Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2011 January 5
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The result was overwhelming keep. --(ʞɿɐʇ) ɐuɐʞsǝp 01:11, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Ted Williams (announcer) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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Another case of "I heard it in the news so let's make an article!" 
Facepalm Standard WP:NOTNEWS and WP:BLP1E applies; a homeless voiceover artist's pitch goes YouTube viral, and in a tug0-at-the-heartstrings moment, gets a real job offer. This is why we have an essay on recentism, to caution against writing on spur-of-the-moment, news-of-the-day subjects. This person is only notable for a single event, an event for which there is no lasting significance or historical impact. If in a year's time he turns out to be the next Johnny Most for the Cavs, sure, this will be a nice intro to a well-deserved biography. For now it caught a few headlines' attention, then will fade into nothingness. That is the essence of NotNews and 1E. Tarc (talk) 18:40, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Endorse. Snowball clause in favor of keeping. While WP:BLP1E may be applicable (I as well thought to delete the article per this criterion), it is an editorial question whether Williams passes BLP1E. Personally, I now think that the reaction he is getting now may give him notability beyond this event. If this article is in fact deleted, I ask consent to permit future re-creation if more reviews can be actually cited.Tktru (talk) 18:53, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Um, your usage of "snowball" here is not even remotely applicable to this deletion discussion. No idea what point was trying to be made; if you're trying to short-circuit this discussion prematurely, then there are no grounds for that at all. As for BLP1E, no, it is not simply an editorial question, it is a policy that I have cited as a basis (one of two) of the argument to delete. if you disagree, fine, but this is the place to discuss it. Tarc (talk) 19:01, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Endorse. Snowball clause in favor of keeping. While WP:BLP1E may be applicable (I as well thought to delete the article per this criterion), it is an editorial question whether Williams passes BLP1E. Personally, I now think that the reaction he is getting now may give him notability beyond this event. If this article is in fact deleted, I ask consent to permit future re-creation if more reviews can be actually cited.Tktru (talk) 18:53, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Weak keep. It may have been premature for User:Deliveryreviled to start it very early this morning, but looking at the sources and the general media frenzy about this situation, Ted's story is only really just beginning. There is likely to be a fair bit more in the media over the coming week, and given all the job offers that are apparently coming in for him, it is probably likely that he will soon also be notable for more than just a single viral video. If nothing else comes to fruition within a week, maybe then look and re-assess his notability before taking action. And before you counteract me with WP:CRYSTAL, I'm going to just say WP:IAR. Give it some time. TheChrisD Rants•Edits 19:12, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep, this guy is receiving a ton of press. Definitely notable.--William S. Saturn (talk) 19:44, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep: Significant coverage meets notability. Yes BLP1E is an issue, but this AfD can close without prejudice to a future AfD or proposed merger of this content somewhere else if a separate article on Williams is not merited. No matter what, the original video and its effect is appropriate for inclusion on Wikipedia, as this is already a notable viral video.--Milowent • talkblp-r 20:06, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep per the TheChrisD. Less about BLP1E and more about the notability of his viral video and ensuing events. Plot Spoiler (talk) 20:15, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep per Millowent. Can always be revisited if the need arises.`--Ser Amantio di NicolaoChe dicono a Signa?Lo dicono a Signa. 20:32, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep Per William Saturn. Quite notable. -FASTILY (TALK) 20:39, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep per TheChrisD; it can always be reassessed later. EWikistTalk 21:12, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Delete, at least for now. I agree with the first poster in that this is just a case of sensationalist b.s. Just because you're on the news does not mean that you have done anything noteworthy. What about all the other PA announcers for every other sport and every other arena? Why don't they get their own pages? Because they truly do not do anything notable other than say names from a roster, even if it is in a smooth, hypnotic voice. This is what is wrong with society. We focus on every little trite piece of tripe, thinking that it is all important. Why don't we give that "double rainbow" or "they rapin' everybody up in here" guy a page? Draw the line somewhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wearend4 (talk • contribs) 21:30, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- With all due respect, there is an article on Antoine Dodson (to whom you so eloquently referred as "they rapin' everybody up here guy") - a rather comprehensive one, in fact. As to whether or not this particular article should be kept, I have no opinion.216.251.104.127 (talk) 22:00, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Ugh these are some of the worst keep rationales I've seen in recent times. Seriously, "the notability about the viral video and ensuing events" ? "A notable viral video" ? Says who or what source? That this is a person notable for only one event is factually undeniable. WP:BLP1E does have a threshold that can be overcome for the truly ironclad cases, as given in the example at that link for John Hinckley, Jr.. At the risk of pulling a reverse-WP:OTHERSTUFF, are we really arguing that some (and it is some, not a lot) press has elevated this guy to that level? Or even beyond some of the more notable deletions of late such as the "bigoted woman", the JetBlue flight attendant, or the large-breasted unemployed woman? Really? I realize this is only about one quarter of the first day of what will hopefully be a 7-day discussion, and hopefully more voices will join the fray in due time, but, just...ugh. Tarc (talk) 22:12, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not saying that it definitely complies with all general requirements, but I don't think there's any harm in letting it stay until after the short-term hype has died down and its notability can be clearly determined. EWikistTalk 22:23, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep, for now If this all turns out to be a flash in the pan and no one remembers the guy's name in a few weeks (as many viral phenomena are wont to do) then the result of a future AfD will be, if not obvious, then at least uncluttered by voices more enamored with Ted's story than with WP policies. GreyWyvern⚒ 22:35, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep He was offered a deal by the Cavaliers and most likely he will accept it. Also significant coverage by press per Saturn. Spongie555 (talk) 22:37, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep An encyclopedia should contain information about a topic people want to learn more about. I wanted to learn more about this man, I went to his wiki page and found out more. That's the point of an encyclopedia. I've never understood this communities desire to strip out interesting and useful content. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.4.17.53 (talk) 22:44, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep. Plenty of people are famous for one thing. DangApricot (talk)22:48, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep Ted Williams is cool! Crab Pappy (talk) 22:49, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- KEEP I agree entirely with the poster above me. Wikipedia is about the spread of information, and I found the information I was looking. Sure, I could've Googled it, but this was even more quick and efficient, and it always is so long as they've been sufficiently checked for accuracy(which shouldn't take too long for articles like these). Articles like these are great, people want to know about recent events and I believe the wiki principles stand for this. I'm sure there are more "traditional" encyclopedic articles on Wikipedia that get read less. Further more, I personally feel like this discussion underrating this story, whether or not it falls under the category of "recentism". 5,000,000 hits in a day is very remarkable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.141.68.18 (talk) 22:57, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep @Crab Pappy, that's a poor rationale for a keep. Provided he receives coverage beyond today, that there is no reason not to keep. I don't see a benefit for Wikipedia in deleting this article.Smallman12q (talk) 22:59, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep This man is significant enough to warrant having his own Wikipedia page; I have never seen such a story before either. He may even become even more famous in the forseeable future. --Rayboy8 (talk) 23:01, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep - clearly notable per significant mentions in a massive number of mainstream sources across the world. As an encyclopedia we cover what the sources cover, and deem noteworthy what the sources think is worth writing about. The sources are covering the person as: (1) a viral Internet video, and (2) a person, not just a news event. Although this is still an emerging story, the sources are covering at least three aspects of his life: the video, his personal history, and the outpouring of support and job offers from around the world. The whole BLP1E thing is not meant to prevent Wikipedia from covering people notable for only one thing (e.g. a person who holds a world record), or who only did one thing of note in their life (e.g. Lee Harvey Oswald). It is certainly not meant to avoid covering people who are famous as the actor in a single video or subject of a single documentary. Rather, it's supposed to avoid covering as a biographical subject someone who just happens to be caught up in the course of a newsworthy event, e.g. a victim of a crime. Susan Boyle is a similar case of someone who rose from obscurity to worldwide prominence, initially and primarily for a single vocal performance (and a number of sources have commented on that). Her article was subject to a similar misguided deletion attempt. Perhaps reviewing that would be helpful. - Wikidemon (talk) 23:05, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Weak Keep He has received widespread coverage because of an unusual ability. He is not the average person who got a burst of news coverage because one thing happened. He did not just do a one time stunt have something unusual happened to him one time, although looking like a vagrant while having a professional voice-over delivery might be considered a stunt. There are certainly many thousands of unheralded announcers with as good a voice who did not get the viral video treatment. CBS News compares him to Susan Boyle. This can always be revisited in a few months. Sometimes "1 event" people survive AFD and are generally accepted as notable, like Chesley Sullenberger, Balloon boy or Steve Bartman. I'm definitely not saying "otherstuff exists" as a Keep rationale, just that right after something enters the news cycle we are not always in a position to accurately predict how long the coverage will last. Edison (talk) 00:07, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep Per William S. Saturn (Cheers! Want Anything? Chatty?)babylarm 00:25, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- The above deletion debate is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the talk page of either this nomination or the nominated user). No further edits should be made to this page.
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The result was delete. -- Cirt (talk) 15:11, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
- Mahmoud Reza Maheri (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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vanity page, created by the subject and his socks WuhWuzDat 06:35, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
 | If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Wikipedia contributors. Wikipedia has policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes.
However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to assume good faith on the part of others and to sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end. Note: Comments may be tagged as follows: suspected single-purpose accounts:{{subst:spa|username}}; suspected canvassed users: {{subst:canvassed|username}}; accounts blocked for sockpuppetry: {{subst:csm|username}} or {{subst:csp|username}}. |
- Weak delete. Seems to fail WP:PROF (as well as WP:AUTO), as all I can find on Google are passing mentions of him. Erpert Who is this guy? | Wanna talk about it? 08:03, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Weak Keep Though it seems WP:AUTO, he is mentioned in number of places.Hillcountries (talk) 10:56, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Delete - Google Scholar for M R Maheri returns papers with at most 33 cites. No matter the field, that's not a significant impact.--137.122.49.102 (talk) 14:33, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
:*Keep - The comment by the above editor regarding the number of citations in Google Scholar appears to be incorrect. I don't know under what terms he/she has searched the subject. In Google Scholar (articles and patents), I have counted well over 300 citations on his journal papers Link label. On the topic of 'steel bracing of reinforced concrete frames' alone, there are at least 100 journal citations. Also, there are 149 journal citations for his works in Scirus Link label with 144 citations in Science direct journals. With his research work alone he meets WP:PROF.--Strongmind25 (talk) 01:11, 7 January 2011 (UTC)— Strongmind25 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Comment - you misinterpreted my statement. By "at most 33 cites", I meant "the most cited paper has 33 cites", not that the collective papers total 33 cites. Now, if M R Maheri had a single paper with 300 cites it would be a different story.--137.122.49.102 (talk) 14:06, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
:::*Comment - Many of M R Maheri's journal papers are published by Elsevier (Science Direct)[28]. According to Google Scholar, Elsevier journals before mid-2007 were not included in Google Scholar. This search engine would therefore return erroneous citations and h-index for his work.--Strongmind25 (talk) 21:26, 7 January 2011 (UTC)— Strongmind25 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- keep (Though with some clearing up)- This article comes under the jurisdiction of WP:AUTO which, although strongly discourages autobiographies, does not ban them. The main concern about this is obviously NPOV and verifiability. From where i stand the article seems to be pretty neutral, stating only facts and having no wild claims of greatness. on the verifiability issue, I suggest that all that can't be verified be removed. Obviously we must take note that there probably isn't that much information out there about Iranian academics, or in fact academics from any developing nation.
On the other hand, there's the WP:PROF aspect. Whilst it is hard to judge whether prof maheri meets any of the other criteria, Criterion 9 says that (if any one of these criteria are met the article is valid) The person is in a field of literature (e.g writer or poet) or the fine arts. I can verify that prof. maheri is a published author, having written on the Early Civilizations of Kerman, which is by far out of his main area of expertise. I have personally used this book in the editing of the page Jiroft culture. Whilst the editor above used google scholar to gauge this person's impact on the field, wP:PROF itself warns against this, stating that "A caution about Google Scholar: Google Scholar works well for fields where all (or nearly all) respected venues have an online presence. Most papers written by a computer scientist will show up, but for less technologically up-to-date fields, it is dicey." If its dicey for some academics in certain fields in the West, imagine how dicey must it be when the article subject is working in Iran. After all, you name me someone who got a professorship with only 33 papers. Clearly by looking at the few sources provided it seems not unreasonable to suggest that this person may be important in his field. Apparently prof. Maheri has worked for such entities as the Ministry for housing and energy of iran and Islamic Azad University. This is why this article should be kept, though this certainly does not mean that the page does not have problems.Karafs (talk) 20:34, 6 January 2011 (UTC)— Karafs (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. }
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Iran-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 19:21, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 19:21, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Comment. A search for M R Maheri on GS gives h index of 10. With only 300 cites (see above) this is rather below usual values acceptable for WP:Prof#C1. Do other things help? Comments from more non-spas would help. Xxanthippe (talk) 22:17, 6 January 2011 (UTC).
:*Comment - Many of M R Maheri's journal papers are published by Elsevier (Science Direct)[29]. According to Google Scholar, Elsevier journals before mid-2007 were not included in Google Scholar. This search engine would therefore return erroneous citations and h-index for his work.--Strongmind25 (talk) 21:26, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- Can you provide data from Web of Science or Scopus? Xxanthippe (talk).
::::Sorry, I don't have access to these sites.--Strongmind25 (talk) 20:34, 8 January 2011 (UTC)— Strongmind25 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Results. WoS shows 28 papers, 169 total citations, h-index 8 on the query "Author=(Maheri MR) Timespan=All Years. Databases=SCI-EXPANDED, SSCI, A&HCI". Respectfully, Agricola44 (talk) 16:31, 10 January 2011 (UTC).
- Delete. fails WP:PROF.Farhikht (talk) 17:55, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
*Keep – I believe, considering the following points collectively, he meets WP:PROF.
- It seems that the Google Scholar may not be a reliable source for judging M R Maheri’s published work. However, he must be quite active to be cited in who's who in Computational Science and Engineering.
- He is a co-founder and core member (I believe one of five people) of Iran Center of Excellence for Computational Mechanics; a prestigious research center in Iran.
- He is associate editor of a number of International journals including the ISI-listed Iranian Journal of Science and Technology.
- His contribution to and significance in the field of Earthquake Engineering in Iran is evidently very high (membership or head of a number of National committees on codes of practice and standards). I also know that he was the only Iranian keynote speaker in the 5th (latest) International Conf. on Earthquake Engineering and Seismology and one of only two Iranian keynote speakers in the 3rd (latest) Int. Conf. on Concrete and Development, both highly prestigious international conferences held in Iran (Ref. can be provided). It should be noted that Iran has suffered extensively from earthquakes in recent times, therefore her scholars are very active in this field. As an example; paper contribution of the Iranians to the 14th (latest) World Conference on Earthquake Engineering was second only to the host nation, China (Ref. can be provided).
His parallel work in a completely different field to his field of expertise (Archaeology and history), cited in WP is also very interesting.-Kingfisher48 (talk) 20:19, 9 January 2011 (UTC) — Kingfisher48 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Delete. Despite the sock party here, no convincing evidence of passing WP:PROF has been presented. Who's who is a vanity press and doesn't count for anything; huge numbers of professors found centers, and often a center is just a fancy name for the professor's research group; associate editor is not good enough, and even editor-in-chief is only a sign of notability when the journal itself is significant; objective measures of his impact to earthquake engineering, such as citation counts, do not show impact; unsubstantiated opinions about his work being "very interesting" also count for nothing. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:17, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
:*Comment I did ask the respected editors to look at the above 5 points collectively. However, you have decided to pick at and attack each point individually and unfairly; the Iranian Center of Excelence for Computational Mechanics is reduced to professor's research group and his contribution to Earthquake Engineering is belittled by ignoring other evidence and citing unreliable (at least in his case as is said above) Google Scholar citation counts. Also, I may be a newcomer; but you as an old user are expected to be familiar with the WP policy of Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers, adhere to objective arguments and refrain from using such terms as 'sock party'.--Kingfisher48 (talk) 10:20, 10 January 2011 (UTC)— Kingfisher48 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- I AM NOT A PUPPET! As I have explained here I am not the same editor as user:mrmaheri. And even if I was a sockpuppet, it wouldn't matter, as you yourself have admitted I have provided "convincing evidence".Karafs (talk) 22:38, 9 January 2011 (UTC)— Karafs (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- You are, though, an WP:SPA[30]. Xxanthippe (talk) 22:55, 9 January 2011 (UTC).
- Delete Autobios should be held to the highest notability and verifiability standards. If the subject himself, in creating the page, can't be bothered to add verifiable notability support, why should the rest of us waste our time beating the bushes for it? EEng (talk) 16:15, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
- Weak Delete. It is true that this case is somewhat below our usual bar if judged by the stats alone (e.g. h-index 8, as demonstrated above). However, in looking at the publication list more closely, it seems none of his papers have large author lists and he is almost always 1st author. Although it still might represent the usual academic arrangement of the student doing most of the work, it could also mean that it really mostly represents his work. My mind could be changed if more information comes to light. Thanks, Agricola44 (talk) 16:48, 10 January 2011 (UTC).
- Delete after consideration of arguments above and WoS stats of Agricola44. Xxanthippe (talk) 06:06, 12 January 2011 (UTC).
- Comment comments and !votes by blocked sockpuppets struck out. WuhWuzDat 06:49, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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The result was Keep. As with any debate with this passioned and extensive of a response, it deserves some explaining as to why this was closed this way. After reading all of the arguements, and looking at the weight of the concerns, especially over the very real concerns by the "delete" side of the arguement over BLP issues, it seems that consensus seems to be that those concerns, and any others can all be met by normal editing and dilligence on the part of good editors who patrol the article and keep it up to snuff. Otherwise, there seems to be consensus that this list is appropriate as conceived, so long as the criteria for inclusion in the list are very narrowly managed. Jayron32 15:30, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
- List of HIV-positive people (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD)
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There are multiple issues with a list of HIV positive folk. Firstly, with the over 40 million people in the world whom have this disease, I fail to see the encyclopaedic value of listing even a small subset of those people. Secondly, I don't think this is the right thing for a responsible project to do... listing folks HIV status, even if it is in a source. It is otherwise, a deeply private matter. Thirdly, not all of these people are public figures. I do want to pay special call to the good, hard work the volunteers have done to the page, otherwise. Notwithstanding the hard work, the issues I mentioned above deserve discussion. Thank you for your time and attention to this request. Warmly, NonvocalScream (talk) 03:15, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
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However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to assume good faith on the part of others and to sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end. Note: Comments may be tagged as follows: suspected single-purpose accounts:{{subst:spa|username}}; suspected canvassed users: {{subst:canvassed|username}}; accounts blocked for sockpuppetry: {{subst:csm|username}} or {{subst:csp|username}}. |
- Delete. Though there may have been a case at one time for raising awareness over the HIV issue, the list as it now stands serves little purpose beyond satisfying curiosity, and keeping the Wikipedia data-miners busy. This is none of our business. The fact that a reliable (?) source exists for something, and a notable (?) person has it, is no justification whatsoever for compiling a list. These people are not (with perhaps a very few exceptions) notable for being HIV positive. Their inclusion on this list does nothing but place undue weight on what should be seen as a private medical issue. This is unencyclopedic, intrusive, and serves no useful purpose. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:56, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Delete. I'm a proud inclusionist, but I see absolutely no encyclopedic value in this list. The information, if supported by iron-clad refs (preferably public announcements by the subject of their HIV status) can certainly be included in individual articles, but gathering these names together in one list smacks of McCarthyism. I'm aware that there's another argument to be made, that the AIDS pandemic requires that such information not be kept under wraps, so that people are aware of the scope of the problem, but this list does not really help much in that respect, since it's about individuals and not epidemiology. Also, such a contention is a POV, and therefore contravenes our NPOV stance.
I seem much more potential for damage and abuse in this list than I see informational value. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:01, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- To the extent perceptions of the list's social merit matter (i.e., very little), the much stronger argument is for keeping, given the instrumental role that celebrity HIV-cases have had in normalizing the disease and illustrating its scope and demographic reach. I've now seen the "McCarthyism" claim in numerous AFDs regarding biographical lists, and it's no more compelling of a deletion argument here. I don't see it amounting to much more than "I don't like listing people," and if it's a matter of "I don't like listing potentially negative things about people" then it both 1) includes the POV that HIV-positive status is something to be ashamed of, and 2) only accomplishes a sweeping under the rug of subjects some find unpleasant. At any rate, nothing in your comment presents a valid reason for deletion. postdlf (talk) 19:05, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- DELETE per AndyTheGrump and Beyond My Ken above, I couldn't have put it more succinctly. Heiro 04:16, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- KEEP It is a featured list article which means it went through painstaking careful consideration. AFD discussions are way too quick, just a few days. Passed the very careful and slow process of Featured List. That would be like deleting a Featured Article. Featured Article cannot be deleted. First, they must be de-certified as Featured before they can even be considered for deletion.. Ryan White Jr. (talk) 04:43, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- "Featured Article cannot be deleted. First, they must be de-certified as Featured...". Is this policy? If so, where? Wikipedia's priority should be article content, not bureaucratic formalism, as I see it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:00, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- I've never heard of this, and even if it was a rule, it doesn't seem like we would be required to pay attention to it if the consensus was to delete, per WP:IAR. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 05:04, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- I've seen featured article reviews and it is very extensive. So this probably had very extensive review and was granted the featured status. The level of consensus to reach featured status is very, very high, much higher than AFD's. Therefore, it can be said that there is consensus to keep. I realize that HIV is very controversial so this AFD will be so, too. Also, I confess having come here because there is an advertisement of sorts on ANI. Hakkapeliitta (talk) 01:38, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- I've never heard of this, and even if it was a rule, it doesn't seem like we would be required to pay attention to it if the consensus was to delete, per WP:IAR. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 05:04, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- "Featured Article cannot be deleted. First, they must be de-certified as Featured...". Is this policy? If so, where? Wikipedia's priority should be article content, not bureaucratic formalism, as I see it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:00, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep -- I understand completely everyone's good intentions, and desire to protect the privacy of the individuals listed here, and I think this is all admirable; but I would vote keep in this situation.
- Firstly, with the over 40 million people in the world whom have this disease, I fail to see the encyclopaedic value of listing even a small subset of those people. -- I would guess that this has more "encyclopedic value" than List of Pokemon characters. Maybe someone is writing a book on AIDS survivors, and is looking for inspirational people to include. Maybe someone just got AIDs and wants to see other notable people who have had AIDS and how they dealt with it. Maybe someone is trying to see if anyone has successfully played professional rugby with AIDS. I don't know why people look up Pokemon characters, and I don't know why people would want to find notable people with AIDS. But I'm sure they are out there, and I'm sure this list would have every bit as much encyclopedia value as the Pokemon list would to anime fans.
- It is otherwise, a deeply private matter. -- I'm not sure how one can say that something is a "deeply private matter" after it's been published in the New York Times or an equally widely distributed publication. I understand that it would be wrong to publicly "out" someone who wished to keep it private; but if we are doing what we are supposed to, and only discussing things that have been published in mainstream reliable sources, then they have probably already been viewed in those sources by far more people than they ever will be in this list. I don't see this as a violation of people's privacy.
- Again, I admire everyone's sensitivity, but I don't think that deleting this article is protecting anyone, and took issue with these two particular arguments. Best wishes. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 04:44, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
Jrtayloriv, I think you are confusing things we can do with things we should do. I'll not bother with trivialities like Pokomomon characters, but instead ask whether you actually think it is Wikipedia's responsibility to compile a complete database about any and every 'fact' we can source about 'notable' persons, regardless of what it has to do with their notability? Is there any part of none of our business that you don't understand? AndyTheGrump (talk)
- Is there any reason you are acting like a dick to me for expressing a different opinion than you? I'm not confusing what we "can"/"should" do. I'm saying I think we should have an article on this, for the reasons I cited above, and that we can. I don't think it's anyone's "responsibility" to compile a list or to do anything else on Wikipedia for that matter, but I think that some people chose to, and I think that many readers will find it useful. I also think that nobody will be hurt by it because the information has already, in many cases, been published in newspapers with millions of readers, and is by no means "private" information. Anyhow, I don't have a problem with you disagreeing with me, but it would be great if you could drop the condescending tone (i.e. "Is there any part of none of our business that you don't understand?") -- I haven't done anything to you to deserve it. Maybe try to respond to the points I made, if you don't agree with them for some reason. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 05:31, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- P.S. ... and see my response below regarding my feelings on notability. I agree with you and DustFormsWords that the only people on this list should be those that are notable for being HIV positive, not just people that are notable AND verifiably HIV-positive. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 05:34, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Firstly, apologies for the rather strongly-worded comment earlier, Jrtayloriv. It was a reaction to your comparison with an article on Pokemon characters that I was reacting to, I think, but I should clearly have replied in a calmer manner. In response to the point about listing people notable because they are HIV positive, I think that this goes to the heart of the issue. I am now looking into this, and will reply later when I have investigated further. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:46, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Apologies accepted, and thanks for explaining. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 16:35, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Firstly, apologies for the rather strongly-worded comment earlier, Jrtayloriv. It was a reaction to your comparison with an article on Pokemon characters that I was reacting to, I think, but I should clearly have replied in a calmer manner. In response to the point about listing people notable because they are HIV positive, I think that this goes to the heart of the issue. I am now looking into this, and will reply later when I have investigated further. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:46, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- P.S. ... and see my response below regarding my feelings on notability. I agree with you and DustFormsWords that the only people on this list should be those that are notable for being HIV positive, not just people that are notable AND verifiably HIV-positive. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 05:34, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- On the contrary, Andy, it is certainly our business to incorporate notable information into this encyclopedia. It is certainly none of our business to judge what notable information is right to include and what notable information is wrong to include. That would be a violation of WP:NPOV. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡbomb 06:04, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep - on the basis that names should only be appearing on the list where they are notable for being HIV positive (eg Ryan White and Rebekka Armstrong), per WP:LSC, rather than merely being notable and being verifiably HIV positive. There would be nothing wrong with a list formed on this basis. I realise that WP:NLIST takes a different approach, allowing for the creation of lists of notable people sharing a verifiable but unnotable characteristic, but I believe that WP:LSC is the practice more recently followed by the community at AfD (see the recent debates on race/profession interesections). In the event that I am wrong about this approach to list selection criteria, and that a list of notable people sharing an unnotable characteristic is theoretically a valid list, I would change my vote to delete based upon the list having no encyclopaedic value. - DustFormsWords (talk) 05:10, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- That seems reasonable to me. I agree that the list should be people who are notable for being HIV-positive (i.e. Magic Johnson, etc.). -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 05:31, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Now, that seems extremely unreasonable to me, and your example demonstrates why. Magic Johnson is not notable for being HIV-positive, he is a notable person (a basketball superstar) who is HIV-positive. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡbomb 05:49, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- I take the above back, as I think I misread your comment. Magic Johnson was initially notable for being a basketball superstar but is now a notably HIV-positive person as well. Understood. Oops :). ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡbomb 05:51, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- No worries. Many of the people who are notable for being HIV-positive will have been notable for something else beforehand. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 05:56, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- I take the above back, as I think I misread your comment. Magic Johnson was initially notable for being a basketball superstar but is now a notably HIV-positive person as well. Understood. Oops :). ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡbomb 05:51, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Now, that seems extremely unreasonable to me, and your example demonstrates why. Magic Johnson is not notable for being HIV-positive, he is a notable person (a basketball superstar) who is HIV-positive. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡbomb 05:49, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep I honestly don't care for or about the "let's do the right thing and let people have their privacy" arguments advanced above. The "McCarthyism" complaint is particularly rich -- unlike McCarthyism, these people are verifiably beyond-any-doubt HIV sufferers. This isn't persecution, it's fact. Indeed, deleting this list on that basis is a plain violation of WP:NPOV -- such a deletion would be tantamount to saying "our point of view is that this list represents McCarthyistic persecution, and is not merely a list of notable persons infected with a notable disease." That's practically a political position.
We also have existing precedent in similar lists: List of autistic people, for example.
It is a cop-out to say that because a great many people are HIV-positive, HIV-positive status among notable persons is not in and of itself notable. It stretches the limits of common sense to advance that position, in my opinion. HIV is, for better or worse, a disease with powerful and occasionally stigmatizing connotations. Regardless, I advance these notions in concert with the more strictly policy-based arguments DFW notes above. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡbomb 05:44, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep Clear inclusion criteria for a notworthy topic. Each entry is ref'd, so no BLP issues and it's a featured list! Lugnuts (talk) 07:51, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Strong keep. HIV scares the hell out of me, but a list wouldn't have acquired featured status if it weren't notable. It seems like all the delete !votes, though well-intentioned, are based on WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Erpert Who is this guy? | Wanna talk about it? 08:11, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep Agree with Jrtayloriv's first points, though not about the inclusion criteria being restricted to people notable for having HIV (that would be only a handful of names at most, and tends to be the criteria uses for such lists within a disease article itself -- see WP:MEDMOS). Also, per Erpert, most of the comments here are just WP:IDONTLIKEIT. The list has a clearly defined scope, is well referenced, and the information is widely available already. We've always had such lists and guidelines such as WP:NLIST and WP:MEDMOS cover them. There are many lists of people with medical conditions and a number of them are featured. It may surprise you that disease-related charities and support organisations actually maintain similar lists and post them on their websites too. Now why would they do that? Perhaps people with the condition want to be able to look at someone they admire and draw inspiration from them. Who knows? Many books and newspaper articles about medical conditions start by name dropping some famous people with the condition, so this list has scholarly and journalistic value. So far, I can't see any policy-based arguments presented. Colin°Talk 08:41, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Medicine-related deletion discussions. Erpert Who is this guy? | Wanna talk about it? 08:14, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep - Basically I worked on this list because it originally was an unsourced mess. I thought about putting it up for deletion at that time, but at that time it would have been a snowball keep. So instead I (and other editors) cleaned it up and made it all fully referenced. I saw many websites who had their own (crappy) list or had the, at that time unsourced, Wikipedia list. So I am glad that there is at least one good list somwhere without unsourced gossip and other crap. Garion96 (talk) 10:51, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep. This list has an educational and historic value which I believe is encyclopedic--it illustrates the widespread nature of the disease, and (in some of the cases given) the fact that it is caught by children and others who engaged in no risky behavior. WP:BLP standards, as I have been finding out the hard way on the related noticeboard, are usually interpreted to protect privacy of the "barely notable" against disclosure of disturbing information. There may be a small number of living people who should be deleted who did not themselves disclose their condition, are not AIDS activists or involved in a significant litigation, etc. Otherwise, there is no need to protect the dead (many of whom died in the 80's and 90's) against the information, nor avoid disclosure of people who have become prominent (or secondarily prominent) in connection with the disease. Jonathanwallace (talk) 13:37, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Delete I'll duplicate my comment on ANI: To be honest I don't even think such an article should exist, is there something notable about having HIV? If it has lead to notable events (like "the namesake for U.S. federal legislation that addresses the unmet health needs of persons living with HIV/AIDS") then it can be covered in the parent article, do we collate a list of people who suffer from cancer or swine flu? I can't find anything encyclopedia about it, nor anything that makes you notable for being a sufferer of the disease. You can be notable and have your notability enhanced by suffering from it but that is surely a topic to be covered in the parent article, as it would not make much notability as a fact by itself. S.G.(GH) ping! 14:24, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Delete This is a big reason I detest List "articles." It provides no context, nor any indication of why each person on the list should be included. Simply because the person is notable, it does not follow that their HIV status is itself notable. The list is not encyclopedic in and of itself, and any utility as a navigation page is better served by a category. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 14:31, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Actually categories are an extremely poor choice for this sort of information and cannot be used where the information is at all contentious. To verify the information in a category, one has to look among all the sources listed on each article to see if they support the categorisation. This list is fairly bare wrt facts about each person, when/how they caught or died of HIV (see other such FLs to compare) but that is no reason to delete. Colin°Talk 15:02, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Completely disagree. The entire point of my deletion request is that this list 'is "fairly bare wrt facts about each person..." It doesn't change that if someone wants to verify the accuracy of the list, they'll have to go into each article and then each reference to verify it is correct. Making it a list doesn't solve what you pointed out... in fact, it makes it more of a problem, as lists are not tagged in the related article, which means folks familiar with the subject won't be alerted the way a category addition would attract attention. Lists like this are far more vulnerable to BLP violations, and provide no real context for the reader. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 15:10, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Speaking from experience. Categories are a BLP nightmare. It's obvious, one list is quite easy to manage to keep the junk out. A category on the other hand can be placed on lots of articles and not all these articles are being watched. Garion96 (talk) 15:27, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- No, it's not "obvious." The only people watching the list are the ones adding content to it. That doesn't make it any more safe than the categories, really. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 15:54, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- There are many editors who have articles on their watchlist just to stop vandalism and unsourced crap. One article/list or hundreds articles in categories. Which is easier to check? Garion96 (talk) 17:16, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- HandThatFeeds, your comments indicate ignorance and I suggest you listen to folk who've actually watchlisted these for years. Categories are, let's face it, generally completely unsourced and suitable for only the most benign of information - we have guidelines that say as much. Until WP figures out how to attach an inline footnote to a category, the system is unsuitable for anything BLP related. I'd certainly vote for an XfD of such a category of people. Colin°Talk 21:26, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- This is getting far off-topic. The easiest to check is whatever the editor chooses to watch. Claiming that the list is better because it's a single page is a fallacy. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 18:50, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Claiming categories are better because it's easier to check 1000's of articles instead of one list is fallacy. If this list is deleted (or even if it's kept), I really hope Category:Deaths from AIDS-related illness and it's subcategories will go because that's more a potential BLP nightmare than this list. Garion96 (talk) 21:14, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- (sigh) This is my last comment on this side-matter: you have my argument completely backwards. Categories are added to individual articles, and people watch those individual articles. They are more likely to notice an odd category being added to that article. Moreover, they may be completely unaware that this list exists, or that the subject of an article has been added to it. That makes lists more dangerous BLP violations than categories. Anyone may create a list and add various people to it, while folks following the people have no idea such a list has been made, but would notice a cat being added to the person's article. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 23:40, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Claiming categories are better because it's easier to check 1000's of articles instead of one list is fallacy. If this list is deleted (or even if it's kept), I really hope Category:Deaths from AIDS-related illness and it's subcategories will go because that's more a potential BLP nightmare than this list. Garion96 (talk) 21:14, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- There are many editors who have articles on their watchlist just to stop vandalism and unsourced crap. One article/list or hundreds articles in categories. Which is easier to check? Garion96 (talk) 17:16, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- No, it's not "obvious." The only people watching the list are the ones adding content to it. That doesn't make it any more safe than the categories, really. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 15:54, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Speaking from experience. Categories are a BLP nightmare. It's obvious, one list is quite easy to manage to keep the junk out. A category on the other hand can be placed on lots of articles and not all these articles are being watched. Garion96 (talk) 15:27, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Completely disagree. The entire point of my deletion request is that this list 'is "fairly bare wrt facts about each person..." It doesn't change that if someone wants to verify the accuracy of the list, they'll have to go into each article and then each reference to verify it is correct. Making it a list doesn't solve what you pointed out... in fact, it makes it more of a problem, as lists are not tagged in the related article, which means folks familiar with the subject won't be alerted the way a category addition would attract attention. Lists like this are far more vulnerable to BLP violations, and provide no real context for the reader. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 15:10, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Addendum - Further discussion has really brought the problems with this list to light. Biggest one IMO, aside from potential BLP violations, is undue weight. As I stated before, many of the additions to this list are not notable for having HIV. The list makes their HIV status the first thing people see: "Oh, a list of folks with HIV? Oh, person X has it?" The list presents their infection status with undue weight. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 15:24, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
- We don't delete articles or lists because of "potential BLP violations". And have you read WP:UNDUE? The subject here is "HIV-positive people". Other than, perhaps a retrospective diagnosis, their HIV status is not a matter of opinion that might be held by a minority. It is just a fact. And the weight given to the HIV-status of a person in a list of HIV-positive people would, I reckon, be aproximately 100%. Colin°Talk 16:39, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, their HIV status is a fact (assuming it's properly sourced, which is the BLP concern), but it is not the reason most of them are notable, nor is the fact they are HIV positive notable in and of itself. And you're sorely misreading WEIGHT. Do we have List of black people?
List of Catholics? List of people with leukemia? Then why is List of HIV-positive people different? I submit it's merely the shock value of HIV status, which is placing undue weight on their status. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 20:47, 11 January 2011 (UTC)- (edit) Wow, List of Catholics is a disambiguation page for multiple lists. I can only
Facepalm , and I'll have to go through that mess later. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 20:55, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
- (edit) Wow, List of Catholics is a disambiguation page for multiple lists. I can only
- Yes, their HIV status is a fact (assuming it's properly sourced, which is the BLP concern), but it is not the reason most of them are notable, nor is the fact they are HIV positive notable in and of itself. And you're sorely misreading WEIGHT. Do we have List of black people?
- Every list, just like every category, only lists its subjects by one fact or aspect. That's not an "undue weight" concern at all; that's exactly what lists and categories do. The claim that lists should only list what people are notable for has been addressed already. If you think that all such lists should be deleted, such as all people by place of origin lists (no one is notable for being born somewhere), all people by educational institution lists (no one is notable for going to a particular school), all people by year of birth or death lists, well, then you're consistent, but you're way outside of any consensus-supported interpretation of notability guidelines. postdlf (talk) 16:53, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
- Lists should only be for people who are notable for that aspect, especially if it has the potential for being a major BLP problem. Yes, I am consistent in that regard: categories should be used for minor, non-notable aspects. Lists should only be used for major, notable aspects. That may be something I have to push for a broader consensus on, but I believe it's the correct thing to do per WP:UNDUE and WP:BLP. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 20:58, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
- We don't delete articles or lists because of "potential BLP violations". And have you read WP:UNDUE? The subject here is "HIV-positive people". Other than, perhaps a retrospective diagnosis, their HIV status is not a matter of opinion that might be held by a minority. It is just a fact. And the weight given to the HIV-status of a person in a list of HIV-positive people would, I reckon, be aproximately 100%. Colin°Talk 16:39, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
- Actually categories are an extremely poor choice for this sort of information and cannot be used where the information is at all contentious. To verify the information in a category, one has to look among all the sources listed on each article to see if they support the categorisation. This list is fairly bare wrt facts about each person, when/how they caught or died of HIV (see other such FLs to compare) but that is no reason to delete. Colin°Talk 15:02, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Back in the late 1970s early 1980s there were three books of lists published, mostly people kept them in the loo for light relief. Anyway I still have a copy it includes items like
- 10 Beans and their flatulence level.
- 8 People that have taken Heroin: Aleister Crowley, Alma Rubens, William Burroughs, Billie Holiday, Charlie Parker, Lenny Bruce, Stan Getz, Janis Joplin. You'll note that in each of these cases the drug addiction formed a major part of their biography.
- 7 Famous men who were full-time virgins: Isaac Newton, Immanuel Kant Louis XVI John Ruskin George Bernard Shaw Havelock Ellis Adolf Hitler. No bit part soap actors here.
- 6 Of the Most expensive Women in History Lamia of Athens Lais of Hyccara Ninon de l'Enclos Laura Bell Virginia Oldoini Kitty Fisher.
- I could go on, in all the lists involving people the thing listed is notable in itself, or played a large and part in the persons notability. In no cases is the list simply a dump. John lilburne (talk) 21:55, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
- And that has relevance to this debate... how? — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 22:44, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
- Back in the late 1970s early 1980s there were three books of lists published, mostly people kept them in the loo for light relief. Anyway I still have a copy it includes items like
- Delete Not a relevant biographical stand-alone information. It maybe relevant to explain, for example, the early death of a person, and in this case, the information should be given in the article about the person. The only exception would be people who have made their HIV infection a central aspect of their public image, so a list of HIV-posivive HIV/AIDS activists may be possible with regard to the BLP guideline. Cs32en Talk to me 19:10, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Fully protect if kept. This list risks harm to living people if not fully-protected from unsourced additions, so I would think BLP considerations require full protection as an anti-vandal measure. (If the outcome is "no consensus" then it should still be fully protected.)—S Marshall T/C 20:03, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Where does policy require full protection for a list that is rarely vandalised. Even George W. Bush is only semi'd. Colin°Talk 21:27, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Delete this page is a BLP nightmare, and even if rigorously patrolled it cannot provide adequate context (per Hand that Feeds). S. Marshall's concern, just above, is enough for me to say that cost far outweighs benefit here. Delete, delete, delete.Griswaldo (talk) 20:32, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Comment This list gained attention at ANI due to a BLP issue which ultimately led to this AfD. I have watched this list for many years and unsourced details are generally swiftly dealt with and there is no more of a BLP problem here than any other biographical article of a notable person. Indeed, this list is a beacon of responsible sourcing and compliance with BLP. This AfD and many of the comments here are a knee-jerk reaction to that ANI report and are not founded in policy. We do not delete lists or articles because some random IP vandalised it. Colin°Talk 21:26, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Not in my case. I don't frequent AN/I, and "fully protect" is my habitual position on lists of people where there's a BLP risk. (I said the same thing here, for example.)—S Marshall T/C 21:33, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- This was on AN/I? I got to the article from another article. NonvocalScream (talk) 21:45, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Not in mine either. I came across this posting Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#List_of_HIV-positive_people_at_AfD which was neutrally worded and then explored the issue at the AfD.Griswaldo (talk) 21:46, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- The ANI is here (for now). There's no policy being cited as a reason for deletion. S Marshall, you may have "fully protect" as a "habitual position" but nobody it seems is listening. The List of Scientologists isn't even semi'd. Colin°Talk 22:20, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Please see WP:INDISCRIMINATE. I'm unsure why so many people think that if it is information it ought to always be on Wikipedia unless there is some clear cut policy that says otherwise. WP:BLP is enough for me. This information of little value in an encyclopedia but has the potential to cause a lot of harm. You can say that this isn't a policy rationale, but I'm pretty sure others will agree that it is. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 22:30, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- I'm quite aware of WP:INDISCRIMINATE and it says nothing about such lists. Perhaps you feel it is worthless data, but others disagree and as I've noted above, the information is useful to some. Colin°Talk 23:37, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Colin, the fact that closers don't always listen to me doesn't make me wrong. :) Griswaldo, BLP is a reason to prevent harm to living people by fully protecting the article. You've got from "BLP" to "delete", but I don't see that. It relies on your idea that the information is of "little value in an encyclopaedia", which is (a) an opinion statement which you've not yet supported by reasoning or evidence, and (b) appears to fly in the face of the majority opinion, as evidenced by clear consensus at the three discussions here, here and here.
For the avoidance of doubt I do not believe that featured content is protected from the AfD process. But I do believe that when dealing with featured content which has undergone significant scrutiny over an extensive period of time, the bar for a "delete" is set somewhat higher than usual.—S Marshall T/C 23:19, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- delete per The Hand That Feeds You. Recording someone's self-admission of HIV in the context of an article where it can be explained is one thing, putting people on a list, without context, because they've got a disease is quite frankly barbaric. I'm not arguing for censoring verifiable information because it's unpleasant, I'm simply saying this is a poor way to organise that material. Keep in on articles and off lists.--Scott Mac 22:55, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- "is quite frankly barbaric" is as close to a textbook WP:IDONTLIKEIT vote as they come. If you think the list needs more "context" then that's a suggestion for content improvement, not deletion. Colin°Talk 23:37, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Whatever. The "IDONTLIKEIT" is response is tired - it just avoids you answering the point. Lists don't allow for context, you are either off or on. You either get labelled and chucked in, or you don't. That's crude, useless and offensive - and no, I don't like it, and nor should you. There are better ways to organise this information and so we should use them. Not keep an utterly useless list.--Scott Mac 23:47, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Since when do lists not allow for context? Are you sure you're not thinking of categories? Lists can be formatted in any way suitable to the best encyclopaedic presentation of the information. This one has a whole field titled "Comments" specifically for presenting the context and significance of each entry's inclusion on the list, and if that's inadequate the list can be edited to provide whatever means of displaying the context the community deems suitable. - DustFormsWords (talk) 23:51, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- No. That amounts to a bunch of people create a contextless pointless list, and then say "if people object they can do all the work of filling in the context" - knowing it will not happen. Sorry, not buying it. The list is useless and ought to be removed. All the information can be retained elsewhere.--Scott Mac 23:56, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Even though I cleaned up this list, I am not a huge fan of it. That said, barbaric is just hyperbole. What I do find surprising is that people object to this well referenced list but don't seem to mind Category:Deaths from AIDS-related illness and Category:HIV-positive people. Garion96 (talk) 00:05, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Since when do lists not allow for context? Are you sure you're not thinking of categories? Lists can be formatted in any way suitable to the best encyclopaedic presentation of the information. This one has a whole field titled "Comments" specifically for presenting the context and significance of each entry's inclusion on the list, and if that's inadequate the list can be edited to provide whatever means of displaying the context the community deems suitable. - DustFormsWords (talk) 23:51, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Whatever. The "IDONTLIKEIT" is response is tired - it just avoids you answering the point. Lists don't allow for context, you are either off or on. You either get labelled and chucked in, or you don't. That's crude, useless and offensive - and no, I don't like it, and nor should you. There are better ways to organise this information and so we should use them. Not keep an utterly useless list.--Scott Mac 23:47, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- "is quite frankly barbaric" is as close to a textbook WP:IDONTLIKEIT vote as they come. If you think the list needs more "context" then that's a suggestion for content improvement, not deletion. Colin°Talk 23:37, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep , for those people where it is a significant part of their biography, & unmistakable evidence. (I estimate this might be 1/3 of the present list) There is really no justification for keeping it otherwise, any more than any other medical condition. really see difficulties with this--it basically is not a list of notable people who are HIV positive, but of notable public personalities who are HIV positive--and it is those individual in particular where there is no adequate referencing in their Wikipedia articles , and a few of those with no adequate referencing are living people. I normally support lists of people by [whatever], but this is one of the truly borderline ones. I would have much less trouble with the list if it were of people who have dies of AIDS, analogous to the other lists at Lists of people by cause of death. What people have died of is a more controllable grouping than those who have had a disease. I find it remarkable that nobody has attempted to make such an article--I searched WP & AfD with a variety of possible words, but did not find it. DGG ( talk ) 23:43, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep BLP was created by Wales for save himself of being sued. The list is encyclopedic and according to its star in the corner, well-written. It is recently at AFD for a simple issue of a stupid kid who was playing and/or attacking someone s/he hates, it's ridiculous nominate it for that issues, if the problem is "BLP issues" indef-protect the page and put it an orange lock Tbhotch™ and © 23:50, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Not wanting to be sued was part of it. Showing basic human decency towards other people was part of it too. Just because a list can be made, doesn't mean it should. Trebor (talk) 01:09, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep – a quick google brings up loads of these types of lists, and famous people who have died of AIDS have been the focus of many reliable sources. I think a list of people who have died of AIDS has a stronger claim of notability, so maybe a shift in the focus of the list rather than outright deletion is preferable. Betty Logan (talk) 23:51, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Delete per much of the above, the majority of these people are not notable for HIV. Also, I hope that arguments of the nature "it's a featured list, so can't be deleted/must be good" will be disregarded; this is not true, and ignoring the issue. Trebor (talk) 23:58, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Delete, or convert into List of people who have died of AIDS. --JN466 00:05, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Delete per WP:LISTPEOPLE. It says that lists of people require that "the person's membership in the list's group is notable in some way (in other words, a person should not be included in a list merely because they happen to be a member of the list's group)." Nearly all entries on this list violate this guideline, because they are about otherwise notable people who happen to have (had) AIDS. Suffering or dying from AIDS is unfortunately so relatively common that the list of people who are (mainly) notable for having AIDS is probably very short, and can (if it is at all necessary) be integrated into the main AIDS article or a subarticle thereof.
In addition, the following caution in WP:BLPCAT, part of the policy WP:BLP, must be borne in mind: "Caution should be used with categories that suggest a person has a poor reputation ... These principles apply equally to ... lists". This caution applies here because in many parts of the world having AIDS is still a severe stigma and/or is widely associated with sexual practices that are considered objectionable (see the list's introduction and AIDS#Stigma). Our BLP policy therefore provides another good reason not to have a list article about this topic unless it is absolutely required for encyclopedic completeness. Our notability rules are an appropriate yardstick for answering whether this is the case. While AIDS itself is obviously notable, the topic "List of HIV-positive people" does not seem to be – I don't see references to reliable sources dedicated to this specific topic –, and so Wikipedia can do without it. Sandstein 00:17, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Comment - Surely if the list topic is appropriate, but the content does not match content policy, the appropriate outcome is Keep and Edit, rather than Delete? (I note you also have an argument that the list topic is also invalid, but you'd almost have to be wrong about that, as there are people on the list who are verifiably notable for being HIV positive, and there's nothing in principle wrong with a list of people who are notable for the same thing.) - DustFormsWords (talk) 00:31, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- No, my argument is that the list content, if reduced to the few people who are notable mainly for having AIDS, would likely be so small as to make a standalone list unnecessary. You can disprove this contention by removing all other people from the list and adding a sourced explanation to the remaining entries about how these people are notable for having AIDS. Even if this leaves a list of ten or so entries, per WP:BLPCAT, we would need a compelling reason for keeping this reduced list either as part of an article or as a standalone list. Such a compelling reason can only be that reliable reference works have decided to publish similar lists of AIDS-infected people – that is, that the topic of this list itself is notable. I don't see any evidence for that. Sandstein 00:45, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- You're underestimating how many entries on the list are valid entries as people notable for being HIV positive. For example: Rock Hudson, Ilka Tanya Payán, Robert Reed, Vasily Aleksanyan, Sean Strub, and the entirety of the AIDS Activists and Criminal Transmission sections are all valid listings. That's 35 names, and I've stopped before I've gotten more than a fifth of the way down the current list. Yes, it needs a trim, but there's no question there's sufficient content for an encyclopaedic list. I'm not going to trim it now as it would be a substantial and controversial change to an article under discussion, and hence impolite, but I'm more than happy to do it after it gets kept. - DustFormsWords (talk) 00:57, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- I disagree: Hudson and Reed are mainly notable as actors, Payán and Strub as AIDS activists, Aleksanyan for his legal and political issues. None of these people would be notable (that is, get an article) only because of the fact that they are or were infected with HIV. Only Payán and Strub might conceivably feature in a dedicated list of AIDS activists, while with the other three the link between the disease and their notability is too tenuous. I suppose that this needs to be determined case by case, but the only way for us to do this easily is a field in the list that explains why a person is on that list. Even if there should be many such entries, which I continue to doubt, my other argument about BLPCAT requiring its deletion because reliable sources do not publish similar lists still stands. Sandstein 01:16, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Biographical lists are not limited to only those facts for which their subjects are notable (i.e., why they have articles). The guidelines say what they say, but they expressly note that there are exceptions, and the overwhelming practice and documented consensus in AFD after AFD is supportive of lists that document significant biographical facts regardless of whether they are why the subjects have articles. See, e.g., Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of kidney stone formers for a recent example of a medical condition list. postdlf (talk) 16:43, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- Delete. Deaths from HIV might make a notable list, but as a list of living people this is inappropriate. Will Beback talk 00:28, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep, this is indisputably a highly significant biographical fact, and it is very informative to index those notable people who are HIV-positive, both to cross-reference those with that shared fact as well as to provide information about HIV in the form of notable people who have tested positive for it. It is completely irrelevant that most of those listed are not notable for having HIV because that is not a standard for biographical lists or for inclusion in them, as is evidenced by a multitude of extant biographical lists, which deal with place of origin, university attended, etc. And such lists are consistently kept at AFD (see, e.g., Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of kidney stone formers). Nothing in BLP compels the deletion of this list, and complaints about how difficult the list is to maintain are completely speculative, and even if substantiated such complaints would not establish anything more than the need for protection. postdlf (talk) 00:36, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Delete.Not only is such a list inappropriate and unethical, it exposes editors and wikipedia to legal issues. Several people have been included on the list who do not appear to have HIV. For instance Naomi Russell (a pornographic actress) was listed due to some internet rumors. It was even sourced, but the article cited said nothing about her having HIV. Make no mistake, including someone who doesn't have HIV on a public list as a person who does have HIV is defamation of character. Further, if this article isn't deleted, I will personally contact every person living who appears on the list, to inform them that they are listed on wikipedia's "People with HIV" page. It is only fair for them to have the opportunity to respond or take legal action. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 00:55, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep The article is very well referenced, so there are no BLP issues. The subject is encyclopedic and still very relevant. Regent of the Seatopians (talk) 01:00, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- See WP:UNENCYCLOPEDIC for the "encyclopedic" comment. In what way, exactly, is it meant to be "still very relevant"? Trebor (talk) 01:04, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- comment the article is not well-referenced. The very first entry I checked had an invalid reference and needed removing.--Scott Mac 01:02, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Providing the article is CAPABLE of being well-referenced, and would still have valid entries after having unreferencable entries removed, AfD doesn't care how well sourced it is. Adding and checking references can be done through normal editing; AfD is not for cleanup. - DustFormsWords (talk) 01:04, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Some keep voters are arguing that there's no BLP hazard due to excellent referencing - I'm simply pointing out that isn't true. Even with the care that's obviously been taken here, some entries are poorly or invalidly referenced. With the best will in world, that's unlikely to change with a list that includes so many subject that scrape into Wikipedia's notability for reasons unrelated to HIV, and thus the sole source for their inclusion in this article is some chance passing remark on some website or archived news article. The article is a liability.--Scott Mac 01:10, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- There will always be small slips. This was a dead link which was fixed in 10 seconds. This list is better referenced then many of the individual articles. Garion96 (talk) 01:14, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- An unsourced accusation that someone has HIV is not a small slip. Trebor (talk) 01:21, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Very true. Hakkapeliitta (talk) 01:44, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- That a link changed from http://www.rebekkaonline.com to http://rebekkaonline.net is a small slip. Garion96 (talk) 01:28, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- [35] - a number of dead links, some of which have been so for a long time. Trebor (talk) 01:36, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- So? This example was fixed. But that a New York Times article is now a dead link, or a Reuters article is not so bad. The link should be removed but the reference can still stand. Garion96 (talk) 01:44, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- [35] - a number of dead links, some of which have been so for a long time. Trebor (talk) 01:36, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
The article has had problems the entire time its been up. But those issues aside a master list of people with HIV/AIDS not appropriate. It is not encyclopedic and it is not ethical, plus it is a major legal liability. It doesn't matter if you defamed someone for two second, two months or two years, it was still libelous; and even when not libelous it still presents legal issues. I don't see how anyone could seriously argue otherwise. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 01:19, 6 January 2011 (UTC) For those making the BLP argument, this isn't a biography page. It is a listing of people with a medical condition. I think most people don't have an issue with including a person's HIV status on a biography page, when it is well referenced (interestingly I found a number of biography articles where a person who does not have HIV was said to have it). However a master list of people with HIV/AID, strikes many here as unethical. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 01:24, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Absolutely agree. You can sue someone for that kind of slip. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 01:24, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry, some kind of glitch duplicated my comment; it was not aimed as you. Trebor (talk) 01:25, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
I think I did it accidentally trying to fix an edit conflict. Sorry. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 01:27, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Comment' – by shifting the focus of list to people who have died of AIDS would nullify the potential legal problems. Betty Logan (talk) 01:40, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Delete As per everyone above. This is the dumbest of the dumbest of lists, it has no value other than to lump together poeple based on one variable. It can never be completed; it can never even be nearly completed; it can only ever be a dumb list of some people with HIV and some falsely labeled as such. John lilburne (talk) 01:50, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Delete per WP:BLP-nightmare ukexpat (talk) 01:58, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Discussion about closure moved to talk page.--Scott Mac 09:17, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep I would much prefer that this list were converted to those who have died from AIDS. It would remove most of the valid BLP concerns, and some form of protection should deal with most of the rest. Sadly, refraining from !voting and suggesting a logical compromise at AfD would probably be a waste of time. As I believe that it is possible to deal with the BLP
issues inconcerns with this list without deleting, it should not be deleted until that avenue has been explored. I do not believe that it could be explored while an AfD is open, and therefore feel that in the meantime the list should be kept. —WFC— 04:41, 6 January 2011 (UTC) (comments by User:WFCforLife restored by User:Betty Logan after they were removed by User:Beyond My Ken) - Comment – I believe all the relevant information can be found on the articles Timeline of AIDS and Timeline of early AIDS cases. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 06:06, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Comment on legal threat. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk · contribs) has now made WP:LEGAL threats here and is apparrently contacting all the people on the list so they can sue Wikipedia (see here). Colin°Talk 08:39, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Comment re WP:BLP A number of people are citing WP:BLP. Indeed it seems to be the only policy issue raised. However, it is a false argument. If Wikipedia articles can claim person X has HIV then this information can also appear elsewhere, such as a list, provided it is sourced. As I noted above, categories are unsuitable for this very reason. Where is the policy that says sensitive information can only appear in the main biography page? It has been suggested this is a privacy issue, but the article is cites published sources so the information is already public. We don't cite hospital records. But more fundamentally, if this list is to be deleted because it is a list of information that may "suggest that the persons included in the list or template have a poor reputation", for example, then it would imply we delete all lists of possibly negative information. If we can claim people are members of a UFO cult then this is small beer. I would certainly be keen to open up a community RfC if that were the case as it has big implications. Colin°Talk 08:39, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- If the articles contain this 'factoid' and the list has the 'factoid' then if the 'factoid' is actually a 'lietoid' there are now two places where the information has to be removed from. Experience shows that is unlikely to happen, which is why databases try to ensure that each piece of information is only recorded in one place. John lilburne (talk) 12:55, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Well the same is true of articles and articles. Would we say the article on the famous wife of a famous man with HIV was unable to mention this "factoid"? There's no policy against duplicating information, even sensitive information. Colin°Talk 13:11, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- If the articles contain this 'factoid' and the list has the 'factoid' then if the 'factoid' is actually a 'lietoid' there are now two places where the information has to be removed from. Experience shows that is unlikely to happen, which is why databases try to ensure that each piece of information is only recorded in one place. John lilburne (talk) 12:55, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Related lists and AfDs Similar Featured Lists (some of whom have undergone AfD attempts), are Articles for deletion/List of people with epilepsy, Articles for deletion/List of brain tumor patients, Articles for deletion/List of people with hepatitis C and List of poliomyelitis survivors. I contend that the lists are actually better sourced that most of their linked bio-articles. Colin°Talk 08:39, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- The argument about list maintenance doesn't hold either. I help to maintain "List of vegetarians" and the "pooling" of the claims makes it much easier to maintain the integrity of the information. Names are commonly added without sources and I can either track a source down or remove the name; similarly, names are sometimes pulled without reason. I can reverse this straight away. Everyone on the list has an article on Wikipedia, but some are poorly sourced and not maintained; I daresay such claims are added and removed from articles at whim. Having a list is an efficient way to maintain the integrity of this particular type of information and apply a common standard to referencing, something which I personally could not do if the list was deleted and each and every claim had to be maintained on the individual articles. I would say in relation to something as contentious as HIV, a list could be very helpful if you are going to include this information on the respective articles. If claims are made on articles then they should be added to the list, and if the claim doesn't hold up for whatever reason on the list it should be removed from the article. If an editor wants to add a claim to the article, the person may already be on the list backed up by a high quality source which can be ported into the article. So if this information is to be recorded on individual articles it is well worth keeping a list since I believe they do reinforce the integrity of information. Betty Logan (talk) 09:07, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Comment on patrolling - The list currently contains a link to an entry that is a clear BLP1E violation - Veronica Prego. If her entry is correct, then the event is clearly notable, but per WP:BLP, she should not have a biography. The fact that her birthdate was not specified on the list tipped me off, rather obviously, to check out her entry. If the list is so vigilantly patrolled for BLP issues this kind of thing should not be missed. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 13:16, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- That's nothing to do with patrolling. Both Veronica Prego's article and this list pre-date WP:BLP by years. You can be sure that if someone (you?) puts her article up for AfD then it will be deleted from this list as soon as the link turns red. Colin°Talk 13:49, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Either people are vigilantly patrolling the contents of the list or they are not. Are you seriously saying that any BLP entry to the list made before WP:BLP was on the books should be considered a BLP concern until checked, but that you all can't be bothered to check them out because they are grandfathered into the "I don't care about those entries" group? Your response makes me even more worried.Griswaldo (talk) 14:02, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- I interpret "patrolling" as "checking edits and additions". Checking existing content to make sure it meets all our policies is another task, just as important, but not "patrolling". The fact that Veronica Prego has had an article for five years without anyone raising BLP issues shows just how huge the "find existing BLP issues on WP" task is. And just undermines whether that argument is helpful to an AfD discussion. And before you question whether people can be "bothered", why haven't you put that article up for AfD since you discovered the BLP issue. Colin°
- I haven't nominated it for AfD because the event is clearly notable, which is what BLP1E concerns in case you missed that. As soon as I caught it I started a thread at WP:BLPN to ask for input on how best to proceed. If you care to join the discussion it is here - Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Veronica_Prego. It's best to look into all matters thoroughly before slinging around accusations. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 15:57, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- I did and and can't see why you asked the noticeboard when you're so adamant the article shouldn't exist and therefore the entry shouldn't exist in this list and therefore the folk "patrolling" this list are so un"vigilant" that the list should be deleted. Either it is a "a clear BLP1E violation" as you state (and the article should be deleted with haste), or it isn't. This is getting off topic... Colin°Talk 16:29, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- It is off topic but you should read WP:BLP. All BLP problems are not necessarily solved by outright deletion of content. The idea in this case is to delete the entry, as in there shouldn't be an entry with her name on it, but to save the notable event content in the form that doesn't violate BLP. It is a clear violation in its current form and it is being dealt with in the appropriate manner. Just because you say otherwise doesn't make it so. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 16:34, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- I have read it. And the article should be deleted by creating an AfD on it. Not all AfD discussions are resolved by "by outright deletion of content". Perhaps you should read our deletion policy. Colin°Talk 16:51, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Again, WP:BLP1E suggests something quite different from AfD, but you're going to continue to say whatever you want clearly. Cheers mate.Griswaldo (talk) 17:01, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- For once I agree completely with Griswaldo. The article violates BLP1E but information about the event is notable and oughts to be kept/merged in some form. --Cyclopiatalk 17:08, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Ok, I take your point. However, if the article claim that she was the first needlestick->HIV doctor is true (or at least, the first to sue, I can't find it in any source) then there is still a case for including her in this list as a "Scientifically notable case", albeit unlinked. Again, this BLP issue is irrelevant to whether the list should be deleted. Colin°Talk 17:41, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- For once I agree completely with Griswaldo. The article violates BLP1E but information about the event is notable and oughts to be kept/merged in some form. --Cyclopiatalk 17:08, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Again, WP:BLP1E suggests something quite different from AfD, but you're going to continue to say whatever you want clearly. Cheers mate.Griswaldo (talk) 17:01, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- I have read it. And the article should be deleted by creating an AfD on it. Not all AfD discussions are resolved by "by outright deletion of content". Perhaps you should read our deletion policy. Colin°Talk 16:51, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- It is off topic but you should read WP:BLP. All BLP problems are not necessarily solved by outright deletion of content. The idea in this case is to delete the entry, as in there shouldn't be an entry with her name on it, but to save the notable event content in the form that doesn't violate BLP. It is a clear violation in its current form and it is being dealt with in the appropriate manner. Just because you say otherwise doesn't make it so. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 16:34, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- I did and and can't see why you asked the noticeboard when you're so adamant the article shouldn't exist and therefore the entry shouldn't exist in this list and therefore the folk "patrolling" this list are so un"vigilant" that the list should be deleted. Either it is a "a clear BLP1E violation" as you state (and the article should be deleted with haste), or it isn't. This is getting off topic... Colin°Talk 16:29, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- I haven't nominated it for AfD because the event is clearly notable, which is what BLP1E concerns in case you missed that. As soon as I caught it I started a thread at WP:BLPN to ask for input on how best to proceed. If you care to join the discussion it is here - Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Veronica_Prego. It's best to look into all matters thoroughly before slinging around accusations. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 15:57, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- I interpret "patrolling" as "checking edits and additions". Checking existing content to make sure it meets all our policies is another task, just as important, but not "patrolling". The fact that Veronica Prego has had an article for five years without anyone raising BLP issues shows just how huge the "find existing BLP issues on WP" task is. And just undermines whether that argument is helpful to an AfD discussion. And before you question whether people can be "bothered", why haven't you put that article up for AfD since you discovered the BLP issue. Colin°
- Either people are vigilantly patrolling the contents of the list or they are not. Are you seriously saying that any BLP entry to the list made before WP:BLP was on the books should be considered a BLP concern until checked, but that you all can't be bothered to check them out because they are grandfathered into the "I don't care about those entries" group? Your response makes me even more worried.Griswaldo (talk) 14:02, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- That's nothing to do with patrolling. Both Veronica Prego's article and this list pre-date WP:BLP by years. You can be sure that if someone (you?) puts her article up for AfD then it will be deleted from this list as soon as the link turns red. Colin°Talk 13:49, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Talk 14:14, 6 January 2011 (UTC) Collin: I am not threatening legal action myself. I am pointing out that libel was committed on the page. I am also pointing out that people who are on this list, have a right to know. So I am informing them so they can either take legal action or lodge a complaint with wikipedia. This is common decency. And I am sorry but in this case, US LAW trumps WIKI GUIDELINES.Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 13:49, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep -- only if an admin is willing to leave it indefinitely FULLY protected so that only approved edits reach it by talk request, with sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Merrill Stubing (talk • contribs) 14:41, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Strong keep : multiple reasons:
- No true BLP issues. Like every article dealing with persons, this needs special attention and problems can always lurk. But like in many cases, people ask for deletion as an easy-but-destructive solution for something that can be fixed by much more constructive means: what we need is to watch the article and keep all entries well sourced and double-checked. That's it. Once that is done, let us remember that BLP allows us to write about potentially negative stuff if such stuff is properly sourced. Some entries may be contentious and some pruning may be in order, but we do not delete what we can fix by editing, per deletion policy.
- Once entries are sourced, ethical concerns also become moot, since if someone is publicly known to be HIV positive, issues of privacy etc. become irrelevant.
- No policy or guideline-based deletion rationale
- Inclusion criteria are clear-cut. Entries are well sourced (and if some entry is not, it can be simply removed without putting into discussion the existence of the list).
- List is a strong navigational aid and has real-world use, as also above mentioned. The list provides a context that categories can't provide; moreover it provides a much better centralized place to check for sourcing than categories.
- Procedurally, it is true that consensus can change, but as someone has stated above, the review standards for FA go usually deeper than discussion at AfD; I feel therefore not proper deciding do delete a featured list at a simple AfD. If policy doesn't provide a mechanism for dealing with this kind of special situation, perhaps we should create one. --Cyclopiatalk 16:18, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- You have addressed all the policy based reasons for keeping the article, very well I might add. However, I don't see the "right thing" or the problematic aspects towards living people addressed at all here. Not everything is policy based, that is, policy is not a hard, fast rule. Does the article comply with Wikipedia based policy, yes, for the most part. What say you to those concerns I addressed in my request at the very top of this AFD in my deletion rationale? Warmly, NonvocalScream (talk) 16:34, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Regaring your first two points in your rationale. Do you mind Category:Deaths from AIDS-related illness and Category:HIV-positive people as much as this list? On this list at least it is all well sourced and it is much easier to maintain than a category. Regarding your third point. According to Wikipedia these are all public figures since each entry has a corresponding Wikipedia article. I had a hard enough time to keep red links of this list. Garion96 (talk) 16:57, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Well, here we go:
- I fail to see the encyclopaedic value of listing even a small subset of those people.: WP:UNENCYC is a known fallacy. I personally find such lists exactly the kind of stuff that encyclopedia articles should contain -a structured compendium of information linked by a common thread. That you do not like it is not a reason to remove it for everyone.
- I don't think this is the right thing for a responsible project to do: A responsible project should balance the need of protecting living people with the need of providing a comprehensive documentation, including navigational aids like such lists. A responsible project therefore can for sure discuss which entries can belong to the list or not, be sure to check thoroughly the status of the entries related to living persons etc. but also shouldn't fall prey of moral panic and decide of pre-emptively remove everything because it could be remotely dangerous. There is also a duty towards our readers to provide information, an ethical duty as well.
- Also, ethically, we don't act as a responsible project by imposing our personal choice of ethics on others, wildly, but by compromising the tensions between opposites on a consensual set of rules that describe a shared set of norms. That's what civilized societies do and that's what also WP does. That's why we painstakingly discuss here, why we painstakingly build consensus to have policies and guidelines and we attempt to follow them, even if nobody of us agrees 100% with all of them. Therefore sticking to policy is not a mere legalistic shortcut, it is the way to ensure that what we do is following the most consensual path.
- I hope it helps. --Cyclopiatalk 16:58, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Firstly, there's certainly no ethical duty to our readers to provide this list. Ignoring policy for a second, this fundamentally comes down to what sort of project we want to be. This list can be made, sure, and it can be sourced reliably, but that doesn't mean it should be made. Remember, this particular collection of information does not exist outside of Wikipedia, we are choosing to group these people together because they share a particular virus. And we are grouping them irrespective of whether having HIV is what makes them notable or not. Wikipedia is full of information, which we can arrange in a thousand million different ways; I'm yet to be convinced that this is a good idea. Trebor (talk) 18:00, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Expanding because I'm not sure I'm explaining myself very well. Wikipedia is full of articles about notable people, the vast majority of whom don't have HIV. The world is full of people who have HIV, the vast majority of whom aren't notable. We are drawing a Venn diagram, with a circle for notable people and a circle for people with HIV, and creating a list out of the bit which overlaps. Why is this bit notable? The people are notable, and the virus is notable, but that doesn't mean the people with the virus are notable and should be grouped. The article should really be titled "List of people who Wikipedia considers notable, and who also have HIV". Because that's the standard for being on it. Trebor (talk) 18:08, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- "this particular collection of information does not exist outside of Wikipedia" Not true, although I suspect this is the largest and best sourced of such lists. Colin°Talk 19:35, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Firstly, there's certainly no ethical duty to our readers to provide this list : Your opinion. Mine is that once a sound,good,informative articles/lists like this one, that even went to featured status, have been provided, it is an ethical duty to our readers to maintain and take care of them, not to remove them.
- but that doesn't mean it should be made. : But we're not asking for reasons for it to be made, we are asking for reasons it shouldn't be made.
- I'm yet to be convinced that this is a good idea. : And I'm yet to be convinced that this isn't. Example: If I want to research, say, how the AIDS epidemic impacted the visual arts, having available a list of HIV-positive visual artists could be very useful as a start point (e.g. to see how their life/work was impacted by the disease). Being useful is normally not an inclusion criteria, but lists are different: they're meant to help the reader navigate the encyclopedia information. --Cyclopiatalk 18:35, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- "The article should really be titled "List of people who Wikipedia considers notable, and who also have HIV". Because that's the standard for being on it." Yes, that is the standard for this list, and many other biographical lists, and it's only a matter of naming convention that they are not titled "List of notable people who..." List of people from California only contains people who merit articles, as does List of Georgetown University alumni, List of kidney stone formers, List of people born in 1920... The fact that no one is notable for being born in 1920 does not mean that there's no encyclopedic value to listing together those who were. Further, the creation of lists for real life groups that do not wholly consist of notable members, but are limited in practice only to members that merit articles, is in fact done across the board in Wikipedia: lists of companies, films, websites... That this is an appropriate practice and standard has been discussed ad nauseum, both in repeated AFDs and in numerous policy and guideline discussions regarding lists and notability criteria. They function both as navigational indexes of articles grouped by shared significant facts, and as supplemental subtopics to the fact (here, HIV) that the list is organized around. postdlf (talk) 18:54, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- You have addressed all the policy based reasons for keeping the article, very well I might add. However, I don't see the "right thing" or the problematic aspects towards living people addressed at all here. Not everything is policy based, that is, policy is not a hard, fast rule. Does the article comply with Wikipedia based policy, yes, for the most part. What say you to those concerns I addressed in my request at the very top of this AFD in my deletion rationale? Warmly, NonvocalScream (talk) 16:34, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 19:08, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Do either of you think there's a limit to what we should list? Would either of you find anything wrong with the article List of rape victims, for instance, or List of people who have had miscarriages or List of child abuse victims? Trebor (talk) 20:05, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Personally, no. Could you elaborate on why such articles should be intrinsically "wrong"? --Cyclopiatalk 20:17, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- (unindent) Okay, it's clear we won't agree on this then. It comes down to a matter of personal standards. If you feel that BLP is only about covering ourselves legally, then those kinds of lists are fine (assuming they're maintained properly). Personally, I feel we should be setting ourselves a much higher standard. I think that, wherever possible, we should be trying to avoid doing any harm. And I think it's highly likely that some of the people on this list will not be happy with what we've done. The idea of having an ethical duty to our readers is rubbish; this is a community governed by consensus, so if the majority don't want to do something (for whatever reason), we don't do it. The decision will be made by the community, not the readers. If the consensus is that this kind of stuff is fine, then I can't do anything about it. Trebor (talk) 23:03, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- I don't think at all that BLP is only about covering ourselves legally. I think BLP means that we have to take more care in doing stuff when it deals with living people, because doing things wrong in this case can have direct real life consequences. This is fine. But we should not cry BLP when there are no real concrete BLP issues. There is a lot of stuff in our biographical articles that surely makes their subjects unhappy, but it stays and it is fully BLP-compliant, because it is properly sourced, verifiable and relevant to the article. If we only want to "do no harm" we then should shut down Wikipedia for good. As your opinion that "having an ethical duty to our readers is rubbish", I'm baffled: if you don't care about our readers, what are you doing here? --Cyclopiatalk 17:57, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
Back to the legal issue. Someone said its moot for some reason. We know of one person (Naomi Russell) who was on the list for 2 days). Whether or not wikipedia has sourcing guidelines, this woman was subject to a libelous claim within the article for two full days. That is not something for us to gloss over. The fact that it was up there at all was a major problem. And ther reason it stayed so long, was because the person who added it, sourced it. However, the sourced article contained no mention of her. Editors simply didn't bother checking the source. And this is just scratching the surface. If we did a thorough review, who knows what would turn up. - - Also, I don't see the encyclopedic value of the list. This information can already be included in individual articles. But having a master list just creates two opportunities for innacurate material. The argument that its a valuable reference source is bogus, given that wikipedia articles themselves are not a proper source. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 19:10, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- It also was put a few times on the Naomi Russel article. Shall we delete that too? Wikipedia articles are not a proper source but of course are a valuable reference. Otherwise we could just shut down Wikipeida if it's not a valuable reference anymore. Garion96 (talk) 19:16, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
First off, wikipedia is not, nor has it ever been a reliable source (in fact the founder has made such a statement himself). Second, there is a big difference between innacurate content in a biography page, and a master list that is clearly going to be an ongoing problem because 1) Ethical issue of having a People with aids list, 2) the legal issue that arises, because the liklihood labelling someone as having AIDS/HIV is greater than on other pages (because the focus here is people with the virus). Others have noted the problem of devoting a list to people with HIV. Most of us are fine with that info being on a biography page. We're not okay (morally or legally) with a master list of who has the disease. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 19:27, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
As for it being a valuable reference, I don't think so. You shouldn't reference wikipedia articles while working on other wikipedia articles. There is a very good chance that the reason it ended up on her biography page twice, is becuase it was listed on the Whos got HIV page.Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 19:29, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Point 1 and 2 I don't know for sure if I agree or not. That's what this debate is about. Regarding Naomi Russel. No, actually I think it was the same anon IP who did it on both pages. And the person did not sourced it. The IP just put a irrelevant newspaper article to it. Basically vandalism, not sourcing. That you shouldn't use Wikipedia as a source does not mean it is not a valuable resource. Those are two completely different things. If you don't see Wikipedia as a valuable resource, what are you doing here? It just is not a reliable source (like using it as a reference) which btw, I never said it was. Garion96 (talk) 19:35, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
I understand the ethical conlusions I am making are subjective, but I honeslty think they reflect the feelings of most people. Imagine tomorrow there is a NYT article that wikipedia has a list of people with HIV/AIDs. What do you think the reaction would be? I think there are serious ethical problems with such a list. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 19:43, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- A few of those lists have been used as a reference for this list actually. Garion96 (talk) 19:53, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Garion, that is sourcing it. It may be a flawed source, but for all intents and purposes, when people visit the page, it looks sourced. It wasn't until you followed the link that you realized there was a problem. And it wasn't the only item on the list with a questionable source (see discussion on the page for more). Further I don't think it was vandalism. It was innacurate, but I think it was from someone who simply believed the internet rumors were true, and the rumors were based on the article he included as a source (the rumor started because she retired soon after or around the time that the case in the article occured). Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 19:45, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- I could as well state myself a billionaire and use the forbes list as a reference. That also is sourcing? Garion96 (talk) 19:53, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Yes. It is bad sourcing. But it is sourcing. The requirement isn't just that an item be sourced, but that the source be reliable and relevent. However, when someone opens the page and sees an item is sourced, they rarely check to investigate the later two points. And this is exactly how Naomi Russell was listed as HIV positive on this page.
- If you do think my example is also considered sourcing. Than it's safe to way we will have to agree to disagree. :) Yes, the requirement is that the source be reliable and relevant. Ergo, there was no sourcing in this case. Garion96 (talk) 20:14, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
By the way, if a listing of people who have suffered from something unfortunate is encyclopedic, we might as well start a list of notable peopl who have suffered miscarriages. Or notable people who had colon cancer. There is something very sinister about list of People with HIV/AIDS. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 20:04, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- See Category:Lists of people by medical condition. Tried to AFD some but didn't worked. Garion96 (talk) 20:14, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Just because these pages exist, that doesn't mean they should. I for one believe they should be deleted. However, given the stigma associated with HIV, it is clearly even more problematic (and as a real world editor, I can also say confidently unencyclopedic). Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 20:20, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Deliciousgrapefruit, could you elaborate what's "sinister" about such a list? It's not like we're outing people, it is meant to be a list of already publicly known HIV infected people. About your editorial experience, well, WP is quite different from a classical old-school encyclopaedia and in any case WP:UNENCYC is a known fallacy. --Cyclopiatalk 20:22, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
What is sinsiter about it? If you have to ask then maybe that sheds light on the problem. You have a disease that has a serious stigma attached to it, and you are creating a master list of all known people with the disease. Imagine if the new york times ran an article "100 people with HIV". If you can't see the difference between that and simply including it as an additional fact in someone's biography, I don't really know what to say. And again, the additional issues of people being on the list who shouldn't be are an issue. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 20:28, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
This shouldn't be treated as a BLP page, and editing didn't do a good enough job in this case. Someone was on here for two days who doesn't have the disease. That is a major problem. Not a minor one. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 20:29, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- You probably want to say that this should be treated as a BLP page -and indeed it has to be. But yes, what happened is a major problem, I fully agree. It is called vandalism and unfortunately it can have bad real-life consequences. However when the John Seigenthaler page was vandalized, in the most known incident that led to current BLP practices, we didn't react by deleting his page. This is a publicly editable site, so every page is a potential hazard. If you think that shutting off hazards is the only way, then you want to shut off WP for good. --Cyclopiatalk 20:40, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
No, I meant to say it shouldn't be treated as BLP. It is a list, not a biography. A biography can express nuance (such as "it was reported that so and so has HIV"), but a list like this is binary: the person is listed as simply having the disease. Sure every page is a potential hazard, but one specifically intended only to list people who have HIV is going to be more problematic. And again there is no encyclopedic need for the list, nor is ethically advisable to have such a list. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 20:44, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- And no, that wasn't vandalism. Doesn't even come close. I am assuming the person who posted that believed it was correct, and believed the article was an adequate source. It wasn't vandalism, it was bad editing. Something that is frankly, all too much the norm on wikipedia.You guys keep citing wikie guidelines, I will continue to reference US law. When my magazine trends into libel, I don't show prosecutors my style guide. People must begin to understand, this isn't a game. The rules have changed for online publishing. People are subject to the same laws as print publishers now. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 20:46, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- So it was an honest mistake or vandalism, it's the same. In the encyclopedia that anyone can edit, these things will forever happen. We have to do everything possible to keep open eyes and avoid these situations, but the only way to be sure is shutting down WP for good. In any case, if your fear WP being sued, contact Mike Godwin, Wikimedia lawyer. --Cyclopiatalk 20:56, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Just for reference, Cyclopia, it is not the Wikimedia Foundation who would get sued. They are not liable for editors' contributions (Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act). It is the editors themselves, personally, who would be sued, and there is nothing that says the Foundation would have to support them in their defence. The Seigenthaler editor for example was identified eventually, and so have been editors in another couple of cases. Mike Godwin has not been the Foundation's lawyer for a few months. --JN466 23:08, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep - Any BLP issues can easily be fixed by editing, therefore there is no need for deletion.—Chris!c/t 20:25, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep - I'm proud to have made several edits to this page because I think it is important information and because I think it is important for good people to pay careful attention to the sourcing for every entry on the page. I admit that I don't come to look at this page every time I see an edit to it, but I didn't realize that "only" 73 people had it watchlisted (that number is surprisingly small). Protection would be a good idea in view of the potential for harm, but pages should not be deleted simply because they are targets for malicious mischief. --Orlady (talk) 20:59, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
You people should be ashamed supporting an article like this. Wikipedia is a terrible source for information, and I can see by the editing guidelines it is destined to remain a third rate source. I am going to make sure everyone on the list has a chance to know abou it. And I will right about it on my wikiwatch blog. Looks like the wikigeeks win again. This has to be the worst encyclopedia I've ever read. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 21:03, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- I was taking you seriously but not necessary agreeing with you. But after seeingthis edit and this edit it does make that much harder. Garion96 (talk) 21:09, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Facepalm Oh dear, and after these edits he is giving us lessons. Let's stop feeding this troll. Thanks for the heads up Garion96. --Cyclopiatalk 21:12, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Comment Deliciousgrapefruit (talk · contribs) has now been blocked indefinitely. Colin°Talk 22:27, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep the subject is notable - I recall magazines and books detailing lists of creative lives lost through the illness, especially in the 80s and early 90s. I think with semiprotection and judiciious watching it can be safeguarded. Having all people on it referenced helps as well. I am open to the idea of reframing as deaths from HIV too. Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:39, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- back in the 1980s and early 1990s there was great interest in AIDS related deaths by the media as a way of outing gays, and disparaging celebrity sexual excesses. SHOCK HORROR Rock Hudson was TEH GAY! Personally I thought we were beyond that by now. You can see that happening in the first name on the list Amanda Blake where the doctor is keen on telling the world it wasn't cancer, and the referenced news article is keen on pointing the finger of blame on her dead husband. John lilburne (talk) 11:11, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- Its all quite disgraceful, and I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a pro-tobacco lobby influence in that particular reporting/outing either. John lilburne (talk) 11:16, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- It's disappointing how individuals' perceptions of these issues are tainting how they evaluate the validity of this list. "I don't like how this information is used" is not a valid deletion rationale; really no more substantive than IDONTLIKEIT. Where you only see outing and disparagement, many others saw (and see) in publicizing HIV/AIDS victims a vital need to communicate information about the disease, and a need to make its victims visible when much of the world would have rather ignored it or pretended it was a disease only certain kinds of people could get. Or is the AIDS Quilt also an act of morbid media disparagement? Rock Hudson himself disclosed that he was dying of AIDS in a press release, and if you don't know why his case was significant you have some reading to do. postdlf (talk) 12:44, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- If People want to be a poster child to advertise HIV/AIDS then fine. But that doesn't appear to be the case with many on the list, where there HIV/AIDS death was mainly an outing from the pages of prurient celebrity gossip mongers. RH may have made a press statement but he also denied that it had anything to do with him being gay. It was also 25 years ago and I doubt that today there are many people in the at risk groups that know or care who he was. His poster child days were a couple of decades ago. As is most of those on the list how many care about or have ever heard of some daytime American soap actor, or a news anchor from the 1980s? In fact if one scans the list it reads that it was all something that happened 20 years ago - about 25 in the last 10 years. There is hardly any mention of any new modern recruits to the list, which probably reflects that the real world is no longer that interested. John lilburne (talk) 13:25, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- This is beside the point. Deletion is a policy-based decision. Colin°Talk 14:19, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- Policy was outlined by sandstein right at the top of this page, which hasn't been countered. Down here at the bottom of the page we are dealing with the BUTILIKEIT brigade. John lilburne (talk) 15:02, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- (ec)I disagree (that it's beside the point). Policy is, in theory at least, descriptive of community opinion and debates like this help form it. I don't see anything directly applicable to this kind of article (correct me if I've missed something) in policy yet. The issue is not sourcing, it's that some of us feel that the grouping and listing of people who have HIV, regardless of the significance of HIV to their lives, is inappropriate and could hurt living people. And that Wikipedia should try to avoid doing that, even if we aren't legally required to. You may disagree that the list could be harmful. You may disagree that Wikipedia should care if it is. But I don't think it's fair to say that these concerns should be ignored. (Incidentally, do you feel there are any lists which would be inappropriate?) Trebor (talk) 15:09, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- Those concerns aren't ignored; they are the basis for requiring careful sourcing in this list and in any other article. You can justify your deletion opinion out of concern for harm to others all you like, but how is your rationale anything other than "I don't like this list"? You have not claimed that it is POV, or unverifiable, or that the entries are not notable...or any other concern relevant to editing an encyclopedia. You have only asserted a subjective feeling that doesn't support your position any more than its opposite. As noted elsewhere, concern for harm to others could also favor keeping this list, for those who publicly disclosed their HIV-positive status to help educate others and to fight the perception that it was something to be ashamed of, or those who publicize notable victims of the disease to illustrate to a vulnerable and often ignorant public that it can affect any demographic, regardless of sexual orientation, wealth, or other quality.
As for what lists that would be inappropriate, if a fact is noted and verified in most or all of the individual articles for qualifying members and nontrivial to most or all of them, then it is potentially fair game for a list, unless the compiled information is somehow defective, such as for lack of a NPOV definition. We don't restrict lists, or facts in individual articles, only to subjects that don't make us uncomfortable, or to subjects that reflect accomplishments or other positive things. postdlf (talk) 16:35, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- Those concerns aren't ignored; they are the basis for requiring careful sourcing in this list and in any other article. You can justify your deletion opinion out of concern for harm to others all you like, but how is your rationale anything other than "I don't like this list"? You have not claimed that it is POV, or unverifiable, or that the entries are not notable...or any other concern relevant to editing an encyclopedia. You have only asserted a subjective feeling that doesn't support your position any more than its opposite. As noted elsewhere, concern for harm to others could also favor keeping this list, for those who publicly disclosed their HIV-positive status to help educate others and to fight the perception that it was something to be ashamed of, or those who publicize notable victims of the disease to illustrate to a vulnerable and often ignorant public that it can affect any demographic, regardless of sexual orientation, wealth, or other quality.
- This is beside the point. Deletion is a policy-based decision. Colin°Talk 14:19, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- If People want to be a poster child to advertise HIV/AIDS then fine. But that doesn't appear to be the case with many on the list, where there HIV/AIDS death was mainly an outing from the pages of prurient celebrity gossip mongers. RH may have made a press statement but he also denied that it had anything to do with him being gay. It was also 25 years ago and I doubt that today there are many people in the at risk groups that know or care who he was. His poster child days were a couple of decades ago. As is most of those on the list how many care about or have ever heard of some daytime American soap actor, or a news anchor from the 1980s? In fact if one scans the list it reads that it was all something that happened 20 years ago - about 25 in the last 10 years. There is hardly any mention of any new modern recruits to the list, which probably reflects that the real world is no longer that interested. John lilburne (talk) 13:25, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- It's disappointing how individuals' perceptions of these issues are tainting how they evaluate the validity of this list. "I don't like how this information is used" is not a valid deletion rationale; really no more substantive than IDONTLIKEIT. Where you only see outing and disparagement, many others saw (and see) in publicizing HIV/AIDS victims a vital need to communicate information about the disease, and a need to make its victims visible when much of the world would have rather ignored it or pretended it was a disease only certain kinds of people could get. Or is the AIDS Quilt also an act of morbid media disparagement? Rock Hudson himself disclosed that he was dying of AIDS in a press release, and if you don't know why his case was significant you have some reading to do. postdlf (talk) 12:44, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
Section break
[edit]- Delete, partly per The Hand That Feeds You (particularly in his later comments on why a cat would be better than a list), partly per WP:INDISCRIMINATE: Everyone dies of something; we don't have List of people with high blood pressure
or anything of that sort.We do, but that's another issue. I would support deletion of most of these lists as well. What illness certain notable people have (had) is in all but a few cases totally irrelevant even if it can be referenced. For the majority of the entries HIV was not the reason for encyclopedic inclusion, and if this list was trimmed to those, it would still need a new name. --Pgallert (talk) 23:40, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- I would support deleting the other lists as well. Over the last few days I've been thinking along similar lines. There's no way we could ever list all of the people who have ever contracted this disease, nor is there a need to. The list as it is seems to exist for titallations sake, as it is a list of famous people with AIDS not a list of people known for having AIDS.Heiro 00:11, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- Except that categories are more often not checked for BLP violations, this is. The result is still the same, with both you have lists. Except this one is referenced, the category entries often not. Garion96 (talk) 00:37, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- I'm really perplexed by the claims that the categories are somehow less BLP-problematic than a list; that the formatting limitations of categories prevent direct sourcing of category tags, nuance or qualifiers in the category name, or annotation of entries on the category page is entirely what WP:BLPCAT is all about. I think this confusion illustrates well why it isn't productive for the BLPCAT standard to leak into other areas of content as some would like, because then it just obscures the concrete concerns that are unique to categories to the extent that some have come to see categories as somehow less problematic than lists, which completely turns BLPCAT on its head. postdlf (talk) 13:04, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- But The Hand... explained it really well, BLPs are watchlisted (listwatched?!) by editors who have a clue about those people whereas a list of HIV positive people is probably watchlisted by editors who have a clue about HIV (ideally). I have some really obscure BLPs watchlisted, people in my very limited field of expertise. Someone inserts Category:HIV positive people to any of them without giving a source, I revert, type "rvv", and warn. Someone does it to any of the lists that fly around, and I won't notice. Of course you cannot add cats that are not supported by the article prose, and a ref. --Pgallert (talk) 17:41, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- I speak from experience. If there are 100's of articles the chance that not all are being carefully watched is quite high. You have no idea how many times I had to remove Category:HIV-positive people from articles when I cleaned up this list. Garion96 (talk) 19:34, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- But The Hand... explained it really well, BLPs are watchlisted (listwatched?!) by editors who have a clue about those people whereas a list of HIV positive people is probably watchlisted by editors who have a clue about HIV (ideally). I have some really obscure BLPs watchlisted, people in my very limited field of expertise. Someone inserts Category:HIV positive people to any of them without giving a source, I revert, type "rvv", and warn. Someone does it to any of the lists that fly around, and I won't notice. Of course you cannot add cats that are not supported by the article prose, and a ref. --Pgallert (talk) 17:41, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- I'm really perplexed by the claims that the categories are somehow less BLP-problematic than a list; that the formatting limitations of categories prevent direct sourcing of category tags, nuance or qualifiers in the category name, or annotation of entries on the category page is entirely what WP:BLPCAT is all about. I think this confusion illustrates well why it isn't productive for the BLPCAT standard to leak into other areas of content as some would like, because then it just obscures the concrete concerns that are unique to categories to the extent that some have come to see categories as somehow less problematic than lists, which completely turns BLPCAT on its head. postdlf (talk) 13:04, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- Except that categories are more often not checked for BLP violations, this is. The result is still the same, with both you have lists. Except this one is referenced, the category entries often not. Garion96 (talk) 00:37, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- Comment: Just a marginal observation for whose who think that such a list cannot be encyclopedic or useful in any way, well, it seems this very list has been used as a reference in a book [36]. --Cyclopiatalk 01:03, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- Although I'm pretty neutral on this article, that link very frightening. It's good evidence that improperly-cited subjects in the article could have their lives damaged by what we write. Then again, if all of the entries are cited beyond a doubt... ThemFromSpace 21:04, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep: Provided that the sourcing is adequate, this list is, in my opinion, quite "encyclopedic" (though that's as bout a poorly defined term as you can get). There are clearly people who would be interested in knowing a list of people who are (were) HIV positive, and such a list provides a way to find them without having to know their name ahead of time. Are there people on this list who shouldn't be, either because the sourcing is not adequate, or because the fact that their HIV is unimportant to their biography (and thus shouldn't even be mentioned in their article)? Probably. Is this list a big BLP concern? Absolutely. But neither the fact that an article isn't perfect, nor the fact that it is potentially problematic, are grounds for deletion. Buddy431 (talk) 02:06, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- Comment. Some have voiced concerns over the subjects' privacy, which ignores the fact that 1) we only repeat information that is already publicly available in reliable sources; 2) their own article will state, if verified, that they are HIV-positive, and if not then they should not be in this list; 3) many, if not most of the people on this list publicly disclosed their HIV-positive status; 4) many of the people on this list would further find it more hurtful to have such information deleted than preserved, because they want the scope of the epidemic fully public and don't want their status made invisible just because some people are squeamish. So concerns for harm to article subjects, to the extent those are relevant at all, certainly do not favor deletion but instead can cut both ways.
But the point that undercuts every deletion rationale presented here is the acknowledgment that this is an appropriate fact to mention within individual bio articles. Some have even gone so far as to support a category for the inclusion of those articles. I think it's safe to say that if a notable individual's HIV-positive status is verified by reliable sources, then it would absolutely be of utmost relevance to their own biographical article. The nature of this disease is such that you can't have it without it seriously affecting your life. Yet somehow a list that cross-indexes articles based on that highly significant, shared fact magically transforms that information into something inappropriate. In other words, it's okay for separate Wikipedia articles to note that notable people are HIV-positive, but we should require people to use Google or sift through "what links here" if someone wants to find multiple Wikipedia articles on notable people who have this in common. If it is appropriate for an individual's article to state this as a verified fact, then it cannot be simultaneously inappropriate for a list to restate the same fact, unless the list is subject to some additional fault, for example if the list's information is trivial for most entries (obviously not true here) or there is no workable NPOV inclusion criteria (again not true here). postdlf (talk) 16:24, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- Well said, Postdlf. Erpert Who is this guy? | Wanna talk about it? 17:01, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- Agree, excellent comment. --Cyclopiatalk 17:12, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- I see a difference between "Oh, this medieval poet was born around Nottinghamshire, what other poets were connected to that area?" and "Ah, this actor contracted HIV, who else shared this fate?". Maybe I am lacking imagination; what (serious) endeavour might lead you to the latter question? Does an encyclopedia need to entertain this type of curiousness? I am not convinced it does. --Pgallert (talk) 17:28, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- Comparing and contrasting notable case studies of a highly publicized disease at the forefront of public health concerns worldwide for nearly thirty years, and a disease that has (whether we like it or not) been widely portrayed to the public by means of its notable victims. Comparing and contrasting who contracted it and how, whether and how they publicized their infection, how their HIV-positive status impacted public perception of them as an individual or perception of the disease, how they coped with the illness, how their health subsequently fared. And it would aid in article writing for those who want to research and flesh out the experience of each individual listed with HIV within their separate biographical articles. It's certainly no less serious than comparing how a place of origin impacted different people from there, how being an alumni of a particular educational institution influenced different people, or any other shared significant biographical fact that we list. postdlf (talk) 17:43, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)We have proof that at least one serious endeavour has used this very list as a reference here. But we can also imagine. Let's suppose I want to study the impact of HIV on the arts. Specifically, I may wonder how the experience of being HIV positive can have changed the perspective of artists and influenced their work. This sounds quite plausible to me -I wouldn't be surprised if such a study already exists. Now, the first thing I'd need to investigate this cultural issue is... a list of HIV-positive notable artists. --Cyclopiatalk 17:47, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- No we do not have proof. We have a reference in a book to the list, but we don't know why it is being used as areferenced. For all we know it could "Some people still insist on marginalizing women by extracting out the fact that they died of HIV/AIDS and list alongside criminals and sex workers."[1] John lilburne (talk) 19:13, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- I'm struggling to extract an objective principle from this comment. Is it that we shouldn't make lists based on facts that are also true of criminals or sex workers? In which case, this list (which includes Jeffrey Dahmer), this list (which includes Sunset Thomas), and this list (which includes Pretty Boy Floyd) should also be deleted. Or are you saying that HIV/AIDS is and should remain known as a disease defined by criminals and sex workers? In which case, you've helped to personally illustrate why this list is informative and useful. postdlf (talk) 15:28, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- It's probably safe to say that being HIV-positive has more impact in the present day than place of birth on most careers and the content of one's work, artistic or otherwise. Unless Magic Johnson retired from the NBA because he was born in Lansing, Michigan; David Wojnarowicz's controversial work is about Red Bank, New Jersey; Rock Hudson was the first major American celebrity to disclose that he was born in Winnetka, Illinois... postdlf (talk) 17:55, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- Comment. Can I ask that those who insist this article is well sourced to take a look at the accompanying article for Mason Wyler? It seems to be sourcing his HIV status to Twitter, and much of the other detail comes from a (NSFW) gay porn website. At least the list seems to be using a more reliable source for his HIV status. If an argument is made that the list is useful to find articles on HIV persons, one would hope that those articles would at least be properly sourced too. Actually, on a more general point, can I suggest that it might be better to look at the actual list content more when discussing it. Contrary to its title, it seems overwhelmingly composed of male US citizens, frequently from an arts/media background. Furthermore, there are relatively few on the list who are still alive, which rather negates the suggestion that it could provide inspiration for HIV-positive readers. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:41, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- What has that got to do with the fact that this list is well sourced? The source used for the list is this, definitely a reliable source. Garion96 (talk) 18:53, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- (ec) If there are inadequately sourced entries, fix it. That's not a reason for deletion, not where there are indisputably many entries that are well-sourced and the list as conceived is certainly sourceable. Your other comments (re: "provid[ing] inspiration") are...well, irrelevant to whether the list should be deleted. I'm not going to restate here the myriad reasons why publicization of notable HIV/AIDS victims has occurred, but it clearly has, and it clearly has had great educational and cultural value to a great many groups and individuals. That you personally don't get it is not a reason for deletion. Your observation on the list's demographics indicate either that it is incomplete as far as applicable Wikipedia subjects, in which case (again) fix it, or that those are simply the groups of notable people that were hardest hit (true to some extent; men more than women, certainly; and artists more than, say, physicists). postdlf (talk) 19:03, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- It is fixed now. The source on Mason Wyler was a lousy source. The source on this list however was a good source and is now added to the Mason Wyler article. Garion96 (talk) 19:04, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- Comment on the above "No policy or guideline-based deletion rationale" - it is not a collection of notable information. The fact that X or Y is HIV positive is not notable enough for a separate article (which, in essence, this is as there is also no encyclopaedic reason for having such a list, again for reasons of notability, these people don't congregate or associate any more than any other group of people. In fact they are not a defined group anyway.) The policy arguement, or at least mine, is WP:NOTABLE S.G.(GH) ping! 21:23, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- If you're saying that any list should be deleted for which you could not write an article about each entry's inclusion in that list (for example, don't list anyone in List of Georgetown University undergraduate alumni unless you could write a separate article about their schooling there?), that's thankfully not a recognized standard, nor a good one. On the other hand, for many of the entries there have been multiple reliable sources giving significant coverage specifically of their HIV-positive status, so even if that were a valid and consensus-supported standard, that would not even compel deletion of this list, only its pruning. postdlf (talk) 15:36, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- Delete "Usefulness" is a criterion for whether to keep a list. I can see the usefulness of keeping this information in biographies; if someone wishes to have a relationship with a person this would be relevant information which they would like to know. But under what circumstance would I want to find lots of people who are HIV-positive? To send them spam mail? Merely for prurient interest? I know I could collect this information from categories or Google, but there's no reason to make it easy. Has anyone here used this list for anything? What was their purpose in using the list? A list should have a purpose other than "We can make a list of this". Dingo1729 (talk) 00:11, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- You can find a probably real use case and sound theorical ones above. --Cyclopiatalk 01:14, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- On the same token, Dingo, it can be argued that you !voted "delete" because the list isn't useful to you. Erpert Who is this guy? | Wanna talk about it? 08:08, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- @Cyclopia: I think you would have to agree that your real world case is extremely flimsy when not even Wikipedia would use such a reference. I didn't see any sound theoretical uses unless you count "navigational aid" or "historic and educational use". Perhaps I missed something in all the chatter.
- (added later) Ah, now I see your suggestion of a study of the effect of HIV/AIDS on the arts. Yes that might make the list useful as a start point. Of course I couldn't rely on it and I'm not changing my vote because I still believe that there are too many negatives outweighing the positive.
- @Erpert: It's not so much that I don't have a use for it, more that I have suspicions of how it might be used. It could be used to target people on the list. I don't think we should facilitate that. Dingo1729 (talk) 23:16, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep for the policy and ethical reasons articulately expressed by postdlf and by Casliber. The information is publicly available, well sourced, and treated as relevant and important in reliable sources. There is no good reason why Wikipedia should make access to this information more difficult. --Arxiloxos (talk) 02:26, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- Exactly what information would that be? Its a mantra often repeated yet not one of the 'keepers' can actually point to a reason why the list is useful. I'll ask you directly why is this list useful? Now I can understand that a HIV/AIDS campaign group may want to keep a list of relevant people that contracted HIV as part of an awareness campaign and in accordance with wishes of those involved. But this list does not even do that, it has people on it that died 20 years ago. Most of the people on it the current at risk group won't have heard of, and inclusion on the list isn't approved of by the people involved. So again WHAT PURPOSE does this list have. John lilburne (talk) 14:58, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- This has been asked and answered ad nauseum. For a basic answer, it serves the same function as any other list in Category:Lists of people by medical condition. For a more detailed answer, you can reread any of my comments above. "I don't get it" is not a valid deletion argument; you're not advancing or developing your position by repeating that. postdlf (talk) 15:16, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Lilburne, you're being disingenous. Examples of legitimate use cases have been discussed above and there is even a real book that probably used this list as a reference. --Cyclopiatalk 15:21, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- Not in the least. The book references the list but we don't know why it does so. The subject of the book is on the marginalisation of women. This list is in itself a marginalisation, a separation of people from the rest of society based on a disease. I may be wrong but I suspect that the reference isn't because the text is praising this list as a good thing. John lilburne (talk) 23:50, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- This list is in itself a marginalisation, a separation of people from the rest of society based on a disease. : Oh dear. Is the war on lists the next battle of politically correctness? --Cyclopiatalk 00:43, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
- Lists where the notability of the thing listed is directly related to the list GOOD. Lists where the notability of the thing listed is subsidiary to the thing listed bad. So list of Nobel prize winners good. List of people who have spots on their back bad. This list falls into the later group. Yah know that a Google for "list of people with aids" brings up mirrors of this list, sites that say its a horrible and intrusive thing to do, and a site where people are adding names on the bases of "He added me, so I'm adding him". John lilburne (talk) 20:44, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you for your last WP:IDONTLIKEIT rant. (By the way, the answers.com link doesn't say anything of what you attribute to it, but even if it did, it wouldn't change anything -we don't delete content because it is considered unpleasant to some). --Cyclopiatalk 22:30, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
- Lists where the notability of the thing listed is directly related to the list GOOD. Lists where the notability of the thing listed is subsidiary to the thing listed bad. So list of Nobel prize winners good. List of people who have spots on their back bad. This list falls into the later group. Yah know that a Google for "list of people with aids" brings up mirrors of this list, sites that say its a horrible and intrusive thing to do, and a site where people are adding names on the bases of "He added me, so I'm adding him". John lilburne (talk) 20:44, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
- This list is in itself a marginalisation, a separation of people from the rest of society based on a disease. : Oh dear. Is the war on lists the next battle of politically correctness? --Cyclopiatalk 00:43, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
- Not in the least. The book references the list but we don't know why it does so. The subject of the book is on the marginalisation of women. This list is in itself a marginalisation, a separation of people from the rest of society based on a disease. I may be wrong but I suspect that the reference isn't because the text is praising this list as a good thing. John lilburne (talk) 23:50, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Lilburne, you're being disingenous. Examples of legitimate use cases have been discussed above and there is even a real book that probably used this list as a reference. --Cyclopiatalk 15:21, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- This has been asked and answered ad nauseum. For a basic answer, it serves the same function as any other list in Category:Lists of people by medical condition. For a more detailed answer, you can reread any of my comments above. "I don't get it" is not a valid deletion argument; you're not advancing or developing your position by repeating that. postdlf (talk) 15:16, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- Exactly what information would that be? Its a mantra often repeated yet not one of the 'keepers' can actually point to a reason why the list is useful. I'll ask you directly why is this list useful? Now I can understand that a HIV/AIDS campaign group may want to keep a list of relevant people that contracted HIV as part of an awareness campaign and in accordance with wishes of those involved. But this list does not even do that, it has people on it that died 20 years ago. Most of the people on it the current at risk group won't have heard of, and inclusion on the list isn't approved of by the people involved. So again WHAT PURPOSE does this list have. John lilburne (talk) 14:58, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep Well composed list with references, however, entries that don't have articles but have references should be allowed to be added to list.--XLR8TION (talk) 19:55, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep I cannot find any of our policies that this article contravenes. I don't like it and it makes me feel like a voyeur – but this is my problem. Some of the sources are questionable, but this again has nothing to do with a deletion discussion. I saw a question above regarding what purpose the list serves, but again having a purpose is not a criteria for inclusion. From now on I will watch this page, I think this is all that is needed from responsible editors. Graham Colm (talk) 13:49, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
- I wish more editors would prioritise their ethical concerns above Wikipedia guidelines. That way we might end up having more ethically responsible guidelines. --JN466 23:12, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not totally sure what you're getting at or whether this is a positive or negative remark on Graham's comment. But the implication that either some editors aren't ethical in their behaviour or don't regard ethical concerns as important (if that is what you are saying) isn't fair. This information is in the public domain already and I haven't seen anyone raise any concerns about the information being noted in the person's bio article. For what it's worth, if a person indicated (either to Wikipedia or otherwise) that they wished the information wasn't in the public domain, then I for one would be happy to remove them from this list, though I suspect some editors would resist removing it from their bio. I completely fail to see why making a list, and one that is better sourced that the average bio, raises further ethical concerns. If there were genuine ethical concerns, we'd be disabling "what links here" from the HIV article. Colin°Talk 08:20, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
- I wish more editors would prioritise their ethical concerns above Wikipedia guidelines. That way we might end up having more ethically responsible guidelines. --JN466 23:12, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep. I agree with Postdlf's rebuttal of the "privacy" argument of 16:24, 7 January 2011. The well-annotated list is clearly relevant to the coverage of HIV, because many of the entries on the list represent examples who gave HIV infection a face. Sjakkalle (Check!) 14:29, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
| Closing discussion by sockpuppet of blocked user. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 15:51, 10 January 2011 (UTC) |
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| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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- Delete, per AndyTheGrump. A Macedonian, a Greek. (talk) 07:44, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
- Keep per many of the arguements above, this list is no different than lists of people with other conditions. Just because they have HIV doesn't mean they are a special case compared to other conditions. -DJSasso (talk) 15:06, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
- Which other lists are you referring to? — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 15:16, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
- This entire category for example, there are more than that as well I believe but this category illustrates my point enough. -DJSasso (talk) 15:25, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
- Which other lists are you referring to? — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 15:16, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.