Talk:Female foeticide in India

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No idea how editing works, but "selective stopping" wouldn't produce a biased sex ratio. That's just not how statistics works.

Female foeticide is not abortion

Female abortion is not "female foeticide". The article needs to be either moved, merged, deleted or rewritten as per the legal definitions of foeticide and abortion. --92slim (talk) 02:21, 14 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've just checked a number of dictionary definitions. Examples...

[1]: 1) (Gynaecology & Obstetrics) the destruction of a fetus in the uterus; aborticide 2) the act of destroying a fetus or causing an abortion. 3) the killing of a fetus; especially illegal abortion. Also called aborticide. — feticidal, foeticidal, adj.

[2]: 1) the act of destroying a fetus or causing an abortion. 2) Destruction of the embryo or fetus in the uterus. Also called embryoctony.

[3]: 1) the act of causing the death of a fetus. 2) the action or process of causing the death of a fetus

[4]: 1) Destruction or abortion of a fetus.

[5]: 1) the destruction of a fetus in the uterus; aborticide

[6]: 1) the killing of a fetus; illegal abortion, 2) Intentional destruction of a human fetus. 3) an abortion, specifically, the killing of a fetus.

[7]: 1) Feticide is the act or the instance of killing a fetus by assaulting and battering the mother. Feticide is an intentionally induced miscarriage. As a medical term, feticide is the destruction of a fetus. For example, a legally induced abortion during the first phase of pregnancy amounts to feticide. However, feticide will not include a miscarriage of pregnancy.

[8]: "Female foeticide or sex selective abortion is the elimination of the female foetus in the womb itself." (Handbook on Pre-Conception & Pre-Natal Diagnostic Techniques Act, 1994 and rules with Amendments, Ministry of Health and Family Welfare, Government of India, 2006.) Mr Potto (talk) 09:02, 14 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Only two of those includes "illegal abortion" as one of the definitions (and one uses it in the context of "especially illegal abortion"), several explicitly include "abortion", and the last one is a legal definition and explicitly says that "a legally induced abortion during the first phase of pregnancy amounts to feticide" (but when talking of it as a medical term).

Hope that is of some use. Mr Potto (talk) 08:48, 14 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the sources. In reality these are all the same medical definition. Medical vs legal is the argument I was trying to bring up, since they considerably differ (in the US; not in India apparently, since they use a more vague terminology). --92slim (talk) 08:56, 14 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

We had an edit conflict as I was adding a definition from the Indian Government, but I've added it now as link #8. I must point out also that I'm not offering any opinions here as to what the article should contain, I'm just collecting some definitions together in the hope they might be useful to those debating the article. Mr Potto (talk) 09:02, 14 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The question is whether the term is neutral enough to serve as a lemma. "Foeticide" implies that a foetus is an independent living organism, which is highly controversial. "Selective abortion" seems to be an adequate neutral term. The article should be renamed "Sex-selective abortion in India" or merged into Sex-selective abortion.--14.207.81.103 (talk) 02:33, 11 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Protected page

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Can someone please remove the AfD template from the article. I closed it as "Nomination Withdrawn" without realising that the article was protected. Thanks, — Yash! ^(Y) 07:49, 14 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Done Faizan (talk) 09:17, 14 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Protected edit 6/14

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I would like to edit the lede to be a bit more straightforward, and specifically cite the specific government document found by the helpful Mr Potto above. So would it be possible to replace the existing first paragraph:

The frequency of female foeticide in India, the practice of killing a foetus because it is female, is indirectly estimated from the observed high birth sex ratio in India. The natural ratio of boys to girls at birth is assumed to be between 103 to 107, and any number above it is considered as suggestive of female foeticide. According to the decennial Indian census, the sex ratio in the 0 to 6 age group in India has risen from 102.4 males per 100 females in 1961,^[1] to 104.1 in 1981, to 107.8 in 2001, to 108.8 in 2011.^[2]

with:

The practice of female foeticide in India, causing the death of the foetus in the womb because of the gender, has resulted in an all-time high birth sex ratio in India, according to the Ministry of Health and Family Welfare.^[3] The Pre-Conception and Pre-Natal Diagnostic Techniques Act (PCPNDT) of 1994 criminalized prenatal sex screening and female foeticide, making it illegal in India to determine or disclose sex of the foetus to anyone. However, there are concerns that PCPNDT Act has been poorly enforced by authorities.^[4]
The natural ratio of boys to girls at birth is assumed to be between 103 to 107, and any number above it is considered as suggestive of female foeticide. According to the decennial Indian census, the sex ratio in the 0 to 6 age group in India has risen from 102.4 males per 100 females in 1961,^[5] to 104.1 in 1981, to 107.8 in 2001, to 108.8 in 2011.^[2]

And delete the duplicate third paragraph about the PCPNDT legislation.

I think changing the subject of the lede to "the practice of female feticide" as opposed to "the frequency of female feticide" is a stronger lede, but I'm welcome to alternate suggestions on this. This way the lede has the definition with appropriate links, the notability of this practice, and the reference that this is according to a highly reliable source (Indian Ministry of Health). —Мандичка^YO 😜 02:34, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Administrator note Your changes look okay, but I need to see consensus before making any changes to the article. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:26, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Pinging some people who discussed the subject at ANI/AfD and other contributors to this page to see if any have input: Mr Potto; TheGracefulSlick, M Tracy Hunter, SamanthaBooth, SpacemanSpiff, Roscelese. Please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Female foeticide in India and Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#92slim and Indian foeticide articles if you need to catch up. —Мандичка^YO 😜 08:42, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support change. The article is about the practice, so opening with "The practice of female foeticide in India..." is stronger. And I think it's good to get the Pre-Conception and Pre-Natal Diagnostic Techniques Act and its alleged poor enforcement early in the lead, as it is of key importance to the subject. Mr Potto (talk) 09:12, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support - per Mr Potto and the fact the revised lede contains stronger references.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 17:30, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This looks ok to me. In addition, I'd say
Similarly, child sex ratio greater than 115 boys per 100 girls is found in regions where the predominant majority is Hindu, Muslim, Sikh or Christian; furthermore "normal" child sex ratio of 104 to 106 boys per 100 girls are also found in regions where the predominant majority is Hindu, Muslim, Sikh or Christian. These data contradict any hypotheses that may suggest that sex selection is an archaic practice which takes place among uneducated, poor sections or particular religion of the Indian society.
which is the last part of the lede, has to go as it's synthesis of the sources. I'm sure there are lots of sources to say that this is a current practice, so best if we don't try to bring about that statement by analyzing data tables. —SpacemanSpiff 17:35, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed the protection so that normal editing can resume. Sarah (SV) ^(talk) 17:48, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support - The current Government of India equates the crime of feticide (US Common Law) with abortion (specifically, sex-selective abortion, making it one of the few countries in the world, along with Nepal, to do so, essentially criminalising abortion regardless of the mother's rights), causing a further scar in the issue of abortion rights, therefore the lede change is warranted. It would also be helpful to include somewhere, maybe in the article of Feticide a throughly explanation of the Indian law, explaining the differences with other legislatures. --92slim (talk) 21:22, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oh by the way, the lede includes the same data on sex ratios in India's provinces 3 times over. Please be careful to avoid these kind of shortfalls. --92slim (talk) 23:10, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

- You ought to be careful with what you say. You do not have to get your POV across in all your posts and I would seriously advice against it; "criminalizing abortion regardless of the mother's rights" is pure unadulterated POV pushing and I would advise against making such irrelevant and factually incorrect statements.—SpacemanSpiff 04:10, 16 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  - Oh yay 92slim is back! As SpacemanSpiff pointed out, we're not going to insert any factually incorrect information in this article or the feticide article. —Мандичка^YO 😜 09:43, 16 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    - "You ought to be careful with what you say." No, I don't. Get over it. In fact, you should stay away from making completely irrelevant statements; don't like it, don't look at it - see WP:NOTCENSORED. Also, it is factually correct that the Indian legislation differs from the rest of the world significantly. --92slim (talk) 19:36, 16 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Data Highlights - 2001 Census Census Bureau, Government of India
^ ^a ^b Cite error: The named reference c2011 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ "2006 Handbook on Pre-Conception & Pre-Natal Diagnostic Techniques Act, 1994 and rules with Amendments" (PDF). Indian Ministry of Health and Family Welfare. Retrieved 14 June 2015. Female foeticide or sex selective abortion is the elimination of the female foetus in the womb itself
^ "UNICEF India". UNICEF.
^ Data Highlights - 2001 Census Census Bureau, Government of India

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[1] Data Highlights - 2001 Census Census Bureau, Government of India

[c2011-2] Cite error: The named reference c2011 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[handbook-3] "2006 Handbook on Pre-Conception & Pre-Natal Diagnostic Techniques Act, 1994 and rules with Amendments" (PDF). Indian Ministry of Health and Family Welfare. Retrieved 14 June 2015. Female foeticide or sex selective abortion is the elimination of the female foetus in the womb itself

[UNICEF_India-4] "UNICEF India". UNICEF.

[5] Data Highlights - 2001 Census Census Bureau, Government of India

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