Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Taberg, New York

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. It's now clearly designated as a hamlet, which exists, and is notable as such. NativeForeigner ^Talk/_Contribs 01:45, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Taberg, New York

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Simply put, this place doesn't exist. According to the article, it's a town in Oneida County, New York. First off, please read Town (New York), where you'll see that a New York town is a kind of municipality, not just any clump of houses and businesses. Next, look at U.S. Census Bureau data: the article claims that Taberg had a certain population in the 2000 census. Data for all New York towns are available at http://factfinder.census.gov; go there and put "Taberg" in the "city/ town, county, or zip" line and select New York for the state; you'll be told that there was no such place at the 2000 census. Next, go to http://www2.census.gov/geo/maps/general_ref/cousub_outline/cen2k_pgsz/ny_cosub.pdf, a map of the state as of the 2000 census that shows all municipalities. Oneida County is on page 8; look through it and you'll see that there is no town of Taberg. What's more, the "Goverment" section of this article says that Taberg is within the city of Annsville, and yet the intro says that it's southeast of Annsville. For one thing, note that Annsville, New York is a town, not a city; as well, you'll notice that the map of the state shows only Vienna, Rome, Lee, and Ava being either east or south of Annsville. As well, please understand that municipalities can't be within each other in New York, so there's nowhere for a supposed town of Taberg to exist. Finally, please note that everything in the article relies on 2000-era data, at which point I've proven that this town didn't exist; if it's since been created, it would appear (but it doesn't) in http://www.census.gov/popest/cities/files/SUB-EST2008-36.csv, a chart listing populations for all municipalities in New York that existed at any point between 2000 and 2008. Nyttend (talk) 12:21, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to Annsville, New York, where it is already mentioned as a hamlet. Taberg was a mining settlement and post office station and could probably be made into a valid article if one wanted to. --Polaron | Talk 13:14, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've found Taberg on the map for you: 43°18′15″N 75°37′00″W / 43.304192°N 75.616721°W / 43.304192; -75.616721. Note the existence of Blossvale to the south of Taberg down County Road 66 and Blennes Corner and Pine Hill to the west, along New York State Route 69, exactly as implied by Annsville, New York#Communities and locations in Annsville.
I think that the nub of the problem here is that the geographic coördinates of Annsville, New York take one to a completely different part of the state, and information has been added to that article that isn't about the Annsville that is to the north of Peekskill in Westchester County. Taberg, you'll note, is in Oneida County, just as our Annsville, New York article claims Annsville to be. Two quite different parts of New York appear to have been conflated in our Annsville article, all the way back in 2005. There's no Annsville on the map near Taberg in Oneida County, and there's no Taberg near the Annsville on the map in Westchester County. Uncle G (talk) 13:42, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not sure what you mean here. Where did Peekskill and Westchester County come in to the picture? --Polaron | Talk 14:24, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - Then you haven't followed the geographic coördinates maplink in our Annsville, New York article. It's right at the top of the page and easy to find. Follow it, and be enlightened. ☺ Uncle G (talk) 14:41, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - [edit conflict] Are you saying that Annsville isn't in Oneida County? The 2000 census map shows that it's in northwestern Oneida County, northwest of Rome and west of Lee, among other places. Moreover, see its GNIS feature record. Nyttend (talk) 14:26, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - Now follow the maplink that I gave to you, and look at several other maps. Uncle G (talk) 14:41, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      - It was this edit by TheAnomebot2 that was confused. Otherwise the article from its very beginning has been about the Oneida town. --Polaron | Talk 14:46, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - There is an Annsville hamlet in Cortlandt town in Westchester County. However, our Annsville article has always been about the town in Oneida County so there is no mix up in the articles in question. Wikipedia has never had an article about the Annsville hamlet in Cortlandt town. --Polaron | Talk 14:32, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - Ah, I see what you mean. Uncle G or anyone else — if you're unfamiliar with this New York usage of "hamlet", please read Hamlet (New York). Nyttend (talk) 14:34, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      - It's nothing to do with that, kiddo. Look at the coördinates given, in the article and here, and where on the maps they are. Uncle G (talk) 14:41, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Additional comment: Taberg is what one would call the town center of the New York municipality known as Annsville. One complication is that the U.S. Postal Service uses "Taberg, NY" as the address for the whole town even though the town is legally known as Annsville. Hence, the two names are used interchangeably. The demographic statistics in the Taberg article are for the entire town of Annsville. The history in the Taberg article appears to be correct and appropriate to the locality of Taberg. I think a merge is probably more appropriate in this case. --Polaron | Talk 14:29, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to Annsville, New York. There is information in the Taberg article that needs to be ported over. Carrite (talk) 16:25, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of New York-related deletion discussions. -- Jujutacular ^talk 17:00, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Taberg certainly exists; it has an entry in the GNIS, which I'm rather surprised hasn't been mentioned yet. Moreover, it has its own ZIP code, and precedent suggests that hamlets/unincorporated communities (especially those with ZIP codes) should be kept. (Since towns are MCDs rather than communities in New York, Taberg and Annsville aren't the same place and shouldn't be considered as such.) TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 00:09, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It should be considered though that Taberg is the orignal name of Annsville and that the ZIP code you refer to encompasses the whole town of Annsville. Being the original settlement of the town, the histories certainly are identical. It's not clear why we need another perma-stub. --Polaron | Talk 00:36, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

By "MCD", TheCatalyst31 refers to Minor civil division. Nyttend (talk) 14:17, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep or merge per my standards and the usual outcomes here. It is a real place in Upstate New York. Hamlets are notable, but may be part of another article. Before post offices and that Internet, people often named two hamlets identically or similarly in different parts of New York. For examples, the city of Oswego, New York and the hamlet of Oswego east of Poughkeepsie, New York in the town of Union Vale, New York, or Highland, New York and Highland Falls, New York. So merge or redirect, if need be, but do not delete. Bearian (talk) 13:54, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, folks, I did a lot of the early work in sorting out NY, and I just received a note that Taberg is a town in Oneida County, New York, which is UNTRUE. Taberg is a Hamlet in Annsville, New York in Oneida County. I just removed the 'town' references in the article and linked it into the Annsville article. My feeling about deletion or merge is that I felt that the trend to make every little hamlet its own article was quite unfortunate, since my original intention was, in fact, to put any extra information into the town articles. However, now every piddling hamlet seems to be destined for 'articlehood.' In the Taberg case however, this is a substantial article and Tabert is the seat of town government, and in accordance with my original intent to make article out of IMPORTANT hamlets, perhaps it should remain discrete. As noted, there is another Annsville, a hamlet located elsewhere. Thanks, everyone,Stepp-Wulf (talk) 05:00, 5 September 2010 (UTC).[reply]
Keep == a very strong keep, actually, We have articles about all well-defined hamlets at least in New York State and I think elsewhere--our level of inclusion is deliberated very broad: populated place. Look for example at the article for Islip (town), New York and the navigation box listing separately all its hamlets. If it has a post office zip code it's sufficiently distinct, for they have defined boundaries. It's not a trend to make every little hamlet its own article, it's the guideline. An encyclopedia contains a gazetteer, and hamlet are--as shown above--listed in gazetteers. There are plenty of references: see Google Books. DGG ( talk ) 12:40, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.