Talk:Habte Giyorgis Dinagde

Introduce my self!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i am the family of Fitawrari Habtegyorgis Dinagde!!! please there let me introduce you in detaile. I am the son of Welansa Fitawrari Taye, who is the brother of Kegn Azmach Kebede Habregiyorgis!!! Therefore, i need to contact with the family of Habtegiyorgis Dinagde and know each other since i am the close family!!! please i am asking you help to reply me by soon!! my mother strongly wants to get her Kins!!!! you cn contact me by my email address ([email protected]) or facebook brehanu Bogale Birhanu Bogale Addis Ababa Ethiopia!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.55.105.248 (talk) 07:03, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Oromo, Gurage, or both?

There are editing disputes as to whether he was Gurage or Oromo. Often in Ethiopia, people are descended from more than one group. (Pondering this could change some current political extreme tendencies.) Instead of edit wars, I call for citing evidence.Pete unseth (talk) 20:36, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

In the book Ethiopia by Paulos Milkias P221, it stated that Habte Giorgis was a pure Oromo. It mentions that his lands and units he commanded where from Chebo. This misunderstanding of people thinking he came from Chebo started in here. Jpduke (talk) 23:56, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Greetings @Jpduke: do you happen to know the page number of Paulos Milkias book, where it states Habte Giorgis ethnicity? Just to confirm. If sources are equally prominent, maybe we could also add that his background is disputed. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 21:50, 9 January 2022 (UTC) Update Here's one with Paulos Milkias writing Habte Giorgis ethnicity is Gurage.

Hello, it’s on page 221. It claims that he is a “pure Oromo”. This is why I named the place of birth because of the dispute of his ethnicity. We can definitely state that his ethnicity is disputed in order to end the edits. Also, when you undo the edits make sure to undo specific parts of the edits since it reverts all of the work I did that doesn’t relate to ethnicity like his military and political articles. Here is a citation for the book, Milkias, Paulos. Ethiopia. Santa Barbara: Abc-Clio, 2011. Print. Jpduke (talk) 09:10, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Hello @Dawit _S_Gondaria it’s on page 221. It claims that he is a “pure Oromo”. This is why I named the place of birth because of the dispute of his ethnicity. We can definitely state that his ethnicity is disputed in order to end the edits. Also, when you undo the edits make sure to undo specific parts of the edits since it reverts all of the work I did that doesn’t relate to ethnicity like his military and political articles. Here is a citation for the book, Milkias, Paulos. Ethiopia. Santa Barbara: Abc-Clio, 2011. Print. Jpduke (talk) 09:13, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

@Jpduke: You added Bahru Zewde History of Ethiopia, on which page does it support the claim? Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 12:08, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Sources that say he is Gurage

●Paulos Milkias: Quote; ‘‘Fitawrari Habte Giorgis, another outsider with a humble background, came from the Gurage ethnic group and served as Minister of War.’’

Sources that say he is Oromo

●Paulos Milkias's book "Ethiopia" on page 221, it is stated he is "pure Oromo":

Discussion

Please provide page numbers for verification. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 18:43, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

I have verified both Paulos Milkias book, contradictery one he is ethnic Gurage other Pure Oromo. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 19:44, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Writing name

There is no war on his first name being Habte Giyorgis. I am wonderig why there is space between his first name. It seems like Giyorgis is his father name. I am moving the page in a week to Habtegiyorgis Dinagde if there is no oppose.(Mercy for my English) Maammee (talk) 21:08, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

No acces to Obnoromia.com

@J@Pduke: I have no acces to this non-English, Oromo source so i can't verify your claims in the edit summary whether its scholarly or not, english sources are prefered. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 18:33, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

I have updated the link for the citation. The website "Obnoromia.com" is not the correct website.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jpduke (talk • contribs) 19:32, 10 January 2022 (UTC) 

Previous religion?

According to a source namely [1] he along with Balcha Safo were forcibly converted to Christianity after their capture by Abyssinian forces, although the source doesnt indicate what their previous religion was, the kingdom they fought under (Hadiya kingdom) was a Muslim state which ironically also forcibly converted inhabitants to Islam. Content including references on this would be appreciated Magherbin (talk) 02:02, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Did Habte fight for Enjamo and claims he was Hadiya

I think it is not reasonable to claim that Habte Giyorgis was captured by during the "holy war" between Hassan Enjamo and Ras Gobana. Based on the information from the Delibo, Cerulli, and Tafla the timeline suggests that Habte Giyorgis was captured before the major conflicts involving Hassan Enjamo.

Here are key points supporting this conclusion, using the source provided by:@Magherbin, Delibo, Emperor Menelik's Ethiopia, 1865-1916: National Unification Or Amhara Communal Domination.

1. Capture Before Enjamo's Leadership:
   • Habte Giyorgis was captured by Ras Gobana during one of the Gurage invasions, which took place in the late 1870s, before Hassan Enjamo started his campaigns called the "holy war" in 1880s. This indicates that Habte’s capture occurred prior to Enjamo’s rise and the subsequent "holy war". (Delibo, 101)
2. Timing of Enjamo's Leadership:
   • Hassan Enjamo only became a significant leader and led the "holy war" starting around 1878. By that time, Habte was likely already in the ranks of Menelik’s forces following his capture in the multiple invasions of Gurage by Gobana and Menelik in the 1870s. (Cerulli, 163). This matches up with his Military rise as he was a prominent figure fighting for Menelik during the start of the "holy war" in 1878.
3. No Evidence of Captivity During Enjamo's Campaign:
   • The sources do not suggest that Habte Giyorgis was captured as part of the war between Ras Gobana and Enjamo. Instead, he was recruited as a POW after an earlier Gurage defeat, when Ras Gobana was still focused on subjugating the Gurage, before the emergence of the full-scale holy war led by Enjamo.
   • "During one of his Gurage invasions, conducted apparently in the late 1870's, Gobana took two men among the other Gurage prisoners" (Delibo, 101)
   • The text describing Habte Giorgis’ capture mentions no connection to the Hadiya army or Injamo. It specifically states that he was captured among the Gurage prisoners during Ras Gobana's Gurage campaign. The absence of any reference to the Hadiya or Injamo in this context reinforces the argument that his capture was unrelated to the Hadiya’s conflicts with Gobana

When looking at other sources about Habte's life, we can see where the details match with Delibo's account. For example,in Tafla's "Two Ethiopian Biographies" [3].

1. Capture during Gurage invastion:
   • Tafla: "According to Dr. Mérab and some other foreign sources, he was a captive taken prisoner in one of the expeditions of the Negus against Čabo.(Ras Gobäna Dači and Dajazmač MäSäSa led a series of campaigns during the years 1876-1879, to Čabo and neighbouring regions, but there is no indication that Menilek himself fought)" (Tafla, 125)
   • Delibo: "During one of his Gurage invasions, conducted apparently in the late 1870's, Gobana took two men among the other Gurage prisoners" (Delibo, 101)
   • We can clearly see the most likely outcome came from an earlier invasion of the Gurage people by Ras Gobana before the "holy war" by Injamo which according to Tafla started around 1880s (Tafla, 124).

Even then, the sources provided, (Delibo), by @Magherbin don't definitely state Habte was captured from fighting under Enjamo nor does it state that he was part of the Gurage-hadiya coalition. There is no direct connection of Hadiya with Habte in any source, including Delibo [1]. Even in Tafla's source, there are doubts to Habte's lineage as a Gurage or an Oromo, so it is pure speculation to connect him with the Hadiya without providing concrete evidence. In nearly all accounts however, state he was captured in a Gurage invastion by Gobana (Delibo, 101-102), (Cerulli, 163), (Tafla, 123).

@Magherbin if you want to keep editing your claims, please give sources that say:

1. Habte fought for Injamo, as you had claimed in the article edits. Delibo, account never says he fought for Injamo. Delibo doesnt even definitely say they were prisoners of war, only assumes that since Balcha Safo's genitals were maimed. "During one of his Gurage invasions, conducted apparently in the late 1870's, Gobana took two men among the other Gurage prisoners. One of them was given a Habesha name of Habte-Giyorgis, while the other was named Belcha. The young men were evidently captured while they were fighting, since Balcho's genital organ was mutilated when he was taken prisoner" (Delibo, 101-102)
2. Habte was from/born in Hadiya, suggesting he was Hadiyan, you had edited his origin/place of birth to include Hadiya. There is no evidence other than you suspecting he was from Hadiya from your other assumption that he fought for Injamo which still needs to be proven.

[1] DILEBO, G. (1974). Emperor Menelik's Ethiopia, 1865-1916: National Unification Or Amhara Communal Domination (Order No. 7502180). Available from ProQuest Dissertations & Theses Global. (302681395). http://mutex.gmu.edu/login?url=https://www.proquest.com/dissertations-theses/emperor-meneliks-ethiopia-1865-1916-national/docview/302681395/se-2

[2] Cerulli, E. (1922). Folk-literature of the Galla of Southern Abyssinia. United States: Peabody Museum of Harvard university.

[3] TAFLA, BAIRU (1968). "Two Ethiopian Biographies". Journal of Ethiopian Studies. 6 (1): 123–130. ISSN 0304-2243. JSTOR 41965771.

Jpduke (talk) 15:36, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

This rebuttal doesn't even defend your own edits which states he was simply "found" in Shewa after a battle [2]. Were the Gurage in Shewa? Did they occupy that region? Dilebo states he was captured during a battle with Gurage, Habte being from Shewa region is mentioned by Dilebo but he makes it clear that Habte himself is not of Shewan ethnic Oromo origin and that he was taken prisoner fighting for Gurage. The source only imples he was a native in a region called Waliso in modern Shewa but thats irrelevant mainly because the article already mentions that and secondly in his adult life he is in Gurage-Hadiya territory. Reading the older discussions it appears "Shewan Oromo" was your preferred ethnic background for the individual. Provide a reference that states he was captured fighting a stand alone Gurage army and who was their leader? The Hadiyans overran that region, they were the main opponents of Menelik's invasion see Menelik II's conquests. Dilebo states he fought his own people let me quote the text here "It has been noted above that Ras Gobana suffered three successive defeats at the hands of the Gurage-Hadiye under Injamo. Finally, when the Oromo warlord came for the fourth trial, Habte Giyorgis asked the former to let him demonstrate his bravery and courage against his own people"-p.102 Dilebo. I would like to make something else clear, although the Hadiyans are distinct their state comprised the Gurage people. The leader of Hadiya prior to Hassan was a Gurage and Hassan himself Gurage through his mother. The Hadiyans dominated the region prior to Meneliks invasions. Lapiso goes in detail about this in his book, he puts the Gurage under the Hadiya see [3]. It was only after the Abyssinian invasions that Gurage becomes dominant through Shewan imperialism/EPRDF Ethiopian state support. I'm also taking the Gurage origin claims with a grain of salt as its likely referring to the region because the Abyssinians dont recognize Hadiyans infact two ethnic groups are occupied to this day by the so called "Gurage Zone" namely Kebena and Wolane people, the former two speak completely different languages from Gurage instead they had formed the basis for the early Hadiya kingdom. Main issues here is the belief that Shewa means Oromo people or Gurage in sources designate Gurage people. Gurage and Shewa are historical regions that have various ethnic groups. Magherbin (talk) 22:06, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Magherbin, thank you for your input. However, the quote you provided from Delibo (pg. 101) doesn’t support your claim that Habte Giyorgis fought for Hassan Enjamo or that he was from Hadiya. In fact, it emphasizes his Gurage heritage, which Delibo and other sources, such as Cerulli and Tafla, have already stated. The passage specifically notes that Habte Giyorgis was involved in conflicts against his own Gurage people, which aligns with my earlier argument about his capture during Ras Gobana’s Gurage campaigns.

I started this topic so you can provide more evidence of your claims. Like with the Edit wars of him being Oromo or Gurage, we had came to an agreement that it was a contested since there was adequate sources that claimed he was Oromo or Gurage. There is numerous amounts of evidence of that which are listed already in the article's references that back those claims, I suggest you look over the previous Talk topics that discussed this.

You're making a false cause fallacy by assuming that because Hadiya controlled Gurage at some point, Habte Giyorgis must have been Hadiya. Political control over a region doesn’t equate to the ethnic identity of individuals from that area. You’re jumping from one truth to an unsupported conclusion: yes, Hadiya may have controlled Gurage, but that doesn't automatically make someone from Gurage Hadiya. You're linking two unrelated points without any direct evidence regarding Habte. If you’re claiming Habte was Hadiya, you need to provide clear, specific proof connecting him to that ethnicity, not rely on broad historical circumstances that may or may not have happened. Like you said yourself his lineage is contested, however from what the evidence we do have, it is only Oromo or Gurage. There has been no sources claiming any other ethnicty other than those two, so please provide us clear evidence like when Delibo in 101 "However, in the following year, Habte-Giyorgis, the native son of Gurage" and in Milkias 221 "Fitawrari Habte Giorgis were pure Oromos" in 182 and Tafla in 124 "Born in Čabo, a district in Southwestern Shoa bordering the Guragé region" [3]

Moreover, you have yet to provide any sources that directly state Habte fought for Enjamo or that he was Hadiya. If we are to make such claims, we need verifiable evidence from reliable sources. Let’s stick to the facts backed by the material at hand to avoid speculative edits. I would very much come to a consensus to this and citations are necessary, I have already gave reasons as to why Delibo's account don't back your two claims above so please list at least two different sources that back your two specific claims. I expect sources that back your claim that 1. Habte fought for Injamo, you have edited "was initially captured fighting under the Hadiya army led by Hassan Enjamo, he would however later switch allegiance" and 2. Habte was from/born in Hadiya, suggesting he was Hadiyan. you edited in the born section "Southwest Shewa or Hadiya".

You must meet Wikipedia's standard of Verifiability and Undue weight. Your source does not back your claim he was Hadiya or had allegiance to Enjamo, the only quote or source you provided to back your two points wasn't claiming Habte from the Hadiya ethnicity and no source for him having allegiances for Enjamo.

In your response please cite evidence burden of proof is on you as you made the first edit introducing those two claims. I await your sources.

[3] TAFLA, BAIRU (1968). "Two Ethiopian Biographies". Journal of Ethiopian Studies. 6 (1): 123–130. ISSN 0304-2243. JSTOR 41965771. Jpduke (talk) 02:39, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

The quote states he fought against the Hadiya which Dilebo says was his own people, and Hadiya "state" occupied all of Gurage, the state included the Gurage who had obtained high positions. I didnt conclude Hadiya mentioned in the text was discussing the ethnic group so i'm not sure what your argument is here. Unless there's references that Gurage were resisting on their own and Habte was apart of it then provide the sources for that. The text does not state he was picked up from Shewa as your edit indicates. Ignoring my points isnt helpful for this discussion. Interpret the statement I quoted yourself if you want and ill see if it should be changed to that. I dont want the reference by Dilebo to add on to his "Waliso origin" on here, its not new information or that he was "picked up" from shewa which the source doesnt even state, please read Wikipedia:No original research. Magherbin (talk) 04:46, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

If you wish to discuss his Waliso Origin please start a new topic, this topic was started regarding your edits 1. Habte fought for Injamo. 2. Habte was from/born in Hadiya, suggesting he was Hadiyan. I did not ignore your point, you have been ignoring these two points even though it was the reason for starting this topic. Like I said when you make an edit the burden of proof is on you to back it and so far there is egregious lack of evidence from your claims. Making logical connections saying Hadiya state occupied all of Gurage does not constitute as a source, even if were true that is not evidence Habte was Hadiyan, you must provide evidence that connects them directly equivalent to that of Milkias, Talfa, and Cerulli, which Delibo cites many times when writing about Habte.

I have already explained why that quote was referring to his Gurage ethnicity, there are multiple times where Delibo says Habte was from Gurage as well. And there are even more sources that claim his ethnicity was Gurage and Oromo which line up to his birth town Waliso which is on the border of those two ethnicity, I have provided sources for them in my previous responses. I don't want to repeat myself and you seem to be ignoring my request for sources. You are using the "my people" as your only source to back your two points that I keep asking you to defend. If you fail to find any sources that doesn't support your two claims then I don't think we can come to a consensus. Jpduke (talk) 14:47, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

I have made a request for a third opinion Jpduke (talk) 15:10, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Are you connected to this individual? I see that you only mostly edit this article. I dont believe you're reading my replies at all and I don't think you even read the content. Read it again and reply here. Nowhere is there a claim being made that he's Hadiyan in the article. I've also requested you interpret the reference yourself and make a draft regarding what it should state instead but again you've declined that and are requesting a third person opinion. See Wikipedia:Competence is required. So let me be clear, summarize the following line yourself and tell me what it should state instead: "It has been noted above that Ras Gobana suffered three successive defeats at the hands of the Gurage-Hadiye under Injamo. Finally, when the Oromo warlord came for the fourth trial, Habte Giyorgis asked the former to let him demonstrate his bravery and courage against his own people"-p.102 Dilebo. Magherbin (talk) 19:37, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

"It has been noted above that Ras Gobana suffered three successive defeats at the hands of the Gurage-Hadiye under Injamo. Finally, when the Oromo warlord came for the fourth trial, Habte Giyorgis asked the former to let him demonstrate his bravery and courage against his own people. According to a contemporary report: "They said the fitawrari, Habta Giyorgis, 'give me thecommand of Kabiena. I will fight with Hasan Ingamo. The river knows the dwellers on its banks.' The fitawrari.Habta Giyorgis, native of Waliso, had command of Waliso,and so he descended thither. They gave him a hundred guns.When the fitawrari, Habta Giyorgis, was placed at the head of the Waliso, before he was balambaras,21 the Galla of Waliso, of Sulu, of Cabo, all the horsemen came to HabtaGiyorgis and said, 'We will be with thee. He then went to the Tulama Soddo and wholly destroyed the soldiers of theHoly War. He utterly destroyed the soldiers of the Holy War, and entered Kabiena. He built a residence for himselfa Kabiena and remained there six months.22" It was in March, 1889, that Habte Giyorgis under Gobana's direction defeated and occupied the Gurage once and for all. Because of their long and stubborn resistance, Menelik severely punished the Gurage and gave the most fertile part of their land, Chaba Woudema,to Habte Giyorgis and subsequently to the government. "For this victory, Chaha Woudema, over two-thirds of the most fertile land of 25 the Chaha tribe, was decreed the private property of the Fitawrari." Gurage was a relatively small and poor country in contrast to other Sidama countries beyond it. But, from the strategic point of view, it was an essential base for Menelik's southern expansion just as Wollo had been for the northern expansion." [22] contemporary report Delibo mentioned was Cerulli's Folk-literature of the Galla pg 163-164.

I included the full account from Delibo, from the entire excerpt which you excluded, it is clear the author is distinctly talking about his Gurage ethnicity. Delibo calls Habte "son of Waliso", which is on the border of Oromia and Gurage, he then continues to talk about Gurage exclusively without mentioning Hadiya at all.

Another expert from Delibo page 101 "However, in the following year, Habte-Giyorgis, the native son of Gurage, destroyed the Gurage-Hadiya coalition and brought the Gurage under the Manzian rule" Delibo is clearly talking about Habte's Gurage ethnicity when saying "against his own people". I am confused as to where you think Delibo is refering to Hadiya when If you read the entire chapter, Delibo was clear about Habte's ethnicity or people. Its not only Delibo too, all the sources cited on the Article claim he was either Oromo or Gurage, no mention of Hadiya. If you are claiming he fought for them, then provide proof that clearly says "Habte fought for Enjamo" which would back your first claim and if you are claiming he was born in Hadiya then bring sources that say "Habte was born in Hadiya". Discussing this further has no reason without sources.

You have yet to provide any other sources other than Delibo which still doesn't back your claims. In each response I ask for sources but yet it seems like you can't find any and resorting to personal attacks regarding my edit history. If you are not claiming he is from Hadiya then why claim he was born in Hadiya? Look what Delibo cites and my multiple citations, this in not a discussion about theory so please provide your sources or reverse that he was born in Hadiya and your claim of his allegiances to Enjamo which you have completely ignored to cite.

Like I said before I want to come to a consensus, however you are not complying with my request to provide any source or Wikipedia's Verifiability guidelines. I have explained to you why Delibo was referring to Gurage and not Hadiya. So far your evidence was contesting point two, which I just now explained is not sufficient. Point one is still not proven yet.

I am still waiting for sources that 1. Habte had allegiances for Enjamo. 2. Habte was from/born in Hadiya. "The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and it is satisfied by providing an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution" Wikipedia:Verifiability. Your sources do not directly support your claims, since you are not providing any evidence that directly supports your contribution. I will only respond until you do bring sources, other than Delibo which I have already written extensively on, or until a third party opinion is given. Jpduke (talk) 21:59, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Gurage-Hadiya alliance which was the state of Hadiya under Injamo is mentioned by the author hence the line shouldnt be removed. Since you dont have an alternative rephrasing of the content, it should remain the way it is unless someone else can reply here with an alternative wording. Do you accept the removal of Hadiya in the birth place infobox and the rephrasing of "Professor Lapiso states that Habte Girogis Dinagde was initially captured fighting under the Hadiya army led by Hassan Enjamo, he would however later switch allegiance and assist the Abyssinians in defeating the Hadiyans." to "The Gurage-Hadiye, led by Injamo, defeated Ras Gobana three times in a row. Habte Giyorgis finally urged the Oromo warlord to allow him to show off his bravery and valor against his own people when the latter arrived for the fourth trial." Magherbin (talk) 22:27, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Responding as you agreed to remove your Hadiya birth place edit. Unless you prove it, Habte was never captured fighting for Enjamo and that he was born in Hadiya. The problem is not wording, I am refuting your two central points. He was never captured fighting for Enjamo or was born in Hadiya. My first post under the topic explains why he wasn't captured under Enjamo, including clear and direct sources. I'm finding it troubling you have ignored every request for sources. Your only source, the quote, is not clear and direct regarding your two central points/edits. Unless you provide sources that follow Wikipedia's Verifiability guidelines, "The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material" and of Original Research "Sources must support the material clearly and directly: drawing inferences from multiple sources to advance a novel position is prohibited by the NOR policy". Please read both thoroughly so you understand why your edits are a breach of those rules. I will only respond if you provide sources that meet those guidelines or you agree to revert your two edits. Until then I will await for a third party opinion. Jpduke (talk) 04:16, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I'll remove the two edits if you admit you're personally connected to this article. Magherbin (talk) 04:51, 7 October 2024 (UTC)