Talk:Deaths in December 2007

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Robert A. Hawkins

He should NOT be listed as a notable death unless you are going to list all the victims of the shooting as well. Put up a wiki page about the massacre, fine (Even though that's the reason he did it... getting noticed) but he did nothing special in his life, and should not be listed in the "Notable deaths" section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hsox05 (talk • contribs) 19:09, 6 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sadly the victims are rarely notable, the media usually always concentrates on the perpetrator. Though I find it hard to call such indivduals notable, notorious is far more apt. Accordingly I've altered the opening paragraph of the article page. RMHED (talk) 23:13, 6 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As the Robert A. Hawkins page is now just a redirect, I agree that his entry at Deaths in 2007 should go. WWGB (talk) 22:08, 6 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree about this. Hawkins was personally notorious, but he also became notable, because "notable" has a wider meaning than just a doer of good deeds. If Robert Mugabe were to die today, would we say he wasn't notable, but merely notorious, infamous, despicable etc, and refrain from listing him on that basis? -- JackofOz (talk) 23:29, 6 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Or would we say Mugabe was notably notorious? or notoriously notable? RMHED (talk) 03:05, 7 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's not just a "doer of good deeds". It should be someone notable that has died to make the list. Lots of people are arguing both sides/contradicting themselves to make a point that he should be on there. If we are putting him on there because the event was notable, then everyone that died in the event should be mentioned. Again, the event is notable, not the person behind it. The way I interpret this page is that these are notable people who have passed away. Whether they be 'good' people, 'bad' people, one of the oldest people in the world, whatever it may be... all those people have lived notable lives. Their death wasn't necessarily notable, but their LIVES were notable. That's what this board should be. There was nothing this guy did to warrant being listed among people who had notable lives. He killed some people in a recent event. If he is on here, so should be the people who died in the notable event. The way I see it, if we are including the event, it's all or nobody. Hsox05 (talk) 18:55, 7 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I Agree, who knew of him before the shootings. If we continue to post 'nobodies' who have done nothing notable other than killing someone. Let's start posting the servicemen who give up there lives to fight a war. They are a heck of a lot more notable than a loser who murders. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.216.59.5 (talk) 09:58, 7 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

notability is not influenced by our personal opinions of the moral worth of the deceased. tomasz. 11:56, 7 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Right, it is influenced by the notability of the person who is now deceased. And no offense to family members of the victims, but this was not 'important' enough to have it listed as a notable DEATH in 2007. Notable event, sure. Notable death, not even close. Hsox05 (talk) 19:52, 7 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If Robert A. Hawkins is not notable, then Seung-Hui Cho, perpetrator of the Virginia Tech massacre, is not notable, but he is listed on the notable deaths of April. There probably needs to be a standard established for mass murderers, since they only become notable when they commit their crimes. Nobody thinks the Son of Sam is not notable, but he got to live after his crimes. If Robert A. Hawkins lived after his crimes, I don't think anyone would think he wasn't notable, since he would have suffered a trial and jail time.DandyDan2007 (talk) 19:47, 8 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I actually slightly disagree. While Cho didn't do much in his life prior to the "Virginia Tech Massacre", he was all over the news that day, you can find videos of him online talking about the shooting that would take place, and most importantly it was the biggest massacre in recent history. Though that is a terrible way to get famous, but he achieved recognition far above the actual massacre because of sending out the footage and the body count at the college. The one at the Mall was unfortunately just another shooting spree that has become all too common as of late and the person behind the attack is not anybody worthy of an encyclopedia entry. 5 years from now if someone brings up the Virginia Tech Massacre, I am sure people will remember the name Cho. 5 years from now people will probably remember there being a shooting in a mall, but they won't be able to tell you the person's name behind the shooting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hsox05 (talk • contribs) 04:36, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As some others have stated, whether or not someone is a good or bad person is of no importance on this page. Also this page is not a memorial to people. It is simply what it says on the tin "A list of (notable) deaths in December 2007". I am assuming that most of you who have posted on this discusssion saw Robert A. Hawkins name and knew who he was. This proves his notability. 194.200.145.5 (talk) 13:09, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wolfgang Assbrock

His last name should have only one "s", correct? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jackal4 (talk • contribs) 16:16, 8 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

His German name is Wolfgang Aßbrock. The German letter ß (see this article) is written in English as "ss". WWGB (talk) 00:26, 9 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The letter 'ß' is by many people, who don’t speak German, often wrongly seen as a capital 'B'. However, it is only used as a small letter. In case of capital letters it will be replaced by 'SS'. One exception: For a "Personalausweis" (ID card) or a "Reisepass" (Passport) the 'ß' is even used in a mix with capital letters. Therefore, in the docs of Aßbrock his name must have been written as AßBROCK. RX-Guru (talk) 09:14, 9 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Matthew Murray

This is the same thing as Robert Hawkins, and he even killed fewer people. This guy is NOT worthy of being on the notable deaths page! When you click on his name it links you to an event... even 3 or 4 days later (whatever it is now) he doesn't have a page for him, because he doesn't deserve one. Again, the event is notable, not the person behind it. I deleted his name once, but someone put it back on. These people that shoot 3 people then kill themselves are nowhere near worthy of being mentioned in an encyclopedia. We need to stop mentioning them unless it is a MAJOR event like the Virginia Tech shooting, in which the person involved got just as much 'recognition' as the event itself.Hsox05 (talk) 18:34, 13 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Alexander Antonov

This person was re-added. Is he notable? Probable suicide? There needs to be more than that to prove notability.--h i s ^{s p a c e} _{r e s e a r c h} 21:54, 15 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

nn student, i temp protected the page Secret ^account 21:56, 15 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

watch November as well. tomasz. 22:12, 15 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Carlo Felice Cillario

Copy of my post to User talk:Be best, who removed the entry I posted for Cillario:

Hi. I'm surprised there's nothing online yet. I've searched without luck too. It was announced on Sunday night on ABC Classic FM by Moffat Oxenbould, and he even interrupted his normal programming to have a mini-tribute to him. Apparently he died "on Thursday" in Bologna, Italy. I'm sure something will appear online in due course. Until then, I suppose I could be making it up as far as anyone's concerned ... although I promise I wasn't. Cheers. -- JackofOz (talk) 06:59, 17 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We have a cite now, so I've put him back. -- JackofOz (talk) 02:16, 19 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well done. I've been hoping you'd be able to validate this! Be best (talk) 02:10, 20 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Margaret Thatcher

Margaret Thatcher is listed as having died on 19th December with citation to follow, but I can find literally no suggestion of this anywhere else. Unless I've missed a huge news story, I'm suspecting possible 'wishful thinking' vandalism. I think it may be best if I remove it, but wanted to run it through the talk page first. SixBellsChime (talk) 23:43, 20 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Google has nothing. If she has died, there is no official confirmation, which would be the minimum for inclusion here. No harm in removing it or commenting it out, pending confirmation. ZZ ^Claims~ Evidence 00:55, 21 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Don't you think it would be quite a major news event if she died. When she does you'll know about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.202.153.186 (talk) 02:13, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. Also, User:SixBellsChime, I would appreciate it if you'd remove the line "wishful thinking", just a plain nasty thing to say about someone who is, at the end of the day, an elderly (albeit iron) lady. --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 02:47, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

i don't think that's necessary. it seems clear to me the "wishful thinking" is not on 6BC's part but just a phenomenon he was describing. tomasz. 09:47, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

canadian north american.

listing: 27th December Peter Wing, 93, Canadian politician, mayor of Kamloops, North America's first mayor of Chinese descent, stroke. Excuse my ignorance but if he is Canadian and Kamloops is in Canada, where does North America come into it? I thought North America was a geographical entity, or is there a enitity called North America that includes Canada. I have not changed it as it maybe correct, and this just a manifestation of my being on what sometimes feels like the largest non moving aircraft carrier in the USA navy Edmund Patrick ( ^confer _work) 17:57, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

as far as i was aware "North America" is indeed a geographical entity including the USA, Canada & Mexico, though i'm not certain about that. tomasz. 18:08, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks you are correct, all I had to do was ask wikipedia Edmund Patrick ( ^confer _work) 20:24, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Veliki Brat 2007 contestants killed on December 29, 2007

Should the individual entries for the three people killed in the car accident be linked to the Veliki Brat 2007 page? It's unlikely that they would be sufficiently notable on their own for their own entries, but the death of three contestants in a high-profile reality programme (and leading to its cancellation) is notable. I didn't want to make this edit myself as I don't know the policy or the correct procedure in such cases. Be best (talk) 00:32, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

They should be redirected there. Reality contestants are not notable by default. No notability outside that event.-h i s ^{s p a c e} _{r e s e a r c h} 01:21, 2 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Are you able to do that then? I don't know enough about how this works to set it up. Or you can point me at the instructions and make me do it for myself :) Be best (talk) 08:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Naheed Bhutto, Pakistani sister-in-law of Benazir Bhutto, car accident

That's a strange coincidence that she should die only 4 days later... anyone know if the website is a reliable source and this is legit? It just seems too weird to be true.--h i s ^{s p a c e} _{r e s e a r c h} 01:21, 2 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

it seems that the story was pulled [1]. I've not seen it picked up by the British or the Australian press, so it's a bit suss if you ask me.Be best (talk) 08:10, 2 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed the entry for now as the existing source is no longer valid and it's not been reported elsewhere. Be best (talk) 09:54, 2 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Shabnam Nahid Bhutto

Is this person notable? When it was first reported as a 'sister-in-law' of Benazir Bhutto, there was some current resonance because of the assassination, but a cousin's wife is a pretty tenuous claim to fame. Nothing in the source indicates notability.Be best (talk) 01:12, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Standard reference format.

Re [2], having the author, title, article date, and access date makes it easier to find a replacement reference when a URL dies (e.g. when Yahoo kills their news articles after a week). With just the URL you sometimes can't easily find a replacement ref. -- Jeandré, 2008-01-14t12:52z

Hi, this issue has been discussed previously at Talk:Deaths in 2007#References. The trend then was to maintain the present format for ease of editing and simplicity of structure. This is a high-traffic site and some editors already struggle with the current format. WWGB (talk) 13:11, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Muhammad Uthman AS-Said

I have reversed the death notice for Muhammad Uthman AS-Said as there was no such Prime Minister of Libya. Is it perhaps Muhammad Osman Said? If so, we need a better reference. WWGB (talk) 00:40, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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