Talk:Into the Wild (novel)

Cover

The official Warriors website uses that image featured in the center of the cover as their picture of Firestar. So we actually have proof for this one. --~|ET|~(^{Talk|Contribs}) 01:20, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

That's still original research to say that A looks like B so therefore A=B. Metros 12:00, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you mean that the picture that is used on the website is not the exact picture used in the article and so we cannot assume that both the pictures are reffering to the same cat?  Bella Swan_(Talk!) 12:34, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Even if it was the same exact picture, it's still original research until you get someone like the cover designer to state in an article in a magazine or something that "Yes, the image on the cover is _____ during _____." Frankly, what the hell does it matter? Seriously, if it's so damn obvious that it's that cat and you think I'm a moron for not seeing that, then why in the hell wouldn't anyone else know that that's the cat and not need you to state that in the article? Really, what is the point of it being needed to be stated in our article here? I don't see any other book series or novels that state what is on the cover of the book, so why do we need it if it's so blatantly obvious in your opinions? Metros 12:40, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Well if that's your argument, why don't you go and remove all obvious information from the entire wikipedia ^DAVID _CAT 23:08, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, if you think it doesn't matter, why don't you stop complaining ^DAVID _CAT 12:45, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

If you read what I said, I said why the hell do you people care so much about putting it in there? What good does it provide for these articles? Metros 12:47, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry if I offeneded you, but I do agree that it is a kinda stupid thing to be arguing about and that it should stop.  Bella Swan_(Talk!) 12:55, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, if it's a silly thing to be arguing about, why don't you stop arguing and let us keep the information^DAVID _CAT 23:07, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I quote from the tag at the top of Wikipedia:Reliable sources:

This page is considered a content guideline on Wikipedia. It is generally accepted among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow. However, it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception. When editing this page, please ensure that your revision reflects consensus. When in doubt, discuss first on this page's talk page. Common sense says that the cats are the same^DAVID _CAT 23:25, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I see your point, and I see Metros' point, and still think it's a stupid thing to argue about. I really do think that common sense would tell you that the cat's are the same, but all content in an encyclopedia is supposed to verifiable. I really don't know a solution to this problem.  Bella Swan_(Talk!) 03:22, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

ok, the book (in fact the entire series) has rusty as the main character. the OFFICIAL WEBSITE of the series has a section on the main characters. it uses the same identical picture from the cover as a picture of rusty. so the picture on the cover is of rusty, no one could come to a different conclusion.^DAVID _CAT 13:44, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Whatever! Even if it's OBVIOUS, just leave it there. It won't do anyone harm, right? IceUnshattered (talk) 00:37, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Changes

Where it talks about the prolouge and mentions the prophecy it says that 'this fire turns out to be Rusty, a housecat' I really see no point in that being there because 1) Nowhere in the first book does anyone come out and say that Rusty/Firepaw is the fire that will save their clan. 2) Even Bluestar isn't sure of the fact 3) It doesn't even MENTION Rusty in the prolouge amd 4) It should be obvious to the reader anyway. I removed that line. If anyone has objections we can talk it out and put it back in, possibly in a different spot.

Also I added which Erin Hunter wrote the book. ClawClaw 19:56, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for that, ClawClaw. IceUnshattered (talk) 00:38, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot 23:18, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Revision as of 2008.03.07.

I rewrote the article to give it more encyclopedic value. Please remember that this article is meant to present the book mainly to people who never heard about it before. Consequently, there is no need to enumerate dozens of names, to present the plot in an in-universe style, to present non-relevant details, and to use words and expressions that are not understood by those who did not read the books. Remember, the article was nominated for deletion because of these flaws. Yrtgm (talk) 16:52, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Into the Wild (Warriors)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

I am failing this article because I believe it neither meets the Good Article criteria nor is sufficiently close to be brought in line via trivial improvements. Among my issues with the current article are the following:

1. The lead provides an inadequate summary of the article. I would suggest expanding the lead to at least two full paragraphs, giving more detail on all points.
2. Various grammar problems. As is, the article is comprehensible, but it has very poor flow. For example, the first paragraph of the Background section right now reads

"Into the Wild was intended to be a single volume, but later changed to be the first book in a series.[2] The reason for writing this book was that HarperCollins asked Victoria Holmes to write a story about wild cats, which she initially was not enthusiastic about.[3] Victoria Holmes decided to use human issues, like starting at a new school, falling in love when you shouldn't, being bullied by someone who you should look up to, and even knowing a deep secret that you only tell your friends. This helped her overlook the fact that it was a fantasy, and let the characters flow through.[1] Once Holmes had finished writing down her ideas, she sent them to Kate Cary, who actually wrote Into the Wild. Then Holmes did the editing for the novel.[4]"

If I were to rewrite this paragraph so that it read more easily, I would word it as follows:

"Into the Wild was originally intended to be a stand-alone novel.[2] The book was conceived by publisher HarperCollins, who asked Victoria Holmes to write a story about wild cats. Holmes was originally unenthusiastic about the idea,[3] as she did not like the thought of writing a fantasy story. However, she was able to construct a plot based around human issues such as starting at a new school, falling in love when you shouldn't, being bullied by someone who you should look up to, and knowing a deep secret that you only tell your friends which helped her overlook the fantasy aspects and let the characters flow through.[1] After the initial planning phase Holmes took on an editorial role for the rest of Into the Wild's production while Kate Cary did the actual writing.[4] Following the commercial success of the novel, a number of sequels and spin-offs were written, and Into the Wild became the first book of the Warriors series.[2]"

This is just an example, and everyone will obviously write somewhat differently, but as it stands the page's writing style does not quite fit the encyclopedic tone found in most articles.

1. You are missing a characters section. When written, this section should describe the role played by each of the book's major figures. Good novel articles usually have a character section with roughly one full paragraph per character of detailed information and one to two paragraphs of introduction. They are traditionally formatted as definition lists.
2. The themes section needs expanded to not just be a restatement of the production section.

Once these issues are cleared up, feel free to nominate the page once more. Good luck! --erachima talk 07:02, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I found a lot of issues in Into the Wild that I never expected! O well I'll try to fix it...one more thing on my list of stuff to do...*sigh* Melkittycat (talk) 03:02, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm

Maybe the summary should be shortened a little because it feels like i'm reading the book right here, or maybe it doesn't need to be???? Aqualover (talk) 02:10, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Aww, yes. Usually by WP:PLOT the summary is usually only 3-4 paragrpahs. Lately I'm been trying to raise the book articles to C-class. However since this is already B-class, it is very low on my priority list. If you don't mind, could you please shorten it? please read Wikipedia:How to write a plot summary to correctly write the summary. Keep in the important plot details not like "Sandstorm caught a mouse". Add events like death, battle, new leader etc.. Derild4921☼ 12:57, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Into the Wild (Warriors)/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Susanne2009NYC (talk) 09:39, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Overall, the article is well researched and answers the sorts of questions readers may ask. Here are a few concerns I have however:

Lead:

• 1st paragraph:

Change "a Clan of wild cats" to "a group of forest-dwelling feral cats called ThunderClan". "Clan" alone is an in-universe term here that fans will understand, but may confuse general readers. Use "group" instead. "Feral cats" is the best choice because this is the term Holmes uses in one of the citations. A citation for this section is not needed. It is understood a plot summary is taken directly from the primary source.

 Done Derild4921☼ 18:20, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

• 2nd paragraph:

Change "wild cats" to "feral cats". Change "but she felt the idea was limited" to "but, being a "dog person" and not a reader of fantasy novels, she felt little enthusiasm" or "she was unenthusiatic". Change "voume" to "volume". Following the "voume" sentence, add "Into the Wild is the first volume in the Warriors series".

 Done Derild4921☼ 18:20, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Delete "Kate Cary wrote [...] also write as Erin Hunter." The first sentence is a duplicate of the first sentence in the first paragraph. The second sentence is irrelevant because Cherith Baldry is not involved with this novel. Send the information to the main Warriors article. Here, it is excess baggage and may confuse general readers.

 Done Derild4921☼ 18:20, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

• 3rd paragraph:

Change "Awards" to "Award". Send "Themes in the book range from family life to loyalty" to the end of the first paragraph.

 Done Derild4921☼ 18:20, 31 July 2010 (UTC) I'll return to continue the review! Susanne2009NYC (talk) 17:42, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

More on the Lead:

• 1st paragraph:

Change "Into the Wild is a novel written by" to "Into the Wild is a fantasy novel written by".

Change "created and developed by Vicky Holmes" to "created and developed by Victoria Holmes". Be sure to link the name!

Start a new paragraph at "The story is about".

Link feral cats.

Change "receives his warrior name following a battle" to "receives his warrior name, Fireheart, following a battle". Be sure to link the name!

 Done Derild4921☼ 22:44, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

• 2nd paragraph:

"HarperCollins" should not be inked here. It is linked in the first paragraph.

Change "Victoria Holmes" to "Holmes". Do not link. It is linked in the first paragraph.

"but she felt the idea was limited and as she was a dog person" reads awkwardly.

Using "create" and "creating" within a few words ("to create a six volume series. After creating one") reads awkwardly. I'm still uncomfrotable with the second paragraph and would prefer to see the following inserted in its stead:

"HarperCollins asked Holmes to write a book about feral cats, but she thought the idea limited and responded with little enthusiasm. Nonetheless, she worked with the concept and produced enough material to create a six volume series. Kate Cary was brought on board to write the first volume from a finished storyline while Holmes remained behind the scenes to edit and supervise details."

 Done Derild4921☼ 22:44, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

• 3rd paragraph:

Move "Themes in the book range from family life to loyalty." to the end of what will be the second paragraph. This sentence is linked to the fictional world of the book and does not belong in a paragraph about real world details such as reviews, awards, and formats.

Well, I usually format the lead as: Date published, author, plot, and then a summary of the rest of the article going straight down so it would be, origins, pub history themes, reviews and then awards so I'll put the themes above the reviews part.

More on the Lead:

• 2nd paragraph:

Change "join a a group" to "join a group".

Link feral cats.

Put a comma after "Fireheart".

 Done Derild4921☼ 01:17, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

• 3rd paragraph:

Change "when Holmes finished one writing one" to "after Holmes completed its story line".

Tweak this sentence a bit: "Many natural landscapes serve as inspiration for the book." Suggestions: "Several natural areas in England and Scotland (including New Forest and the woods about Loch Lomond) inspired the settings in the novel," or "New Forest, the woods about Loch Lomond, and other natural areas in England and Scotland inspired the settings in the novel." Use "areas" rather than "landscapes" and "novel" rather than "book".

 Done Derild4921☼ 01:17, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

• 4th paragraph:

I disagree with you about the placement of the sentence about the themes. It speaks of the fictional world of the novel and, for me, belongs with the paragraph about the plot summary - not with the real world information about reviews, editions, and awards. If you insist on keeping it in the fourth paragraph, set it in a real world context: Into the Wild was critically well received. Reviewers noted themes of family life and loyalty, praised the author's fidelity to feline nature, and thought fans of Brian Jacques' Redwall series would enjoy the tale."

 Done Well, when you put it like that it makes sense ;) Derild4921☼ 01:17, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Change "It has also won awards and received became the 2006 Young Reader's Choice Award third place recipient" to "Among other awards, it claimed the third place 2006 Young Reader's Choice Award."

 Done Derild4921☼ 01:17, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

When these adjustments are made, we'll move into the main text! Susanne2009NYC (talk) 01:10, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

• More about the Lead:

1st paragraph:

Series titles are not italicized. Remove the italics in "It is the first novel in the Warriors series."

 Done Derild4921☼ 13:35, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

2nd paragraph:

Change "Themes in the book range from family life to loyalty" to "The novel's themes include family, loyalty, death, courage, and survival." "Range" suggests something with a begining and an end such as 16th century poetry to 20th century poetry. "My book collection ranges over four centuries of English poetry."

 Done Derild4921☼ 13:35, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

3rd paragraph:

Link New Forest and Loch Lomond.

Put a stop after "settings in the novel"

 Done Derild4921☼ 13:35, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

4th paragraph:

Change "well received with may reviewers" to "well received. Booklist believed the book would appeal to followers of Brian Jacques' Redwall series." Jacques name must be included or some readers will believe the Redwall series is by Erin Hunter. BTW, any similarity to Redwall is not mentioned in the "Reception" section. Change the awards sentence to "Among other awards, it claimed the third place 2006 Young Reader's Choice Award."

 Done Derild4921☼ 13:35, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

I shall return! Susanne2009NYC (talk) 03:01, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

• More on the Lead:

4th paragraph:

Change "Into the Wild was critically well received well received" to "Into the Wild was critically well received."

 Done Can't believe I did that! Derild4921☼ 22:01, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

I'll return to review the first section! Susanne2009NYC (talk) 21:23, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

• Inspiration and origins:

"Concept and development" is a more precise title for this section.

Change "HarperCollins asked Victoria" to "In 2003, HarperCollins asked Victoria". De-link HarperCollins. It is linked in the lead.

Change "was written by Kate Cary under the pseudonym Erin Hunter and completed in about three months" to "was written by Kate Cary under the pseudonym Erin Hunter, and was completed in about three months."

I'm not sure "dog person" should be in quotes. Try dog lover or change "being a "dog person" and not a reader" to "having a preference for dogs and not being a reader". Use your best judgement on this.

The section on the locations is virtually duplicated immediately in the "Synopsis" section. Move the passage to the top of the first paragraph in the "Settings" section word for word with citations. We'll discuss it further once it's moved.

Culpeper's Herbal has the effect of trivia here. Move it to the plot section where any mention of the medicine cats is made. We'll discuss it further once it's moved.

All  Done except I deleted the Herbal as there is nothing mentioning herbs in the article.

I'll return later! Susanne2009NYC (talk) 23:06, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

• Concept and development:

Change "being a more interested in dogs" to "being more interested in dogs".

Change "three months.". to "three months." Remove the q-mark and second stop at the end of the sentence.

Go to the lead, and begin the first sentence in the third paragraph with "In 2003,".

 Done Derild4921☼ 00:34, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Later! Susanne2009NYC (talk) 00:23, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

• Umm....hello? Are you busy to continue the review? Derild4921☼ 01:50, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

• Pulication history, Themes, Critical Reception, Awards

Looks good. No problems except I wonder if being named to the 10 fantasy books for youth list and being a Book Sense 76 Pick are really awards. Maybe the section title could be changed to "Awards and recognition"? Susanne2009NYC (talk) 01:52, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

 Done, should the section be made into a subsection of critical reception? Derild4921☼ 02:01, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't know. I've always preferred seeing "Awards" a separate section. I'll check the Manual of Style, but use your own judgement. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 02:31, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Have not found this yet. Let's go with your preference for now. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 02:43, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

• Synopsis

This is where we are going to have the greatest problems. Information in one section is duplicated in another. This is not good writing. There is no need for a "Characters" section because all the characters are linked to their summaries in another article. Because the article is appropriately short, these character descriptions can be condensed and moved directly to the plot section.

• I will delete the Characters section but adding it within the plot will be difficult so I will just expand the Plot to make sure the information is also there.Derild4921☼ 13:51, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

The main thread of the novel should be stated at the top of the plot section: "The novel is about the integration of a domestic house cat called Rusty into a group of feral cats living in a fictional forest inspired by real world locales such as New Forest." The image of the forest should be placed here with the revised caption. In writing the plot, avoid in-universe vocabulary such as "kittypets". Fans will like this but general readers will find it confusing or coy. Use house pets. You actually define "kittypets" twice within the synopsis section. This is not good writing.

• Setting

This section can be considerably condensed and should focus solely on the essentials. Introducing the fictional information about the various clans here is confusing. Save it for the plot section. I suggest condensing the section to read: "The novel is set in a fictional forest inspired by New Forest, the Scottish Highlands, the woods near Loch Lomond, and the Forest of Dean." Incorporate the citations appropriately and use the text as the caption in the image. In this way, you have not lengthened the article unnecessarily with duplicated information. Please try this. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 03:02, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

• Well, the Clans info could be made easier to understand such as adding "The forest is home to feral cats living in four groups or Clans. The four Clans are..." etc. The example could be taken away and the fact the setting stays can until Dawn can also go away. Putting all the information on the setting in the caption is not neccassarily a good idea as not readers will read the caption. I feel it should stay as it is, but taking some information out. Derild4921☼ 13:51, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

• A separate subsection is not necessary because the information can be incorporated into the Plot section in the first few sentences. Additionally, all the names should be trimmed because they are confusing and make it difficult to follow the plot summary. If a character is not overwhelmingly critical to the plot summary or a main character, it will be enough to refer to their function in the plot. I suggest beginning the plot section like this:

Into the Wild follows the integration of a house cat called Rusty into a group of feral cats living in a fictional forest inspired by the real world locales of New Forest, the woods about Loch Lomond, the Forest of Dean, and the Scottish Highlands. The group of cats are called ThunderClan, and share the fictional forest with three other groups of feral cats called RiverClan, WindClan, and ShadowClan.

The novel opens with a prologue that follows a battle between ThunderClan and RiverClan. (Here you should mention in a few words why they are warring). Rusty has yet to appear in the novel, but a veiled reference is made to him in a prophecy ThunderClan receives from the spirits of their ancestors: "Fire alone can save our Clan."

 Done though the first paragraph looks really out of place now... Derild4921☼ 00:38, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

• The Image caption sounds awkward. Try something like: "The novel's fictional forest was inspired by several real world locales including New Forest (above)."

• Second paragraph:

This paragraph can be revised. There are too many names and this was a major complaint from professional reviewers of the novel. These names need to be trimmed in the plot summary because they create confusion and weariness. There is no need to mention Bluestar by name nor Spotted leaf nor Starclan nor Sunningrocks. This is too much detail for a plot summary and all of this in-universe vocabulary will likely be confusing to a general reader and is a major "turn-off". ThunderClan is mentioned three times in this short paragraph and a synonym should be used to relieve the monotony.

I've placed the following into the plot as a second paragraph for your consideration. Remember the novel is about Rusty and he should be the focus of the plot summary, not minute detail and the cornucopia of names in the novel.

The novel opens with a prologue that follows a battle between ThunderClan and RiverClan over a strip of land. ThunderClan is outnumbered and their deputy, Redtail, calls a retreat. Rusty has yet to appear in the novel, but a veiled reference is made to him in a prophecy ThunderClan receives from the spirits of their ancestors: "Fire alone can save our Clan."

 Done Derild4921☼ 13:43, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

• The third paragraph:

This paragraph can be revised. All the names save Graypaw can be deleted. Begin with something like the following. This is all that really needs to be said: Following the prologue, Rusty, the novel's hero, is introduced. He is a well-bred house cat who tangles in the woods with Graypaw, a member of ThunderClan. The encounter is observed by Graypaw's two warrior companions and Rusty is invited to join the Clan. After some consideration, he accepts and is given a new name, Firepaw, because of the way his flame-colored coat shines in the sun.

 Done Derild4921☼ 13:43, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

• Fourth paragraph and fifth paragraphs:

These are very confusing and leave a lot unanswered. Both paragraphs should be condensed and merged into a final paragraph. What happens to Tigerclaw? Why are the kittens atolen and why are they found with ShadowClan? Drop everything about Ravenpaw. This is spun out at too great length and leads nowhere. Focus on Tigerclaw. He murdered Redtail, became deputy, and what then? Was he killed by Firepaw or what? Make this very, very brief. No more than one sentence. Cut the detail and focus solely on Tigerclaw. Begin something like this:

"Firepaw trains as a ThunderClan warrior. He learns Tigerclaw, a deputy, murdered Redtail. (Here, tell us what happens to Tigerclaw in one short sentence, then tell us why the kittens were stolen in a short sentence)."

 Done though I had to cut out the details for a battle to keep the paragraph short. Derild4921☼ 23:03, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

We need to know what happends to Tigerclaw. Is he killed, driven off, joins the enemy, or what? Susanne2009NYC (talk) 01:35, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

 Done Derild4921☼ 15:33, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

• I'm ready to PASS the article to GA. Do you have any last minute concerns? Susanne2009NYC (talk) 20:58, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Nope, thank you for your time! Derild4921☼ 21:30, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

• Well-written:

(a) the prose is clear and the spelling and grammar are correct; and (b) it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.

Some prose issues, but resolved. PASS.

• Factually accurate and verifiable:

(a) it provides references to all sources of information in the section(s) dedicated to the attribution of these sources according to the guide to layout; (b) it provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines; and (c) it contains no original research.

Thorough research with good sources and citations. PASS.

• Broad in its coverage:

(a) it addresses the main aspects of the topic; and (b) it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).

Forcuses on the topic without digressions. PASS

• Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias.

No problem. Neutral. PASS

• Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.

No problem Stable. PASS

• Illustrated, if possible, by images:

(a) images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content; and (b) images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.

No prblems. PASS

Request for Peer review

Comments from Sadads

Upon request, I am going to peer review this article, I will leave points which I think need to be polished below, Sadads (talk) 00:12, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

• In general, I think booksellers are questionable sources, because they may not be accurately representing the reviews they have (possibly excluding content or only choosing good reviews), are any of them accessible in any other forms/locations?Sadads (talk) 00:49, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
  • I usually try to avoid that too, but Children's Literature requires subscription and none of the sources I usually use for reviews has them. I try to avoid them in the Critical reception area, but I use them for themes and anything else I can. Derild4921☼ 01:07, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

In Style and writing

• "She compares their style to a different language and after all the scripts she gone through, Holmes knows when a sentence of phrase doesn't fit in." needs to be clarified, Sadads (talk) 00:12, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Fixed.
• "The book also uses different words and a different writing style which have been praised and criticized by reviewers." could use some more description of what reviewers notice, to make it easier to follow where the paragraph is going, Sadads (talk) 19:27, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
• "Reviews have also noted how the book does not get rid of any violence and gore" is kindof unclear. What violence and gore should she be getting rid of ?Sadads (talk) 19:30, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Structure and genre

• I am not sure what you are getting at in "HarperCollins originally requested that Holmes write a "fantasy story on feral cats", but Holmes also added in human themes and issues into the book." I mean when someone treats animals as anthropomorphic, then they begin to create societies because they "are" human (hence "anthro"). I think this is part of the reason these books are being compared to Brian Jacques. I would suggest rereading the source and trying to figure out what they are actually getting at with this comment (or if it actually needs to be included or needs to be changed in how it is presented) Sadads (talk) 19:36, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Themes

Is ""booksforyouth Review". booksforyouth.com. Retrieved 2010-07-20." A reliable source? It just looks like a blog to me, Sadads (talk) 00:36, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

• Doesn't seem like one. At the time I jumped at anything that gave me something on themes.

Critical reception section

I think this section could go a little deeper into the intricacy of each review. It has a very surface level approach right now, with each review pretty much giving a thumbs up or a thumbs down, or so it seems, Sadads (talk) 00:29, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I saw that an an issue too when I came back to the article. Derild4921☼ 01:07, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

I've found quite a lot of newspaper article reviews in the Google news archives, but they all require subscriptions. Is there any website I can use like accessmylibrary view the articles without having to subscribe? Derild4921☼ 00:22, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

I would check and see if you can get access to Newspaper Source Plus (EBSCO) and LexisNexis Academic, both of these have pretty good breadth and depth, I will send you an e-mail and you can give me specific reviews you want and I can try to get them and throw them into PDF for you. I have access to a fair amount of resources through my university's library, Sadads (talk) 02:38, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

I have access to Newspaper Source Plus through my library, but there aren't any results that come up. The best I can get is two bestseller lists for other books in the series. I think that the newspaper sources were too long ago. Derild4921☼ 13:59, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

I sent you an e-mail, give me the article titles and some bibliographic info( which newspapers and dates) you want via e-mail and I will see if I can retrieve them, Sadads (talk) 23:07, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

I've replied. Thanks for everything! Derild4921☼ 23:20, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Sent you the times article, looking for others, hopfeully will have some tonight, Sadads (talk) 23:49, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Got it thanks, but is it reliable considering an 11 year old wrote the article and it was published by the Washington Times? Derild4921☼ 00:02, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Are you busy now or have you just missed this? Friendly reminder! Derild4921☼ 22:48, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, missed it on my watchlist. I would call it reliable in the sense that he does a pretty good job examining the book and the Times published it as "their review". You may want to make a comment on the nature of the reviewer, not sure. It would be an interesting thing to bring up in the Critical Reception section at the very least. I told you I couldn't find the other ones in my databases right? Sorry school has been getting busy, and WP:USPP is taking a fair bit of my concentraiton. I will reread this tonight or tomorrow (as a break from school work) and see if I can offer any more feedback. Sadads (talk) 23:30, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

No problem, thanks for the reply. I'll add it in soon. Don't worry about this too much, school is important. ;). Derild4921☼ 23:39, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Lead

Before you go to another review, I would get the lead within standards for WP:Lead, especially number of paragraphs to content ratio, Sadads (talk) 00:54, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Wording

"The genre is fantasy though there are also human elements and themes within the book."

I was somewhat confused by that sentence. This seems to suggest that human elements and themes aren't common in fantasy. Instead of "the genre is fantasy," I think that a statement about the creatures might make for a better comparison. -- James26 (talk) 11:20, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out, fixed. Derild4921☼ 19:49, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Peer review

At long last, I am posting my review! You said that you were thinking of submitting this article for FAC. I think the two biggest issues that it faces are "brilliant prose" and "high-quality sources".

• In general, the article needs to be thoroughly copyedited. The sentence structure is often repetitive, which gives the writing a stilted feeling (the lead is a good example of this).
• The organization of the lead is confusing - information about the themes, setting and style is mixed up with the history of the writing and publication.
• Places to expand or be more specific:

• The lexicon and different words have also been commented on by reviewers. - This sentence has little meaning - what have reviewers said?
• Holmes has said that the style of the series needs to stay consistent with the three different authors. Holmes needs to "make sure that [the book] “sounds” like Erin, because she has a very distinctive voice". She compares their style to a different language and after all the scripts she gone through, Holmes knows when a sentence of phrase isn't in Erin Hunter's voice. - This needs a bit more detail - what does Hunter's "voice" sound like?
• The book also uses different words and a different writing style which have been praised and criticized by reviewers. - This sentence has no meaning - what words and style have been commented on?
• A Children's Literature review noted the words "kittypet" and "twoleg" which mean housecat and humans respectively. Instead, of using words such as "said" and, the author uses the words "mewed". This was critized with the reviewer writing "the "he mewed" and "she purred" and "the warrior mewed" which pass for cat talk grows old fast" - What did the reviewer think was the problem with these words, exactly?
• Is there any more detail you can add about the themes in general?

• Organizational issues:

• Reviews have also noted how the writing style does not cover up the hardships of Clan life. School Library Journal commented on how the story describes the hardships and difficulties of a feral cat's life in detail and how there is also no sugarcoating of the violence.[10] Fantasy Book Review also wrote "Erin Hunter does not spare the reader from the grim realities of living in the wild". - This is a theme.

• Have you had anyone assess these sources? Some of them look like they might not pass WP:RS. I did a quick assessment of some of them and many looked iffy. However, I did not delve into them very deeply.

I hope this helps! Awadewit (talk) 17:51, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks very much for the review. I'll work on fixing up some of the prose, but I'll probably need another editor to look it over. The sources have been broughy up as a concern here. I'll be working to add in references and more genre information this coming weekend. Thanks! Derild4921☼ 18:42, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Also, on the fact about what the "voice" is, the interview I have cited is the only mention of this that I could find. Anything I could do about that? Derild4921☼ 18:57, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

If that is all the source says, that is all you can say - too bad! Awadewit (talk) 20:24, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Very well then, I added a little more on the voice, but I can't find anymore at this time, I'll keep looking though. Derild4921☼ 20:51, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Some thoughts

I reviewed this article for GA and now notice the prose has been tweaked and new material entered. I suggest the article be sent to Reassessment before FAC is considered, or a copy editor be allowed to touch up the prose. I see other problems. For example, we're told the book has been described as "Shakespearean" but this is not developed other than listing some themes the book shares with the bard's plays such as war and star-crossed lovers. Listing themes and moving on to something else is not enough at FAC. There appears to be no reliable sources (read scholarly literature) that delve into this book with a thorough examination of its themes. This is the weakest part of the article and probably won't help at FAC. Themes is the meat and potatoes of an article about a work of fiction and other than the themes being listed here, there's no examination of them. At this point however, the article could be improved with a thorough copy edit. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 21:32, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

At this point FAC is at the back of my head. Right now I'm just trying to add in more reliable sources, improving prose etc. As for scholary reviews, this is note exactly a classic book, but more Percy Jacksonish; just a popular kids series. Derild4921☼ 21:48, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Some More Thoughts

"The novel has been translated into 20 different languages including German, Britain, France, Russia, Japan, Korea, China, Czech Republic, Lithuania, Portugal, Hungary, Brazil, Norway and Greece."

FWIW, "Britain, France, Russia, Japan, Korea, China, Czech Republic, Lithuania, Portugal, Hungary, Brazil, Norway and Greece" are not languages. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 03:00, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Fixed. Brambleclawx 22:30, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Plot Help

We should remove all that junk about where it takes place, (it's on the image anyway) and expand the plot. We also don't need a whole paragragh about the prolauge. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.64.182.93 (talk) 23:27, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Actually, it's better to keep the stuff on where it takes place (this is actually a very important section!). The prologue paragraph is fine, but I do agree that the plot summary is a bit short. Brambleclawx 23:30, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

I think that much of the plot was cut and shortened down by the GA reviewer and I thought that it was a nice concise version. I wouldn't mind beefing it up some as long as it only has the big details. Probably more information on the betrayal and Ravenpaw. Derild4921☼ 01:50, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

My thoughts exactly. Maybe a mention of how Sandpaw and Dustpaw made fun of him too, since the Erins mentioned that being a new kid was one of the ideas they tried to portray. Brambleclawx 01:55, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

But about the setting. Why couldn't we split it into a sub-section in the plot? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.64.182.93 (talk) 04:12, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

We could, but right now, the section is so short there's really no point. Brambleclawx 22:07, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

E-book question

The Article states that's it's available in e-book and amazon kindle formats.The Kindle is an e-reader though.So should it just say e-book format?--Nyswimmer (talk) 12:32, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Er... was that you, the person who commented above as well? And um... i don't know about the e-book thing. I suppose so, but for some reason, all the Warriors articles mention them separately... weird. I'll think about it. Brambleclawx 23:40, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

This is Nyswimmer sorry I forgot to sign before --Nyswimmer (talk) 12:32, 10 February 2011 (UTC) 23:46, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

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Yellowfang

The plot section has no mention of Yellowfang or the supposed connection between her disappearance and the missing kits. I think the plot section should be redone to show that. Jak474 (talk) 16:28, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

We can add it, but the problem is that the plot summary is limited to 700 words. Some stuff has to be left out, unfortunately. White Arabian Filly ^Neigh 23:11, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

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"Kits"

Does "kits" refer to kittens? It's an odd word choice – probably used in the book but perhaps not interpretable by Wikipedia readers. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 22:59, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Potentail edits

I believe there are a few missing details about Yellowfang's involvement and introduction to the clan as well as Firepaw and Graypaw becoming Fireheart and Graystripe at the end of the book. Ruin0517 (talk) 11:46, 18 April 2024 (UTC)