Talk:Major depressive disorder

Semi-protected edit request on 2 April 2023

This article must be flagged as having a geopolitical bias. It needs to be globalized beyond the United States and other English speaking countries or Europe. BennuPedia (talk) 20:34, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Lizthegrey (talk) 22:48, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Sourcing of Biomedical Content

You removed this: Research has found that unhappily married couples are at 3–25 times the risk of developing clinical depression.

in favor of this: Couples that are unhappily married have up to 25 times the risk of developing clinical depression.

That doesn't make sense.

You also removed: Should you have experienced four or more adverse childhood experiences, you're 3.2 to 4.0 times more likely to suffer from depression.

claiming it was referenced elsewhere, and more recently. The description of ACEs in the article does not say 3.2 to 4. And I find your issue about the publication date very vague. Lau737 (talk) 15:47, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

References

We discussed these at length on your talk page; once you've processed everything there, we can continue (I'll be away from computer for several hours). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:00, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

We assuredly did not bring up ACEs even once. And why you would bring back the "bad" statement after that lengthy discussion about how everything had to be secondary source, with review articles is beyond me. Lau737 (talk) 16:10, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

What we've talked about at your user talk is information included in these links:

• Template:Editnotices/Page/Major depressive disorder
• WP:MEDRS
• WP:MEDORDER
• WP:MEDDATE

Information about adverse childhood experiences is already in the article, cited to a newer and higher quality source. The information about unhappy marriages, as we discussed, needs secondary sourcing (it now has that, and is in the article using the citation style of this article).

I don't know what the "bad" statement is. Perhaps WP:ONUS and WP:SS will help; this is a broad overview article that has been community vetted, and we don't need to provide excess detail on well-established items like childhood adversity; such detail can probably find a home in a different article. We don't have to necessarily repeat information across multiple articles, and we don't have to repeat detail in a higher level article that may be covered in a sub-article. In terms of how much detail to include, we are governed by due weight (in this case, of the highest quality recent secondary sources). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:07, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

A statement like "four ACEs" increase the risk of depression 3.2 to 4.0 times is relevant to many pages like Major depressive disorder, Family disruption, or Happiness. It's not undue weight. Personally, I find the severity of the increase difficult to spot, even on the Adverse childhood experiences page.

I do not agree with rephrasing all those findings into "an unhappy marriage increases the risk of depression." That's just common sense. People are going to fill in the blank thinking it's 5%, or something, not 200% or 2400% times. It's just a bad way of conveying information

I referred to this edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Major_depressive_disorder&diff=1186986370&oldid=1186959348 in which you changed 3-25 to "up to 25" and pointed the references to Weissman (1987) via Goldfarb after you told me that you thought that the 25 times study was old.

You then proceeded to remove "25 times in its entirety," in an a subsequent edit described as " →‎Environmental: general"

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Major_depressive_disorder&diff=1186984595&oldid=1186986370 Lau737 (talk) 13:45, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Lau737 could you please read WP:TALK and WP:THREAD? Following talk page guidelines will make your posts easier for others to work through.

As per our discussion on your talk, I'm still waiting for a secondary source on the 3 to 25 (we have the 25 at Goldfarb), so I generalized the whole thing pending that. If you can provide a secondary source, I agree that expressing a range up to 25 is more useful.

Similar on the childhood adverse events: if you have more than a 15-year-old primary study for the content, "Should you have experienced four or more adverse childhood experiences, you're 3.2 to 4.0 times more likely to suffer from depression" (PMID 16311898), more detail can be added, but depending on due weight in broad overviews of major depression, that content might find a better home at Epigenetics of depression. This is a broad summary article; see WP:ONUS. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:33, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

The additional sources were already secondary: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Major_depressive_disorder&diff=1186959348&oldid=1186957111

They were presented on my talk page before inclusion. One is from the Journal of Marital and Family Therapy, so peer-reviewed, the other is from Couple and Family Psychology, so peer reviewed.

https://arammu.com/assets/research/MC Depression Outcomes.pdf

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4096140/

I think restricting the information to Epigenetics of depression ignores the psychological importance of adverse childhood experiences.

Lau737 (talk) 16:55, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Could you please see WP:THREAD (I have again threaded for you).

Both of those papers are primary studies. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:26, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

They are assuredly not. One is Fink et al. (2013) pointing to O-Leary et al. (1994), the other is Gray et al. (2019) which points to Whisman (1999). Lau737 (talk) 10:21, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

• PMID 31584721 (Gray) is a randomized controlled trial.
• PMID 25032063 (Fink) is a primary study, but the preamble does cite 10 to 25 to O'Leary.

So I wouldn't be averse to using the 10 to 25 times, but I still don't know where we're getting the three. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:17, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Yes they are primary studies in regard to their own conclusions, but they are secondary sources in regard to the conclusions of O'Leary and Whisman. Whisman concluded three times. Lau737 (talk) 11:25, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Extraordinary claim

Please provide a source for this extraordinary claim:

"Major depressive episodes often resolve over time, whether or not they are treated."

It is unsourced and dangerous. Why would people seek help if it resolves over time?

The citation immediately after the claim includes "Since major depression is often a self-limiting disorder that tends to resolve over time...". The claim as-is appears to have existed in the article since at least Feb 2022 so I am hesitant to adjust. Any suggestions are welcome.--Commander Keane (talk) 08:53, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

FA concerns

As part of WP:URFA/2020, this article has been noticed for WP:FAR in 2020 and 2022. Circling back onto it now, I see that the article has an "update needed" orange banner at the top of the page. Is anyone actively maintaining this article, and able to address this banner? If not, should this go to WP:FAR? Z1720 (talk) 02:16, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

@Z1720 Updating the information would just include changing some of the older referances (2014 and below) to newer ones. I don't believe SandyGeorgia is super active anymore but some other more recently active editors who have contributed to the article are Casliber, Boghog, and Cosmic Latte. Not sure if anyone else has interest in the article but I could help with updating the article as well. IntentionallyDense ^(Contribs) 13:59, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

@IntentionallyDense: I'm happy if editors step up to update the article. I point out the previous notices because it seems like this article is the type that needs constant monitoring and updating: if editors are willing to do so, that's great. If not, a discussion about its FA status might be warranted. I also think it would be really cool, after updates are complete, to nominate this for WP:TFA as it is an important topic of interest to many users. Z1720 (talk) 14:31, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Just saw this. I'll take a look (again) as well. And probably invite Tobiasi0 to take a look to see when they are statisfied with the updates and removing the tag. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:27, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Sounds good. If I get around to it today I can also try updating some of the citations. IntentionallyDense ^(Contribs) 19:50, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Okay to help with this I'm going to compile a list of refs that should ideally be replaced (excluding guidlines and historical articles per WP:MEDDATE:

ref 2: Richards CS, O'Hara MW (2014)

ref 4: Kessler RC, Bromet EJ (2013)

ref 7: Cooney GM, Dwan K, Greig CA, Lawlor DA, Rimer J, Waugh FR, et al.

ref 11: Global Burden of Disease Study

ref 12: Patton LL (2015)

ref 13: Fournier JC, DeRubeis RJ, Hollon SD, Dimidjian S, Amsterdam JD, Shelton RC, et al. (January 2010)

ref 14: Kirsch I, Deacon BJ, Huedo-Medina TB, Scoboria A, Moore TJ, Johnson BT (February 2008).

ref 19: Murray G (September 2007)

ref 20: "Insomnia: Assessment and Management in Primary Care".

ref 21, 24, : American Psychiatric Association 2000a

ref 23: Fisher JC, Powers WE, Tuerk DB, Edgerton MT (March 1975)

ref 26: Delgado PL, Schillerstrom J (2009).

ref 29: "Depression treatment for the elderly"

ref 30: Hankin BL, Abela JR (2005).

ref 34: Mann JJ, McGrath PJ, Roose SP, eds. (June 2013)

ref 35: Department of Health and Human Services (1999)

ref 36: Caspi A, Sugden K, Moffitt TE, Taylor A, Craig IW, Harrington H, et al. (July 2003).

ref 37: Haeffel GJ, Getchell M, Koposov RA, Yrigollen CM, Deyoung CG, Klinteberg BA, et al. (January 2008).

ref 38: Slavich GM (2004)

ref 39: Beck AT, Rush AJ, Shaw BF, Emery G (1979)

ref 42: Sullivan PF, Neale MC, Kendler KS (October 2000)

ref 43: Belmaker RH, Agam G (January 2008).

ref 46: Sullivan PF, Neale MC, Kendler KS (October 2000).

ref 48: Duncan LE, Keller MC (October 2011).

ref 50: Simon GE (November 2001)

ref 51: Clayton PJ, Lewis CE (March 1981).

ref 52: Kewalramani A, Bollinger ME, Postolache TT (1 January 2008).

ref 53: Rogers D, Pies R (December 2008).

ref 54: Botts S, Ryan M.

ref 55: Zingone F, Swift GL, Card TR, Sanders DS, Ludvigsson JF, Bai JC (April 2015).

ref 56: Brook DW, Brook JS, Zhang C, Cohen P, Whiteman M (November 2002).

ref 58: Melrose S (1 January 2015)

ref 60: Saveanu RV, Nemeroff CB (March 2012)

ref 63: Ruhé HG, Mason NS, Schene AH (April 2007).

ref 64: Delgado PL, Moreno FA (2000).

ref 65: Savitz JB, Drevets WC (April 2013).

ref 66: Hasler G (October 2010).

ref 67: Dunlop BW, Nemeroff CB (March 2007).

ref 68: Meyer JH, Ginovart N, Boovariwala A, et al. (November 2006).

ref 69: Davis KL, Charney D, Coyle JT, Nemeroff C, eds. (2002). ref 70: Adell A (April 2015).

ref 71: Andrews PW, Bharwani A, Lee KR, Fox M, Thomson JA (April 2015)

ref 72: Lacasse JR, Leo J (December 2005)

ref 74: Arana GW, Baldessarini RJ, Ornsteen M (December 1985).

ref 75: Varghese FP, Brown ES (August 2001).

ref 76: Lopez-Duran NL, Kovacs M, George CJ (2009)

ref 77: Dedovic K, Ngiam J (2015).

ref 79: Fond G, Loundou A, Hamdani N, Boukouaci W, Dargel A, Oliveira J, et al. (December 2014).

ref 80: Mayberg HS (1997). "Limbic-cortical dysregulation: a proposed model of depression".

ref 81: Graham J, Salimi-Khorshidi G, Hagan C, Walsh N, Goodyer I, Lennox B, et al. (2013).

ref 82: Hamilton JP, Etkin A, Furman DJ, Lemus MG, Johnson RF, Gotlib IH (July 2012).

ref 83: Krishnadas R, Cavanagh J (May 2012).

ref 84: Patel A (September 2013).

ref 85: Dowlati Y, Herrmann N, Swardfager W, Liu H, Sham L, Reim EK, et al. (March 2010).

ref 89: McNally L, Bhagwagar Z, Hannestad J (June 2008). ref 91: Kaufmann IM (1993).

ref 92: "Call for action over Third World depression". ref 93: Sharp LK, Lipsky MS (September 2002).

ref 94: Zimmerman M, Chelminski I, Posternak M (September 2004). ref 95: McPherson A, Martin CR (February 2010).

ref 96: Osman A, Bagge CL, Gutierrez PM, Konick LC, Kopper BA, Barrios FX (December 2001)

ref 97: Cepoiu M, McCusker J, Cole MG, Sewitch M, Belzile E, Ciampi A (January 2008)

ref 98: Dale J, Sorour E, Milner G (2008).

ref 99: Orengo CA, Fullerton G, Tan R (October 2004).

ref 101: Reid LM, Maclullich AM (2006).

ref 102: Katz IR (1998)

ref 103: Wright SL, Persad C (December 2007).

ref 104, 105, 106, 117: Sadock 2002

ref 108: Gruenberg AM, Goldstein RD, Pincus HA (2005)

ref 113: Diagnostic Criteria for Major Depressive Disorder and Depressive Episodes"

ref 114: Parker GF (1 June 2014).

ref 116: Parker 1996

ref 119: Carta MG, Altamura AC, Hardoy MC, Pinna F, Medda S, Dell'Osso L, et al. (June 2003)

ref 120: Rapaport MH, Judd LL, Schettler PJ, Yonkers KA, Thase ME, Kupfer DJ, et al. (April 2002).

ref 128: Cuijpers P, van Straten A, Smit F, Mihalopoulos C, Beekman A (October 2008)

ref 133: Muñoz RF, Beardslee WR, Leykin Y (May–June 2012).

ref 134: Cuijpers P (20 September 2012)

ref 135: Griffiths KM, Farrer L, Christensen H (2010).

ref 136: Cuijpers P, Muñoz RF, Clarke GN, Lewinsohn PM (July 2009).

ref 142: Patel V, Araya R, Bolton P (May 2004)

ref 144: Josefsson T, Lindwall M, Archer T (April 2014)

ref 145: Bridle C, Spanjers K, Patel S, Atherton NM, Lamb SE (September 2012).

ref 146: Lopresti AL, Hood SD, Drummond PD (May 2013)

ref 147: Taylor G, McNeill A, Girling A, et al. (February 2014)

ref 148: Khan A, Faucett J, Lichtenberg P, Kirsch I, Brown WA (30 July 2012).

ref 149: Thase ME (1999)

ref 150: Cordes J (2013).

ref 153: Cuijpers P, van Straten A, Smit F (December 2006).

ref 155: Childhood Depression.

ref 157: Becker SJ (2008).

ref 158: Almeida AM, Lotufo Neto F (October 2003).

ref 159: Paykel ES (February 2007)

ref 161: Beck et al. 1987

ref 162: Coelho HF, Canter PH, Ernst E (December 2007)

ref 163: Khoury B, Lecomte T, Fortin G, et al. (August 2013).

ref 164: Jain FA, Walsh RN, Eisendrath SJ, Christensen S, Rael Cahn B (2014).

ref 165: Simkin DR, Black NB (July 2014)

ref 167: Dworetzky J (1997).

ref 168: Doidge N, Simon B, Lancee WJ, et al. (2002)

ref 169: Barlow & Durand 2005,

ref 170: de Maat S, Dekker J, Schoevers R, et al. (2007).

ref 175: Thase ME (December 2006).

ref 176: Royal Pharmaceutical Society of Great Britain 2008

ref 177: Whooley MA, Simon GE (December 2000).

ref 178: Zisook S, Rush AJ, Haight BR, Clines DC, Rockett CB (February 2006).

ref 179: Papakostas GI, Thase ME, Fava M, Nelson JC, Shelton RC (December 2007)

ref 180: Duff G (31 May 2006)

ref 192: Nelson JC, Devanand DP (April 2011).

ref 193: Palmer BF, Gates JR, Lader M (November 2003).

ref 194: Guaiana G, Barbui C, Hotopf M (July 2007).

ref 195: Anderson IM (April 2000)

ref 196: Krishnan KR (2007).

ref 197: Bonnet U (2003).

ref 199: Hammad TA (16 August 2004)

ref 201: Gunnell D, Saperia J, Ashby D (February 2005).

ref 202: Fergusson D, Doucette S, Glass KC, et al. (February 2005).

ref 203: Stone M, Laughren T, Jones ML, et al. (August 2009).

ref 204: FDA Proposes New Warnings About Suicidal Thinking, Behavior in Young Adults Who Take Antidepressant Medications

ref 205: Pharmaceuticals and Medical Devices Safety Information

ref 216: Cipriani A, Hawton K, Stockton S, Geddes JR (June 2013).

ref 217: Nolen-Hoeksema, Susan. (2014)

ref 219: Corp SA, Gitlin MJ, Altshuler LL (September 2014)

ref 223: Rudorfer, MV, Henry, ME, Sackeim, HA (2003).

ref 224: Beloucif S (April 2013).

ref 226: Dierckx B, Heijnen WT, van den Broek WW, Birkenhäger TK (March 2012).

ref 227: Jelovac A, Kolshus E, McLoughlin DM (November 2013)

ref 228: Surgeon General (1999)

ref 229: Committee on Electroconvulsive Therapy (2001).

ref 230: Pompili M, Dominici G, Giordano G, et al. (December 2014).

ref 232: Abbott CC, Gallegos P, Rediske N, Lemke NT, Quinn DK (March 2014)

ref 234: Melkerson MN (16 December 2008).

ref 235: Lefaucheur JP, André-Obadia N, Antal A, et al. (November 2014).

ref 238: Rush AJ, Marangell LB, Sackeim HA, et al. (September 2005)

ref 242: Giedke H, Schwärzler F (October 2002).

ref 249: Fava GA, Park SK, Sonino N (November 2006).

ref 250: Limosin F, Mekaoui L, Hautecouverture S (November 2007)

ref 251: Eaton WW, Shao H, Nestadt G, et al. (May 2008)

ref 252: Holma KM, Holma IA, Melartin TK, Rytsälä HJ, Isometsä ET (February 2008).

ref 253: Kanai T, Takeuchi H, Furukawa TA, et al. (July 2003).

ref 254: "Depression, Major: Prognosis".

ref 255: Culpepper L, Muskin PR, Stahl SM (September 2015)

ref 256: Geddes JR, Carney SM, Davies C, et al. (February 2003).

ref 257: Posternak MA, Miller I (October 2001).

ref 258: Posternak MA, Solomon DA, Leon AC, et al. (May 2006).

ref 259:Whiteford HA, Harris MG, McKeon G, et al. (10 August 2012).

ref 260: Cassano P, Fava M (October 2002).

ref 263: Strakowski S, Nelson E (2015)

ref 264: Blair-West GW, Mellsop GW (June 2001).

ref 265: Oquendo MA, Bongiovi-Garcia ME, Galfalvy H, et al. (January 2007).

ref 266: Rush AJ (2007).

ref 267: Swardfager W, Herrmann N, Marzolini S, et al. (September 2011).

ref 268: Schulman J, Shapiro BA (2008)

ref 269: "WHO Disease and injury country estimates".

ref 272: Kuehner C (September 2003).

ref 274: Eaton WW, Anthony JC, Gallo J, et al. (November 1997)

ref 275: Rickards H (March 2005)

ref 176: Alboni P, Favaron E, Paparella N, Sciammarella M, Pedaci M (April 2008).

ref 277: Strik JJ, Honig A, Maes M (May 2001)

ref 278: Gelder, M, Mayou, R and Geddes, J (2005)

ref 280: Mathers CD, Loncar D (November 2006).

ref 281: Andrews G (July 2008).

ref 282: Kessler RC, Nelson CB, McGonagle KA, et al. (June 1996).

ref 283: Hirschfeld RM (December 2001).

ref 284: Grant BF (1995)

ref 285: Boden JM, Fergusson DM (May 2011).

ref 286: Hallowell EM, Ratey JJ (2005).

ref 287: Brunsvold GL, Oepen G (2008).

ref 288: Melartin TK, Rytsälä HJ, Leskelä US, Lestelä-Mielonen PS, Sokero TP, Isometsä ET (February 2002)

ref 291: Bair MJ, Robinson RL, Katon W, Kroenke K (November 2003).

ref 292: Yohannes AM, Baldwin RC (2008)

ref 310: Maloney F (3 November 2005)

ref 311: Karasz A (April 2005).

ref 312: Tilbury F, Rapley M (2004).

ref 313: Parker G, Cheah YC, Roy K (June 2001).

ref 322: Andreasen NC (2008).

ref 323: Simonton DK (2005).

ref 328: Jorm AF, Angermeyer M, Katschnig H (2000)

ref 329: Paykel ES, Tylee A, Wright A, et al. (June 1997).

ref 330: Paykel ES, Hart D, Priest RG (December 1998)

That's all for now. Feel free to edit my comment to cross off items on this list. IntentionallyDense ^(Contribs) 22:13, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Oh cool. Some will be able to be updated and some won't - will start looking soon. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:43, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Yeah I didn't really pay a lot of attention to how all of the sources were used so some may be fine as is. Some of these (such as the dsm 4 refs) should be easy as newer editions of the books have been published since. Another strategy would be to see what papers cite the studies and update from there. IntentionallyDense ^(Contribs) 04:26, 22 November 2024 (UTC)