Talk:Macaron

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Origin of Macaroni

• Macaron recipe came from Italy, the chefs of Catherine de Medici brought the recipe to France at the time of Catherine's marriage to Henry II of France. [1]
• Connection with Nancy is that, the granddaughter of Catherine de Medici in Nancy was supposedly saved from starvation by eating them.
• The double sided version of the Macaron was made first by Ladurée's grandson Pierre Desfontaines in 1930 [2]

Any further information is welcome. STTW (talk) 09:06, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

The story that Catherine de Medici came to France with chefs and recipes is a myth and utter nonsense. She had no influence at all at the French court untill years later, when she started having children and het husband, the second son of François I became the dauphin when his brother, the Dauphin François, died. Only then she could become queen, but the real power was in hands of Henri's misstress. Only after Henri died she gained real influence. The food at the French court had nothing to do with Catherine until then! Johannes van Dam —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.250.199.119 (talk) 10:27, 11 February 2008 (UTC) King Louis the XIVth was offered macarons just before his wedding in St Jean de Luz in 1659 by the still existing Maison Adam. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.149.94.34 (talk) 16:07, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

A bit of history The Macaron cookie was born in Italy, introduced by the chef of Catherine de Medicis in 1533 at the time of her marriage to the Duc d'Orleans who became king of France in 1547 as Henry II. The term "macaron" has the same origin as that the word "macaroni" -- both mean "fine dough". http://www.madmacnyc.com/history-of-macarons

Macaron cookies were born in Italy, the term macaron means "Fine Dough". http://www.thetalesofmycooking.com/2013/01/french-macaroons-first-timers-story.html --87.6.85.85 (talk) 10:21, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

References

Merge with Macarooni

The Macaroon article says "The English word macaroon comes from the French macaron..." and describes a very similar cookie. As an American I've often eaten macaroons but I've never heard the word macaron, and apparently it's just a language difference. In my experience, Wikipedia doesn't have a separate article for a foreign word for something, redescribing the same object. Art LaPella 17:48, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Based on what I've seen of the pictures from the two articles, the Macaron and the Macaroon look very different and should probably be kept separate; unless someone wants to demarcate that they are different styles like in the pound cake article. SailorAlphaCentauri 16:44, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Despite the similarity of the name the two cakes are pretty different; the macaron is similar to a meringue, a macaroon is much denser with coconut. SgtThroat 18:19, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

My wife is French and I'm British - we agree that macarons and macaroons are not quite the same thing - although they are sufficiently similar things with sufficiently similar names that there absolutely must be some connection. However, there should at least be a mention of Macaroon in the Macaron article and vice-versa because we have two almost identical names for two very similar things and the scope for confusion in our readership is huge. SteveBaker 18:50, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

None of you suggested merging and all of you seem to know something I don't, so I removed my merge tag. Art LaPella 21:13, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

This article should absolutely NOT be merged. The macaroon and the macaron are quite different. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.118.233.134 (talk) 22:02, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. The two SHOULD be merged.

First of all, the macaroon article is incorrect in stating that the English word macaroon was derived from the Italian, not the French. Look it up in Webster's - http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/macaroon - and you'll see that the English term came into usage around 1611 directly from the French; it was the French word macaron that was derived from the Italian maccarone.

Second, the English word macaroon is used to describe several different kinds of cookie. Yes, it can describe a dense coconut cookie. But it can also describe a lighter, almond cookie, which is noted in the macaroon article. This can either be a single cookie dropped onto a sheet (such as the one whose photo appears in the article as "Turkish") or it can also be the French style, with two cookies made into a sandwich with a filling of buttercream or ganache. The latter style is often called a "French macaroon", in many stores as well as by major pastry chefs such as Gale Gand in her recipe at http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/gale-gand/french-macaroons-recipe/index.html Even this store in France that makes them writes about them in English using the word "macaroon" - http://www.laduree.fr/public_en/historique/histoire_macaron.htm.plus.htm You can find many, many more citations for "French macaroons" all over the internet as well as in many bakeries.

Bottom line: The English word is "macaroon", the French word is "macaron". The sandwich-style popularized in France is properly called a macaroon in English. A "macaron" or "French macaroon" is one type of macaroon; other types include the non-sandwich version made from almonds, as well as the dropped version made from coconuts. For this reason, the two articles in Wikipedia should ABSOLUTELY be merged, with the French style (and term "macaron") as one of the various types of macaroons. Nsxtasy —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nsxtasy (talk • contribs) 04:55, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

However you spell it (and I prefer macaron) the two articles should not be merged. The biscuits are entirely different, one rough, haystack -like and mixed with coconut. The others are dainty, smooth, more often than not coloured and sandwiched with filling. One is not a variation of the other, they have a similar beginning, with a meringue base, but then they go their separate ways. Hence the reason I also prefer the spelling "macaron" which clearly distinguishes one form the other.

I also strongly disagree that the two articles should be merged. In the article titled "Macaroon", section "French"

"See main article at macaron." should actually be changed. The Coconut cookie that is referred to is actually called a "Congolais" in French, not a "Macaron" or a "Macaroon". Further, the history, ingredients, flavor, color, aesthetics, mouthfeel are very different, although they do both contain whipped egg whites and sugar. Still further, the French Macaron popularized by Laduree, is now widely available in America, at least in New York, San Francisco and Los Angeles and is called a "macaron" Merging the two would create confusion and be presumptuous. --Dougcweho (talk) 18:04, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

And while I acknowledge the Laduree websites translation of "macaron; French" to macaroon: English" it is incorrect word usage based on the above. Language is a living and changing medium which is dictated by popular, understandable usage and mutually understandable definitions. Acknowledging "macaron: French" as "macaron: English" creates better labelling of the subject not less and Laduree should be advised as such.--Dougcweho (talk) 18:43, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Having two different articles about cookies with the basically the same name (both derived from the same word and both potentially spelled the same way) is outright confusing. And the two articles do not cross-refer very well. I came looking for information on the coloured French variety but spent 5 minutes staring at the almond cookie article wondering if the local variety in my neighbourhood called "macaroons" was just a misnomer or quirk (turns out only the spelling was quirky). Additionally, the almond cookie article *already lists half a dozen varieties*. These two articles should be merged or it's only going to lead to unending confusion. Mattisgoo (talk) 05:55, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

The names may be similar and may be derived from the same place but the two words are different and are used to describe two completely different desserts. Here in Australia macaroons are most certainly a lumpy baked coconut meringue affair. The delicious French-style almond-meringue sandwich cookies are macarons. Confusing the two terms causes outrage - see http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/television/macaron-or-macaroon-masterchef-judges-should-know-better-says-chef-adriano-zumbo/story-e6frfmyi-1225888714729 121.44.130.48 (talk) 01:04, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

I am English and live in France and have always called these macaroons. It's the English translation of (Fr) macaron. Yes, the coconut style biscuit is also called a macaroon in English, and yes there is confusion, which is why the French loan word can also be used with a single o, but it is not Wikipedia's job to pretend macaroons are actually properly called macarons in English, in a misguided and wholly cynical attempt to alter the English language in order to fit the constraints of an HTML-page information sorting and display system. It's a shame that as Wikipedia has become the dominant information authority on the planet it has shifted from being descriptive to proscriptive. I guess all power corrupts. See the BC debate for a more egregious example of this language meddling. Perhaps in Australia (do we really have to defer to the Australians in English usage? Wow, the world has really been turned on its head!) and the US these are called macarons (any Americans care to chip in?) but in the UK, the typical usage, at least until very recently, is macaroon http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/macaroon.

References

I'll chip in. The macaron is made with ground almonds, icing sugar, and beaten egg whites, while the macaroon is made with almond flour, icing sugar, and beaten eggs whites. While they might be slightly different in appearance, you can't tell one from the other in a blind taste test. In America, macaron is a marketing term used by trendy boutique bakeries to sell high-priced macaroons to fashionistas -- the same people who were buying designer cupcakes and flavored vodkas ten years ago, and will be jumping on another food fad ten years from now.209.137.134.50 (talk) 17:38, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Flavors

Rose and violet flavors? Sounds like it could use some elaboration. --Scottandrewhutchins 15:20, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

• I have removed the flavor list - it was not comprehensive, and it would be futile to try to make it so. The range varies by store and season immensely. What is the use of listing all of the flavors of ice cream? - as a parallel example. - AKeen (talk) 04:50, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

External links

I have removed most of the external links. It is unnecessary to have links to every macaron-seller in the world. - AKeen (talk) 23:23, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Again this section was getting cluttered, so I removed it - other than Laduree and maybe a few others, most macaron places are not noteworthy. - AKeen (talk) 04:52, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Do not put amazon affiliate links. Sam613 (talk) 11:02, 30 May 2012 (UTC) HOW ARE MOON PIES ANYTHING LIKE MACARONS? moon pies are awful. macarons are classy, even cute. as a person from the US with any sense of class, i have to let you know that moon pies are not even on a similiar level to macarons. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.252.19.40 (talk) 10:25, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

"In popular Culture"

The second point in this section sounds like it belongs in a teen girl's blog. Also accessories of most pastry/dessert/candy items are popular in Asia. Remove or edit.Terukiyo (talk) 23:57, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

History of the "double" macaron

I´ve followed the history of this article and it has two conflicting statements.

1. ) The history as presented by Ladurée on their homepage, talking about the double filled macaron as a creation of Pierre Desfontaines in the 1930.
2. ) The history given by [3] claiming that:

Adding jam, liquors, spices, the macarons shells will be put together two-by-two in the 1830s and, at the end of the 19th century, is created the "parisian macaron", also called "Gerbet". Thus, the macaron that is known today is the macaron called "Gerbet" that was born in the 1880s in the Belleville neighbourhood of Paris. I will put two fact-templates in the text./Johan Jönsson (talk) 18:35, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Popularity (in the United States)

This section is highly inaccurate. First of all, "cosmopolitan cities, notably Tokyo, Singapore, Sydney and Melbourne" doesn't make sense. There are two cities listed as "cosmopolitan" in Australia and none in the United States or South America. New York is in the United States and is listed along with London as THE Alpha World cities, well above Melbourne's listing as a Beta city.

Also the "macaron remains relatively unknown in the United States" is redundant, with the line "New York has recently witnessed a surge in macaron shops" and according to a list made in YELP.com, there are 80 places to get Macarons in NYC. The recently closed "Fauchon" in New York had been selling Macarons for the past 20 or so years.

In Los Angeles where I live, there are several places to get them and are very popular. A quick google search of "macarons" "chicago" (also Boston and San Francisco) brings up numerous references also.--DCX (talk) 19:56, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Italian word “maccarone” does not mean paste....

This sentence is wrong. Maccarone and macaroni word origin comes from "maccare" which means to "bruise, batter, crush" since the cookie uses crushed almonds, it is easy to see how there is a connection. "Macaroni" was also 18th century slang for a fancy item as in the lyrics "put a feather in his cap and called it "macaroni".

"Pasta", "Patisserie" and "Paste" have more similar etymology than "maccarone".

Also- the footnote reference does not say "maccarone means paste"...--99.41.172.224 (talk) 21:24, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

I noticed this too. From what I read in the OED, finding to origin of the word in the Italian maccare is a false etymology that apparently linguists no longer believes to be true. That dictionary states in the article on "macaroni":

The etymology < Italian maccare to bruise favoured by many earlier scholars is now usually rejected on morphological grounds.

Because of this, I will remove the claim from the article.--Amphipolis (talk) 14:02, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

To avoid it being pulled in and out of the article, it would be wise to note what you have written above: that one earlier thought it to come from maccare. /Johan Jönsson (talk) 10:33, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Size and colors

The article doesn't mention the size of the cookies. As it is, this page is linked to the Dutch page NL:Bitterkoekje. Those cookies are about 4 cm in diameter and aren't made with food coloring. If neither of the properties size and color coincide, I'm going to remove te translation link but I don't think I've ever seen this product as described in this article. --MooNFisH (talk) 08:42, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

merge with, or at the very least "see also" Whoopie_pie

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whoopie_pie

While I am not well versed on this subject, it seems foolish that here is no mention of the nearly identical whoopie pie in this article. Considering how both names are now becoming seemingly interchangeable in standard language, perhaps a brief section listing the differences between the two is called for. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.250.245.59 (talk) 07:17, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

I disagree with this, a whoopie pie is a cake sandwich made normally with wheat flour, and tastes almost identical to what Americans refer to as simply "cake". A french Macaron is completely different, a meringue and almond flour affair, with very little filling. They couldn't be more dissimilar and still be a 'sandwich cookie'. Chandell (talk) 20:05, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

One is a meringue and the other is a cake, but I think they look similar enough to warrant a spot in the 'see also' section along with alfajor. I have added it. static shakedown ʕ •ᴥ•ʔ 15:21, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Photograph of single Macaron at top is of a somewhat unusual Macaron - Change suggested

There should be a more typical Macaron in the initial photograph that hits the eyes. This Macaron, in addition to being green colored, has about four times as much filling as typical Macarons, recipes often call for just one teaspoon of filling, a dallop the size of a couple of chickpeas. The green Macaron has what looks to be a tablespoon and a half of filling, possibly giving folks the notion that these sandwich cookies typically have "a lot" of filling, which is incorrect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chandell (talk • contribs) 20:11, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

I´m with you on this one. Ok, the many colours are kind of signatory for the macaron but can´t we have a single old-school unflavoured french macaron on top. There will be plenty of colour-explosions further down. /Johan Jönsson (talk) 21:26, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Sample Recipe

Can someone clarify what is meant by: "3 large egg whites at room temperature and preferably aged up to 3 days"?

Does this mean the egg white should be at room temperature for three days inside or outside the shell? I cook a lot and have never heard the term "aged egg whites." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.74.241.69 (talk) 20:17, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

It surely means "the white of three large, very fresh eggs" where very fresh means up to three days since being laid. As you cook a lot you have observed that the fresher the egg, the firmer its white - and that many recipes urge the use of really fresh eggs. In most cases older eggs can be used, but the texture of the finished dish may not turn out as light as with very fresh eggs.

Guffydrawers (talk) 17:22, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

French or Italian?

The article has for a long time stated in several places within the text and in the infobox that macarons are French. However, recently a handful of IPs have been changing it to say Italian instead. I have been reverting because the IPs have only been changing one of the claims, creating an inconsistency within the article. Also, this change appears to be against long term consensus. Any opinions about this? Deli nk (talk) 11:45, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

There are not biscuits called macaron in Italy, the words are realted but the biscuit macaron can only be found in France in different regions. Xiaomichel (talk) 11:26, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

"Common flavors" - selected on what basis?

If you take a look at [4], you'll see that we have images for a whole lot of additional flavours, so I'm wondering on what basis it was decided that, for instance, pistachio, which I believe to be found in just about every macaron assortment on the planet, should be excluded, or that neither orange nor lemon should be shown. As a side-effect, before my edit today, all the colours shown were quite earthy, but as a set, macarons tend to be colourful. I'm not sure how canonical pink peppercorn is, but even including rose, pistachio and lemon, for instance, could help with making that point. The bottom line though, to my question, is, do we have a criterion for determining inclusion of flavours, or was it just one editor indicating a personal preference? Samsara 15:46, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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'Macaroon' as alternative term for 'macaron'

It is reasonable to have the separate articles macaron and macaroon, as they are different kinds of biscuit. However, there is variation in the terms used to describe these two things. For example, see Prof. Jurafsky's article on the subject:

• http://www.slate.com/articles/life/food/2011/11/macarons_macaroons_and_macaroni_the_curious_history.single.html?via=gdpr-consent

Examples of people using the term 'macaroon' to refer to the Parisian sandwich biscuit:

• https://missmacaroon.co.uk/
• https://www.angesdesucre.com/blogs/anges-de-sucre/14017793-macaron-vs-macaroon-whats-in-a-name-anyway
• https://www.marksandspencer.com/chocolate-macaroon-assortment-24-pieces-/p/p60069379

I have tried to update my previous edit to make it clearer that there is varation in the use of the terms 'macaron' and 'macaroon'.

Freelance Intellectual (talk) 09:39, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 June 2021

151.47.205.103 (talk) 12:18, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Simply, they have been created by an italian so they are italian, it doesnt matter the place where it happened, while the author. An italian so they are italians

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:47, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

791 or 1791?

In different passages the article cites Larousse Gastronomique as the source for stating that macaron were invented in Cornery convent in 791 and 1791. It should be the fault of the actual sources (New York Times and BBC/Serious Eats) quoting Larousse this way. We should decide which of the sources is more trustworthy. Deinocheirus (talk) 01:51, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Actually this is a mistake by a previous editor. The sources agree that it's 791--That is, the Times and Larousse Gastronomique [5] both say 791 and the other two sources talk about the much later "macaron sisters" during the French Revolution, which confusingly involves an event in 1792. I'll clean up the article. Dan Bloch (talk) 16:32, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Origin

The source Larousse Gastronomique says, literally "the recipe originally came from Italy" and the 791 hypothesis is considered a legend. I argue the origin should be changed to Italy or that at least should be added 79.54.217.132 (talk) 09:27, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Larousse

The encyclopedia clearly states it's from Italy https://archive.org/details/laroussegastrono0000mont_r4y9/page/639/mode/1up?view=theater&q=791 citing France as a POSSIBLE origin. I think Italy can be put in the infobox 79.31.18.64 (talk) 19:33, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

You can read this:

https://www.gamberorosso.it/notizie/caterina-de-medici-cucina/

and this:

https://books.google.fr/books?id=JUChEAAAQBAJ&redir_esc=y

It is already cited in the article. The legend about Medici bringing macaron to France had been debunked by historians. 81.185.174.26 (talk) 09:06, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Again, read https://archive.org/details/laroussegastrono0000mont_r4y9/page/639/mode/1up?view=theater&q=791, it doesn't cite Catherine at all, but it does indicate Italy a possible origin. And it's cited in the text. So Italy can be put as a possible origin 62.211.180.100 (talk) 09:08, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

So? Did you read it? 62.211.180.100 (talk) 09:14, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

So? Did you read the source? 62.211.180.100 (talk) 08:29, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

This is a very old source of the beginning of the 19th century. This is now considered as a legend, consider more recent sources from contemporary historians as indicated before. 77.205.40.206 (talk) 20:10, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

This is a Larousse of 1988, cited in the text as a valid source and no, the legend is the macaron in 791 according to the Encyclopedia 62.211.180.100 (talk) 21:11, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

It is the edition from Prosper Merimee, it dates from 1938, and it is not a book of history anyway.

Read this book, from 2022, made by historians:

https://books.google.fr/books?id=JUChEAAAQBAJ&redir_esc=y 77.205.18.165 (talk) 21:27, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

And? It is an encyclopedia anda listed and valid source. That, again, DOES NOT MENTION Catherine 62.211.155.242 (talk) 07:32, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

The legend about macaron coming from Italy is always linked to Catherine, they say during renaissance, so it makes sense. Anyway, you have recipes from the 10th century in this French monastery, only this should be make you stop to insist with this legend. 77.205.18.170 (talk) 07:58, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Larousse gastronomie cited the French monastery as a Legend and Italy as the original country. It's in the source. You cannot just ignore whawritten in the source 62.211.155.242 (talk) 08:10, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Tell me what do you think about my last edition please 77.205.18.170 (talk) 08:11, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

That it's not good. It change the name of an encyclopedia to "some Historian" and cite Larousse gastronomy who DOESN'T say that 62.211.155.242 (talk) 08:16, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

I added a general sentence in History section 77.205.18.170 (talk) 08:04, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Guys, don't create edit wars! JacktheBrown (talk) 09:12, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm not trying to created edit wars, but the text said Larousse Gastronomy, he changed it, but kept the link that clearly states Italy as possible origin 62.211.155.242 (talk) 15:37, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

For future reference: Larousse's entry for "macaroon" would cover both macaroon and macaron. Tracing the history to Italy and to the Cormery monastery in 791 predates the invention of the modern "macaron"/"French macaroon" which is the subject of this article. Freelance Intellectual (talk) 11:41, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

@95.248.34.201: the consensus is that the kind of macaron covered by this article was created by Pierre Desfontaines or Claude Gerbet in modern France. The history section covers other almond-based cakes that appeared earlier. Please self-revert, and discuss here if you would like to further discuss the Larousse reference to 791 and how it can be covered in the article. I'm tagging Danbloch who was part of the previous discussion. Freelance Intellectual (talk) 12:04, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Link to Pierre Desfontaines incorrect

The link to the Wikipedia page of Pierre Desfontaines, a possible creator of the macaron sandwich at Laduree in the 20th century, according to the history section, links to a french philosopher that died in 1745. This must be in error. 76.119.104.238 (talk) 00:58, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Fixed, thanks. Dan Bloch (talk) 15:55, 3 July 2024 (UTC)