Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Athletics

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Proposal for all-time 25 athletes/25 performances lists for each event

For a number of years now, there have been 25-deep lists of top athletes in many if not all of the major athletics / track and field events. But there has always been a problem with these lists - how to present marks that are not personal bests by the athletes but would otherwise be on the lists? And how many of these other performances should be noted? For the sake of discussion, I am calling these "secondary" marks.

The present approach is clumsy, arbitrary in how many performances are on the list, and the information contained so hard to discern, it's almost useless. For example, on the all-time list for women's 5,000 metres, we have the 25 top women in question, followed by this list of secondary marks:

Below is a list of other times equal or superior to 14:29.82:

• Letesenbet Gidey also ran 14:23.14 (2018), 14:26.57 (2020) and 14:29.54 (2019).
• Tirunesh Dibaba also ran 14:23.46 (2008) and 14:23.68 (2013).
• Almaz Ayana also ran 14:14.32 (2015), 14:16.31 (2016), 14:18.89 (2016), 14:21.97 (2015), 14:25.84 (2013), 14:26.83 (2015) and 14:29.19 (2014).
• Meseret Defar also ran 14:16.63 (2007), 14:24.53 (2006), 14:25.52 (2008), 14:26.90 (2013), 14:28.98 (2005) and 14:29.52 (2011).
• Genzebe Dibaba also ran 14:19.76 (2015), 14:21.29 (2015), 14:25.22 (2017), 14:26.89 (2018) and 14:28.88 (2014).
• Hellen Obiri also ran 14:20.36 (2019), 14:21.75 (2018), 14:22.12 (2020), 14:22.37 (2017), 14:25.78 (2016), 14:25.88 (2017), 14:26.72 (2019) and 14:29.77 (2016).
• Vivian Cheruiyot also ran 14:22.51 (2007), 14:25.43 (2008) 14:26.17 (2016) and 14:27.41 (2010).
• Senbere Teferi also ran 14:23.33 (2018),14:29.82 (2016
• Agnes Jebet Tirop also ran 14:24.24 (2018).
• Sifan Hassan also ran 14:26.26 (2019).
• Konstanze Klosterhalfen also ran 14:28.43 (2019).

Surely I am not the only one to ask how this mess is useful and informative to anyone. First, why is Gidey at the top here even though there are FIVE other athletes with superior secondary times? It makes little sense to have her on top of the others, even if she is the record holder, because so many have better secondary marks. And, why list a time of hers which would not even make the 25-list if made by another athlete! And, speaking of that, what is the criteria for cutoff for what secondary marks make it to this list? The cutoff time of 14:29.82 is slower than the 25th woman on the overall list - 14:29.50 - so why are we listing it here? I count four performances here that wouldn't even make the list! Most other lists have cutoffs with no discernible rhyme or reason and are as strangely specific as that (though most only have marks which would otherwise make it to the 25-list).

I propose a redo of these lists to address these issues. Instead of a list 25-deep of performers with an arbitrary list of secondary performances below, make the limit of all-time performances also 25 - and have a single list that goes 25-deep with the performances, adding the additional performers to make 25 of them. In this way, we can instantly see which athletes are the dominant ones, with many marks sprinkled through out the top 25 - the old approach makes any effort to figure that out tedious.

There is a further advantage in that this approach instantly allows a reader to know how a new mark ranks all-time. So, on the list below we can see that when Jakob Ingebrigtsen ran a new European record in the 5,000 m last week, he also ran the 20th fastest time in history. With the old lists, you'd have to pick out all the times faster than his time from the hodge-podge of times listed below the main list, and add them to how many runners were ahead of him all-time. If he or someone runs 12:41.00 tomorrow, we'd know right away that that is the 6th fastest time in history - his placement being 5th fastest runner in history, depending on whether it was a PB or not.

Someone better with making tables should do something better than this - like maybe italicizing the secondary times and rank numbers, and drawing a line after the 25th performance to indicate no more secondary marks, etc. In the end, this approach makes the lists far more user-friendly for the casual reader, and we don't need to constantly check those secondary marks - once one goes under #25, it's off the list!

This list, by the way, is accurate as of today, per World Athletics.

All-time top 25 athletes, top 25 times, men's 5,000m

Ath.#	Perf.#	Time	Athlete	Nationality	Date	Place	Ref
1	1	12:35.36	Joshua Cheptegei	Uganda	14 AUG 2020	Monaco
2	2	12:37.35	Kenenisa Bekele	Ethiopia	31 MAY 2004	Hengelo
3	3	12:39.36	Haile Gebrselassie	Ethiopia	13 JUN 1998	Helsinki
4	4	12:39.74	Daniel Komen	Kenya	22 AUG 1997	Brussels
	5	12:40.18	Bekele #2		01 JUL 2005	Paris
	6	12:41.86	Gebrselassie #2		13 AUG 1997	Zurich
5	7	12:43.02	Selemon Barega	Ethiopia	31 AUG 2018	Brussels
	8	12:44.39	Gebrselassie #3		16 AUG 1995	Zurich
	9	12:44.90	Komen #2		13 AUG 1997	Zurich
	10	12:45.09	Komen #3		14 AUG 1996	Zurich
6	11	12:45.82	Hagos Gebrhiwet	Ethiopia	31 AUG 2018	Brussels
7	12	12:46.53	Eliud Kipchoge	Kenya	02 JUL 2004	Rome
8	13	12:46.79	Yomif Kejelcha	Ethiopia	31 AUG 2018	Brussels
9	14	12:46.81	Dejen Gebremeskel	Ethiopia	06 JUL 2012	Paris
10	15	12:47.04	Sileshi Sihine	Ethiopia	02 JUL 2004	Rome
11	16	12:47.20	Mohammed Ahmed	Canada	10 JUL 2020	Portland
	17	12:47.53	Gebrhiwet #2		06 JUL 2012	Paris
	18	12:48.09	Bekele #3		25 AUG 2006	Brussels
	19	12:48.25	Bekele #4		18 AUG 2006	Zurich
12	20	12:48.45	Jakob Ingebrigtsen	Norway	10 JUN 2021	Florence
13	21	12:48.63	Jacob Kiplimo	Uganda	08 SEP 2020	Ostrava
14	22	12:48.64	Isaiah Kiplangat Koech	Kenya	06 JUL 2012	Paris
15	23	12:48.66	Isaac Songok	Kenya	18 AUG 2006	Zurich
16	24	12:48.77	Yenew Alamirew	Ethiopia	06 JUL 2012	Paris
17	25	12:48.81	Stephen Cherono	Kenya	12 JUN 2003	Ostrava
18		12:49.04	Thomas Pkemei Longosiwa	Kenya	06 JUL 2012	Paris
19		12:49.28	Brahim Lahlafi	Morocco	25 AUG 2000	Brussels
20		12:49.50	John Kipkoech	Kenya	06 JUL 2012	Paris
21		12:49.71	Mohammed Mourhit	Belgium	25 AUG 2000	Brussels
22		12:49.87	Paul Tergat	Kenya	13 AUG 1997	Zurich
23		12:50.24	Hicham El Guerrouj	Morocco	12 JUN 2003	Ostrava
24		12:50.25	Abderrahim Goumri	Morocco	26 AUG 2005	Brussels
25		12:50.55	Moses Ndiema Masai	Kenya	01 JUN 2008	Berlin

Canada Jack (talk) 00:46, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Am I really the only one who sees a need to clean up these pages? Thoughts anyone? Maybe I should start changing these pages myself? Canada Jack (talk) 16:04, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

@Canada Jack: I agree that the additional notes are a bit disorganised and I often disregard them. World Athletics allows for top 25 viewing on a "best by athlete" and "All" basis[1] and I think the best solution is to mirror that and have two lists, one for top 25 performers and one for top 25 performances. This will allow readers to see the rank of both performers and performances and is a bit easier to maintain than a combined list where it's likely that some editors will miss off performances and/or edit war over whether it should be a performers or performances list. SFB 09:32, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Same opinion as SFB, 2 separate lists will be easier to read.--Arorae (talk) 09:58, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

OK, I'm seeing these changes and am reacting negatively. Well, here's a problem to this approach; the tables will become drastically too long, as athletes run these races over and over again throughout their careers. This is especially true for the shorter races. Furthermore, you'll then have to dig up the best times from athletes from yesteryear for the sake of consistency. Otherwise, cut out all the times that no longer fit the Top 25. To simply put, one way or the other - but not both. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 05:40, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments - I've changed the lists a bit to make them more readable, here is the latest one I did - for the men's long jump.

Example. Can you name Mike Powell's top 10 jumps? I refuse to believe that he jumped the all-time best, without jumping previous distances. Surely, he's jumped at least 8.6 meters multiple times. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 05:48, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Ath.#	Perf.#	Mark	Wind m/s	Athlete	Nationality	Date	Place	Ref
1	1	8.95	0.3	Mike Powell	United States	30 AUG 1991	Tokyo
2	2	8.90	2.0	Bob Beamon	United States	18 OCT 1968	Mexico City
3	3	8.87	-0.2	Carl Lewis	United States	30 AUG 1991	Tokyo
4	4	8.86	1.9	Robert Emmiyan	Soviet Union	22 MAY 1987	Tsaghkadzor
	5	8.84	1.7	Lewis #2		30 AUG 1991	Tokyo
	6	8.79	1.9	Lewis #3		19 JUN 1983	Indianapolis
	7	8.76	1.0	Lewis #4		24 JUL 1982	Indianapolis
	7		0.8	Lewis #5		18 JUL 1988	Indianapolis
5	9	8.74	1.4	Larry Myricks	United States	18 JUL 1988	Indianapolis
5	9		2.0	Erick Walder	United States	02 APR 1994	El Paso
5	9		-1.2	Dwight Phillips	United States	07 JUN 2009	Eugene
8	12	8.73	1.2	Irving Saladino	Panama	24 MAY 2008	Hengelo
	13	8.72	-0.2	Lewis #6		26 SEP 1988	Seoul
	14	8.71	-0.4	Lewis #7		13 MAY 1984	Westwood
	14		0.1	Lewis #8		19 JUN 1984	Los Angeles
9	14		1.9	Iván Pedroso	Cuba	18 JUL 1995	Salamanca
	17	8.70	0.9	Myricks #2		17 JUN 1989	Houston
	17		0.7	Powell #2		27 JUL 1993	Salamanca
	17		1.6	Pedroso #2		12 AUG 1995	Gothenburg
10	20	8.69	0.5	Tajay Gayle	Jamaica	28 SEP 2019	Doha
	21	8.68	1.0	Lewis #9		05 AUG 1992	Barcelona
	21		1.6	Pedroso #3		17 JUN 1995	Lisbon
11	21		1.7	Juan Miguel Echevarría	Cuba	30 JUN 2018	Bad Langensalza
	24	8.67	0.4	Lewis #10		05 SEP 1987	Rome
	24		-0.7	Lewis #11		06 AUG 1992	Barcelona
12		8.66	1.6	Louis Tsatoumas	Greece	02 JUN 2007	Kalamata
13		8.65	1.3	Luvo Manyonga	South Africa	22 APR 2017	Potchefstroom
14		8.63	0.5	Kareem Streete-Thompson	United States	04 JUL 1994	Linz
15		8.62	0.7	James Beckford	Jamaica	05 APR 1997	Orlando
16		8.60	0.7	Miltiadis Tentoglou	Greece	26 MAY 2021	Athens
17		8.58	1.8	Jarrion Lawson	United States	03 JUL 2016	Eugene
18		8.56	1.3	Yago Lamela	Spain	24 JUN 1999	Turin
18			0.2	Aleksandr Menkov	Russia	16 AUG 2013	Moscow
20		8.54	0.9	Lutz Dombrowski	East Germany	28 JUL 1980	Moscow
20			1.7	Mitchell Watt	United States	29 JUL 2011	Stockholm
22		8.53	1.2	Jaime Jefferson]	Cuba	12 MAY 1990	Havana
23		8.52	0.7	Savanté Stringfellow	United States	21 JUN 2002	Palo Alto
23			1.8	Jeff Henderson	United States	22 JUL 2015	Toronto
25		8.51	1.7	Roland McGhee	United States	14 MAY 1995	São Paulo
25			1.7	Greg Rutherford	Great Britain	24 APR 2014	Chula Vista

Women in Red hosting Olympics and Paralympics

Greetings from WP:WikiProject Women in Red! Starting 1 July, we’re going to have a three-month focus (July, August and September) on the women of the Olympic and Paralympic Games. Your participants are warmly welcomed to join us for the event, documenting as many women as possible; additionally if you have relevant lists of red links that we should encourage participants to take up, we’d love to know. Thanks very much!--Ipigott (talk) 15:26, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Cannabis and sports

New stub: Cannabis and sports. Any project members care to help expand? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 17:51, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Medal tables

for the 2020 Summer Olympics, World Athletics just edited a wonderful and uptodate statistics handbook (download here. As the editor insists on, the book modifies a lot of doping cases since the last 20 years, solved or not yet solved, giving the medal to the right athletes. But this huge work will never finish, because IOC or IAAF/WA (for legal reasons with WADA) have not decided yet to reward the right athletes, and in some cases, giving a gold medal to a doped second athlete, is worse than taking off the medal to the bad guy or girl. By the way, I would like some opinion about the Medal tables that are edited by users without corresponding to the official sources (IOC, WA, EA and so). I think it is against WP rules, and especially WP:NOR to modify the official published tables, without any official source of the same level. Am I right?--Arorae (talk) 05:21, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

@Arorae: We don't necessarily need to align articles with official sources, as long as sufficient sources exist to justify that difference and explanatory notes are provided to describe the existing differences between the sources. You can see that on the approach on Olympics articles that incorporate info on the 1906 Intercalated Games (not officially recognised by the IOC but acknowledged by many other sources). We've also had to take that approach where errors in statistics have been identified - such as the 1951 Pan American women's javelin winner.

In terms of the specific issue of how to approach medal tables and Authorised Neutral Athletes (ANA), we should explain that World Athletics does not class this as a team or rank it in the medal table, yet many other sources do. A quick search for the 2017 World Championships medal table shows sources including Xinhua, Eurosport, London Evening Standard, and The Guardian all included ANA in the medal table and also ranked it as a team. That needs to be acknowledged because that means some sources will say Germany ranked tenth in the medals and others will say Germany ranked ninth. Our job is to gather and explain these multiple truths, rather than decide which one is right. SFB 10:12, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

You focus only on ANA case, but I have a wider approach. When The Guardian published a Medal Table in 2017, it may change since, quite rapidly after late DQ. and ANA athletes are not a "team". We do not read the same sourcing.--Arorae (talk) 10:18, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Competition record table

For competition record tables, such as in Jean Paul Bredau, are we meant to exclude events for which they didn't make it into the final heat? Or do we include them but leave the placement blank? —Lights and freedom (talk ~ contribs) 21:21, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

As a further question, which events qualify for the competition record? Do they have to be a national, continent-wide, or worldwide championship? —Lights and freedom (talk ~ contribs) 21:30, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Marcell Jacobs sudden popularity led to too much confusion in the article

I created the article year ago and kept it until before the Olympics following the rules of Wikipedia:WikiProject Athletics and the Wikipedia:WikiProject Athletics/Manual of Style/Biographies. Now I will arrange the article step by step according to the MOS of the project and detailing every single change in the "edit summary" of the article after each modification. But I'll go into more detail on my edits, explaining its, in this section.

1. In the MOS first goes the biography section (which eventually includes the career section) and then the statistics section. --Kasper2006 (talk) 21:50, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
2. World, European and National records need a specific section in the Statistics section. --Kasper2006 (talk) 21:57, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
3. Also national titles need a specific section in the Statistics section. --Kasper2006 (talk) 21:57, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
4. Add Others international meetings section (why national meetings and not Diamond League?) --Kasper2006 (talk) 22:05, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Caitlyn/Bruce Jenner Olympic articles

Not sure how the Athletic Project sees this so I thought I'd at least bring it up. We have an edit at Athletics at the 1976 Summer Olympics that is of interest and a related discussion at Talk:Athletics at the 1976 Summer Olympics. Just an fyi. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:19, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Not sure exactly what your intention is, Fyunck(click), but MOS:DEADNAME applies to Olympic articles just the same as it does everywhere else, per WP:CONLEVEL. Newimpartial (talk) 04:27, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

I just said to look with no quantifiers. I have no idea how others look at the situation. It's just to let the listed projects know what is being discussed. There will probably be a formal RfC on the article where more can speak their minds and it's always good to have more viewpoints. You on the other hand have inserted your own biased opinion on the subject here. Shame on you. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:41, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

For me the name of Bruce Jenner must also be kept. As for athletes who changed their name from married (e.g. Jessica Ennis). --Kasper2006 (talk) 05:38, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

@Kasper2006: that should be mentioned on the talk page discussion listed above where it will carry more weight. This was really just an fyi no matter anyone's feelings. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:41, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

The thing is, consensus within one project must defer to WP community consensus, per WP:CONLEVEL, the same way Talk page consensus does. What we have in MOS:DEADNAME is one of the most widely discussed guidelines in the project - and the argument, "but our project does X because of our sources", was explicitly brought up and rejected in the large RfC on the revision in question. A formal RfC on the article does not set aside site-wide consensus.

And Wikipedia does handle name changes when transitioning differently from other name changes (and has for nearly a decade). You don't have to like it, but the community has spoken on this, and the idea that they should be treated the same has been rejected, over and over. Newimpartial (talk) 11:36, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Updated Logo for the 2022 World Athletic Championships

Hey all,

New here but wanted to update the logo for the 2022 World Athletics Championships in Oregon, but have no idea how to go around that. Would anyone be willing to help me out?

Cheers!

*FDs

A bunch of Athletics related categories are being attacked.

• Masters M85 triple jump world record progression
• Athletics Asian Indoor champions templates
• African Champions in Athletics templates
• Asian Athletics Champions templates
• Athletics European champions templates
• Athletics European Indoor champions templates
• Athletics World Indoor champions templates
• Athletics World Cup champions templates

These need some comments from knowledgeable people. Trackinfo (talk) 07:21, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Is Rule 1 of WP:NATH still part of the SNG after the RfC on WP:NOLY?

There was an RfC on WP:NOLY a bit ago to change olympic notability from competition to medalist. The RfC dos says in the close This is should not be read to wholly supersede all other established subject notability guidelines listed within WP:NSPORT that involve the Olympics in some way. Editors may find that, for some Olympic sports, individuals beyond medalists may be reasonably presumed to be notable owing to their status as a participant or owing their place earned. Notwithstanding, does the rule have competed in the Olympics, the IAAF World Championships in Athletics, the IAAF World Indoor Championships in Athletics, the IAAF World Cross Country Championships, or the IAAF World Half Marathon Championships (former IAAF World Road Running Championships) still apply? I figure it would, but I just thought it would make sense to get input from people with much better familiarity in this than me. snood1205 19:05, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

AfD

Hi. Please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Salvador Alanís. Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 17:37, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Hi. And this one: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gösta Grandin

Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 13:54, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

And one more: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Friedrich Prehn. Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 10:47, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Pending proposal to declare NSPORTS (and NTRACK/NATH) an invalid argument at AfD

A new proposal is now pending to add language to NSPORT providing, among other things, that "meeting [NSPORTS or NTRACK/NATH] would not serve as a valid keep argument in a deletion discussion." If you have views on this proposal, one way or the other, please feel free to add your comments at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Subproposal 1 (NSPORT). Cbl62 (talk) 15:04, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Village pump proposals

There are several proposals located at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Sports notability to either abolish or significantly rewrite WP:NSPORT which may be of interest to this project's editors. BeanieFan11 (talk) 17:07, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

To be more specific, your input, one way or the other, on several pending proposals to alter NSPORTS would be welcomed. These proposals are as follows:

• Subproposal 1: Requires "all athlete biographies must demonstrate GNG when notability is challenged at AfD" and that "SIGCOV in multiple secondary, independent reliable sources would have to be produced during the course of an AfD". Also potential limitations/exceptions.
• Subproposal 3: "Remove all simple or mere 'participation' criteria in NSPORT, outside of ones related to Olympics and equivalent events."
• Subproposal 4: "Modify all provisions of NSPORTS that provide that participation in 'one' game/match such that the minimum participation level is increased to 'three' games/matches. This raises the threshold for the presumption of notability to kick in."
• Subproposal 5: "Implement a requirement that all sports biographies and sports season/team articles must, from inception, include at least one example of actual WP:SIGCOV from a reliable, independent source. Mere database entries would be insufficient for creation of a new biography article."
• Subproposal 6: "Conditional on Subproposal 6 passing, should a prod-variant be created, applicable to the articles covered by Subproposal 5, that would require the addition of one reference containing significant coverage to challenge the notice."
• Subproposal 8: "Rewrite the introduction to clearly state that GNG is the applicable guideline, and articles may not be created or kept unless they meet GNG." Further: "Replace all instances of 'presumed to be notable' with 'significant coverage is likely to exist.'
• Subproposal 9: Strike, as allegedly confusing and/or at odds with other parts of NSPORTS, the following sentence from the lead: "The article should provide reliable sources showing that the subject meets the general notability guideline or the sport specific criteria set forth below."
• Subproposal 10: "Require each project that has inclusion criteria based on participation in a league ... within the next 30 days to justify the inclusion of each league. Such justification must include actual 'random' (truly random) sampling showing that 90%-plus of the players in each league receive sufficient SIGCOV to pass GNG. At the end of 30 days, any league as to which the data has not been provided must be stricken from NSPORTS." Cbl62 (talk) 09:37, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

AfD

Hi. You may or may not be interested in the following discussion:

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Manuel Álvarez (sprinter)

Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 09:21, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Article request - John Young

A request was received at the Help Desk, purporting to be from John Young, requesting that an article be written about him. The original request is at Wikipedia:Help_desk#John_Young. Apparently he was a New Zealand-based runner, so I thought somebody here might like to take it on. --Gronk Oz (talk) 13:41, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

User script to detect unreliable sources

Main page: User:Headbomb/unreliable

I have (with the help of others) made a small user script to detect and highlight various links to unreliable sources and predatory journals. Some of you may already be familiar with it, given it is currently the 39th most imported script on Wikipedia. The idea is that it takes something like

• John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14. (John Smith "[https://www.deprecated.com/article Article of things]" ''Deprecated.com''. Accessed 2020-02-14.)

and turns it into something like

• John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14.

It will work on a variety of links, including those from {{cite web}}, {{cite journal}} and {{doi}}.

The script is mostly based on WP:RSPSOURCES, WP:NPPSG and WP:CITEWATCH and a good dose of common sense. I'm always expanding coverage and tweaking the script's logic, so general feedback and suggestions to expand coverage to other unreliable sources are always welcomed.

Do note that this is not a script to be mindlessly used, and several caveats apply. Details and instructions are available at User:Headbomb/unreliable. Questions, comments and requests can be made at User talk:Headbomb/unreliable.

- Headbomb {t · c · p · b}

This is a one time notice and can't be unsubscribed from. Delivered by: MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:00, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

AfD (2nd May 2022)

Hi. Please see this discussion. Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 18:05, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Per WP:APPNOTE - "The talk page or noticeboard of one or more WikiProjects or other Wikipedia collaborations which may have interest in the topic under discussion."

Paralympic athletics categories help.

I'm looking for some information regarding Paralympic athletics sport categories (or somebody who knows about sport categories in track and field). I'm going to update the Paralympic track and field medalists and I'm going to organise the medalists tables to sort them out into sections i.e. a table for amputee athletes, a table for wheelchair athletes etc. I've been looking at the 1980s Paralympic Games but I'm really confused on the categories A to J, I know that category A is for amputees, B is for blind athletes but I'm not too sure on C to J. If someone is willing to help, that would be very grateful. Thanks! SarahTHunter (talk) 19:01, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

2021 European Athletics Team Championships after 2023 reform

Hi! I am wondering if somebody else wants to participate in this discussion I'm having with Arorae:

Sorry to not agree with your comment here. Portugal is not relegated but Ukraine will be in 2nd Division (no more Leagues in 2023). I will not revert your undoing but please try to rephrase and to give better info. Thanks again. Arorae (talk) 07:42, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

The whole 2021 Championship page reflects the promotion/relegation (Super League, 1st League, 2nd League, 3rd League) as it was planned back then. You only changed relegation of Super League with incomplete info. It would be better to mention the reformat in a way that the page wouldn't be only partially updated. Pelmeen10 (talk) 08:00, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Here you have ordered in alphabetical order the 16 countries, thanks for that, but the previous order was not alphabetical, but closer to the last edition's order. --Arorae (talk) 08:01, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Things have changed since 2021 and you cannot write that Portugal will be relegated when it will not. --Arorae (talk) 08:03, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

What about adding 1 column for each standings table:

Pos	Country	Pts	Note	2023 position after reform
	Poland	181.5		1st Division
	Italy	179	Did not start in men's high jump (received 0 points)ref
	Great Britain	174
4	Germany	171
5	Spain	167
6	France	140
7	Portugal	97.5	Should be relegated to the 2023 First League
–	Ukraine	withdrew		2nd Division

Pos	Country	Pts	Note	2023 position after reform
	Czech Republic	320.5	Should be promoted to the Super League 2023	1st Division
	Belarus	315
	Netherlands	300
4	Switzerland	278
5	Turkey	267
6	Sweden	263.5
7	Finland	263
8	Greece	255
9	Norway	243		2nd Division
10	Belgium	242		1st Division
11	Romania	207	Should be relegated to the Second League 2023	2nd Division
12	Estonia	157
	Ireland	withdrew		3rd Division

Pelmeen10 (talk) 08:26, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks 🙏 very much for your proposal.

I think that the same text (“should be relegated to…”) would be better than “Relegation to the 2023 First or Second League.

Do you know why Belgium is ahead of Norway in 2023?

Yours, Arorae (talk) 03:46, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

What about the text in the last column? The Norway-Belgium case is a mystery to me too. Is it possible that Belgium actually finished ahead of Norway? Maybe somebody got DQ later, a doping violation or whatever. Pelmeen10 (talk) 07:45, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Sorry for not replying to you last year, I did not see it.

Norway will be promoted to 1st division, replacing Belarus.

now that we are close to Silesia 2023, we should modify the 2021 last edition, shouldn’t we? Arorae (talk) 13:18, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Sports results notability

Is there such thing as a notability guide for sports results? I've noticed that almost all of the Paralympic Games results are redlinked. I've looked in the Wikipedia guides but can't see anything so I assume that any results for sports competitions are notable? SarahTHunter (talk) 17:58, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

see Wikipedia:Notability (sports). it has a section called: Athletics/track & field and long-distance running, but I don't know how to link to a section on a page. Cottonshirtτ 05:17, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

it's Page#section Pelmeen10 (talk) 15:34, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

wikifying non-standard events

I have been working my way through the AAA Championships starting in 1880 and working up, and in each article I wikify event names so that they link to their own articles. Hammer, for example. but some of the events either don't have articles, the 4 miles run, for example, or because they are old they use the imperial distances, 880 yards for example. what do other editors feel is the appropriate way to deal with this? some options might be:- 1. create an article for events that do not currently have articles, 4 miles, etc. 2. link imperial events to their metric equivalents, 880 yards to 800 metres, etc. 3. ignore this, it is not an interesting question and the potential number of links is too small to make it worth bothering. 4. some other option I have not thought of. Cottonshirtτ 05:03, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Class S, L, M, SS, LL, MM

I edit in WikiProject Schools, and I've noticed that in the athletics sections of Connecticut high school articles, there's a lot of mention of "Class S", "Class L", "Class M", "Class SS", "Class LL", and "Class MM", or at least something of the sort. What does this mean? Looking it up, it seems that it indicates size of the school/team in the same way Class A, AA, AAA, etc. does, but where does Class SS and Class MM fit into this, if at all? And is there a way to clarify this to people outside of Connecticut, like with a wikilink or expansion of acronym or something of the sort? TheGEICOgecko (talk) 17:14, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

the information you want is on the website of Connecticut Interscholastic Athletic Conference. you click on the sport you are interested in and it will show you a page for the divisions for that sport. they appear to be different for boys and girls, so make sure you click the right one. Cottonshirtτ 01:51, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Can someone please help?

I have an issue with an editor deleting material on an athlete, but cannot encourage cogent explanations, and he has had the article locked. Discussion efforts are here, and third party input may be of assistance. 2603:7000:2143:8500:454D:C167:FEDF:A728 (talk) 20:25, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Any help with this article would be helpful?

Anyone interested in helping with this article Draft:Track and field in the United States would be appreciated. Dwanyewest (talk) 13:41, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Template for sports articles lacking sources containing significant coverage

The 2022 NSPORTS RfC added a requirement that all sports articles are required to have a source that contains significant coverage of the topic. To help identify sports articles that lack this I've created Template:No significant coverage (sports); please add it to any such articles that you encounter, and if you are looking for an article to improve the relevant categories may be useful. BilledMammal (talk) 13:00, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

• Two points. First, the RfC was limited to sports biographies, not "all sports articles." Second, the template has been nominated for deletion. See TfD discussion here. It would be prudent to await the outcome of the TfD before rolling this template out. Cbl62 (talk) 16:59, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

One of your project's articles has been selected for improvement!

Hello, Please note that Canberra Marathon, which is within this project's scope, has been selected as one of the Articles for improvement. The article is scheduled to appear on Wikipedia's Community portal in the "Articles for improvement" section for one week, beginning today. Everyone is encouraged to collaborate to improve the article. Thanks, and happy editing! Delivered by — MusikBot talk 00:05, 9 January 2023 (UTC) on behalf of the AFI team

World Athletics Tours

Can we move {{IAAF Challenges}} to Template:World Athletics Tours and add Continental & Indoor Tours (merge {{World Athletics Indoor Tour}})? And also split the defunct hammer throw challenge into seperate template? Pelmeen10 (talk) 17:57, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

@Pelmeen10: Done :) SFB 21:02, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Discussion regarding mass draftification of Olympians

You may be interested in this village pump discussion on draftifiying nearly a thousand Olympians. BeanieFan11 (talk) 14:27, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Any assistance on Draft:Track and field in the United States would be helpful?

Anybody who's willing to help out with Draft:Track and field in the United States I would be extremely grateful. Dwanyewest (talk) 17:55, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Project-independent quality assessments

Quality assessments are used by Wikipedia editors to rate the quality of articles in terms of completeness, organization, prose quality, sourcing, etc. Most wikiprojects follow the general guidelines at Wikipedia:Content assessment, but some have specialized assessment guidelines. A recent Village pump proposal was approved and has been implemented to add a |class= parameter to {{WikiProject banner shell}}, which can display a general quality assessment for an article, and to let project banner templates "inherit" this assessment.

No action is required if your wikiproject follows the standard assessment approach. Over time, quality assessments will be migrated up to {{WikiProject banner shell}}, and your project banner will automatically "inherit" any changes to the general assessments for the purpose of assigning categories.

However, if your project decides to "opt out" and follow a non-standard quality assessment approach, all you have to do is modify your wikiproject banner template to pass {{WPBannerMeta}} a new |QUALITY_CRITERIA=custom parameter. If this is done, changes to the general quality assessment will be ignored, and your project-level assessment will be displayed and used to create categories, as at present. Aymatth2 (talk) 14:21, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

German indoor championships

Last February I created Draft:2023 German Indoor Athletics Championships (it was not yet a draft then). It was moved to draft space because of lack of notability (?). Of course many German newspapers have commented this event. If it is not enough could someone here help me to move this article in the main space ? Thanks Arorae (talk) 15:14, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

✅ Arorae (talk) 13:14, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Track and field

Track and field has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Onegreatjoke (talk) 20:20, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Sport of athletics#Requested move 18 June 2023

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Sport of athletics#Requested move 18 June 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. - 🔥𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 01:21, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

AfD at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/South Yosemite Horizon League

There is a deletion discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/South Yosemite Horizon League that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Actualcpscm (talk) 11:34, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Tartan track#Requested move 11 August 2023

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Tartan track#Requested move 11 August 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. — DaxServer (t · m · e · c) 07:41, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Article importance assessment

Is there a project-specific guide for the importance assessment of athletics articles? If not, could such a guide be created? – Editør (talk) 14:13, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps something like this?

• Top:
  • sports (e.g. track and field, road running)
  • WA events (e.g. 100 metres, shot put)
  • essential athletes (e.g. Dick Fosbury, Usain Bolt)
• High:
  • non-WA events (e.g. 300 metres hurdles)
  • main attributes (e.g. javelin, starting block)
  • Olympic champions/championships (e.g. Athletics at the 2020 Summer Olympics)
  • world champions/championships (e.g. 2023 World Athletics Championships)
  • world record holders (e.g. Faith Kipyegon)
  • world record progressions (e.g. Women's 200 metres world record progression)
  • countries at the world championships overall (e.g. United States at the World Athletics Championships)
• Mid:
  • countries at the world championships edition (e.g. Jamaica at the 2009 World Championships in Athletics)
  • events at the world championships (e.g. 2019 World Athletics Championships – Mixed 4 × 400 metres relay)
  • silver/bronze medalist at Olympics or world championships
  • area champions/championships
  • area record holders
• Low:
  • national champions/championships
  • other athletes

– Editør (talk) 21:50, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Third opinion requested

Hi, in order to avoid continuing a slow-moving edit war on Camille Herron I am requesting a third opinion from an uninvolved editor. I am pretty confident that these edits violate both the Manual of Style and sourcing requirements, but the editor in question doesn't seem familiar with Wikipedia policies at all, considering they've repeatedly uploaded copyvio here or at Commons, and aren't providing rational arguments or really any arguments based in policy at all. Thanks for anyone who can take a look and weigh in. Steven Walling • talk 18:06, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

When an editor appears unfamiliar with policies, one can probably best assume good faith and point out the policies in question. I noticed that you've already posted a message on the user talk page, where you've addressed some of your concerns. If this doesn't help, you could also consider discussing these matters on the article talk page and invite recent/regular contributors to the article to respond.

Perhaps it can also be helpful to review this section WP:SELFSOURCE about using Instagram or personal websites.

Are there specific issues with the current version of the article Camille Herron that you want someone to look at? – Editør (talk) 19:50, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Another RfC on capitalization of all our articles

I thought this was a done deal back in this 2022 RFC but obviously not. A handful of editors did another rfc with no sports projects input at all. And it's being challenged because we just noticed it. This could affect almost every single tennis and Olympic article we have, and goodness know how many other sports. Some may have already been moved it you weren't watching the article. And not just the article titles will be affected but all the player bios that link to the articles. Sure the links would be piped to the right place if thousands of articles moved, but if the wording in a bio still said 2023 Wimbledon Championships – Men's singles or Swimming at the 2020 Summer Olympics – Men's 200 metre backstroke that would likely need to be changed by hand. There is also talk of removing the ndash completely.

Perhaps this is what sports projects want and perhaps not. Either way I certainly don't want projects ill-informed as the last RfC was handled. Express your thoughts at the following rfc. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:47, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Track and field in the United States merger

Should Track and field in the United States be merged into USA Track & Field or should Track and field in the United States be made a separate article. Dwanyewest (talk) 22:41, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Good article nomination for Femke Bol

The article Femke Bol was nominated as good article (sports). You can help review it. – Editør (talk) 09:06, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

FLC Dutch Athlete of the Year

I've nominated Dutch Athlete of the Year as featured list candidate. Feel free to leave comments. – Editør (talk) 18:43, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

This candidate still needs additional support to be listed as featured list. You can help by leaving comments or casting your vote. – Editør (talk) 10:41, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

FLC List of winners of the Amsterdam Marathon

I've nominated List of winners of the Amsterdam Marathon as featured list candidate. Feel free to leave comments. – Editør (talk) 20:43, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

This candidate also still needs additional support to be listed as featured list. You can help by leaving comments or casting a vote. – Editør (talk) 11:43, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

wikiTrackBot will be deprecating many older {{World Athletics}} IDs

Just wanted to communicate here that on Wikidata, d:User:wikiTrackBot will be testing every "old" {{World Athletics}} ID as following:

• A) If the ID is a redirect, it will create the new ID and deprecate the old ID,
• B) If the linked ID page is a 404, the ID will be deprecated,
• C) If the ID is a redirect, but the redirected page is a 500 error, the redirected ID will be noted but both will be deprecated. (this is a rare case)

The consequence of this will be that the categories Category:World Athletics template with ID not in Wikidata (for case A) and Category:World Athletics template missing ID and not in Wikidata (for cases B and C) should become more populated now. For the former category, ideally these hard-coded IDs should be removed from Wikipedia, and I will see about doing a WP:AWB run to remove or replace them. For the latter category, we will have to manually find replacement IDs. The bot isn't really creating any new problems, it is just exposing problems that already existed by actually testing the URLs.

Let me know if there are any concerns. More details can be found here: d:User_talk:Habst#WikiTrackBot_changing_IAAF-IDs_to_deprecated

--Habst (talk) 02:34, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

The task is done -- all the old format IDs are deprecated and replaced in Wikidata, and all three of these categories are now empty:

• Category:World Athletics template with ID not in Wikidata
• Category:World Athletics template missing ID and not in Wikidata
• Category:World Athletics template with ID different from Wikidata

--Habst (talk) 02:22, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

One of your project's articles has been selected for improvement!

Hello, Please note that Abdalá Bucaram, which is within this project's scope, has been selected as one of the Articles for improvement. The article is scheduled to appear on Wikipedia's Community portal in the "Articles for improvement" section for one week, beginning today. Everyone is encouraged to collaborate to improve the article. Thanks, and happy editing! Delivered by — MusikBot talk 00:05, 25 March 2024 (UTC) on behalf of the AFI team

WP Athletics Discord server?

Pinging @Stevencocoboy, @CooperRiverRunner, @Gbrn0, @Editør, @Jennypedia, @Daniel2023Sports, @Pietaster, @Hildreth gazzard, @Geschichte, @KnowledgeIsPower9281, @Brank718, @Melonseeds, @Seacactus 13, @Sillyfolkboy (sorry if I'm missing anyone):

I noticed there's a lot of athletics activity on-wiki in the past few years but not a lot of discussion or collaboration. With the Olympics coming up, I think it would be helpful to make a Discord chat server for us to work together on improving athletics coverage. Discord is a instant messaging program that you can use from your browser for more instant communication than wiki format allows. This has already been done successfully for some WPs like WikiProject Palaeontology (link), so I could copy their setup at first and post an invite link here soon.

(For those concerned about the proprietary nature of Discord, I'm open to making a Matrix bridge so it can be used with only FOSS.)

I don't expect you all to agree to join, but if a few do I'll make one. What do you think? --Habst (talk) 22:10, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi. I’m happy to, in a way that suits any one interested. I do have the Discord app on my phone as it happens, but not a prolific user so would have to re-familiarise myself with the quirks of it. Hildreth gazzard (talk) 22:17, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Fixing ping to @MelonSeeeds, adding @Kasper2006, @Montell 74, @Penultimate6, @Activist, @Aclevinger, @Trackinfo, etc. --Habst (talk) 22:22, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

For me talk pages suffice. – Editør (talk) 22:32, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I'd be willing to try it. Thanks for your coordination. Gbrn0 (talk) 00:57, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm good with that. To me, discords format is a lot easier to follow than talk pages. Brank718 (talk) 16:12, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I'll take a look, you can ping me when it's created. Pelmeen10 (talk) 18:06, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

I'd be happy to give it a try! KnowledgeIsPower9281 (talk) 00:11, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

@Hildreth gazzard @Gbrn0 @Brank718 @Pelmeen10 @KnowledgeIsPower9281, thanks for your responses. I've created a Discord, permanent invite link here:

Join Server

As a start, I created a draft on the new Netflix series Sprint here that we can work on together. --Habst (talk) 15:00, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

FLC Women's 400mH WR progression

The list Women's 400 metres hurdles world record progression is a featured list candidate, you can comment on its nomination. – Editør (talk) 08:14, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Meeting Record tables at nearly full width

I've recently been working on improving Diamond League meeting articles (with World Challenge meetings trailing by a few edit rounds), with inspiration from @Editør's updates of FBK Games. One thing I'm wondering about are meeting record tables formatted with style="font-size:98%; width: 98%;" (e.g. Golden Gala) or even 95% for both (e.g. NYC Grand Prix). Isn't this against MOS:TABLELEFT? Editør removed it from FBK Games and I agree. But since this styling is so widely in use (in the series tables too) I was wondering whether this is part of some established convention that should be upheld, or is just old cruft from wiki days long gone that can indeed be removed? Anyone got some guidance? --Xymph (talk) 20:57, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Hmm, I thought this would be a good place to get advice, but perhaps there is a more suitable place for this question? Or, everybody's busy? Or, nobody minds this styling either way? --Xymph (talk) 13:53, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

@Xymph, sorry, it seems like this talk page is not very well watched. For the record, I agree with you. I sometimes will change the font size of tables if they are long, but I dislike the wide tables present on many athletics articles and think it's better to leave off the "width" inline CSS parameter (and I think it's probably against MOS:TABLELEFT as well). I'm not sure who started the trend.

If you want a quicker response, you're free to join the WikiProject Discord server above if you are OK with using that platform. --Habst (talk) 00:34, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

@Habst, thanks, it was no problem, I first worked on updating and adding all DL Editions tables (the Weltklasse one was especially time-consuming). And have now updated the Meeting records tables. Styling seems omnipresent though, including weird cases like 75% width - almost calls for a bot task, except I guess it's tricky to determine where styling remains useful to make things fit, like font size 85%. --Xymph (talk) 18:02, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

DYKN Mixed 4×400m relay at 2024 World Relays

I've nominated a DYK hook about the mixed relay qualification for the 2024 Summer Olympics at Template:Did you know nominations/2024 World Athletics Relays – Mixed 4 × 400 metres relay. I realize it is a bit late, but maybe it can still be reviewed in time, so it can be featured on the main page on 2 August, the day with round 1 of the mixed relay. Your help would be appreciated. – Editør (talk) 16:12, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Leftpanel not shown it the Wikiproject page

Wikipedia:WikiProject Athletics/leftpanel is shown as wikilink in Wikipedia:WikiProject Athletics. Whats wrong with it? Pelmeen10 (talk) 18:59, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Both /leftpanel and /rightpanel were not changed recently, nor was Wikipedia:WikiProject Athletics, so recent changes are not the cause. – Editør (talk) 08:21, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Correction: /leftpanel was changed, but this doesn't seem to have caused the problem. – Editør (talk) 08:38, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

I've reported the issue at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical) as well. – Editør (talk) 08:42, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

A helpful editor changed the transclusion of the list of new articles with a link to the page with the new articles and now the problem seems fixed. – Editør (talk) 13:12, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

AutoWikiBrowser job to add the {{WP Athletics}} banner to most pages in Category:Sport of athletics

Hi, in the near future I'm going to start a WP:JWB job to add the {{WikiProject Athletics}} banner to pages in Category:Sport of athletics or one of its subcategories. I'm going to use some variation of this PetScan query to do this: [2]

This will probably involve at least a few thousand edits and will add thousands of pages into this project. The reason I want to do this is so that Wikipedia:WikiProject Athletics/Article alerts will show more related articles and so that in general we have everything tagged.

I'm going to apply some discretion, so if I think something is miscategorized I won't add the banner. Let me know if there are any questions or objections. Thanks, --Habst (talk) 00:52, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:DeAnna Price#Requested move 12 August 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:DeAnna Price#Requested move 12 August 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 05:36, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Armand Duplantis#Requested move 11 August 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Armand Duplantis#Requested move 11 August 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 05:51, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Dutee Chand

I've modified Dutee Chand and would be grateful if anyone could have a look at the article and possibly further improve it following Wikipedia:WikiProject Athletics/Manual of Style/Biographies. Thanks, Gitz (talk) (contribs) 13:01, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Nomination of Ronnie Harris (sprinter) for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Ronnie Harris (sprinter) is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ronnie Harris (sprinter) until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.

Left guide (talk) 06:50, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Need help with Diane Leather DYK

Please see Template:Did you know nominations/Diane Leather. The only thing that's holding this up is resolving some "citation needed" tags. It looks like the best source for a lot of this material is Athletics Weekly but the archives appear to be behind a paywall. If anybody here has a subscription and could run down those missing sources, that would be greatly appreciated. RoySmith (talk) 14:56, 6 December 2024 (UTC)