Talk:List of 1990s American television episodes with LGBT themes

Non-free images

Wikipedia’s non-free content policy strongly discourages the use of unlicensed images. Among its restrictions, “Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding.” As a test of whether the images in this article were usable under that policy, I nominated one of the screenshots for deletion here. The consensus was that the image did not add significant value to the article, and it was deleted. The other screenshots in this article have the same problem; so I am removing them. —teb728 t c 05:18, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

• Just because you don't get that the images significantly contribute to the average reader's understanding of the subject doesn't give you carte blanche to remove them all. Maybe your understanding is more limited than the average reader's, no real way to tell. Regardless, please do not unilaterally remove these images as if there is some consensus for their removal because, you know what? There isn't. Otto4711 (talk) 07:03, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

• Do you deny there was a consensus to delete at Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2009 February 4#1991 Beverly Hills 90210.jpg? Everybody (except you) said the use was not significant. Assuming you admit that consensus, why are the other images more worthy of being kept? —teb728 t c 06:25, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

• If you feel compelled to tear down the work by nominating the images, there isn't anything I can do to stop you. I've explained on several occasions in several different forums why I believe the images meet policy and it's clear that you disagree, so I have no interest in wasting another minute trying to convince you. There is no consensus for the wholesale removal of images from this article and you overstepped yourself by unilaterally removing them all. I would note that each of these images is used in at least one other Wikipedia article so you'd better be prepared to explain why they fail each and every article. Otto4711 (talk) 08:54, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Harumpfh, where can this fit in?

Jericho (UK TV series), a series set in the 1950s which airs in the US and elsewhere has a two-part episode "The Killing of Johnny Swan". Swan, a closeted gay man has a gay lover who is also a crossdresser. The episodes reveal the harassment of LGBT by police - thus the reasons for lack of cooperation in the investigation - as well as a beard for Swan who is one of the murder victims on her and Swan's wedding night. -- Banjeboi 03:08, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

• It would fit nicely in a List of British television series with LGBT themes if somebody wanted to start one. Otto4711 (talk) 03:16, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

• Seeing as there is exactly one item and this is the English, as opposed to American Wikipedia perhaps some other solution would make sense. Posh Nosh and many other Brit series have episodes with LGBT themes but I wonder if creating country specific lists makes the most sense? -- Banjeboi 03:23, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

• This and its sibling lists document the way that American television has presented LGBT material in the context of specific moments/eras in American LGBT history. The way that British television presented specific material is not within the scope of the list. Otto4711 (talk) 03:30, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

• OMG! Really! Seriously, stating the obvious isn't helpful. Looking for solutions besides the one suggested - a list of one item. -- Banjeboi 03:33, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

• You're asking about where a British TV episode would go on a list of American television episodes, then getting pissy because you think the answer "nowhere" is too obvious despite apparently not thinking of it yourself? All righty then. Search for reliable sources that are about the episode itself and write up an article to be placed in Category:LGBT-related television episodes. Or do some more digging and develop the Brit episode list in your user page until it's substantial enough to move to article space. Otto4711 (talk) 03:46, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

• OK, step away from the balloon or wherever else you're getting the hot air please. I guess I was hoping we'd have a more parent article regarding this subject as, again, this is the English Wikipedia site so logically we cover shows not just because they have a connection to United States but because they are germane to the worldwide English-speaking audience. The US exports many TV shows but it also imports some, I believe most notably from ... Britain. Thanks otherwise for the thought-provoking bits. -- Banjeboi 04:11, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

• Feel free to write whatever parent article you think is appropriate on the subject, if sources exist on the general subject of LGBT representation in global media. But including British TV shows in American lists makes about as much sense as including civil partnerships in Same-sex marriage in the United States. Otto4711 (talk) 05:26, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Twin Peaks

I remeber Twin Peaks had a couple of episodes with David Ducovny playing a transgender police man. Could so add this please, because I found it quite remarkable that there was no fuss made about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.228.237.146 (talk) 11:06, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

The character, Denise was not a "transgender police man".. she was from all appearances, a transgender woman DEA agent, though her willingness to go "boy mode" to further an investigation would somewhat fall under the more modern interpretation of "gender fluid".

Denise appeared in several episodes in Season Two as a DEA agent.

Her acceptance by Coop and others was actually quite progressive for the time... though Hawk misgenders her on first meeting though attempting to be accepting with a comment "that's a good color on him". Most others seem to take her as she presents.. though she admittedly does not make any attempt to feminize her voice.

There is also a scene of Andy dancing with Denise at the end of one episode, though there is not any indication it was anything more than friends.

I should probably go back and review to find the specific episodes where she appears and their air dates so that Twin Peaks can be added DigitalSorceress (talk) 16:54, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Wings

It is not listed here, but in 1996 episode titled "Honey, We Broke The Kids". Casey manages to get a Hollywood star to do a promotional commercial local tourism. She has the hots for the star, but apparently missed the printed interview where he (Deke) came out as being gay and a vegetarian. Antonio also missed the interview, but views Deke as the coolest action star ever. Later on their was another episode (Team Plater?) where an episode where Antonio wears a dress (to avoid be recognized by angry Boston fans) and one more where Joe and Helen had to dance at a gay nightclub or something. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.123.38.190 (talk) 16:11, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Move

I moved this list from List of American television episodes with LGBT themes, 1990–1997 to be in sync with the 1970s and 1980s lists, which I didn't think would be controversial. I'm belatedly opening up a discussion on the topic because for neatness I had also updated the few links to this list from other lists, which User:Jerry Pepsi has reverted, probably in disagreement with my list name change. I'm now guessing that the list was named the way it was (and ended in 1997) because editors are considering the Ellen a watershed moment that made LGBT-themed episodes more commonplace, and therefore listing episodes after that date is trivial? While I personally agree that the Ellen episode did change things and perhaps make networks more unafraid, I don't see a source that asserts this or justifies that date as a cutoff. Has there been discussion on this elsewhere? I also removed links to the deleted List of post-Ellen American television episodes with LGBT themes (and was reverted). That list was obviously created as a continuation of this one but it was deleted in 2009 so ... — TAnthony^Talk 06:07, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

• The Puppy Episode is a watershed moment for LGBT representation on television. Moving the list without consultation is an egregious violation of consensus after it has been there for years without controversy and is an abuse of process. The article should be moved back to its original location and any move needs to be done per consensus. There are any number of resources that establish Ellen's coming out as a seminal moment of LGBT representation on television and the flagrant disregard of those sources is more than sufficient to undo the ignorant move of this article. That this is even a question is evidence of systemic bias. Restore the article first, then make your case for the move, if you can. Jerry Pepsi (talk) 06:19, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Like I said, I really didn't think the move would be controversial; honestly I didn't notice the "Puppy Episode" pgh at first and was just trying to format the list name like the others, which is a common enough thing to do and not an "egregious violation". And systemic bias??? Now that it's done though, it can't be undone without an Admin assist because, of course, I accidentally messed with the redirect and now there's an edit history, which makes a user move impossible.

I am reluctant to open the assisted move request myself because, frankly, I wouldn't know how to word the justification. Yes I'm sure there are many references asserting the importance of the Ellen episode, and I do agree that it did change things, but I'm not quite sure I understand your rationale for why that makes a difference for this list. Are post-1997 episodes listed elsewhere or are you saying they don't need to be? That's a decision that I would think needs some discussion. I don't even care that much, but you seem so passionate about it I would think you would have a specific rationale.

PS, "ignorant" is inflammatory, and frankly your tone and reverts are a little heated, don't you think? I can understanding you restoring the changed list links in other articles but restoring links to the deleted List of post-Ellen American television episodes with LGBT themes?— TAnthony^Talk 06:49, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

• Oh for FF SAKE, just undo the changes you made. UNDO. To say again, UNDO. So, yeah, UNDO what you did. Not controversial. Jerry Pepsi (talk) 06:56, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

I would definitely revert my good faith move if I could and start the discussion, but obviously I can't now. As I said, there's an edit history on the old name so I CAN'T UNDO or restore it myself. In response to this, a move/revert request would not get results immediately anyway. I'm not trying to put the "burden of proof" back on you but I do want to understand and will gladly put in a move request in fairness if I can provide reasonable justification to do so. No one is going to revert the move because I say "oops."— TAnthony^Talk 07:10, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Continued

To continue the discussion, I understand part of the argument behind the previous list name/cutoff date (List of American television episodes with LGBT themes, 1990–1997) so I'm trying to red team it. I'm assuming the idea was that after Ellen came out and sort of opened that door, there was a trend of more LGBT characters/episodes series and so maintaining the same kind of list would be cumbersome? I agree to an extent, and understand that listing every episode of Will & Grace is ridiculous and even tracking Agron/Nasir episodes of Spartacus is excessive and trivial. I'm just not feeling so strongly about 1997 as the hard out, it seems awkward and, despite the importance of Ellen, kind of arbitrary. I did find the following in "The Puppy Episode" article:

• The LGBT media watchdog group Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD) credits Ellen with paving the way for such LGBT-themed programming as Will & Grace (1998), The L Word (2004) and Ugly Betty (2006) and it has been suggested that Ellen and these other series presenting LGBT characters have helped to reduce societal prejudice against LGBT people.

This sets the tone you want, and I added it to the article, but to me it still only implies a before/after point. Written 10 years later in 2007, within the article it actually says that we haven't come as far in TV equality as we should despite the shows that followed. And I mean, we have no sourced statement saying that literally after April 30, 1997 the TV landscape changed and so we're not listing things anymore for the last 2.5 years of the decade, because an LGBT-themed episode of an otherwise mainstream show was no longer notable the day after Ellen came out. If the sitcom/drama series articles are any indication, there are several shows with LGBT characters from 1998-1999 but not a huge landslide. Plus, there is the following to note:

• Even though "The Puppy Episode" was the highest-rated episode ever of Ellen, drawing some 42 million viewers, and won a Primetime Emmy Award for Outstanding Writing for a Comedy Series and a Peabody Award, ABC prefaced each episode of season five with a parental advisory warning that DeGeneres found offensive.
• The show's subsequent cancellation was blamed in part on the last season being "too gay."
• Guest star Laura Dern faced backlash over her appearance on the show, stating in 2007 that she did not work for a year and a half because of playing Susan.
• Ellen's next network sitcom The Ellen Show, in which her character Ellen Richmond was openly lesbian from the start, did not premiere until 2001 and only lasted 13 episodes (not all of which even aired).
• She didn't make her big comeback success with her talk show The Ellen DeGeneres Show until 2003.

As a gay man I have always felt that the Ellen thing was HUGE and really started the ball rolling on the visibility and acceptance we're enjoying now, but some of this says to me that May 1, 1997 was not necessarily Day One of the LGBT Golden Age of Television. I really just don't see why making that distinction is necessary when the decade is almost over, you're just creating a bump and a set of questions for the reader. I came to the article looking for info that wasn't there and I didn't get the 1997 nuance right away, and I'm not the first one. Additionally, I know that Ellen got a huge amount of attention, but as Will & Grace was arguably the first successful primarily-gay series, and I imagine there are plenty of citations saying as much and asserting its influence and its proof to the networks that LGBT shows can make big money for them, I'm not sure why we're not including that show in our turning point as well.

Refs

Our two options, as I see them:

1. Keep the new list name List of 1990s American television episodes with LGBT themes, with the newly-added info in the lead asserting that "The Puppy Episode" was a big deal but not editor POV-ing that event as D-Day for the decade. Eventually add whatever handful of episodes/shows may have come up from May 1997-December 1999. Then you have the pre-Stonewall (conveniently 1969) and 3 clean decade lists. Info for the new millennium picks up on the LGBT series lists.

• List of pre-Stonewall riots American television episodes with LGBT themes
• List of 1970s American television episodes with LGBT themes
• List of 1980s American television episodes with LGBT themes
• List of 1990s American television episodes with LGBT themes
• Lists of television programs with LGBT characters

2. Change back to List of American television episodes with LGBT themes, 1990–1997 and try to make a better case (meaning some kind of sourced statement) for the abrupt cutoff date.

I'm looking forward to any comments and will happily go along with whatever consensus is reached, I'm curious at who might agree or disagree but am fine either way. Thanks! — TAnthony^Talk 13:37, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

• Here's the godddamned option. Put the article back to where it's sat for years, THEN make the case for moving it. Clearly your unilateral move is controversial. So undo the controversy. Not really getting why this is a stumbling block. Jerry Pepsi (talk) 15:53, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Wow. Your overreaction/incivility previously and just now is pretty uncalled for. Please calm down and take a breath, we're talking about the name of a list.— TAnthony^Talk 18:26, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

It could be included this kind of list?

• Lists of American television episodes with LGBT themes
• List of 2000s American television episodes with LGBT themes
• List of 2010s American television episodes with LGBT themes
• List of 2020s American television episodes with LGBT themes

Or by country:

• Lists of Canadian television episodes with LGBT themes
• List of 1970s Canadian television episodes with LGBT themes
• List of 2000s Canadian television episodes with LGBT themes ...

@TAnthony @Jerry Pepsi Mauriziok (talk) 22:34, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the message. I think you're asking about creating LGBT episode lists for decades after the 1990s? I recall from a previous discussion somewhere that it was believed LGBT episodes in the 2000s and beyond were more commonplace and too numerous for a comprehensive list.— TAnthony^Talk 14:30, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

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Requested move 9 December 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved as requested, unopposed. There was a previous dispute over the title as seen above, but it was a (subsequently blocked) sock that objected to moving the page to the suggested, consistent title. Dekimasuよ! 21:57, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

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List of American television episodes with LGBT themes, 1990–1997 → List of 1990s American television episodes with LGBT themes – Per WP:CONSISTENCY with the two other articles in the series - List of 1970s American television episodes with LGBT themes and List of 1980s American television episodes with LGBT themes and also matching the actual article lead. Gonnym (talk) 09:45, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.