Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/BLIT (short story)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Without precluding reorganization or a merge proposal. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 15:20, 3 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

BLIT (short story)

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Only ref is written by author, no WP:GNG points there. Redirect is fine too. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:58, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:58, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Science fiction and fantasy-related deletion discussions. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:58, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. The author is very notable, as is much of his work. I can't, however, find any real evidence that this one short story is notable in its own right. The article discusses its influence, but this appears to be OR with no citations to independent reliable sources. Even if the currently identified points of influence could be cited, it wouldn't added up to meeting the GNG. QuiteUnusual (talk) 07:51, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. –LaundryPizza03 (d c̄) 08:28, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to the author, David Langford. ~ GB fan 10:08, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep per new info below. ~ GB fan 11:27, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to David Langford Java Hurricane 10:10, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, this is a prominent story in the genre, and has improved since this nom. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:56, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it now has twice as many refs by the author. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:02, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to David Langford - Can't find enough in-depth coverage about the story to show it passes WP:GNG. I agree with Randy Kryn that it should be notable, but absent independent sourcing, can't !vote for anything other than redirect. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 17:16, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The BLIT story seems frustratingly difficult to find references for, but at least one of the follow up stories has won a Hugo, which should probably count for something. Possibly this article would be better off pivoting to cover the basilisk stories as a whole? Artw (talk) 19:33, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Basilisks has a section in the author's article, also not well-sourced. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 22:33, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed the tag on the article. Is that section the particular area of concern? Artw (talk) 04:23, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A little, more the "Non-fiction and editorial work" section. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:59, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. User:ReaderofthePack, anything you could do to save this? There is a reception section, but unreferenced... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:23, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'll see what I can do. Offhand if I can't find enough for this to have its own article, I'd support this turning into an article for the series since there's most likely enough to justify a series page. ReaderofthePack(formerly Tokyogirl79) (｡◕‿◕｡) 14:36, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to see this saved, but what I am seeing is not much. Landford himself discusses the story for a few paragraphs in his book here, but obviously, this fails the requirement for the coverage to be independent. He does note that Kevin McLeod used the term (in some commentary?) "the Langford hack", but this term is not used elsewhere. The other examples (Stross, Egan) are fascinating, but it's either OR is not independent :( A passing sentence in a footnote in [1]: "The Basilisk first appears as a science fiction concept in the short story “BLIT” where it is a “Berryman Logical Image Technique,” an image encoded with “Gödelian “spoilers,” implicit programs which the human equipment cannot safely run” (Langford 1988). And that's all I found in my GScholar/GBooks query :( Unless we get something else, I'd have to say 'redirect', as the best WP:ATD. PS. The idea of brain hacking is an interesting sf trope and may deserve its own article (if the sources come through), and then this story could be mentioned in such an article. In fact, half of the reception in the currently discussed article is really an ORish discussion of this concept, which is being claimed (without a source) to have originated with this story. PPS. I see [2] mentions the story in another passing sentence; sadly I can't access the source (not in Z-library). But such a passing mention, failing WP:SIGCOV, doesn't help us much here - although this snippet does suggest we may be able to mention the story in an article about "brain hacking" or such. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:27, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I've found enough to where I think it could probably pass notability guidelines now, but to be honest... a page for the BLIT series as a whole would be best. The story is mentioned, but there's also mention of the stories and concept as a whole to where I think it would be more informative and effective as a series page. The term "basilisk" could also be covered there as well. ReaderofthePack(formerly Tokyogirl79) (｡◕‿◕｡) 15:53, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep due to sources I and ReaderofthePack found. Plus the influences on other writers, which are mostly primary sourced, but certainly not a hoax. PS. I found an independent source: SF Encyclopedia: "A similar rationalization of mind-destroying fractal images in "Blit" (September/October 1988 Interzone) and related stories by David Langford proved mildly influential in sf circles, and is explicitly acknowledged in Greg Egan's Permutation City (1994), Ken MacLeod's The Cassini Division (1998) and Charles Stross's Accelerando (fixup 2005) and Laundry series." --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:16, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep per Piotrus. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:52, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Gråbergs Gråa Sång, Piotrus, Onel5969, QuiteUnusual, and Randy Kryn: Would everyone be OK with the idea of my turning this into a page for the series of stories? I think that there's notability here, but it seems to be a kind of group notability so to speak and would do well as a page that expanded on the four short stories that made up the series. The main thing I'm running into is what to name such a series page. It could just be "basilisk" if we use the subheader in the main page or we could just expand the sequels section and include pertinent information and leave the short story page as the main entry. I wanted some sort of consensus before I really do any live work. ReaderofthePack(formerly Tokyogirl79) (｡◕‿◕｡) 18:52, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The main issue with calling it "Basilisk" is that this would sort of turn into a page for the term rather than the series per se. I'm leaning towards just expanding the current article with information about the term and the other pages. It'd be the far easier option. ReaderofthePack(formerly Tokyogirl79) (｡◕‿◕｡) 18:57, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@ReaderofthePack I think the story is borderline notable, per my week keep above, so I would keep it as it is (focus-wise). As for the series, what exact series do you refer to? I note that per the SF Encyclopedia source I found (link above), the concept of 'basilisk' in SF ('brain hack', etc.) may have stand-alone notability (as it exists in SF encyclopedia as a stand-alone entry, and perhaps more coverage could be found). Is this the series you mean? Or did Langford wrote a 'BLIT' series or sorts? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:58, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Theres several sequels, including one Hugo winner. Artw (talk) 02:07, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Makes sense to me QuiteUnusual (talk) 08:34, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep as is as a notable story and summarize the related works, per ReaderofthePack. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:11, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep, though thats on the basis of some sourcing that is not as strong as I would like it and a Hugo winning sequel. Renaming it and organising it to be an article on the series of stories or merging to the basilisk section of the Langford page also acceptable. Artw (talk) 14:22, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and reorganize per the above. Jclemens (talk) 03:59, 31 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Merge with David Langford. Although sources aren't the strongest, the work is culturally relevant for the introduction of the basilisk to the genre and the subsequent influence the image has had on other works. Heartmusic678 (talk) 12:11, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.