User:Sticks66/talk archive

Dual Rugby International- Anlezark

Arthur Anlezark - The 2005 Annual elsewhere calls him Ernest, another book I have says A.E.Anlezark, so I guess Arthur Ernest was his name. From Lismore, played on the 1909 Roo Tour. No first grade games in the NSWRL. --Angry mob mulls options 14:45, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Cyril Abotomey

Hey mate, the correct time period was 1923-34.The article is totally factual.

If you own any Rugby league encyclopedia's look it up. I would guess he was (more than likely) a bit-time player and spent a lot of time in lower grades or he was very injury prone. Tiburon 02:43, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Darrel Chapman

This fine footballer, teacher and academic who died tragically early deserves an article. I can write it but do you have any info? I have approached SCU where he was working when he died for additional info. Thanks Albatross2147 03:03, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

3 Rabbitohs

Hey Satts Greg Hawick, Chick Cowie and George Treweek figure in the 04 Dream Team but have no linked articles. I'm thinking this is a gap on the main club article. Do you have any inf on these players & I'll start a stub on each.Sticks66 06:21, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Sticks66, some brief info on these players:

Greg Hawick

Debuted with Souths in 1950 as a lock. Switched to the backline playing halfback and centre. Played with Souths from 1950 to 1956, winning 5 premierships. 84 games, 19 tries, 62 goals for 181 points. Toured with Kangaroos to Great Britain in 1952-53 playing 2 tests, another 16 tour matches and scoring 8 tries. Toured New Zealand with Kangaroos in 1953 playing 2 tests, 6 other tour matches and scoring 2 tries and kicking 3 goals. All together played 6 tests for Australia and 8 games for NSW.

Les "Chicka" Cowie

Lock forward. Won 5 premierships with Souths. 178 games for Souths between 1947 to 1957. Also played 10 games for NSW and 6 Tests for Australia. Toured with 1948-49 Kangaroos team playing 20 matches and scoring 10 tries. Toured New Zealand with Kangaroos in 1949 playing 2 tests, 6 other tour matches and scoring 5 tries.

George Treweek

Second row forward. Won 6 premierships with Souths. Captained Souths in 1931 and 1932 premiership victories. 120 games for Souths between 1926 to 1934. Also played 7 games for NSW and 18 Tests for Australia. 2006 ARL Hall of Fame inductee. Rated as one of the finest second row forwards ever to play for Australia. Test debut against touring Great Britain team in 1928. Toured Britain with 1929-30 Kangaroo team playing in 4 tests and 22 games in all and scoring 6 tries. Sattlersjaw 10:14, 25 March 2007 (UTC) Hey Satts, thanks for the info but then you went & beat me to it. Well done. I've linked all Dream Team players to that Article on the Souths Website. It seems that Bob Grant also doesn't have an article. Do you have anything on him ? Sticks66 12:54, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I've fixed the link and put some info up for Bob Grant.

Sattlersjaw 03:33, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Paul Gibson

As you may know the new NSW Minister for Sport has in the past claimed that he played grade for Manly Warringah in the 60s. Have you any information on this? Thanks

(BTW I am still getting info on Darrel C.) Albatross2147 04:43, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

WPRL Article Improvement Drive

Hey I've noticed you're a regular on rugby league articles, particulary NRL ones. I need your advice on something I'm thinking of starting up on the project. Many WikiProjects have Article Improvement Drives which have different levels of success. I'm thinking of starting one up for this one too, but instead of voting on an article I would rather strive to improve one NRL club every fortnight and bring it up very close to featured status. Now it seems as though there'd be a lot of work involved, but there are also a lot of club fans out there who'd probably be willing to participate. Basically there are 30 weeks in the NRL season and there are 15 club pages that are not yet featured. I propose that we all have a schedule to work on one new article every second round, in alphabetical order. By the end of the season hopefully we will have 15 near-complete, if not complete articles. My only concern at this stage is the dedication of editors to help out other team pages that they are not interested in. Basically in order to get the support of editors like these, we need a few leaders in the project. If you are willing to dedicate a bit of your time every week into this and if you have any further suggestions, could you let me know at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rugby league/Article improvement drive? Thanks, --05:57, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

At this stage I'm thinking we'll do articles only for existing clubs. So yes, South Sydney will be the first page we'll tidy up (and to be honest I've already done a bit of work on it myself). I guess that will leave the Gold Coast Titans last, which makes sense, because then we'll at least have a proper history section to work on. Looking forward to seeing how this goes. Cheers, --mdmanser 14:53, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Headings

I have just looked over your article Paul Sait, which looks quite well done for a fairly seasoned player with an excellent record. Obviously it could be improved by a photo of him taken during his career, but that might be hard to get hold of legitimately. Please reveiew WP:MSH, in particular section heading should use the same capitalisation as article headings: first word and proper nouns are upper case, everything else lower case. Garrie 22:42, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

(from my talk page)

Thx for the comments. I'm not big on photos, seems to me that editors who add them then spend time & energy justifying legit use & defending them from deletion. I'll leave that to others. My out-take from reading WP:MSH and your comments is that my section header "Club Career" should be "Club career". Are you saying more than that ? Sticks66 04:03, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree, arguing the toss over photos is best left to others. Some of us know people with their own match photos though and anything you took yourself is yours to contribute if you so wish. Yes, "Club career" and similar for other section headings with more than one word. Some people want the section, paragraph and line number others want plain english... ;) You seemed to have been consistent across several articles which is why I came here rather than just fixing it. But having said that, I can't find anywhere else I can fault your work! (I'm sure I looked first though...) So please, let me take my foot out of my mouth and appologise. Garrie 04:50, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

If you've been back to them and fixed the capitalisation, well done. It was a minor point but it's the minor points that make all the biographical articles belong in the same family (same for Rugby League articles). Garrie 23:12, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

RE: Souths FA

Well I have to say it's looking fantastic. Sattlersjaw has done a great job throwing those citations into the article - that part should pass the FA department. But if I had to make any comments it would be that the Culture and Statistics section need to get rid of the subheadings like that. I would think split the Culture section and make the Statistics section into mroe consolidated paragraphs like you see at Sydney Roosters. Small things like that cause a big uproar at WP:FAC. I wouldn't nominate it just yet because Sattlersjaw looks busy updating a few things, but it looks presentable. One more thing - we need an independent copyeditor to get the grammar and prose up to top standards - the guy who helped me on the Roosters article may accept another invitation if I ask him to help out. Keep in touch with me and Sattlersjaw as things progress. All the best. --mdmanser 13:18, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Season articles

They're not really my articles. Someone called CEP78 and I have been working on them. The same situation exists for the 1911 grand final. When I came across it I just put merger requests on both articles. If no one else does it I'll do it myself one of these days I guess. Might be an idea to just request mergers anytime you find the grand final on a separate page, so when poeple come across them they can look at merging the two. Or you could be bold and do it yourself. I really think they belong in the season pages. I'd like to see every season page include grand final details eventually.--Jeff79 17:53, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Before doing it I thought I'd check with you first, but I reckon the advertising section could be a sub-heading under "Pre-season" or "Season Summary" or something. Seems a little out of place as a main section coming after the Grand Final section in my opinion.--Jeff79 19:34, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

HoodooGurus

That's a line I think I stole directly from the Hoodoo Gurus aricle and I think it was referring to the song's own original video.--Jeff79 18:22, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Logo deletion

I think I already gave it a try. I stuck a fair use rationale on there. Not a very good one mind you, but I was hoping it'd be enough to stave off the deletion.--Jeff79 06:09, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Team line ups in Grand Final section of Season Articles

No, you aren't imagining it. I tried another screen and the default table text is definitely larger than the default text. I've changed it to 90% - see what you think now. The table itself looks a bit 'skinny'. sandbox. I'll have to have a play with getting the new subject header under the table. Florrie 06:56, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

And another five lines takes the header under the table. Who'd have thought it would be so easy? I changed the table columns to 130,80,130 and that's about the narrowest you can go and still allow room for longish names. It was 150,80,150px. Is the page width and white space affected by screen size? I'm running on a 19" screen and it looks fine. Florrie 11:52, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

The table could be narrower again if we used the standard position abbreviations. FB, WG, CE etc. Florrie 11:58, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Go for it. Florrie 14:30, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Raiders GF Players

The players you wanted: Brent Todd, Matthew Wood, Paul Martin and Gary Coyne (M Coyne is probably Mark Coyne, who never played for the Raiders). If you want any other players, this site is helpful: [1] Damanmundine1 13:11, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Position descriptor in GF team line-ups

Very sorry, my isp has been down for two days - yes, I do agree with the links. I thought we had discussed it before somewhere but I may have imagined it. Florrie 13:14, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

John Quayle

Nothing about him that I can find in the books I can reference. This link provides some scoring history for him from 1971 onwards: http://www.ozrugbyleague.com/statistics/scorers/players/John_Quayle.html Not sure what his stats were prior to this date. Maybe some Parra or Roosters supporters on Wiki can help - try CumberlandsAshes81 or Mdmanser as they may have more on him.

I have a copy of the 'Encyclopedia of Rugby League Players', this will have all of John Quayle's stats. I will try and add them soon.Grizzlybear82 02:57, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

1990 Panthers

Don't remember that far back. J Vitanza would be Joe. As for the others, I'll ask on the Panthers message board.Florrie 13:52, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

The thread is at League Unlimited if you want to keep an eye on it for responses - which might be quickest as I won't be on-line again until tomorrow night. http://forums.leagueunlimited.com/showthread.php?p=3508923#post3508923 Florrie 13:57, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

David Greene, Barry Walker, Paul Clarke and Joe Vitanza.

And Paul Smith!Florrie 10:14, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Hunterlink

Go to this one http://www2.hunterlink.net.au/~maajjs/ From there you can go to various places, click on Australia (up top) Go down to section heading "Australian Competitions" were there is adequate informationon all season. Extremely detailed 1995-1998. Go to New South Wales Competitions for 1908-1993 sections of NSWRL competitons. Bit of info on Queensland Comps too. There is also information on other countries from that main page above. Unfortenely it only goes to 1998. Hope that helps. SpecialWindler talk 10:09, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Same time 1979

Yes, sorry! But George was so pleased that he could actually remember most of the team! Is there a way to flag lists/tables that are being worked on? I know I was working on one several weeks ago and came back to find someone had completed it. They can take a real effort to research and it seems such a waste to double-up. Maybe an edit comment or text comment in the 'yet to start' section? What do you think? Florrie 12:30, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Souths GFs 1967 to 1970

Hi Sticks, I will have a look at expanding the grand final match reports when I get some time.Sattlersjaw 02:07, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Grand Finals

I have given you the teams for the 1940-1953 grand finals. (except a few) Its all from the same source which I have linked. It is on you work space page, all the teams. Hope it helps, Please reply. SpecialWindler talk 23:18, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Manly Sea Eagles

Sticks, I appreciate your input, but please note that I've added the under-construction label to the page until I pick through my input. With the addition of the History page, I am summarising the Main page so many of your current suggestions will be mute points, once the new detail is entered. Feel free to have a crack through the new History page and make the relevant changes there as I will not be getting involved in the changes there.

Re: Finals sections of Season Articles

Yeah I think I may even insert tables into the sections from now, and start to replace brackets with them in the future perhaps. In that regard then crowds and referee names will be present in all articles hopefully. mdmanser 11:46, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Re:Club logos

To be honest, I've never worked out why logos should even have a fair use rationale. I mean they're only used on one page and it's pretty obvious why they are on there. It seems that all this fair use reasoning is a waste of time, but unfortunately there are those out there who become a little too pedantic about the whole issue, and end up deleting images which they could just write fair use reasoning in half the time it takes for them to delete it. As for adding rationales - I suggest copying the text from here or here. That should do the trick in most cases. Cheers, mdmanser 11:25, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

My edits

Hi Sticks, if the article didn't actually get reverted, it must be a problem with VandalProof, which I was using. I'll keep an eye on it - thanks for letting me know! Kat, Queen of Typos 03:34, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Coaches category

No, I don't know, sorry. I had a look through the various WP pages on categorisation but couldn't find anything helpful. You don't want to split the article into individuals rather than family? ~ Florrie • talk • 13:17, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Sadly the only people I 'know' on wikipedia are the RL lot! I've seen this used about the place, the Template:Helpme which is {{helpme}} - supposedly it is a very quick way of asking for assistance. Just put it on your talk page with the question. Wouldn't hurt to try. ~ Florrie • talk • 04:14, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I was following the discussion. Good to see there is a solution of sorts! ~ Florrie • talk • 08:42, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Article is about a number of people but can I categorise just one of them ?

{{helpme}} I write about old footballers. In two cases I have created articles about notable footballing brothers Burge Family & McLean Family (rugby footballers) . Their cause celebre lies in the family connection since at least for the lesser famous brothers they wouldn't have their own articles except in the context of their family's achievements. My question is how do I categorise just one of them as something ( eg Frank Burge was a noted [[Category:Rugby league coaches|Burge, Frank]] but his brothers weren't} without the name that appears in the category listing being the broader family article name. It ought be the individual's name. -Sticks66 10:34, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

With the current software, sections can't be categorised, only entire articles. It's usual to categories the whole article even if the category only applies to one section. --ais523 11:36, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you can categorise a redirect; place the category on the same line as the #REDIRECT line, after the link to the target article. It's probably best to categorise both the article and the redirect in this situation. --ais523 12:07, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Barnstar

Thank you, Sticks. And it reminds me that I should get back to SOO instead of trawling through category lists! Cheers! ~ Florrie • talk • 15:23, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

The trenches

Just saw your trench caption! I shall return to SoO players asap - I wandered off on other RL entries. Fabulous work on the origin series, btw! ~ Florrie • talk • 13:30, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Bare bones

I'm happy to add the bare bones and leave you to flesh it out later on. Can't wait to see 1983 done - so many of the new pages recently have been players in the '83 series! ~ Florrie • talk • 09:57, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Ted Goodwin

I discovered today that Ted Goodwin didn't have an article, which was a bit of worry, so I've quickly done up a stub. I know there's plenty to say about Ted, but I can't find a lot of factual reference. Do you have anything? ~ Florrie • talk • 13:16, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

David Waite

Sort of a St. George related request...do you have any detail on David Waite's playing career? I've got the basic stuff but I'd like to know what happened when he left the Sharks in '75 and moved to the Magpies in '78. I know he eventually retired in '78 due to injury but don't what it involved or if the two hyear absence was related to injury. Also, from my own memory, Waite was co-coach with Andrew Farrar in '99-'00 but I can't find anything really definitive on this. Was it an equal role? Or was Waite more head coach than Farrar? [2] The History of St. George fansite mentions them equally, but I wondered if it was in print somewhere. I've added an infobox to David Waite and attempted to expand the text but I know it could be much better/more detailed. Thanks in advance. ~ Florrie • talk • 03:29, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Cheers! I've just found a 1992 edition of Malcolm Andrew's ABC of Rugby League on my bookshelf but it doesn't have anything on David Waite. Nifty find though for other stuff. Enjoy your travels. ~ Florrie • talk • 01:59, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Not quite finished

Joel checked back as I found the numbers didn't balance and we discovered another three players to do! I'll probably do them today. Slightly related - I was dismabigging NSW (the state) and NSW (the team) yesterday and found on a few occasions that the state was linked to instead of the team. With the pre-1980 NSW reps, I chose to link to the team page as we will eventually have a history of the state team as well as Origin, won't we (as with the Queensland team page)? Or should they go to Rugby League State of Origin for the history there, or New South Wales Rugby League?

PS Got myself the 2007 Whiticker and Hudson Players Encyclopedia, so won't have to ask so many player questions, I hope!~ Florrie • talk • 23:57, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Help regarding template

Although I know enough about them to get by, I'm not really a template expert. Talk to User:Grcampbell, he has worked on that template and knows what he is doing. Any problems let me know! - Shudde ^talk 19:00, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure about Rugby league in New Zealand because they just scrapped the Bartercard Cup last year, which was the premier domestic competition here. I don't know if state/rep is best, but if you find a situation where it doesn't work you can always change it. If you look at the rugby union part of the template you'll see there are lots of different possible fields to encompass all the different types of teams, such as amateur club, provincial, professional club and Super 14 franchises. It can get quite complicated. Fortunately for rugby league there are really only two professional competitions which should simplify it. - Shudde ^talk 04:08, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

St. Joseph's College, Hunters Hill

Hey Sticks66, I didn't think it looked much like Joey's either, but the State Library of New South Wales has "St Joseph's School, Hunters Hill" in the image description (Here) so I assumed they knew better than me. Feel free to remove the image from the article if you are certain it's not of Joey's. Cheers! Loopla (talk) 05:24, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Lord Ted

Looks much better! I don't recall what official role he had with the Western Reds, but I know he was doing some regional promotional/education work with them in, I think, 1996 as he ran a flag rugby session at the local primary school. If I can find a source I'll add it to the article. •Florrie•leave a note• 08:55, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Or not. [3] About half-way down the page. Apparently he was sacked by the WARL for giving a team of under-17's a beer each after the game! I'll follow it up and see if there is anything at highbeam. Poor Ted. •Florrie•leave a note• 09:03, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I can't find one news report verifying it, so I guess it will have to slide. I don't suppose you can mention his contributions to WA rugby league without mentioning his leaving? •Florrie•leave a note• 09:37, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Signature box

At the minute it has to be copied and pasted for every message I leave, I've not yet found a shortcut that does it straight away.Londo06 17:43, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Just pop it in your signature box in your preferences and it's automatic. Here you are - A St George version! Sticks66 •Florrie•leave a note• 02:03, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Hang on, I'll have a look. •Florrie•leave a note• 12:06, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

You've left off the closing span and small. Here's the nowiki - Copy and paste it -

<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Sticks66|<font style="color:black;background:white;">'''Sticks'''</font>]][[User talk:Sticks66|<font style="color:white;background:red;">'''66'''</font>]]</span></small>

And yes, tick Raw signature. See how that goes. •Florrie•[[User talk:Florrieffleave a note]]• 12:10, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

This is me trying your sig...Sticks66 12:12, 2 February 2008 (UTC) (Florrie) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Florrie (talk • contribs) - that worked. To experiment with the colours just set up a sandbox page and switch the 'color' and 'background' names to the colours you want. There's an article on Web colors. •Florrie•leave a note• 12:19, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Re: Good to see

Ah, I'd love to take credit for 1934, but you'll have to give it to 124.183.246.155 for writing the thing. I'm more than happy to write and copyedit reports, but I haven't got too many hard-copy resources to refer to. I'll have a look at the list you referred me to and I'll see what else I can do. Cheers, mdmanser (talk) 09:25, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

100 Years

Lovely set of books. Add it to your birthday wish-list. Not a huge amount in the way of facts and figures but there's season records, grand final team lists, international scores/scorers, state of origin/interstate etc. Lots of anecdotal material from reports of the day. There's around 8 pages per year for 1967-2007 and 4 to 6 pages a year for 1908-1966. Great pics, too. •Florrie•leave a note• 11:28, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Jack Lynch (rugby league)

Sticks, just to clarify something important with you - it wasn't until at least that 1960s that clubs adopted the team nicknames/mascots that they still use today. If anything, Eastern Suburbs had the nickname of the "Tricolours", not the Roosters. This isn't a major issue as the vast majority of readers won't even know this fact and will perhaps have an even greater understanding of the subject if we use current nicknames for the early teams, but to be factually accurate I think we should stick with original clubs names until at least the 1970s or 1980s just to play it safe. This may even be a topic worth putting up for discussion on the project talk page. Anyway, thanks very much for the other good edits on the Jack Lynch article. mdmanser (talk) 12:59, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Re: Thanks for the fix

All fixed up now. You just had to insert the "Wikipedia" bit at the front. mdmanser (talk) 10:43, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

RU infobox

I have hopefully fixed the request you made on my talk page, (I haven't got time to check because WP job quence is high) if it hasn't, request me and I'll look into more thouroghly again.  The Windler talk  13:05, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Team of the Century

Sorry I've been so woeful on the Rugby League front. Yes, I like the sandbox - I've fixed up Reg and Mal's Team of the Century article and I may as well redlink to the Team of the Century page. What are you going to call it? Australian Rugby League's Team of the Century in line with the 100 greatest article? •Florrie•leave a note• 12:36, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I've just got the Fox Sports link so far. Haven't checked the NRL.com pages to see if it has been updated there yet. But a news source is good for notability. The para for Mal (combined 100 greatest and team of) is

In February 2008, Meninga was named in the list of Australia's 100 Greatest Players (1908-2007) which was commissioned by the NRL and ARL to celebrate the code's centenary year in Australia. Meninga went on to be named as one of the centres, along with Reg Gasnier, in Australian rugby league's Team of the Century. Announced on 17 April, 2008, the team is the panels' majority choice for each of the thirteen starting positions and four interchange players.

How does that read? •Florrie•leave a note• 14:19, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Hardman Herb Narvo

Yeah definitely. I especially like these guys that played for Australia AND went to war and stuff too. Narvo was a boxing champion was well! Awesome. They don't build 'em like that anymore. Yeah, I think now with the centenary is a good time to go about working on the history of rugby league. There are some good resources available and I've been trying to capitalise. Check out the rugby league exhibit at the National Museum of Australia website if you haven't already. I think I put a link on the 2008 NRL season page. Some great pictures. Old ones too. Dunno if we can just go and steal em coz they're old. I heard maybe we can.--Jeff79 (talk) 01:37, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Brian Hambly

On 4 May, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Brian Hambly, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--BorgQueen (talk) 06:20, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

5/4 DYK

On 4 May, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Dan Dempsey, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--Bedford 20:19, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Re: He came, he went

Totally agree. I take hope from the fact this happened once before (I'm pretty sure it did) and he was editing again within a month or so. The project already feels a little rudderless! •Florrie•leave a note• 05:52, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, if Super league or the French Rugby Union offer me more... •Florrie•leave a note• 02:04, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Image tagging for Image:1933 Thicknesse w480.jpg

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Great to see that one of the 1st photos I loaded is still here 8 years later, when various others have gone the way of the pedantry of photo IP reviewers. Get a life ! Do some editing !Sticks66 11:05, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Bit quiet too

Hi! Yes, watched the game. Very disappointing from my pov. And I did notice you working on the game article, I just hope next year will make more positive reading for the Blues!

I have been a bit quiet on the project, not from lack of interest, more from lack of time as we have been looking into business options over the last month or so. I've been collecting old RLW magazine's and can't wait to sift through them and add info to articles/start articles. I did do an article on Dennis Tutty about a month ago which I am quite pleased with but other than that it's been a couple of stubs and editing existing articles.

Congrats on the 8,000! That news made me look at my edit count and I am pleased to say I am only 2,213 edits behind you!

Looking forward to some sort of resolution on the infobox saga. I noticed some infoboxes now showing the twenties as a senior club!

Cheers, •Florrie•leave a note• 01:45, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm definitely seeing the benefits of editing former players rather than trying to keep up the week to week stuff with existing players. Can't help myself with some favourites though and the existing (as well as former) coaches still need a lot of work. I do scratch my head over some of the player articles - play one game of NRL and they are notable?

Consensus

since we can't even get consensus on infoboxes - Really? Junior Tia-Kilifi, Sonny Bill Williams, Ben Barba, Frédéric Vaccari, Tom Butterfield, Mark Taufua... Just show me where the brick wall is. •Florrie•leave a note• 12:17, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Towards the end of the discussion somewhere. •Florrie•leave a note• 14:29, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, please. I have weatherboard and I'm afraid I may put a hole in it. •Florrie•leave a note• 14:45, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism on South Sydney Rabbitohs article

Hi, there is a guy (apparently associated with a web forum called "Rebel Rabbitohs" who is continously re-inserting his website's POV edits into the article - he seems to be obsessed with including irrelevant information re his forum's hostile attitude to Peter Holmes a Court. Such POVs are irrelevant to what should be a factual article. Rather than continously delete his edits is there any way that he can be stopped from re-posting in the article? Any assistance on this would be welcome. Sattlersjaw (talk) 01:33, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Colin/Charles York

Hi mate - I was editing an article last night titled Colin York but I think he is the same as Charles York, the only York listed in Whiticker and who also played in 1928 for Australia. This reference has him as Colin York. Any ideas on how we can find out which is the right name? Or will I just make a redirect entry for Charles York to Colin York? •Florrie•leave a note• 03:32, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

1948 Tour

Sorry I haven't had the chance to do this tour because I am doing Irish tours but I will do this tour I promise.

That book cover rationale

See User_talk:Florrie#That_book_cover_rationale.--Jeff79 (talk) 06:38, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

1947-48 Wallaby tour renaming

Would you mind having a look at Talk:1947-48 Wallaby tour of Britian, France and the USA and giving a thought to how the article should be renamed? Thanks. --Bcp67 (talk) 05:15, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Off again

Quick note to let you all know I am off again. I simply cannot cope with morons and destructive editing, there are more important things in life. We're opening our shop next week anyway, so I need to put away the distractions. If one of you would mind finishing off Allan McMahon's infobox I would appreciate it. I only got as far as coaching. Hope to be back eventually. Cheers! •Florrie•leave a note• 13:33, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Dragons coaches

Please see User_talk:Jeff79#Dragons_Coaches.--Jeff79 (talk) 15:29, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

1984 Australia rugby union tour of Britain and Ireland

Could you help me with the tour please because I am struggling with it.Thank you for helping me. The tour looks good but do you find someone to help me with the '47-'48 tour please.You can do what you like on the 47-48 tour Mr Hall of England (talk) 17:25, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

France rugby tours

Can you find someone to help me with this tours please.

Finding Florrie

Hi Sticks66 , could you help me to email to "florrie"...I'm new at this but nevertheless I have tried all I can see and gone nowhere!!..You seem to have some success. She was after some information. Maybe you can advise me...try me on [email protected] as I am not often looking at Wik these days and if my success so far is any example, I'm useless anyway!! Today is 14 December and I'll be off to Europe on 25th so early reply a great help.(Onepunchwonder (talk) 03:35, 14 December 2008 (UTC))

New to your project

I'm new to the Project but have just written this and greatly expanded this in the past week. I've written lots on both rugby codes but am now looking at more inspirational subjects. Hoping for your patience in coming to understand your protocols and looking for any pointers on how you do things. -Sticks66 11:15, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Welcome to the Milhist WikiProject (and the Australian military history task force!), and thank you for your contributions so far - those articles are looking good. If you have any questions, the task force coordinators (Nick-D and me) will do our best to help out, as will any of the task force members; you can post here or on our talk-pages as you prefer. Feel free to dive in with any suggestions or comments; the main project talk page is here and there are various departments linked in the infobox at the top of the page you might like to take a look at, depending on your interests. All the best, EyeSerene^talk 12:04, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Getting ready

I notice you are dusting off the old user page. Getting ready for the new season? Not long to go now. Only 41 days to the regular season, only 28 days to the World Club Challenge (though that's always a bit of a let-down/joke/fiasco/why do they do it?) and only 27 days to the Charity Shield! I've got a new sig to celebrate.  florrie  01:40, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

You might be interested in combining the WWI/RL aspect, then. I have a couple of footballers on my 'to do' list who were killed during WWI and I'm sure there are more. Bob Tidyman (who played in the Rorke's Drift Test) and Percy White who played for Easts. Both have articles but there isn't a lot of info on them so far - not sure if there is anything available though. Only if you have nothing to do... :)  florrie  02:07, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

The Hollioakes

Good question, in both their cases. It doesn't help that neither their bios nor the school article is well referenced. They're the wrong county for me to have a lot of material about, but I think I can help at least somewhat with one of them. Ben's obituary in the 2003 edition of Wisden has this to say:

Born in Melbourne, the brothers had travelled to England when their father's work took him there, and Ben played age-group cricket for England while at Millfield. Although he completed his schooling in Perth after the family moved back to Australia, Surrey had already lined him up to rejoin Adam at The Oval.

It looks as though Ben started his school days in Australia, then went to Millfield, then finished schooling back in Australia, then went back to England again when he was signed by Surrey. Loganberry (Talk) 00

13, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Whats wrong with the Barassi Line?

I'm just trying to work out what you're getting at when you say the Barassi Line isnt 'fact?' Are you seriously saying there ISN'T a cultural divide as to the premier football code? Or just that its not a straight line? In that case you can only argue the accuracy of the straight line versus a wriggly one, not that the line isn't fact. Mdw0 (talk) 22:27, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

OK, good. So what we're dealing with is not that the line doesn't exist, but the fact that the more stylised straight line isn't strictly accurate for a few areas. You could certainly say in terms of professional sport those areas are irrelevant, but if you wanted to be strictly accurate you'd put a few kinks in it to rule out all of Queensland. The line runs through the middle of NSW to reflect the strength of Aussie Rules in the Riverina, but as to whether it is absolutely the dominant code there is certainly debatable. I'd always thought it was pretty even in that area. An edit or two indicating the straight line isn't strictly accurate should be enough to reflect this. Mdw0 (talk) 00:48, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Depends on what part of the Riverina. Albury is more AFL then NRL, Wagga Wagga is border line (AFL and NRL), Leeton/Griffith is more NRL then AFL. Bidgee (talk) 01:49, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Edited. Better? Mdw0 (talk) 02:53, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Arch Crippin

Hi, I've removed the tags as the sources seem fine to me. Camw (talk) 12:56, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Hi

I'll find out for you mate, they could be something on the Australian sites. I'll get back to you. MadBullsFan-17/04/09-11.14

i suggest you contact the club - MadBullsFan - 17/04/09 - 11.50am

hey, try this email address - [email protected] Hope you get the info you need - MadBullsFan - 19/04/09 - 11.55am

Latchem Robinson

Would you mind doing the necessary for me with this pic of Norm Robinson? Thanks!  florrie  14:34, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Uploaded and linked Latchem. Will be safest if I can say the source of the shot within the PD rationale. Do you know it ? -Sticks66 14:45, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Oops. I just realised where you cropped it from.-Sticks66 14:47, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Here's Bill - and Sid. Would Mr Matthews be any good on the Harold Matthews Cup page?  florrie  15:05, 18 April 2009 (UTC) - and thanks for Latchem! They're a bit grainy but not too bad overall!  florrie  15:08, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

You know my attitude - "there's always room for one more article on another old-time Aust RL player" - or in this case "there's always room for one more photo of an old-time rugby league administrator who never actually played the game himself and therefore will probably never have an article written on him ". Why not a pic ?-Sticks66 15:11, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Brilliant stuff. I've just realised that Kelly was a DCI and a WWI veteran as well as being a GF winning coach and Blues & Austn Rep. All my 5 favourite topics in the one guy. -Sticks66 15:19, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Bill Kelly

I notice you added two coaching teams to his infobox, one technique I have used, if I can't find evidence he was sacked mid-season (which for back then, is virtually impossible), is to add up the wins, losses and draws, of that team during that year. Eg. The games University played in those two years would be Games, and so on.  The Windler talk  23:48, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Thx J. Good tip. Am now confused about when he coaching at University. Whiticker (Encyclop.) says 1923-24 which would make his record pretty poor for one dubbed "the Prince of Coaches"; whereas Sean Fagan makes it clear he was there in 1926 when they were runners-up & I've told that tale before in the 1926 article. I'll get to the bottom of it.-Sticks66 02:39, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Feeding your obsession

You may already have this info, but I saw it on the Footy Show (recorded it) and copied the list just in case  florrie  06:25, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Australia 1908 tour

It's really not the best of articles, but thanks for the pick-me-up. I've tried to find as much info as possible on it, but for some reason I'm having difficulty finding any good books on the subject. That's why the tour list of opposition teams is so full of holes. Help on that is really needed. BTW Not sure if you are interested, but I recently picked up a book on the 1907 All Golds. Not really my bag, but lots of good info. Not sure if there's anything you needed from that tour, but I'm sure we had discussions about the subject in the past. If not, forget I spoke. Cheers FruitMonkey (talk) 15:59, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

You could well be right. I'm scanning through all my books, and can't find the evidence on which I based the title. Hmmm... maybe I confused myself with another tour. Move as you see fit Sticks. FruitMonkey (talk) 21:00, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I've now found two websites mentioning this was a tour of Great Britain and France, (http://www.colonialrugby.com.au/wallabies1899.htm) is one example. They mention but I can't find information on any actual matches. Very strange. As for the copyright issue, I always use the general PD-1923 for the works I presently cover. I've had no real issues so far. FruitMonkey (talk) 09:55, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Try File:Wales1881.jpg, which is not only used on a dozen pages, but was also used for the article 1880-81 Home Nations rugby union matches, which was used as the main feature DYK, and thus used on the frontpage. I thought someone may have challanged it if I was using the system incorrectly. Your information on the cancelled French leg makes much sense, maybe we need to rename the article and mention the failed French matches to stop other's questioning it. But yes, I think the article is coming along quite nicely, though it's a difficult tour to find quality information on. Strange as the previous Springbok and All Black tour are very well recorded. I would love to nail all the locations and dates for the tour. FruitMonkey (talk) 13:42, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Robert Matthew Beatham

Nice work! Pdfpdf (talk) 06:10, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

No, Mr Abraham can not, and will not, support his opinion with any supporting evidence. However, it will end up (in his mind) as being your fault. Pdfpdf (talk) 13:23, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

re: Robert Matthew Beatham

Hi. The addition of ribbons on Beatham's awards in the article is just, in my opinion, a section of list cruft. The three medals you are refering to were service medals awarded to everyone who served during the First World War. Also, the section was unreferenced and could be viewed to consist of WP:OR. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 23:47, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually - they were not awarded to 'everyone who served'. The 1914-15 Star was not awarded to those who had earned the 1914 Star, and you had to serve (not surpisingly) between 5 August 1914 and 31 December 1915. You also had to be in a prescribed 'theatre of war' - ie, not training back in Australia (in the case of the AIF). The BWM also required service in theatre - someone who did not leave Australia (or Great Britain) did not earn it. Naval personnel also required 28 days minimum service. The Victory medal also required service in theatre - so if you got the BMW, you would automatically get the Victory Medal. Although, with the Victory medal being almost an 'international' award, there were many wearers of that ribbon/medal who did not receive a BWM (eg, the 1500 Thai receipients). PalawanOz (talk) 14:42, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I am aware of the criteria of these medals; my statement was left as such as I was quite hasty in my explanation. I sincerely apologise, Sticks66, for my unorthodox and hasty removal. I have been both stressed and ill for the past few days, so have been a little hasty and short-tempered on a few things. As there were no citations in the section, I automatically thought of OR; I should have placed cite needed tags and/or had a look at those links listed in the references section that I did not notice at the time. In an overall sense, the addition of service medals to articles is a split issue, though evidence seems to reside with against in regards to higher rated articles (GA, A and FA). Once again, I apologise for my behaviour aexplanation. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 04:37, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

William Ruthven

Howdy!
Due to an edit conflict, it's entirely possible I may have stomped on some of your edits.
I have fixed the more obvious ones. If I have missed any, my humble apologies - please restore them.
Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 13:38, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

That picture is looking bloody big now ! Hey, can you remind me how do I force-insert the position of a TOC ? -Sticks66 13:35, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

__TOC__ - two underscores on each side of TOC. (No braces.) Pdfpdf (talk) 14:28, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

"That picture .. " Well, I like it, but if you don't, feel free to change it ...

"Hey, can you remind me ... " - Jeez, why don't you ask me an easy question?? ;-) Ummmm. Where do you want to force-insert it? (Maybe I'll remember while I'm waiting for your answer ... )

Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 13:46, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Howdy indeed. This bloke though born in NZ was a crow-eater like you. So you may want to check the article is neat and tidy. Did you see my Q above re the TOC ?-Sticks66 13:43, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Clearly, you can both think and type faster than I can! (Might be something to do with the red wine I've been enjoying?)

"So you may want to ... " - Thanks for the "heads-up". I'll have a look.

"Did you see my Q above re the TOC ?" - Yup. I just have a slower reaction time than you do.

Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 13:51, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

On Weathers the TOC appears above the Ref section since I haven't put in any other section heads. Would prefer not to add meaningless other headers and would rather just position at the TOC at the top of the article. Rgds -Sticks66 13:51, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

<od>OK. I've caught up with you (at last.)
I don't want to be a pain, and I understand what you want to achieve, but if you are going to use a structure different from all the other Oz VC articles, you are going to get a different result! You are also going to attract (large amounts of arrogant) flack from all the anal pedants!!! Why not make life easier for yourself by matching all the other articles? (And yes, I agree, it's neither reasonable, rational, logical or sensible. It's just expedient!) Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 14:03, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Are you saying my suggestion to move the TOC is what's different and therefore a potential issue ? Or are you saying that the way I've done the 3 subsections of refs is different ? -Sticks66 14:07, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

The first sentence is the issue that I feel is likely to cause you aggrevation.

Yes, the way you have done the refs is "different"; no doubt after they have hung, drawn and quartered you over the first issue, they will attack you on the second! (After all, once you've given them the smell of blood ... )

Pdfpdf (talk) 14:14, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

That wine was enjoyable. I'm off to bed. "Catch yu" Pdfpdf (talk) 14:18, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

1981-82 Australia rugby union tour of Britain and Ireland

Could you give me or put some information on this tour. Mr Hall of England (talk) 20:36, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks - will have a look at the teams and link where appropriate. I followed the 81-82 tour quite a bit via tv and press, so I've got a good memory of it. And your book's right, the weather that winter was horrible!--Bcp67 (talk) 14:55, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

The squad list has the flag of Queensland alongside John Meadows but the Rothmans Yearbook shows him as playing for Victoria - any confirmation on that?--Bcp67 (talk) 15:15, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. Meadows is listed in the details of the 1981-82 tour as a Victoria player (very unusual), although the list of Australian internationals in a later book shows him as representing Australia as both a Victoria & Queensland player. I'll make the change. The Rothmans yearbooks are excellent statistical and reference books with a mainly Northern Hemisphere slant, but yes the tour section does contain a narrative describing the tour as a whole and also match reports of the four tests which (given time!) I'll paraphrase into this tour article. Erica Roe - probably Britain's most famous streaker!!--Bcp67 (talk) 06:36, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I've used the Rothmans reports of the international matches to write a short piece about each of the four games. I'll do some work on the tour overview later in the week. Thanks for your work on this article too.--Bcp67 (talk) 19:28, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments and work. It's quite satisfying to put together a decent-ish article on a (fairly minor!) subject which I'm reasonably familiar with. Sadly, I can't see any chance of getting an image into the article.--Bcp67 (talk) 19:41, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

I should be able to do the apps for the 1984 tour - I've got a set of Rothmans annuals from the mid-70s to the mid-90s so there will be a list somewhere.--Bcp67 (talk) 18:10, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Doing some work now on the 1984 tour taken from the 85-86 Rothmans yearbook. I have completed the squad list but most of the players I have added (e.g. Hanley, Burrow) are unfamiliar to me. Is there anything you can add on this?--Bcp67 (talk) 20:08, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

1957-58 tour

I would like to help but I do not know any of the tour matches. Mr Hall of England (talk) 15:58, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to help too but unfortunately I haven't got much to go on. The Rothmans annuals are basically records of the preceding season, but only began in the early 1970s, so I haven't got anything relevant I am afraid. I do have the international line-ups from another book but by the look of it you have those already. I'll link the England team in the article where appropriate. Sorry haven't replied earlier but I've been on holiday! --Bcp67 (talk) 20:43, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Info on Aussie Grand Slam tours

Could you check if the tour matches of each of the Grand Slam tours are done please because I want to do them by checking the team, venue and score. Don't forget is the 25 years sine 1984. Mr Hall of England (talk) 20:48, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

1975-76 Wallaby tour of Britain & Ireland

Hi - I'm doing a bit of work now to try to get this article in the same sort of shape as the ones on the 1981-82 and 1984 tours. If you fancy diving in at all to help, feel free! If not, feel free not to!! One area I'd particularly appreciate some help with is the squad list - I have the list from the 76-77 Rothmans annual but it gives only the states which the players represented, not their clubs. Thanks.--Bcp67 (talk) 17:08, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Dual code internationals

There have been quite a few, although not nearly as many as Australia one would assume. Many of the All Golds had played for the All Blacks but I'm not sure if it was most. Any ex-All Blacks, even if they had only played one game (not necessarily Test), has a brief biography at stats.allblacks.com. It also lists their All Blacks statistics. This google search may help you somewhat. - Shudde ^talk 14:27, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Dunno if you're aware of Trevor Allan.--Jeff79 (talk) 07:35, 26 August 2008 (UTC). Thx Jeff

:Might wanna check out Dave Valentine too.--Jeff79 (talk) 13:40, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Same goes for Kel Coslett.--Jeff79 (talk) 13:46, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

And Tom van Vollenhoven.--Jeff79 (talk) 14:31, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

It's also entirely possible that Charlie Seeling played in some of those early Other Nationalities teams, but I don't have the info to verify that.--Jeff79 (talk) 08:09, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Have a butchers at Willie Davies. Can't find his first game for Wales league though. FruitMonkey (talk) 18:35, 20 September 2008 (UTC) I think he played in the last test of the '46 Tour since he didn't play in the 1st 3 in Australia -Sticks66 14:25, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Just created Craig Innes. He might be one for the 'disputed dual-code rugby internationals'. I've not put him into the dual-code rugby international category. Although maybe he belongs there. I'll let you decide.--Jeff79 (talk) 10:16, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I thought I just had Kiwis to add but the Welsh list just keeps growing. For every new Kiwi I find there are 2 more Taffies !!-Sticks66 14:25, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I"m sure there are more Frenchies from back in the old days too. Check out the list of internationals' articles I've created on my user page. There's a few stubs for French league players there that might also be DCIs.--Jeff79 (talk) 01:42, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

::Check out Mike Coulman (and info at Salford_City_Reds#Players_Earning_International_Caps_Whilst_At_Salford which I think came from here.)--Jeff79 (talk) 16:45, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Hey mate, just wondering if you're over your DCI obsession or if you didn't notice my note there about Mike Coulman. I thought you'd be all over it! Or your obsession's cured?--Jeff79 (talk) 12:44, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

::::Got an interesting play against the Dual-code statement that no former international players were of the 1904 England vs. Other nationalities. Jack Rhapps, Welsh international 1897, then 1904 Other nationalities. Does that count? FruitMonkey (talk) 21:10, 3 July 2009 (UTC) Sure does -Sticks66 13:39, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Jim Brough & George A. Gillett.--Jeff79 (talk) 13:31, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Welsh Dual Code

Haven't come across any sites so far and to be honest I'm more of an amateur with lots of books. But I'll keep you in mind during my hunts, something is bound to pop up. Would you be interested if I flag up individual Welsh dual code players if I come across them, as some are quite obscure. Cheers.FruitMonkey (talk) 20:55, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I've put a note on User talk:FruitMonkey about Jonathan Davies's DCI status --Bcp67 (talk) 18:39, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Check Fred Jowett (rugby player), Welsh lad that played for Wales and the lions and then nipped off to play for Hull Kingston Rovers. Not sure if he was then capped for a league side, but this web site has a league cap. Could be an international cap, I'm not sure, but you have better league info than me. [4]. Cheers. FruitMonkey (talk) 14:50, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Wallaby debuts

Hi - re your message on the Project Rugby Union page about Wallaby debuts for dual code internationals. I've got a very useful book by the British rugby union statistician, John Griffiths, which covers all matches played by the 8 IRB founder members up to 1987 (it was published to coincide with the first world cup). Gives team line-ups, scorers, match details etc. I'm happy to use it for any questions you've got and if you want to add in the details I don't mind adding a citation in to articles. The book also gives full names and dates of births/deaths for most players.

Specifically then - Stephen Knight's debut came against South Africa in the 2nd test of the 1969 series, at Durban on 16 August 69 (SA won 16-9). Geoff Richardson debut against SA in the 1st test on 17 July 71 (SA won 19-11). "Mr Perpetual Motion" made his debut against the All Blacks in the 1st test of the 1974 series, at Sydney on 25 May 74 (not 75) (one of six Wallaby debutants in that game including Paul McLean), and he scored a try on debut, and Michael O'Connor's debut came in the 1st test against Argentina, 27 October 1979. --Bcp67 (talk) 08:21, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Do you need any other information about, say, England DCIs? --Bcp67 (talk) 14:54, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I'll have a look for Ray French's debut but the others are outside the scope of the Griffiths book, which was published in 1987. I can find John Bentley's debut from a Rothmans yearbook I think (he played his first RU test for England in 1988) but Farrell and Mather are outside the range of what I have here. My book covers only RU tests played by E, S, I, W, F, NZ, SA, A up to 1987 and I'll answer anything I can within those parameters. You might also find the website scrum.com useful as it has a good RU player database. Other possible England DCIs are Keith Fairbrother and Mike Coulman plus Lesley Vainokolo and Henry Paul. --Bcp67 (talk) 19:29, 3 August 2008 (UTC)