fungi From Yuggoth. Therefore I suggest merging and redirecting this there, unless someone can find some WP:SIGCOV of this fictional place? (Note to closing admin: since there is some referenced content here, although frankly limited to the tiny 'Links with Pluto' section; all other refs are to works of fiction), I volunteer to merge this once the discussion closes with the merge verdict). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:08, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:08, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Science fiction and fantasy-related deletion discussions. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:08, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:08, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've not yet reviewed sourcing sufficiently to decide if this should be kept or merged, but if the latter, then I think that Piotrus has the correct target, as the only alternative I've run across, Elements of the Cthulhu Mythos#Fictional locations, seems to be far too terse per entry to accept the sourced content from here. Jclemens (talk) 04:12, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep As with much of the Mythos, Yuggoth appears in the work of numerous other authors besides Lovecraft and so it's best to keep it separate. It's easy to find more sources such as The Lovecraftian Solar System and so policy WP:ATD applies, "If editing can improve the page, this should be done rather than deleting the page." Andrew🐉(talk) 11:02, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nice, this article does contain an in-depth discussion of this planet. The question is, is the Lovecraft Annual reliable? It seems like a one-man initiative (run by the editor, S. T. Joshi, who receives submission by snail mail, no evidence of editorial board, no evidence of peer review status, not indexed in any academic journal indice I can find, not in MIAR, not in SCOPUS, no ISSN even?). This may be a good reminder than not everything in JSTOR is automatically reliable. Btw, this 'journal' is published by Hippocampus Press, which is a new publisher, founded in 1999, that specializes in "the works of H. P. Lovecraft and his literary circle." So it's not an academic institution. And S. T. Joshi is not an academic. Sorry, I call 'not reliable' on this source which seems like a fanzine that just gets republished by JSTOR (feel free to take it WP:RSN for a second opinion). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 14:00, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Fungi from Yuggoth. Even if both sources above are deemed reliable, all discussion on the topic could easily fit into the parent article. TTN (talk) 15:58, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- @TTN: Both? Did I miss one? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:26, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to The Whisperer in Darkness which is where the H.P. Lovecraft Encyclopedia categorizes it under, rather than the original poem. It is the story that fleshes out both Yuggoth and the Mi-go. It does not seem independently notable outside the context of that story._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 12:20, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Whisperer per above, maybe some light merge. Artw (talk) 15:03, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per this inappropriate removal of sourcing during the Afd. From 22-27 August, the vast majority of the content in the article was removed by a non-AfD participant. While clearly some material was removable, the removal of sourcing (no matter how disputed) during an AfD is either against policy, or it should be. As such all three of the above redirect opinions should be revisited. Jclemens (talk) 23:57, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'll ping the users who voted redirect: @TTN, Zxcvbnm, and Artw:. That said I don't think a procedural keep is warranted here, the article hasn't been improved to address the issues I raised (GNG fail). It was made a bit worse, but not by much, removed content was very WP:FANCRUFTy. I do agree, however, that User:Susmuffin should not be gutting this article during AfD - we can afford to wait a few days and see how this discussion evolves. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:29, 28 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW I'm still seeing this as material that would be stronger de-crufted and merged into Whisperer. Artw (talk) 14:14, 28 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for stopping by to confirm your opinion was unchanged. Jclemens (talk) 06:42, 29 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say I lean slightly more towards keeping some of it, so that's a slight change. Artw (talk) 21:42, 29 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

After seeing that extra material, it seems mostly fancrufty in nature. My opinion on redirecting it has not changed. _{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 22:47, 29 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 07:05, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to The Whisperer in Darkness - Even with the restored content, there really is not much here outside of plot summaries, and no real reliable sources covering non-plot elements. Of the restored in-line citations, only one of them is not a piece of fiction, and that one does not even mention the fictional planet - its basically being used for a bit of WP:SYNTH. I agree with the above that The Whisperer in the Darkness is the better target for a redirect than the Fungi from Yuggoth article. Rorshacma (talk) 19:07, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. @Rorshacma, TTN, Zxcvbnm, and Artw: How about a disambig instead of a redirect? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:05, 31 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It wouldn't be fitting for a disambiguation - since the Yuggoth remain basically the same entities between each work, there should be some target. If there were two discrete species called Yuggoth between 2 different works, a disambiguation would be more apt. _{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 04:07, 31 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I tend to agree with this. Of course, having two reasonable potential targets is sometimes reason to keep a topic as a standalone article... Jclemens (talk) 08:26, 3 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Whisperer, where is the main place this plot element is addressed, per above. No need for disambig. czar 15:22, 6 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.