Talk:Manx English

This article needs to be cleaned up.

"In use in 2021"

A number of terms have been added, or supplemented, with assertions that the terms are in use in 2021. Wikipedia requires references rather than original research, so an assertion that the term is "in use" should be backed up by a reference - typically something like an academic study, newspaper article or other definitive source. The additions about 2021 usage are currently marked with "citation needed" and should be removed if no citations can be provided. As a guideline, other Anglo-Manx phrases in the wiki are typically referenced with sources such as A.W. Moore's published work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.107.3.244 (talk) 12:49, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

There's been no improvement in the "in use in 2021" entries since concerns were raised about the lack of citations in 2022. I've removed the uncited entries for the moment. The entries can be replaced if they are linked to a reputable source on Anglo-Manx. This shouldn't just be a link to a Manx Gaelic dictionary entry, it should be to an entry in one of the Anglo-Manx Dictionaries, or to a reputable contemporary study on Anglo-Manx. 84.246.205.232 (talk) 16:53, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

"Down North"

the article is being repeatedly edited, most recently by Reddave, to replace the Anglo-manx "Down North" with the mainstream English "Up North". This is not correct - "Down North" is recognised Anglo-Manx usage, and the use of "Up North" is as a result of the loss of the Manx dialect in favour of West British.

Instances of "Down North" can be seen at :

http://www.gov.im/tourism/Special_Interest/july.xml - "The dolphins slowly wandered off in a southerly direction and we left them to continue their socializing. Later that month saw us surveying ‘down’ North – as we say here on Mann."

http://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/Drivers-face-roadworks-for-next.3203511.jp - "I think that this'magic machine' needs to be pointed at the road surfaces down North(historically, the agricultural 'end' of the Island)..."

http://www.agilitynet.com/international/isleofman_agilityislandstyle.html - "Since those of us ‘down north’ (Ramsey!) added agility to our training agenda some years ago, we have been really pleased with the interest in the sport."

http://imux.net/ - "I went camping with some friends and friends of friends down north of the island (north is "down" on the IoM)" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.254.65.167 (talk) 17:20, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Reminiscent of how it is on the mainland where we've always gone 'up' to the capital (i.e. London) - "I'm going up to London" - even though 'down south' and 'up north' are now prevalent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.149.75.92 (talk) 03:46, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

"Up to London" is never used in Scotland, although some anglified people use "down south" to refer to England. In the Outer Hebrides, I believe it is traditional usage for "down" to refer to going north. Elsewhere in Scotland, it depends on which way the rivers flow. (Which would explain this, because the far north of Mannin is very flat)--MacRusgail (talk) 19:22, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

This section seems to be repeatedly removed by Ehrenkater, despite the discussion here. Ehrenkater recently added a new section for "Down North" which I've removed as a duplicate. Ehrenkater asserted "The explanation that the north is lower than the south because the north has a lower altitude does not make sense. Of course places like Kirk Andreas are on a low plain, but not many people live there anyway, the centres of population in the south of the island such as Port Erin, Port St Mary and Castletown are at sea level and you can't get lower than that." This is a profound misunderstanding of the geology/demographics of the IOM since the north has a significant population (in IOM terms) including the town of Ramsey which is the second-largest on the island. Population is irrelevant in the discussion, though. I think the photo at http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1986293 explains it best - the photo is taken from the vicinity of the mountain road to Ramsey, and shows the contrast between the central hills and the glacial plain of the North - you HAVE to go down to go to the North of the island ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.246.201.248 (talk) 20:46, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

The 'explanation' for this phrase seems to be pure conjecture and therefore original research. Unless we can find a reliable source, it needs to go. In fact, since this article purports to be about a dialect, and 'down North' is nothing but an English phrase, also used elsewhere for travelling North, it's questionable whether the phrase should be here at all. And you shouldn't unilaterally decide to remove an editor's comment from a talk page without good reason. Mcewan (talk) 22:05, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

I disagree - it's not conjecture, or original research, as you can see from the references quoted above. I had good reason to remove the comment, as the editor created a duplicate section on "Down North" when one already existed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.246.201.248 (talk) 22:12, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

There are sources for the use of the phrase, no one is arguing that it's not used, but none yet for the almost certainly fanciful explanation about the 'geology' of the Island.

Please see the policy about editing others' talk page comments. You've deleted Ehrenkater's comment twice now, just because you felt he put it in the wrong place. At a stretch, you could have moved it, but outright deletion is a no-no.

Incidentally please indent talk pages replies (with a colon). Mcewan (talk) 22:30, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Editing one-upmanship aside, if there's no argument that it's not used, why is the entire entry being repeatedly removed, rather than just the "conjecture" on its usage ? It seems that "Down North" is being erased from the section on contemporary usage purely because one user dislikes the term. You'll note from the references that the users of the phrase thought it significant enough to comment upon, which highlights the difference between the usage of "Down North" on the island and "Up North" in Northern English dialects - "It's grim up North". This makes it significant enough to warrant an entry, even without speculation on its origins. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.246.201.248 (talk) 22:44, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

It's probably being removed on the basis that it's not really dialect, more just a local usage. Whatever, that's all moot and for me it's interesting enough and well-documented enough to remain. And your last edits have improved it greatly. Thanks. Mcewan (talk) 08:58, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Copyvio?

Please note published books are under copyright until 70 years after the author's death, not 70 years after publication. As such, the book most of this is taken from is probably still under copyright, unless the author died the same year as the book was published. It would probably be best to remove the direct quote until the author's year of death can be established. --Angr (tɔk) 17:00, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Okay according to this PDF document W. W. Gill's death was announced in newspapers on 3 January 1964, meaning his book is still under copyright. I'm removing the text of the first edit, as that seems to be copied word-for-word from the book. You can use the book as a source, but you do have to write it in your own words, not copy it. --Angr (tɔk) 20:52, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Yessir

I continually see this made out to be uniquely Manx, but it is recorded in the same sense in many other places. --MacRusgail 18:37, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

MacRuisgail, nobody is stating anywhere in the article that "Yes, Sir"/"Yessir" is uniquely Manx, and the references you're quoting have nothing to do with the Anglo-Manx usage of "Yessir" - they're associated with the English idiom "Yes, Sir" which is a completely different usage. Since I hear the phrase in use most days, I'm quite familiar with it.

Can I suggest that you cease editing the article in this manner since :

(a) Nobody is making this phrase out to be uniquely Manx anywhere in the article.

(b) You don't seem to understand that "Yessir" in the context of Anglo-Manx is not used as an alternate form of the English "Yes, Sir", it's solely used as a form of address, related to "Ussey" from Manx Gaelic. It's not the "same sense" that you record above.

(c) The references to American songs have nothing to do with Anglo-Manx usage, since there are obvious differences to the linguist between the English "Yes, Sir" and its contraction "Yessir", and the actual usage of the phrase "Yessir" in Anglo-Manx, which though it may be a homophone, is not the same idiom. Please don't confuse the two phrases and post lengthy external references to material which doesn't even refer to the same usage - it's pointing to a usage of "Yessir" that is not relevant to the article on Anglo-Manx.

24th July - MacRuisGail has edited the article again, with the usual references. I've removed the spurious links to "Yes, Sir that's my baby" etc. as "Yessir" is used as a form of address, not as an affirmative contraction of "Yes, Sir" as in mainstream/US English. Unfortunately the Anglo-Manx usage of "Yessir" is quite different to its usage as "Yessir" in mainstream/US English, and the two terms aren't the same. I would suggest that rather than editing the article to add spurious links to content that doesn't refer to Anglo-Manx usage, that changes to this entry are talked about on the "discussion" page first as there appears to be be some unfamiliarity with Anglo-Manx on MacRuisgail's part.

Dear Mr (?) Anonymous... none of the examples you've provided are uniquely Manx, as I keep on telling you. I'm well aware how Yessir is used in the IOM. Guess what? That usage appears elsewhere. Most of the referencing in this article, when it appears at all, is appalling anyway.--MacRusgail (talk) 14:59, 5 August 2012 (UTC) p.s. Please go to the Sandbox section, as it will help you to learn how to use Wiki.

I've read through the comments on this article, and spent a while earlier this week trying to add inline citations for as many terms as I could find in Moore's/Gill's books, and in Phil Kelly's Manx dictionary, where I couldn't find words elsewhere. Hopefully the referencing is now much better and I'd welcome comments on whether it's possible to remove the tag for the lack of inline citations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sacote (talk • contribs) 22:21, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Cushag

3rd August - a reference has been added today citing that the Cushag is not the national flower. An article on Anglo-Manx is not the place to add this reference, and all other sources (including the IOM Government at http://www.gov.im/isleofman/facts.xml#flower ) cite the Cushag as the national flower.

Skutch: A lot or a little

Skutch is defined as a quantity. Is it meant to be a lot or a little, both are quantities. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.6.94.217 (talk) 08:09, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I've adjusted the spelling to "Scutch" as this is the spelling recorded in Moore's book, which dates from 1924 and is pretty definitive on the subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sacote (talk • contribs) 22:21, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Language code

Is there actually an ISO language code for Manx English? My guess would be en-IM, but I haven't found a source for that. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 19:21, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Proposed merge with List of English words of Manx origin

The content of List of English words of Manx origin can be added to the Anglo-Manx phrases section of the Manx English page. HapHaxion (talk) 05:32, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

This is a good idea.1.126.106.170 (talk) 14:11, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Agree, merge. It is debatable whether these are English words anyway. ----Ehrenkater (talk) 05:38, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

As an alternative to deletion (which also would have been reasonable),   Y Merger complete. Klbrain (talk) 13:21, 30 July 2018 (UTC)