Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2014 July 14

Welcome to the Wikipedia Humanities Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

July 14

How do Western parents give blessings to their sons-in-law prior to marriage?

I was watching this video on Youtube, and it was the last part that caught my attention. The part where the little girl said something about a blessing. I looked up "blessing" and found that it was like a permission for marriage - a traditional Western marriage custom, I guess. Then, I checked out this website, and it mentioned that the blessing was the last part. How is the actual blessing given? What does the father actually say? Is there some sort of special formula for a blessing? Is it supposed to be like one of those blessings in the Bible - a wish that has magical but real powers (or at least people assume that it does)? 65.24.105.132 (talk) 04:30, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

There is no formulaic "blessing" that I'm aware of. If the father is a believer, he may say something like "may the Lord bless your lives together". --Trovatore (talk) 04:46, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

"Blessing" in this context just means approval, and it is usually somewhat pro forma. It is generally understood that, except in cases where the young lady is under-age, the father has no right or ability to keep the wedding from going forward. Rather, the prospective groom goes to his future father-in-law to ask for his consent as a sign of respect. While the father might say "Marry her with my blessings," or words to that effect, there is no standard answer and the words "bless" or "blessing" may never come up. John M Baker (talk) 04:57, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Note that, contrary to what the OP implies in his title, only the father is asked for approval. The implication is that women are the property of their father, but not of the mother (because the latter is also a woman). Not surprisingly, some women consider this tradition highly demeaning, while others think of it as a harmless traditional formality (which it is, in most families). --Bowlhover (talk) 06:29, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Just to clarify in case anyone might be confused - the tradition of "asking the father for his daughter's hand in marriage" may be traditional, but is also widely seen as sexist and antiquated, and in practice happens less and less. This article gives a more up-to-date picture. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:15, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Sexist and antiquated it may be, but there's nothing to lose and possibly much to gain. The plus side is that any suitor who does ask the prospective father-in-law would probably earn an uncountable number of brownie points, and since one marries not just the girl but the whole family, this can only be a good thing. By nothing to lose, I mean that if the father refuses his blessing, you can always say "Fuck you, pal, we're getting married anyway". He'll still secretly respect you for having asked. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 10:50, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

My father-in-law wouldn't have had any respect for me at all if I'd asked for his permission to marry. He'd have said something along the lines of, "Why on earth are you asking me rather than my daughter? What kind of sexist dinosaur are you? I was quite happy for you to marry her before, but now I'm not so sure." --OpenToppedBus - Talk to the driver 12:48, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

At which point, the young man might tell his erstwhile fiancée, "Your father's a lunatic. See ya." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:16, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Seems to apply much more to any father who does expect a request than it does to OpenToppedBus example. (If you wanted to do it, a better option may be two ask both parents simultaneous.) Also it seems we're talking about two related but different things in this thread. The stuff mentioned in Ghmyrtle's about.com relate to a blessing or father (or parents or family) giving his daughter away during the ceremony. This may still happen to some extent but AFAIK, it's been somewhat proforma for a long time anyway (as the wedding either wouldn't be happening or the father simply wouldn't be there or at least the father wouldn't be asked if it was known he would refuse). As mentioned in that page, nowadays it will likely be planned by the couple, in consultation with the family and celebrant so similarly, it's basically a formality.

The "asking the father for his daughter's hand in marriage" is seperate and AFAIK was supposed to happen before the man even asks the woman, with the man considering whether or not to propose if the father says no (of course further back, if the father said no it may not even be an option). Of course it still happens to some extent although as others have said even when it does would generally be pro forma (although it's obviously not something planned with all parties involved, so you can't be sure what will be said any more than you can with the proposal itself). And I think this happens less than some form of blessing or giving away during the ceremony.

Nil Einne (talk) 15:34, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

The young man tries to be polite and the old man rebuffs him. That's a deal-breaker. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:02, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

But the "deal" is hopefully between bride and groom, with asking the father merely a polite formality. Why would you forgo the bride just because the father does not conform to your expected stereotype? Is this some kind of original sin or a curse down onto the seventh generation? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:13, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Because you don't just marry the spouse, you marry the in-laws. If the father is that much of a jerk when you're just trying to be polite, what's he going to be like later? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:41, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

But typically, the father would have been well aware of the two young people's mutual attraction well before this point, and if he had any misgivings, particularly if he thought it was heading towards matrimony, he would almost certainly have expressed them. To have no inkling of any paternal concerns before asking, only to be denied his blessing, is the stuff of Gothic novels. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:10, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Incidentally, OpenToppedBus only mentioned the father in laws potential negative response to just asking. We should also remember the woman herself may not be very happy with the man having asked. All in all, I think it's clear there would be plenty of cases when there is something to lose simply by asking. Of course the man would hopefully have some idea beforehand, although I suspect in some cases the person may be wrong (particularly when it comes to the father although even with the bride, the level is going to vary a lot from person to person). Nil Einne (talk) 21:59, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Nothing to lose? Really? Imagine going up to a black man and asking "sirrah, I would like to purchase you from your master; how much would it cost?" Anyone with minimal self-esteem and a non-negative knowledge of history would find it highly demeaning. If a man treats my daughter as my property (and by extension, as his property after marriage), I would have suspicions about whether he considers her as an equal, and about what sort of other demeaning treatment she can expect during marriage. --Bowlhover (talk) 22:31, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

to me, that'd be an indicator that the guy has honor and will destroy anyone who tries to f** with her. also, he'll do nothing to her atleast as long as I, or for that matter any male relative of hers, are around. And still, sometimes, when I’m in my egalitarian relationship with an American guy, and I’m freezing my a$$ off in a mini-skirt outside while being eyeballed by some pervert and my boyfriend is giving me the “You’re an independent woman and you can handle this yourself” look, I can’t help but long for the protective paws of a Russian man, can’t help but feel torn between what I learned at my feminist university and what I grew up with in my patriarchal community, can’t help but feel an internal battle between my rational beliefs and my emotional desires(...) Y'all know what are realities of life and what is feminist crazy talk in no later than 50 years, after they (or they, or they) have managed to do away with police, the nation state and all the remnants of the public sphere Asmrulz (talk) 20:47, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Please consider consulting a psychiatrist. --Bowlhover (talk) 22:56, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

yeah, whatevs Asmrulz (talk) 23:53, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Connected to this is the tradition of the bride's father "giving her away" at the wedding ceremony, which consists of the bride and her father entering the church or other venue hand-in-hand at the start of the proceedings. In the traditional Anglican Book of Common Prayer wedding service (and probably other Christian traditions too), the priest asks "Who giveth this woman to be married to this man?" before taking the bride's hand from her father's and placing it in the groom's hand.[1] In more modern liturgy, this is optional or ignored altogether.[2] Alansplodge (talk) 21:49, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes that's the sort of thing mentioned in the about.com page linked by Ghmyrtle which is why I found the response somewhat confusing. Nil Einne (talk) 22:01, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

The custom is, as others have said archaic. Here is how Emily Post described it a century ago: as soon as he and she have definitely made up their minds that they want to marry each other, it is the immediate duty of the man to go to the girl’s father or her guardian, and ask his consent...Usually her father, has a perfectly good idea of what [the young man] has come to say...' It goes on to say they discuss the suitor's finances and the father decides on the date (usually immediate) when they can announce an engagement (please read the link, there's a lot more detail). The modern similar etiquette guide linked by Ghmyrtle shows how much things have changed. 184.147.140.76 (talk) 01:43, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

At my brother's (Anglican) wedding when the celebrant asked "Who gives this woman..." all the bride's relatives present stood and said "We do". The priest recovered well from the surprise when he responded by asking "Who gives this man?" and the groom's family also replied together. Afterwards we found out that the bride's family had planned the "stunt" but told no one, even the priest was surprised. The break with tradition worked well and apparently the precedent has been followed in subsequent weddings in that congregation. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 07:18, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Different scenario: In a case where an Anglo-American man proposes to his non-Western (Eastern European, Asian, African, Hispanic, Middle Eastern) wife (who may be first-generation or one-and-a-half generation or second-generation), would the same etiquette rules as stated above apply? 65.24.105.132 (talk) 03:13, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Surely that depends on the woman's personal beliefs and culture, as well as those of the parents? There is no generalization you can make about all non-Western cultures that is even remotely accurate. I'm first-generation Chinese and consider myself thoroughly white (a banana). Most other immigrants cling to their culture even at great personal expense. Even within China, by the way, there are 56 recognized ethnic groups, each with their own culture; within the majority Han group, marriage customs vary province by province. You're essentially asking "what etiquette rules apply on Earth?", without considering that Earth is made up of thousands of ethnic groups and 7 billion individuals, each with their own preferences and moral standards. --Bowlhover (talk) 06:56, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Taking into account of the woman's personal beliefs and culture is one way. Just being yourself and knowing about your own cultural norms is another way. If the woman or her family gets offended or confused, then I don't think it would hurt to give a explanation of your behavior. 164.107.182.111 (talk) 16:40, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

indeed, the "blessing" in that clip just means permission or approval. It's mostly a formality in America, but there are some families who still take it very seriously. The family on 19 kids and counting ask permission of both parents to date the daughters and ask advice extensively about the relationship, but they are in the minority. My own husband asked my father permission to marry me, which didn't go exactly as he planned. My dad was not expecting it at all and when his number popped up on the caller ID, he figured is been in a car accident or something and when he asked "can I marry her?", my dad sat there silent for a full minute and a half before answering. Well my husband just about had a heart attack, and my dad later told me to apologize to him for scaring him like that. My uncle told his future son-in-law he was asking the wrong person because it was his daughter's choice and hers alone. My parents and husband have the same view but it's traditional. I don't really know of anyone who has said no or who views it really as the fathers right to say no (although a similar situation happened in the movie My big fat Greek wedding Bali88 (talk) 16:52, 19 July 2014 (UTC)