Talk:Mwene Mbandu Kapova I of Mbunda

We need dates!

This is a dreadful biographical article. When did this guy live? (This is one of the first bios I've seen with no dates!) When were the events that defined his life? And how many children did he have? --Wally Tharg (talk) 19:45, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

@ Wally Tharg (talk), Check the article, I hope some of your questions have been answered. Other updates to follow. Ndandulalibingi (talk) 19:24, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Misuse of sources

About the sources on the Mbunda

• 1. René Pélissier: Editor Ndandulalibingi who included Pélissier has no access to this book, has never consulted it. The book was suggested to him and he has since used it on a number of occasions. The editor who suggested the book said "With regard to the Mbunda resistance to Portuguese occupation, I have just found a few pages in the volumous book on the Portuguese military campaigns in Angola, written by the French historian René Pélissier.", nothing more, as one can see here, but Ndandulalibingi keeps attributing all kinds of claims to this book without any knowledge of its content. To make it worse, somehow he got the recommendation of the book so wrong that he managed to combine two books into one each time he quotes Pélissier (cited 9 times, 6 times combining the two books into one). To that, he claims that "The references were introduced by Aflis (talk). He might have read the books, as you can see here. I also find problematic that an editor can suggest to another that it is okay to use a source willy-nilly without haing consulted it: "when citing Pélissier, you may want to specify his section "La révolte des Bunda", same reference as above. The other editor did just that.
• 2. Robert Papstein: For the sake of keeping things together, please consult discussion about Papstein here.

I thank you. Regards, Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 17:36, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) Now that you have opened this discussion again, I will respond by giving you an update of our continued research. Due to your continued disrespectful insinuations for our Mbunda oral research and the editing assistance we got from Dr. Robert Papstein, resulting in you calling him a "fringe author who writes on commission, including for the Mbunda Cultural Council to embellish Mbunda history", which disrespect you have now extended to Aflis, let me assure you that you do not know all about Angola and its ethnic groups. Your hate for anything Mbunda is not strange because it is the same hate the Portuguese colonialists and Missionaries who invented Ngangela language had for this ethnic group because of their bravery in defending their territory from colonialism.

René Pélissier was used because he quoted "Luís Figueira, Princesa Negra: O preço da civilização em África, Coimbra Edição do author, 1932" as a source about in writing about "La revolte des Bunda (1916-1917), pp. 408 - 412" (The Mbunda revolt - 1916-1917). To me that was confirmation enough of what is written in the "History and Cultural Life of The Mbunda Speaking People" book.

We are currently in position of the book: "Luís Figueira, Princesa Negra: O preço da civilização em África, Coimbra Edição do author, 1932". Relevant pages are currently being translated to English, for me to comprehend them before I use them as sources. However reports from Luanda claim that this book has a lot about Mwene Mbandu Lyothzi Kapova which you seem to be refuting. Its analysis of the Mbunda people is in contrast with your previous accusation that "I am elevating Mbunda above others over conquest". This book is actually adding to one of the independent sources cited here. It actually continues to guide that: "This book does not contain all concerning the life of the Mbunda, more is in another of Luis Figueira's books called 'Vidas Selvagens', claiming, that is the one containing information about the Mbunda, the Chokwe and the Luvale. If you are in doubt contact "[email protected]" in Luanda for more details in Portuguese language.

There is another book we are awaiting called: "Terras do antigo Luati", by Horácio A.R. de Carvalho, Mensário administrativo, 20/21, 1948, p. 63". Concerning Mwene Mbandu Lyondthzi Kapova, it has information that: "This man was forcibly taken by the Portuguese to Benguela (in 1917?), but fled from there, and apparently the Portuguese then lost his trace".

Now that Luís Figueira, Princesa Negra: O preço da civilização em África, Coimbra Edição do author, 1932 is in our position, we are currently pursuing the other three books: Miragem Africana, Terras do Antigo Luati, and Vidas Selvagens.

At the end of this exercise we will definitely prove you wrong that Dr. Robert Papstein is a fringe author and hope you will have respect for other people's research. You might be a good reviewer on Wikipedia as envisioned by some, but you have this one all wrong.

Please be advised also that the book you have mentioned in my statement in your preamble is not one of Dr. Papstein's books. He was only invited to edit the work. The book was researched and written by Cheke Cultural Writers Association which is now known as Cheke Cha Mbunda Cultural and Writers Association. I am surprised that this simple English cannot be understood by a person so close to the language as you, unless an editor is a researcher and a writer. Let me confirm it to you that Cheke Cha Mbunda Cultural and Writers Association are the owners of "The History and Cultural Life of The Mbunda Speaking People" and not Papstein.

I do not equally understand why my interest in exposing Mbunda history to the world for scrutiny should be suspicious to you. If I didn't you wouldn't be talking about Mbunda today. I have edited on Luvale, Lozi, Ngangela and other people articles, contributing what I know and correcting misconceptions from people like you, who think you are all knowing. Ndandulalibingi (talk) 12:21, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

In Summary:

• You confirm that you used Pélissier without ever even have swet eyes on it.
• You confirm that you used Figueira without ever even have swet eyes on it (however badly you bungled it and are trying to cover up).
• If the author of the book is not Papstein, but rather the Cheke Cultural Writers Association which is now known as Cheke Cha Mbunda Cultural and Writers Association, then even worse - it is a primary sourlce and everything coming out of it should be deleted.

Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 12:49, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

You surprise me as you are really full of yourself and contradictory. One time you say primary sources can be accepted to a certain degree and then vis versa. Based on that, you even tried to co-opt me in working with you on an article here even if based on primary sources. We all know about primary and secondary sources and a lot of time has been spent reflecting on this, both from administrator and Aflis. It is either you are always rushing to condemn without fully understanding or you are acting in defense. My statement above is clear, how I came across those sources and prompted to use them has been spelt out and you commented on it. What more do you want? Wait for me to give out what is contained in sources given above and see if it does not concur with my input.

I note with regret here that, due to your preconceived ideas, you have failed to distinguish between two different sources that have been used in my articles: 1). Robert Papstein, "The Central African Historical Research Project", in Harneit-Sievers, 2002, A Place in the World: New Local Historiographies from Africa and South Asia, p. 178 by Papstein and 2). Robert Papstein, 1994, The History and Cultural Life of the Mbunda Speaking People, Lusaka Cheke Cultural Writers Association, pages 79-81, ISBN 9982-03-006-X by Cheke Cultural and writers Association and edited by Papstein. I have no further time to spend on this. Ndandulalibingi (talk) 16:42, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

cleaning up Mbunda articles

For anyone new here, please consult the history of the full range of Mbunda artiles, such as Mbunda language, Mbunda people, Mbunda Kingdom and specifically discussions at Talk:Mbunda Kingdom, Talk:Mbunda language. Thanks for your cooperation. Regards, Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 11:37, 9 November 2016 (UTC)