Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Irish Road Haulage Association

Irish Road Haulage Association

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Non-notable lobbying/representative organisation. WP:NORG and WP:SIGCOV are not met. This article was created in 2005 (by a single-purpose contributor) with short and clearly promotional text. It was expanded in 2006 (again by a single-purpose contributor) with more quasi-promotional content taken verbatim from the "about" page of the org's own website. While I've removed much of this promotional/copyvio content, I cannot find sufficient independent/reliable/verifiable sources to replace it. Or to expand this sub-stub beyond what we have. Almost all of the coverage I can find is of lobbying statements BY the association. Which includes reports like this or this or this. Being coverage of statements BY the association and not ABOUT the association. And not meeting a WP:SIRS check. In terms of coverage ABOUT the association, all I can find is stuff like this in industry outlets. Or this in local papers. None of which amounts to in-depth/significant/independent coverage. I cannot, for example, find any sources (primary or otherwise) to establish how many members the association has, or (non-primary) sources to support the text about its branches, etc. If there are insufficient independent sources to establish even basic facts (or allow for expansion beyond short text we've had for nearly 20 years) how is WP:ORGDEPTH is met? Guliolopez (talk) 15:11, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ireland-related deletion discussions. Guliolopez (talk) 15:17, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions. Guliolopez (talk) 15:17, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions. Guliolopez (talk) 15:17, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment/Leaning towards Keep - I would be wary/reticent to delete this article rather than expand it. Verona Murphy was President of IRHA for a significant amount of time, and holding that position helped launch her political career. When Murphy became a TD, that expanded the media's coverage of the IRHA and the role became considered a bit more notable, similar to how a trade union might become highlighted if someone associated with them gained political office.

You've raised the concern that

Almost all of the coverage I can find is of lobbying statements BY the association

however I don't know that this is anything other than what we would expect. Secondary, reliable sources such as national newspapers would only ever cover an organisation such as this when it is making statements of that nature. The same would go for a trade union or farmer's representative body. I would lean towards those reports, by very reliable sources such as the Irish Times and RTÉ News, as examples of SIGCOV. We wouldn't expect national news sources to do a simple puff piece profile of any organisation where they simply inform us of their purpose and membership number. I think reliable sources covering small trade unions, for example, would not anyways dwell on their membership numbers, but nonetheless those unions would hold some significant.

Another concern raised is that the article was likely promotional in origin, and has not been edited regularly. While both of these are unfortunate, the article starting as promotion but then being fixed is not anymore automatically disqualifying than if Coca Cola's article had first been created by someone doing promotional style writing. While's is bad practice, ultimately Coca Cola would be notable and kept as an article regards of how the article originally started. As far as the lack of regular editing goes; one can reasonably argue and point out that this is typical of less prominent Irish articles. With Ireland's small population, and small body of regular Wiki editors, it is not always the case that lack of editing reflects lack of notability.

I just want to note at this point I'm playing Devil Advocate here rather than having any significant personal interest in the article. I would be interested in seeing the perspectives of other editors on this matter. CeltBrowne (talk) 09:47, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. With thanks for your input (and likely coming as no surprise) I can't personally agree. That Verona Murphy was previously president of the organisation, to my mind, falls under WP:NOTINHERITED (that the organisation had a notable president doesn't make the organisation notable). That newspapers only really cover statements by the organisation (rather than the organisation itself) is exactly the type of concern covered in WP:SIRS and WP:ORGDEPTH (that the article cannot be expanded, because there are no independent/reliable sources to do so, is a core tenet of the guideline). Also, and with apologies if it wasn't clear in my nomination, that the original article was promotional (or that it was created by a possibly COI/SPA contributor) wasn't offered as part of my deletion rationale. Just as background. (I have personally "rescued" more than a few promotional (but otherwise notable) org articles as part of WP:BEFORE and AfD efforts. I do not see how that can be done here however. As there is nothing to rely upon to "rescue" this permastub. If you're aware of reliable/independent sources that can help expand it, then please do add them.) Guliolopez (talk) 13:14, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - well, a weak delete. There's lots of stuff out there on this industry group in a WP:BEFORE search. I didn't see anything which was a crystal clear WP:NORG pass, and it's likely our strictest guideline, so I can't vote for a keep. However, if someone wants to improve this - currently it's a stub with only one source that isn't the org's website - and can find NCORP sources, I have no problem if this is HEYed or re-written. SportingFlyer T·C 06:02, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. In doing a WP:BEFORE search there are a good number of books with coverage of this organization.4meter4 (talk) 18:11, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Can you confirm what books cover or mention the association. I ask because, in my own WP:BEFORE, I could find no books about (or even partially about) the org. The only book results I could find were in The Law of Companies (Courtney, 2017), Contract Law for Students (Forde, 2021) and Commercial Law (Forde, 2021). Each of which are legal text books which afford a few lines to the same legal case. McMahon v Irish Road Haulage Association. Which involved a precedential ruling that "where terms are implied into an organisation's constitution, they are also implied into a statutory contract". But these mentions do not add-up to SIGCOV for the organisation itself. Or allow for the article to be materially expanded. Certainly I couldn't materially expand the article based on these mentions. The only other results, from my own book search, were in directory-style works (like Ireland, a Directory; 2003). Are there any book sources which discuss the org in any depth? (Its history, foundation, operation, etc?) I certainly couldn't find any.... Guliolopez (talk) 10:04, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 00:19, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]