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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Iwan Roberts/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ealdgyth via FACBot (talk) 23 August 2020 [1].

Iwan Roberts

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Nominator(s): Dweller (talk), The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 14:18, 9 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Something of a journeyman Welsh footballer, and certainly held in high esteem, nay legend status, by Norwich City supporters, the push on this article has been a joint effort between the two nominators, one of whom is not a Norwich supporter so was able to introduce some balance. It's been a long time in the making, we first started expansion around nine years ago, but we're hoping to finish the job properly and push it over the FAC line. Both Dweller and I will do our utmost to address every comment and query raised here, and we both thank you in advance for your time and effort. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 14:18, 9 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Kosack

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This is what stood out to me on a run through, nothing much for me to really complain about. Kosack (talk) 08:16, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you so much, Kosack. We'll get stuck into that. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 08:34, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, cheers Kosack. I've done the easy ones and left a few scraps for Dweller so he feels like he's still involved..... The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 09:16, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Kosack, I'm sorry it's taken so long to get back to you, I'm very busy IRL. All your comments should now be addressed. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 12:27, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No worries, real life takes precedence. I've had another read through and picked out a few more things:

That's probably about it for me. Kosack (talk) 09:18, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Kosack I got to your list, only two things remain, (1) Watford career - we're both still a bit perplexed, there was very little to write home about his time at Watford, is there anything critical missing? (2) Iwan's version of how many goals he thinks he scored, Dweller will need to check the book. Cheers for all your comments! The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 13:54, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I've checked point 2 and posted about it above. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 16:13, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Kosack and I've done point (1) with a little bit of helpful guidance from HornetMike on things that could be included. I think that's everything, please let me and Dweller know if there's anything else you'd like us to address. Cheers for all your helpful comments. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 18:49, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's it from me, happy to lend my support. Nice work both. Kosack (talk) 07:53, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by HornetMike

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  • It's definitely lore among Watford fans that Roberts lost his teeth at Vicarage Road. Sadly I can't find a cite! It's not even mentioned in this interview which you thought might have addressed it (might have a bit of useful Watford stuff - Colin Lee? Although is that also mentioned in his book?).
    Teeth added. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 14:15, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the Watford section there's a full-stop that goes straight into what looks like the second half of a sentence ("before moving...").
    Fixed. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 10:53, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure whether Midlands should be capped in "midlands derby" - the article about it on here caps it up.
    I'll fix that, thanks. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:05, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there a way you could combine the things Wolves fans spat at so you don't get repetition of the phrase within a sentence? Also maybe worth mentioning who Jack Hayward was?
     Done --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 21:01, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure what's going on with the paragraph that begins "He played eight games in Division One before finally breaking his league duck ..." - the first few sentences don't make much sense to me.
    Yeah, it's a direct quote but I would be tempted to re-write it into prose because it's mainly a statement of statistical facts, and perhaps only quote the "good heart" bit, what do you think Dweller? The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 11:55, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Phoo yuck, I really didn't do a good job there. I've tidied it up and hopefully it's far better for it, thank you. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 21:07, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would lose the quote about "the flourishing talent" of Craig Bellamy as it's unclear where it comes from. You could say he was 19-years-old (he's a July birthday, so was for all that season) to denote he was youthful.
    I've attributed the quote. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 12:05, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry to nitpick, and feel free to disagree, but reading now it almost makes Craig Bellamy sound like something existential! I'd personally still lose the quote, but up to you! HornetMike (talk) 15:57, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I reduced the quote to just "flourishing talent" but I don't think this is existential. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 17:19, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd say "first four years" rather than "four years so far".
    Adjusted per your recommendation. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 10:56, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "but misses by Phil Mulryne and Daryl Sutch proved costly" - given it was a penalty shoot-out they were immediately costly, I think "proved costly" better suits a scenario where a miss might be of no consequence (and possibly occurred some time prior to the conclusion), whereas in a shoot-out a miss almost always hurts you.
    Mild re-wording done. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 10:58, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Did Roberts formally give up the captaincy after 2002-03 or did he just gradually lose it by virtue of not playing much? If the former might be worth mentioning?
    I don't know of anyone who "formally" gives up being captain. Unless they do something particularly stupid. Perhaps Dweller has something on this, but I would just class it as business as usual to give the captaincy to the most appropriate person at the time. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 18:52, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't know. I've not seen anything in the sources. IIRC (which I may not!) in those days, the captaincy of NCFC was fairly informal, not like the ridiculous situation these days when Norwich have an official fifth captain or something similarly stupid. It's not like cricket captaincy that's actually important. Anyway, rant aside, I don't know of RS on this I'm afraid. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 08:27, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Ha, yeah, I always remove anything beyond vice, the rest is unverifiable! What I meant here really was perhaps not so much did he himself give it up, did Norwich name someone else for the following season (sometimes clubs announce it), or did it just drift over to someone else by virtue of Roberts not playing much? HornetMike (talk) 15:57, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    There are no sources that I have found which expand upon this relatively minor issue. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 17:19, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • In 2003-04 it says Roberts was no longer an automatic selection for the first-team, but then I noticed he only missed five league matches. Did he make most of his appearances from the bench? If so, would it be worth articulating that?
    Indeed, 2/3 of his appearances came in the last 20 minutes or so... The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 14:15, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I added some text around that. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 18:52, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Thinking about it, is "automatic selection" wording we should definitely use? Obviously there are players in every squad who you'd expect to start if fit, but if you take the term literally you could conceivably infer something different. Might "regular starter" cover things better? I don't know, might be overly pedantic! HornetMike (talk) 15:57, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Regular starter indeed. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 17:19, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we know how long he served as Gillingham caretaker manager/what the results were like?
    List of Gillingham F.C. managers (I know, not RS) says one game. Which they lost. The source in the article only mentions one game. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 14:04, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Maybe something ChrisTheDude can help with? HornetMike (talk) 15:57, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    OK, This confirms that John Gorman quit as Gills manager on 30 November and this confirms that Stan Ternent was appointed seven days later. this says that Roberts was caretaker for the only game in that seven day period (Soccerbase or similar can be used to confirm that the team only played one game in that timespan), although This confirms that he was actually one of a committee (for want of a better word) asked by the chairman to fulfill that role. Hope this helps...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 17:49, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    BTW thanks for bringing up "happy" memories of that godawful season ;-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 17:50, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it worth mentioning the following: Graham Taylor's departure in 1987 (given he's mentioned as a reason for joining Watford), his breakthrough season in 1988-89 when Watford reached the second tier play-offs (so I suppose you'd have to mention in passing our relegation the previous year too!), that he dropped a division to join Huddersfield, that he moved up a tier when joining Leicester, that in moving to Wolves he missed out on a return to the Premier League, that he reached the play-offs with Wolves, maybe that he remained in the same tier in moving to Norwich/Gillingham/dropped two tiers when joining Cambridge (but I wouldn't want the prose to become too clunky).
    Expanded the Watford section... The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 14:54, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Thing all those divisional moves are covered in prose now with the exception of Wolves (you can infer he stayed in the same tier with Norwich as it says he made his debut against Wolves). WatfordArchive says that Roberts started (and was subbed off) in both 1989 play-off matches, don't know if you want to mention that? HornetMike (talk) 15:57, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Well only if "watfordfcarchive.co.uk" is agreed to be RS which per the source review, it was not. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 17:19, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Similarly, any point in putting footnotes in the season stats to clarify that the Second Division became the First Division which became the Championship/the Third Division became the Second.
    No I think now we have the level in the table in parentheses, we don't need to try to cover the nuances of league nomenclature in this (and thus possibly tens of thousands of) BLPs. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 17:15, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The prose switches between saying Premier League and Premiership, while the stats table uses the former. I think whenever he played in it, it was called the Premiership?
    Prose (other than direct quotations) uses Premiership now. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 12:08, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure what I think about the book section. Had it been published post-retirement I'd say it should be sub-section of his post-playing career, but it wasn't so I can see why you've felt the need to have it as a headline section. I don't really think it justifies a mention in the lead, but then I can see why you might feel it does given it has its own section. I suppose an alternative might be calling the post-playing section "media and post-playing career"? If you do keep a main book section, I think it would better titled as simply "autobiography", the praise is fairly standard review stuff and it may be semantics but I always think you need to hit a higher bar to cause "a controversy" (as opposed to something containing controversial comments) - hope that (and the rest of it) makes sense! HornetMike (talk) 08:54, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, I dithered a bit about the placement of the section. It did attract headlines because of the ban and its perceived unfairness, both on Gillingham and in contrast to the treatment of more feted footballers. Agree about retitling the section, but it's not actually an "autobiography": although it includes significant autobiographical detail, it does so in the framework of a season diary, which is why we've found awkward gaps [pun intended]. I think I'll have to change it to the book's title. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 09:31, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
HornetMike I think we've addressed and/or responded to all of your comments above. Thanks once again for your very helpful and constructive review. Let us know if there's anything else you find. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 17:01, 30 July 2020 (UTC) (and Dweller)[reply]
Sorry for the delay in response, thanks for looking through all that. I've added a couple of (probably overly pedantic) in-line comments and some quibbles to follow, but looks good to me, happy to support. HornetMike (talk) 15:57, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
HornetMike cheers. Would you mind changing your header to reflect your support just to give the co-ordinators an easier time? Thanks. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 17:19, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Oldelpaso

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Hello guys, its been a while. Lets see if I can remember how this place works.

Support from Girth Summit

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Sports articles are not my usual bag, so some of my comments below might well be out of step with our norms - feel free to disregard any that are tosh.

That's it from an initial read-through. GirthSummit (blether) 11:07, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Girth Summit I think we've covered your comments, could you let us know? Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 13:55, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The Rambling Man Looking good. One more thought - do you think we should distance ourselves a bit further from Roberts's description of Wolves fans, perhaps with the insertion of a 'what he describes as' before the stuff about their arrogant etc behaviour? I realise we start the sentence with an attribution, but since the comments are so strong I wonder if we should be extra careful in our wording? I'll leave that to your discretion, I'm happy to support this for FA. GirthSummit (blether) 14:07, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Girth Summit Thanks, I'll talk it over with Dweller as I share your concerns on that one quote. Would you be able to change your section heading to say support if possible? Cheers, The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 17:19, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, done. GirthSummit (blether) 18:17, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Lee Vilenski

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I may end up claiming points towards the wikicup. Hope you don't mind! :P

Of course! The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 11:04, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'll take a look at this article, and give some comments on how it meets the FA criteria in a little while. If you fancy doing some QPQ, I have a list of items that can be looked at here. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 20:03, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Not 100% familiar with BLPs at FAC, but I'd assume it's pretty much the same as the regular BLP policies, so if I see anything I'll bring it up. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 20:16, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Lee Vilenski I believe we've addressed and/or responded to all of your comments. Thanks for your review! Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 17:17, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think so, I'm happy here, unless someone drags up something major I've missed. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 18:37, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review: pass

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Formatting and consistency

Quality and coverage

Not convinced it is. It's a Norfolk Christian news website. It's a fairly minor claim. We could remove the claim altogether if you prefer, I find nothing else on it. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 19:11, 9 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If it can't be cited elsewhere, then it should be removed, yes. Harrias talk 08:26, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
 Done --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 09:47, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

More to follow. Harrias talk 07:32, 6 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Harrias I've done the "technical" ones bar one dead link, Dweller can make the cases for the RS queries, and hopefully find a replacement for the dead one. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 10:34, 6 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Harrias okay, first pass done (apart from the RS), ready when you are for any more "technical" issues. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 14:41, 6 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That looks to be it on formatting and consistency, I think it is mostly waiting on the RS queries. Harrias talk 15:01, 6 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Harrias I think your comments have been adressed. Do let me know if there's anything else, cheers. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 13:28, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yup, I'm happy that this meets the FA sourcing criteria. I can't remember if I said, but obligatory notice that I will claim WikiCup points for this review. Harrias talk 13:45, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Harrias --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 14:50, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

More formatting from Noswall59

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I hope you (TRM and Harrias) don't mind if I chime in with some further formatting queries.

Many thanks, —Noswall59 (talk) 11:11, 13 August 2020 (UTC).[reply]

Noswall59 cheers, I've responded to all the points above, one major outstanding issue which I won't be able to address until this evening. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 12:55, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The Rambling Man thanks. I've just made a few minor tweaks. All looks good to me now. Cheers, —Noswall59 (talk) 15:54, 13 August 2020 (UTC).[reply]

Image review—pass

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Image licensing and placement are suitable, no issues (t · c) buidhe 20:14, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 20:32, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, buidhe --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 14:49, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@FAC coordinators: I think we're done here? Cheers. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 20:32, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note

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@Oldelpaso and HornetMike: How are things looking to you? --Ealdgyth (talk) 14:49, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We have tried this (I pinged HornetMike on 30 July and Dweller pinged Oldelpaso on 28 July), but both are pretty much semi-retired, Mike has made 250 edits in the last 2.5 years while Oldelpaso took more than seven years to rack up his last 250 contribs... The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 16:18, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
TRM... oddly enough, I did see the pings, but yes, it's just part of being a coord to do my own pings. Sometimes pings from a coord get more response than ones for other editors. I appreciate your attempts to help out ... and mostly they work fine, but please do let the coords do their own pings and other stuff as they see fit. --Ealdgyth (talk) 14:18, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No need for exasperation, I don't see a good reason why any one ping is more likely to have an impact than any other to be frank, but hey. Another week's wait I guess. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 14:46, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm happy to wait another week. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 14:49, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I am hoping it won't be more than a day or two. Assuming that my sinuses don't make me sick again. --Ealdgyth (talk) 15:03, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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