Talk:Trans woman

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Trans woman article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11: 2 months

view · edit

Frequently asked questions

This section is here to provide answers to some questions that have been previously discussed on this talk page.

Note: This FAQ is only here to let people know that these points have previously been addressed, not to prevent any further discussion of these issues.

Q1: Why does the article define trans woman the way that it does?

A1: The definition is the result of a 2022 Request for Comment (RfC) located at Talk:Trans woman/Archive 10#RfC on first sentence (itself subsequent to a 2018 RfC located at Talk:Trans woman/Archive 4#RfC on introduction). In both RfCs, there was no consensus as to which option was preferable; in the absence of affirmative consensus, the pre-existing text remained in place both times. Wikipedia content, including that decided on by RfCs, should be based on the due weight of reliable sources. Such sources are being collected at Talk:Trans woman/Definitions; anyone is welcome to contribute definitions there for future reference.

Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated, especially about Neutral point of view, Wording of lede and Contradicts the articles woman and female. Please read recent comments, look in the archives, and review the FAQ before commenting on that topic, and read through the list of highlighted discussions below before starting a new one:

Restarting a debate that has already been settled constitutes disruptive editing, tendentious editing, and "asking the other parent", unless consensus changes.

Gender studies Mid‑importance

This article is part of WikiProject Gender studies. This WikiProject aims to improve the quality of articles dealing with gender studies and to remove systematic gender bias from Wikipedia. If you would like to participate in the project, you can choose to edit this article, or visit the project page for more information.Gender studiesWikipedia:WikiProject Gender studiesTemplate:WikiProject Gender studiesGender studies

Mid

This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

To-do list:

Here are some tasks awaiting attention:

Assess : see Unassessed Gender studies articles and Unknown-importance Gender studies articles
Cleanup : edit to see
Collaborate : see /Collaboration
Copyedit : edit to see
Deletion sorting : see /Sexuality and gender
Expand : edit to see
Infobox : see Gender studies articles needing infoboxes
Merge : edit to see
Notability : edit to see
NPOV : edit to see
Orphans : Brannon Masculinity Scale · Holy Virility · Media and gender · Michael Kaufman (author) · Women's education in Saudi Arabia
Photo : see Wikipedia requested photographs of gender studies
Split : History of feminism
Stubs : see Gender studies stubs
Translate : see /translation
Update : edit to see
Verify : Riot grrrl
Needs attention : see Gender studies articles needing attention

LGBTQ studies

This article is of interest to WikiProject LGBTQ studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all LGBTQ-related issues on Wikipedia. For more information, or to get involved, please visit the project page or contribute to the discussion.LGBTQ studiesWikipedia:WikiProject LGBTQ studiesTemplate:WikiProject LGBTQ studiesLGBTQ studies

Sexology and sexuality Mid‑importance

	Human sexuality portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Sexology and sexuality, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of human sexuality on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Sexology and sexualityWikipedia:WikiProject Sexology and sexualityTemplate:WikiProject Sexology and sexualitySexology and sexuality
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Women

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of women on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.WomenWikipedia:WikiProject WomenTemplate:WikiProject WomenWikiProject Women

Women's History Mid‑importance

	History portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women's History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Women's history and related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women's HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject Women's HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Women's HistoryWomen's History
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

This article should adhere to the gender identity guideline because it contains material about one or more trans women. Precedence should be given to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, anywhere in article space, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. Some people go by singular they pronouns, which are acceptable for use in articles. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Former, pre-transition names may only be included if the person was notable while using the name; outside of the main biographical article, such names should only appear once, in a footnote or parentheses.

If material violating this guideline is repeatedly inserted, or if there are other related issues, please report the issue to the LGBTQ WikiProject, or, in the case of living people, to the BLP noticeboard.

Warning: active arbitration remedies

The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:

You must be logged-in to an autoconfirmed or confirmed account (usually granted automatically to accounts with 10 edits and an age of 4 days)

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

Semi-protected edit request on 27 March 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

In the last paragraph of 'Terminology' change "The term has historically been applies to people..." to "The term has historically been applied to people..." PolyCloud (talk) 05:08, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Thanks. Grayfell (talk) 05:26, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Definition is Flawed

WP:NPA, WP:NOTFORUM

The point being made by previous attempts to improve this article is that the article linked to the word "woman" defines that word as "adult human female." The definition of "trans woman" is therefore not only circular, it's illogical as it also requires that a trans woman is "assigned male at birth." The definition cannot require that they're both male and female as that would make them literally hermaphroditic (a biological impossibility in mammals), which is both an incorrect definition of what trans women essentially are and is statistically inconsistent with reality. Conversely, it also inherently and unequivocally (and correctly) implies that trans women can't have been conceived and born female which further bolsters the point that the definition in the linked article of "woman" is contradictory.

Furthermore, the usage of the phrase "assigned at birth" implies both ambiguity and discretion (on the part of medical staff) at birth when sex is determined by the sperm at the moment of conception. This article is based on a poorly written definition that fails the most basic linguistic and scientific standards used in any other context. More alarmingly, the article fails to even remotely acknowledge, let alone address, the lack of real consensus that this very discussion should represent. In nearly any other context, but especially one regarding the definition of a word in which a subgroup of an essentially excluded group (in this case, "men") can now be included, there would be a "Definition Controversy" section but this article conspicuously lacks that.

A better definition is: "a trans woman is a man who identifies as, or whose gender identity aligns with that of, a woman." This definition is not only succinct, it doesn't contradict itself. It also doesn't compromise the definition of "woman," which must remain intact in order for the term and identity of "trans woman" to have any subsequent meaning as it contains the word in it. Tpetross (talk) 04:32, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We don't go by what editors' personal analyses conclude. We go by what reliable sources say. And they do not say "a trans woman is a man who identifies as, or whose gender identity aligns with that of, a woman". EvergreenFir (talk) 04:39, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Possible inaccuracy

I believe the following messaging derived from #67 is most likely inaccurate: "In 2016, 23 transgender people suffered fatal attacks in the United States."

The source does not use the language "attacks". Attack implies an offensive assault; however, the source is listing violence in general. The report from 2016 (which is reference within the source) also does not use the language "attack" to describe all of the events, only specific events. This is most likely intentional, as one of the events was a police shooting where the person who was shot lunged at police officers with a knife.

I'm not sure what this could be changed to, possibly just "In 2016, 23 transgender people suffered fatal violence". The "attacks" verbiage added by a Wikipedia editor should most likely be removed, as it's not in the source, and appears to be inaccurate. CodingApe (talk) 06:16, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We should avoid accidentally implying that all deaths were the result of unprovoked hate crimes or murder, but I'm not sure how much we can do about this. I don't see a huge difference between suffering a fatal attack vs. fatal violence. If we do change it, think I'd prefer In 2016, at least 23 transgender people were killed in the United States. as it is the least ambiguous. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (talk • stalk) 15:09, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think that is much better. The syntax/sound is better than the replacement I came up with as well.

Somewhat unrelated, but it might be worthwhile to expand on the homicide rate in this section, so readers who are familiar with the number of transgender individuals in the United States don't infer that all transgender individuals experience a homicide rate that is much lower than the national average. That is the initial impression I got when I read the listed figure, and the original reason why I clicked through to review the source.

According to this study, the homicide rate is lower for transgender individuals in general; however, higher for black and latina trans women compared to cis women belonging to those same demographics. The authors of the original source also make note of this, as they state: "it is clear that fatal violence disproportionately affects transgender women of color". CodingApe (talk) 19:19, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]