Talk:Thanksgiving (United States)

{{Broken anchors|links=

• [[Leap year#Algorithm|leap year algorithm]] The anchor (#Algorithm) has been deleted by other users before. That's how it's spelled in the proclamation. —MRD2014 ^{Talk • Edits • Help!} 19:54, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

Libertarian/Socialist controversy around Thanksgiving.

Questions whether the famine was socialist induced or not. http://www.slate.com/articles/life/holidays/2014/11/thanksgiving_socialism_the_strange_and_persistent_right_wing_myth_that_thanksgiving.html // https://mises.org/library/great-thanksgiving-hoax-1 --105.11.118.91 (talk) 12:46, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

List of films set around Thanksgiving

There is a link to "films set around Thanksgiving" in the Thanksgiving general holiday section. It should be added to the Thanksgiving (United States) section, since most of the films were made in Los Angeles, Calif., and deal with a USA Thanksgiving holiday observance. Not having any mention of Thanksgiving movies in the Unites States section, when most of them were made in the USA, and are about the way the USA observes the holiday, does not make sense. Other nations observe Thanksgiving, however, there are almost no movies about the way the holiday is celebrated in other countries. ````Bennett Turk```` — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:6000:E289:300:34CD:149D:E7EA:C8ED (talk) 02:34, 17 November 2018 (UTC) 2604:6000:E289:300:34CD:149D:E7EA:C8ED (talk) 05:11, 17 November 2018 (UTC)Bennett Turk2604:6000:E289:300:34CD:149D:E7EA:C8ED (talk) 05:11, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

Squanto's Slavery

Why does this page say that Squanto was a slave in England when the page on Squanto says that his slavery was in Spain? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.96.208.77 (talk) 15:32, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

The first Thanksgiving was in Virginia...

The first Thanksgiving was in Virginia... https://www.nationalgeographic.com/culture/2018/11/first-thanksgiving-berkeley-virginia-pilgrim-archaeology/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.53.69.147 (talk) 20:37, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 November 2018

The first Thanksgiving took place at Berkeley Hundred, later called Berkeley Plantation, in 1619. https://www.washingtonian.com/2015/11/18/the-first-thanksgiving-took-place-in-virginia-not-massachusetts/ 96.84.232.145 (talk) 18:46, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. DannyS712 (talk) 19:01, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Editing THANKSGIVING (United States)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving_(United_States)#Criticism_and_controversy

Why can't we edit the page to include 1982 in the heading of Thanksgiving held on "November 25"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 8.2.72.90 (talk) 21:59, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

semi protected edit request 10 november 2019

1. Please change "as a celebration of the cultural genocide" to "as a celebration of the genocide"

 Done Airplaneman (talk) ✈ 00:26, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

2. please add the following citations to support the above: https://www.history.com/news/native-american-genocide-california-apology , https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/19/us/newsom-native-american-apology.html , http://www.tahtonka.com/apology.html , http://christopherbuck.com/video/Kevin_Gover_BIA_Speech.mpg , and http://www.bahai-library.com/pdf/b/buck_gover_never_again.pdf

 Not done There's already a suitable source for the statement in part 1 of your request. The ones you provide appear to be less general than the current source, instead citing specific instances. Therefore, these sources may be good when referring to specific apologies. Airplaneman (talk) ✈ 00:26, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

3. Please also link the word "genocide" mentioned above to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Native_American_genocide

 Done with a caveat: I've linked to the article space (Native American genocide) as opposed to the category space, which, to my knowledge, isn't standard to do in Wikipedia articles. I have, however, added a link to the category in the article. Airplaneman (talk) ✈ 00:26, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.164.226.126 (talk) 07:39, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi wikipedia people, I have some suggestions

First, add more information about Indigenous deaths due to the plague. The plague was brought by Europeans travelers and the Indigenous people were killed by this disease. The people that did not die from disease were also captured and sold as slaves. Second, at first, the English and Indigenous people did not sit down together and eat big turkey dinner together peacefully. The reason why the Indigenous people came to the Pilgrims is because they heard gunfires and wanted to help. But the Pilgrims were not fighting, actually it was because the Pilgrims just had harvested their corps and didn't have enough food. The Pilgrims invited the Indigenous people for the dinner, but they didn't have enough food so the Indigenous people hunted five more deer to bring back. Third, is that the dinner that the Pilgrims and the Indigenous had was not turkeys and pies. The foods that they had were actually deer and fowls.Indian Country Today Article

Dear Wikipedia,

I think this article only has an American opinion and a lack of an Indigenous perspective. In addition, the information in the thanksgiving (United States) might affect someone who doesn't really know what happened and it will influence their thinking. Moreover, you should add some Indigenous stories, for example, the Wampanoag side of thanksgiving. 1. The Indigenous people and Pilgrim ate Venison instead of Turkey. 2. Pilgrim didn't share the meal with Indigenous people. 3. The Indigenous went to Pilgrim party because they heard the gunshot. Please enter the following site for more information. the wampanoag side of the first thanksgiving story

Something related to Indigenous people

I think the article about thanksgiving has missed some points about indigenous people's perspective. Therefore, i have some suggestion that you that you might want to add in your passage. First, While many paintings of “the First Thanksgiving” show a single long table with several Pilgrims and a few Native people, there were actually twice as many Indigenous people as well and the indigenous people and pilgrims ate Venison instead of turkey. Moreover, the pilgrims didn't share their meal with indigenous people, actually the indigenous people hunted deer and brought their own food to share.

Indigenous people

https://www.phillymag.com/news/2012/11/20/dark-origins-thanksgiving/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.81.193.52 (talk) 12:36, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Main food is not turkey during Thanksgiving!

Dear Wikipedia,

 There's some erroneous information about the main food during Thanksgiving. The turkey is not the main food that we usually eat with our family during Thanksgiving. Actually, the main food is " venison", which is the meat of deer.

People ate some seafood and waterfowl along with maize bread, pumpkin, and other squashes. The ancient Thanksgiving and modern Thanksgiving are nothing alike. If you want to know more about Thanksgiving please click this " https://newsmaven.io/indiancountrytoday/archive/the-wampanoag-side-of-the-first-thanksgiving-story-TmMLTgQs40aJT_n9T3RMIQ/."

Hello Anonymous - Feel free to create an account and start updating the article, but you don't need create an account, though it does help.Hires an editor (talk) 17:29, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

about indigenous people

HI Wikipedia, I'm concerned about Indigenous people in thanksgiving. First, we should add more food that people eat now and the thanksgiving, in the paragraph it said people eating Turkey but is actually not, people are eating venison. Also describe who are the indigenous people and there daily life, including where they come form and there transitional culture. We should add more information about the Wampanoag, they are the people who were at the first thanksgiving day. There's many history behind this happy holiday, we should understand the real history, for example indigenous people weren't happy about white people coming to their place.

indigenous people

Hello Wikipedia

I am a student, that is studying about thanksgiving in the United States. I have a suggestion for this article. I think you can add more information about Indigenous people. Indigenous people had lots of contributions in Thanksgiving. They also sacrifice lots when they were trying to save the Pilgrims. And there are some mistake in the article, for expemale in this link I realize that the Pilgrims and Indigenous people did not eat turkey they ate deer meat to share with others. https://newsmaven.io/indiancountrytoday/archive/the-wampanoag-side-of-the-first-thanksgiving-story-TmMLTgQs40aJT_n9T3RMIQ/

Different food we eat at thanksgiving

Hi wikipedia, this article it says that we eat turkey at thanksgiving. In fact turkey is not the main food that was eaten at the first thanksgiving. I think we could change details about the food we ate at thanksgiving. Usually we ate venison, not just the roasted venison we ate every part of the deer. There would also have some different foods like seafood, pumpkin, and other squashes. That is not similar like the thanksgiving we know.The Wampanoag Side of the First Thanksgiving Story

Suggestions to Wikipedia

Dear Wikipedia: I have some suggestions for Wikipedia. These suggestions are based on the link below. First, I think we can add indigenous perspectives to this topic. Secondly, the first Thanksgiving is that the people did not sit down for a big dinner. Also, there is a kind of food that makeup with deer, that is a traditional food for thanksgiving too. The Wampanoag Side of the First Thanksgiving Story

I got something to say.

https://newsmaven.io/indiancountrytoday/archive/the-wampanoag-side-of-the-first-thanksgiving-story-TmMLTgQs40aJT_n9T3RMIQ/ In the American, when the May Flower first touch the ground of American, everyone pray and celebrate for their luck. But bad things come, the people can't survive for the first winter, but the native help them, they give them food and teach them how to survive on this land, they did invite the native, is when they shot the animals, the native here and they come to help. The people don't have food for them, they also need to bring their own food. No-one serve the native they are not happy for this holiday, they are sad for this, because this is a day for them to remember the family and friends that pass through this winter.

Suggestions to Wikipedia - What about Indigenous perspective?

Dear Wikipedia, I have some suggestions about the Indigenous people. First, the dinner that the Pilgrims and the Indigenous had was not turkeys. Is actually deer and fowls. Second, The plague kill thousands of Indigenous people. Many also had been captured and sold as slaves. Next, we should add more information about how Indigenous people live.

The Wampanoag Side of the First Thanksgiving Story

Table of dates (1985–2029)

The strange-looking table that takes up a lot of space and is manually edited, in my opinion, is not needed when you can make an automatically updated table in which there will be a list of dates and the eye will immediately grab the right one without bold formatting.

@Alandeus: please do not mark your revocation changes as minor.·Carn !? 09:43, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Your automatically updating list was certainly innovative, but it was just redundant info that is in the table anyway. I think readers will more often be interested in a broad range of dates beyound the last, current, and next year. Sorry if you felt your contribution was more than minor; seemed to be just a fragment. Alandeus (talk) 13:06, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

My feelings have nothing to do with it, I just wanted to give advice for the future, see WP:MINOR plz: "A minor edit is one that the editor believes requires no review and could never be the subject of a dispute."

I don’t like current table because of messiness when I try to find the date in the order first year then corresponding date (it seems to me that this is what is interesting to readers), and not in the order date - year as it is made.

For a larger range of years, please:

November 27, 2014	November 25, 2021	November 23, 2028
November 26, 2015	November 24, 2022	November 22, 2029
November 24, 2016	November 23, 2023	November 28, 2030
November 23, 2017	November 28, 2024	November 27, 2031
November 22, 2018	November 27, 2025	November 25, 2032
November 28, 2019	November 26, 2026	November 24, 2033
November 26, 2020	November 25, 2027	November 23, 2034

• If there is a need to specify more years, it is quite possible.·Carn !? 10:52, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
  • @Alandeus: - i think to remove duplicated 'November's and implement it in the article.·Carn·!? 11:35, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
    • Actually, I think the gaps / blank boxes in the current table are interesting. Alandeus (talk) 12:06, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Hi wikipedia, I have some suggestions for you!

 Hi, Wikipedia I have some advice for you. You did a great job on other parts of information of thanksgiving, but if you want to make the articles become better you need to add more detail of the information. I think you can add more history about thanksgiving to let the reader tell why thanksgiving becomes an important holiday. For example: For Wampanoag, They think thanksgiving is not a happy and peaceful holiday. They think the holiday for people is a kind of mourning for Wampanoag. They also think it is the beginning of the end. You can put more pictures related to the article. Also, don't forget to add the link for the information that can make us be more trust in you. India Country Today

To add to article

Could we add information to this article about the Thanksgiving that took place at St. Augustine, Florida in 1565 (55 years before the one in Plymouth)? https://www.nps.gov/casa/learn/historyculture/the-first-thanksgiving.htm

76.189.141.37 (talk) 00:46, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

You should add some information based on the perspective of the Indigenous.

Dear fellow Wikipedians, I am a bit worried about the information on this page. You guys have said that all of the contents on your pages are neutral. However, after reading through the page, I found out that you do not add any perspective from the Indigenous. I have recommended some example below:

1. They had fests together because the Indigenous heard the gunshot so they wanted to help them (they thought they were in danger.) 2. They ate five deers instead of turkeys. 3. The pilgrims did not invite or prepare any food for the Indigenous so the Indigenous hunted five deers and shared with the pilgrims.

The information above is based on https://newsmaven.io/indiancountrytoday/archive/the-wampanoag-side-of-the-first-thanksgiving-story-TmMLTgQs40aJT_n9T3RMIQ/. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.20.182.253 (talk) 03:51, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

I want to say some things about this page

Dear people in wiki, I am wondering why you don't put enough things about Indigenous at the first Thanksgiving.

For example, you can try to include these things.

1. They didn't eat turkey at the first Thanksgiving, they ate deers. 2. The Indigenous thought that American was injured, so they went to help. 3. Thanksgiving was full of “atrocities” and “broken promises” for Indigenous people.

If you want more information for Thanksgiving you can go to this page below.

The Wampanoag Side of the First Thanksgiving Story

You need to include different perspective

Dear people who work in Wikipedia, I am worried about whether Wikipedia is still a reliable encyclopedia source because the information about Thanksgiving doesn't seem quite complete. For example, you should include the following. 1. The reason why Pilgrims got the disease 2. What specific reason causes the turkey to become indispensable dish in Thanksgiving 3. What did the Pilgrims do after hearing the gunshots Also, you can see more information on the website Indian Country Today's news. The Wampanoag Story — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.72.213.185 (talk) 03:57, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

You need to add the indigenous perspective!

Wikipedian, In my opinion, you must contain more information and contents on the first Thanksgiving and other Mayflower as well.

Here are some examples.

1. The thing that they eat during the harvest feast is not turkeys, but venisons. There is no information about this on the Thanksgiving website. Otherwise, there are more food types they eat in the feast as well.

2. Adding the exact arrival date for the Mayflower and more information about the relationship with the Paxtuxet.

3. More information about the National Day of Mourning.

4. More information about the relationship between the Wampanoag and Pilgrims.

This is the website: https://newsmaven.io/indiancountrytoday/archive/the-wampanoag-side-of-the-first-thanksgiving-story-TmMLTgQs40aJT_n9T3RMIQ/

by another Wikipedian — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chichi1215 (talk • contribs) 04:01, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

You should add some indigenous's perspective

Dear writer, I suggest you about the information of your paragraph, you should add some specific information of the truth about the indigenous.

1.The plague killed thousand, two-third of the natives, and also captured some natives as slave to sold. 2.The first Thanksgiving is that the Wampanoag and Pilgrims did not sit down for a big turkey dinner and it was not an event that the Wampanoag knew about or were invited to in advance. 3. The Indigenous chief sent his men out, and they bring back five deer, which they present to the chief of the English town. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.72.213.185 (talk) 04:03, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

You have very stupid content

Hello Wikipedians In my opinion, I think you don’t include enough cited information about the indigenous perspective of the first thanksgiving.

Here are some examples

1. They don’t eat turkeys while celebrating their first thanksgiving, they eat venisons and fowls. They don’t have pumpkin pies at that time either

2. Missing information about Many Wampanoags are sold as slaves

3. Add exact dates for the mayflower event

4. More information about the National Mourning Day

5. Tell more about Wampanoag & Pilgrims’s relationship

For more information, visit this website:

https://newsmaven.io/indiancountrytoday/archive/the-wampanoag-side-of-the-first-thanksgiving-story-TmMLTgQs40aJT_n9T3RMIQ/

You should add more details or real facts and use Indigenous perspective

Dear Wiki people, Hi, nice to meet you, I have some recommendations for this article, I consider that you should include more details and perspectives for the first thanksgiving, and also I believe this article is lack of cited information which make it questionable.

Below are my suggestions to improve this article: Detail addition: - why the population of people decreased quickly - sources of the plague - what exactly happened during the First Thanksgiving - Indigenous point of view - address correction (using Indigenous people to call the people of the land shows more respect instead of calling the Native American or Indian)

Please use Indian Country Today's news website to see more details. --211.72.213.185 (talk) 04:04, 29 November 2019 (UTC)Wampanoag Story

Add others perspectives

Dear Wiki people: I have some opinions on these pages and I wish you can correct it. I suggest that you should add some Indigenous perspectives to respect the real history that really happened. I have some suggestions for you can correct on this page, please take a look: 1. You should add some Indigenous perspectives. 2. They ate deers for first they met. 3. The Indigenous dead for the plague and many of them had been captured and sold by the English.

For more information, you can visit this website: The real history of thanksgiving — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.72.213.185 (talk) 04:04, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

You should make the fact of the beginning of Thanksgiving more clearly

Hi Wiki peoples, I found out that you guys didn't really tell about the beginning of Thanksgiving, which is the meal of the first Thanksgiving, why they use the that kind of meals for Thanksgiving, and what is the purpose of the Thanksgiving. I will list 3 things that learned form that article "The Wampanoag Side of the First Thanksgiving Story" and I think you should add in the Wikipedia. (If you need to find more details, I will put the link at the bottom.)

1. The first Thanksgiving use venison for dinner. 2. The Indigenous people use the food that is variable, which is deer, and hunt them. There are no turkeys at that time. 3. The first Thanksgiving is not a happy tradition. Turner once said, “For the most part, Thanksgiving itself is a day of mourning for Native people, not just Wampanoag people.”

Cite: “The Wampanoag Side of the First Thanksgiving Story.” IndianCountryToday.com, newsmaven.io/indiancountrytoday/archive/the-wampanoag-side-of-the-first-thanksgiving-story-TmMLTgQs40aJT_n9T3RMIQ/. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.72.213.185 (talk) 04:07, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

It is rather strange that a one-sided article as this can stay "protected". 85.148.244.121 (talk) 08:31, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

add others perspective to improve

Dear wiki

It's important to include other sources and add perspective from other people you can't spread the biased information around to the public there's following ways for you to improve this page

1.You should put the information from indigenous perspective 2.Do the research right and check out different information 3.Take advice from different sides of the story for example indigenous eat deer meat instead of turkey in the first place

For more information I recommend this website : https://newsmaven.io/indiancountrytoday/archive/the-wampanoag-side-of-the-first-thanksgiving-story-TmMLTgQs40aJT_n9T3RMIQ/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.72.213.185 (talk) 04:09, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

I agree that perspective is helpful for this article. Historically, Thanksgiving was only an official federal Holiday starting in 1870. There really is no way of deciding how to celebrate Thanksgiving. The United States did not exist prior to 1776. Prior to that year America was a combination of British colonies and Native Americans "Indians" were considered autonomous tribes or sovereign states. Did Parliament or any British sovereign recognize Thanksgiving during the colonial period, or was Thanksgiving truely an American tradition started by Native Americans and Pilgrims ? Why did President Jefferson not recognize or proclaim Thanksgiving ? I think the addition of Ulysses S. Grant to the article is appropriate. He was the president who made Thanksgiving a federal holiday. Cmguy777 (talk) 19:11, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 November 2021

Please incorporate some perspective on american Thanksgiving and include a reference to the National Day of Mourning that indigenous people have held for 52 years in Plymouth on this day. 2601:194:827F:4550:F031:2E7B:34E:9512 (talk) 15:44, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:48, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Native American Thanksgiving Traditions

This article needs to combine the Indigenous roots of the US holiday with Puritan/European roots, because the holiday is a combination of both as well. Per NPR: https://www.npr.org/2021/11/24/1055800954/thanksgiving-is-a-year-round-practice-of-giving-thanks

The true first Thanksgiving.

Tori-girl21 (talk) 18:32, 3 January 2022 (UTC)Tori J. The first thanksgiving. [ By: Tori J.]

We all know the tail about thanksgiving or do we? We’ve heard of the big feast between the pilgrims and the native americans but have we been told the truth? Have the schools lied to cover up what was once a tragedy and turned it into a heart-filled story? Was the first thanksgiving really like they taught us in school? To start, we are told a tale of how the pilgrims were sick of their home and fled to find a new place to live once they got to nowadays America they settled in and became friends with the native americans. The natives taught them how to live off the land. By the fall, the Pilgrims had their first harvest of crops. To give thanks, they celebrated a harvest feast that became the basis for what is now called Thanksgiving. The Native Americans joined, bringing deer to share. Fowl, fish, eel, shellfish, and cranberries were part of the table. That is what we were taught in school.

To continue, that's not what happened. I gathered much information but will only share some. The natives tried to keep their distance to the pilgrims but failed. Because they didn’t succeed the pilgrims took over, sending natives to equorpe to become slaves, and started a war. It is known as the King Philip’s War of 1675-76, the pilgrims killed thousands and right before they fested they killed over 700 natives it was a feast of their victory. So it wasn’t the sweet story we were told as children.

One last thing to know is who made thanksgiving. Well since the pilgrims didn’t who did and why? Abraham Lincoln actually made the first thanksgiving. He made it because after the war he wanted a day for everyone to be thankful for what they have, not what they want. In a nutshell, the schools lied to us about the first thanksgiving. I hope in the future students learn the correct story of the first thanksgiving. And the reason why it was invented. Now you know the truth about the first thanksgiving.

                                                  Resources: 

• Throughout the essay I used information gathered from these websites. *

                                  National Park Service Logo

National Park Service

https://www.nytimes.com/

https://www.good.is/articles/why-do-schools-continue-to-teach-an-oversimplified-thanksgiving-story

https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/holidays/thanksgiving-ideas/a33446829/thanksgiving-history/#:~:text=The True, Dark,and Native Americans.

Inflation

There is a note about the early 2020s inflation affecting prices going into 2021's Thanksgiving. How is this particular instance of inflation notable in any way, especially in the context of Thanksgiving? It certainly isn't the first time prices have spiked in the nation's history. Yes, a 14% price increase hurts for those having dinners, but it didn't mark any major, notable shift in Thanksgiving observance in the country. It seems like it's just complaining about inflation, which could be part of practically any topic affecting anything existing in 2021. —Onore Baka Sama^{(speak | stalk)} 17:56, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

"Thanksgiving weekend" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Thanksgiving weekend and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 November 24#Thanksgiving weekend until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. TartarTorte 15:08, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

Help in editing Simple English Wikipedia article

Before my involvement in the Simple English Wikipedia article of Thanksgiving (United States) that article just had what has been called "the legend of Thanksgiving" as its history with no mention of criticism or controversy (hardly a neutral point of view). I have added a short controversy section but I was wondering if anyone could help in writing a more detailed simplified explanation. Tk420 (talk) 22:35, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Food and Justice

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 17 August 2023 and 1 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): JBella2 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by JBella2 (talk) 17:05, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Unsupported Claim on Origin

"Thanksgiving has been celebrated nationally on and off since 1789, with a proclamation by President George Washington after a request by Congress[10]"

The source supports Washington's proclamation but doesn't support "after a request by Congress". Is there a better source that could be used? Traz64 (talk) 22:42, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Criticism/controversy section

Is all of this WP: DUE for the article? The section has continued to rapidly expand and it appears to present a lot of problems. There certainly has been criticism of Thanksgiving. But even among Native Americans it is predominately celebrated; I don't think it even meets the definition of a "significant minority" opinion. (Polling has suggested 90% still celebrate the Holiday.) Wouldn't a "see also" link to this stuff and a brief paragraph or so be way more representative? StardustToStardust (talk) 20:52, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Well for one, there's no need to blank the entire section @StardustToStardust. Philipnelson99 (talk) 20:54, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Are any of those perspectives "significant minority opinions"? For example, R.W. Jensen, seems like a fringe-academic from the Wikipedia article, particularly on his comments surrounding the 9/11 terror attacks. Of course Native American treatment should be mentioned. However, a lot of these things are WP: Fringe perspectives even among Native Americans, and doesn't seem to justify 1/6th of the article.

The rest is a miscellaneous assortment of complaints surrounding Christmas creep, a quote from Mark Twain, a group that probably isn't a "significant minority opinion" (American Association for the Advancement of Atheism), and a documentary. Maybe a paragraph like: In recent years there's been a National Day of Mourning by a minority of Native Americans, greater awareness of treatment, et al. would work. However, much of the other stuff seems like a kitchen sink of criticisms that don't seem due for the article, and I can't find analogous treatment in any other articles. (For example, Canada's Thanksgiving has received similar criticism, although editors seem to have intentionally excluded this from the article. If that's the case: I can't find justification for the differences in weight between both articles.)

What do you think? StardustToStardust (talk) 21:02, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

All of these issues do not justify blanking the entire section. See WP:PRESERVE.

WP:UNDUE refers to content within articles, not to comparisons between articles.

Please note that WP:CSECTION is not policy, nor does it advise simply deleting all criticism. Instead, it advises incorporating criticism in relevant sections. If there is an NPOV issue, there are templates like {{Criticism section}} that actually allow editors to improve the article. Wracking ^talk! 21:19, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

My solution is to condense the section into a paragraph or two and moving it to the history section. Would you support that change? I don't think much of the present content is DUE for the article. (Examples of which I mentioned above.)

I'm aware that WP: UNDUE doesn't apply between articles. I was just using the article on Canadian Thanksgiving to show why it comes across as such.StardustToStardust (talk) 21:31, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Then do that. The issue here is your wholesale removal of content, not the idea of condensing the criticism section. You didn't provide a solution in your edits, you simply deleted the text.

If you want to be more cautious (which might be a good idea), you could first work on the edits in your sandbox and then propose them on the talk page. Wracking ^talk! 21:36, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

How Wampanoag got there; source conflict

The article reads: "According to accounts by Wampanoag descendants, the harvest was originally set up for the Pilgrims alone; the surviving natives, hearing celebratory gunfire and fearing war, arrived to see the feast and were warmly welcomed to join the celebration, contributing their own foods to the meal."

It cites the WP article (published 2021), which reads: "Ousamequin and his men showed up only after the English in their revelry shot off some of their muskets. At the sound of gunfire, the Wampanoags came running, fearing they were headed to war. “One hundred warriors show up armed to the teeth after they heard muskets fired,” said Paula Peters. Told it was a harvest celebration, the Wampanoags joined, bringing five deer to share, she said. There was fowl, fish, eel, shellfish and possibly cranberries from the area’s natural bogs."

This is in tension with this NYT article (published 2017), which reads: "Possibly the most common misconception is that the Pilgrims extended an invitation to the Native Americans for helping them reap the harvest. The truth of how they all ended up feasting together is unknown. "The English-written record does not mention an invitation, and Wampanoag oral tradition does not seem to reach back to this event,” Ms. Sheehan said. But there are reasons the Wampanoag leader could have been there, she said, adding: “His people had been planting on the other side of the brook from the colony. Another possibility is that after his harvest was gathered, he was making diplomatic calls."

Is it the case that the oral tradition was uncovered in 4 years, that Ms Sheehan (spokesperson for Plimoth Patuxet) didn't know of the actual oral history, or that Paula Peters was attributing greater certainty than existed?

Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 14:27, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand why we're citing Wampanoag descendants rather than primary sources from the seventeenth century. john k (talk) 01:34, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Research Process and Methodology - FA24 - Sect 200 - Thu

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