Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Perry Brass

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. After being relisted twice there's clearly no consensus regarding deletion. While I respect the debate outlined with Kraxler's opinion, there's still no other delete opinions that have come into light during the duration of this discussion. (non-admin closure) Dusti ^{*Let's talk!*} 01:01, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Perry Brass

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

WP:BLP of a blogger and writer, resting entirely on primary sources with not a shred of reliable source coverage in sight. While there's enough of a claim of notability here (past nominee for the Lambda Literary Awards) that he could qualify for an article in principle, that's still conditional on the quality of sourcing that can be provided to support the article, and is not a freebie that exempts a person from having to satisfy our sourcing rules. I've searched both Google and newspapers.com for improved sourcing, and found nothing — I'm willing to withdraw this if somebody else can find better sourcing, perhaps in a news database that I don't have access to, but he has to be better sourced than this before he can keep an article on Wikipedia. Delete. Bearcat (talk) 17:40, 16 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Poetry-related deletion discussions. Everymorning (talk) 18:06, 16 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

~~Delete for now~~ Weak Keep -Does not meet notability standards for author or creative professional as it stands, due to no reliable secondary sources. However, some quotes of editorial reviews found here: The 4 Lambda Literary Award nominations qualify him under WP:Any Bio. Prolific writer, though all his books are self-published, per this description of Bellhue Press: " All of these books are by gay poet and pioneering activist, speaker, and authority on gender issues, Perry Brass". Article is only a few days old, author could still be adding sources. ABF99 (talk) 04:05, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, —☮JAaron95 ^Talk 03:39, 23 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:14, 29 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:14, 29 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of News media-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:14, 29 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, —☮JAaron95 ^Talk 09:19, 30 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep -- I am a former gay bookstore owner (Liberty Books, Austin TX 1988-1994) and 'zine publisher/editor (White Crane Journal, 1996-2003) and activist/contributor to the "Gay Spirituality Movement." I have known of Perry Brass through all of these. White Crane Journal published reviews of his books (Summer, 2000 & Fall, 2007) and ads. I now work as a freelance editor with Lethe Press and know of Perry Brass as organizer of the annual Rainbow Book Show in New York City http://rainbowbookfair.org/author/perrybrass. I know Perry Brass as a longtime gay activist, gay community organizer, and gay publishing activist. He is a writer/contributor to Huffington Post http://www.huffingtonpost.com/perry-brass/. I think he is notable in American gay cultural history. Tobyjohnso (talk) 17:02, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It takes reliable source coverage — of which none has been shown here — to get a writer into Wikipedia, not editors asserting that they know the subject personally. Bearcat (talk) 17:56, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep not sure whether the IPPY Award in a category passes WP:ANYBIO (I added a source to the book Warlock), but there is a review of Angel Lust, a ton of reviews at "GoodReads", a review of King of Angels, passes WP:NAUTHOR Kraxler (talk) 15:49, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Reviews can help get a writer over NAUTHOR if they're in established literary or general interest magazines on the order of Publishers Weekly, Quill & Quire or The New Yorker, or in major daily newspapers — but not if they're in WP:BLOGS or on user-generated content sites like GoodReads or Amazon. Bearcat (talk) 20:35, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That would be a case of WP:Systemic bias here, the sources you mention wouldn't touch gay literature with a ten-foot pole. For authors, blog reviews are admissable, in my AfD experience. Amazon is a sales outlet, and I wouldn't come up with reviews from there. GoodReads doesn't seem to be a sales outlet, Or is it? WP:NBOOK says "The book has been the subject of two or more non-trivial published works appearing in sources that are independent of the book itself. This includes published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, other books, television documentaries, bestseller lists, and reviews. This excludes media re-prints of press releases, flap copy, or other publications where the author, its publisher, agent, or other self-interested parties advertise or speak about the book." You see "reviews" is not further qualified, anybody may review a book, as long as they are independent of the book, the author, and the publisher, and don't advertise or sell the book. Kraxler (talk) 23:45, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've personally used every single one of the sources I mentioned in articles about writers of LGBT-themed books many times before, so it's not at all true to say that they "wouldn't touch gay literature with a ten-foot pole". And even if they don't necessarily cover all such writers in great depth, I only named them as a few examples of the types of publications that would count, and did not suggest that they're the only three publications that could ever count at all — LGBT-specific newspapers like Xtra! or Bay Windows, magazines like The Advocate or Attitude, and dedicated LGBT literature sites like the Lambda Literary Foundation are also excellent alternatives as well.

The problem with GoodReads is that the writer's basic biographical profile on such a page often is presented by the author, publisher, agent or other self-interested parties, while the reviews are user-generated by any member of the site at all (of whom some still could be public relations flunkies using SEO-style tricks to inflate a book's rating.) It's not automatically suitable for use as a GNG-satisfying reference source just because it doesn't directly sell the books itself — we do still require book reviews to be in a publication that would otherwise still count as a reliable source, and GoodReads still fails several of our other RS criteria. Bearcat (talk) 02:01, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for giving a learned opinion on GoodReads. I admit that the web search didn't turn up much so far, I just got the overall impression that, although independently published, this author's books are widely read and discussed. I'll give it another try later, perhaps. Kraxler (talk) 15:19, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.
1. Harney, John (2013-07-14). "Hearts and Minds Shift Toward Marriage: Weddings/Celebrations | Hugh Young, Perry Brass". The New York Times. Archived from the original on 2015-09-05. Retrieved 2015-09-05.
  The article notes:
  
  Dr. Hugh Howard Young and Perry Manual Brass were married Friday at the Manhattan Marriage Bureau in New York. Alisa Fuentes, an employee of the city clerk’s office, officiated.
  ...
  Mr. Brass, also 65, is the author of “King of Angels,” a novel, and a playwright whose drama “Night Chills,” about the AIDS crisis, was presented Off Off Broadway in 1984. In 1969, he was among the founders of the Gay Liberation Front, a group that emerged after the disturbances at the Stonewall Inn in Greenwich Village. In 1973, he helped found the Gay Men’s Health Project clinic in Manhattan.
  Mr. Brass, who graduated from New York University, is a son of the late Louis Brass and the late Helen Landy Brass, who lived in Savannah, Ga.
  Mr. Brass was not at the Stonewall bar when the battles with the police broke out in June 1969. “If everybody who says they were there actually were there, it would have filled Yankee Stadium,” he said.
  Still, what happened at the Stonewall motivated him and others to form the Gay Liberation Front. As for the idea that he would someday be married, he said, “I used to joke that it made about as much sense as gay divorce.” In those volatile days, he said, “we wanted to explode the mores of the world.”
  Those mores had certainly been ruffled by the time he met Dr. Young in Central Park on the last day of November 1980. Mr. Brass was walking his dog, Willie, and Dr. Young was crossing the park on his way to church.
2. Ostman, Eleanor (1999-06-25). "Gay Chorus' 18th Season Remembers Slain Wyoming Man". St. Paul Pioneer Press. Archived from the original on 2015-09-05. Retrieved 2015-09-05.
  The article notes:
  
  New York poet Perry Brass was so distressed by the beating death of 21-year-old gay college student Matthew Shepard that, within hours of hearing the news from Wyoming last October, he wrote "Matthew's Lullaby."
  By e-mail, he shared his phrases about the universal need for safety and comfort with friends across the country, including Craig Carnahan, music director for the Twin Cities Gay Men's Chorus.
  Months later, Carnahan was commissioned by baritone Chad Furman to write a piece - "Matthew's Lullaby" - for the chorus' 18th-season concert. Brass' poem was suggested as the libretto, for which Carnahan created a gentle, melodic lullaby.
  The composer says, "Of the hundreds of responses I read to Matthew Shepard's murder, few were as eloquent as Perry Brass' moving poem with its images of home and warmth and sanctuary and peace - a profound response to a horrific event."
3. Labonte, Richard (2004-01-29). "Book Marks: 'The Substance of God: A Spiritual Thriller,' by Perry Brass. Belhue Press, 232 pages, $13 paper". Between the Lines. No. 1205. Archived from the original on 2015-09-05. Retrieved 2015-09-05.
4. Labonte, Richard (2010-01-28). "Book Marks: 'The Manly Art of Seduction: How to Meet, Talk to, and Become Intimate with Anyone,' by Perry Brass. Belhue Press, 220 pages, $16.95 paper". Between the Lines. No. 1804. Retrieved 2015-09-05.
5. "Book Reviews: The Manly Art of Seduction: How to Meet, Speak to, and Become Intimate with Anyone". ForeWord Reviews. 2010-01-21. Archived from the original on 2015-09-05. Retrieved 2015-09-05.
6. Bommer, Lawrence (1988-01-08). "'Ma Rainey' Sings Again In City Premiere". Chicago Tribune. Archived from the original on 2015-09-05. Retrieved 2015-09-05.
  The article notes:
  
  "All Men," Sunday, Lionheart Gay Theatre, Leo Lerner Uptown Center, 4520 N. Beacon St.; 769-5199: A hit at the 1987 Los Angeles Fringe Theatre Festival, Perry Brass' play combines narration, poetry, monologues and fiction to provide miniature portraits of gay men-from drag to butch, from rich to poor, and across several generations. What results is a portrait of a community in turbulent transition. H. Richardson Michaels directs and performs with the playwright. The second and final performance is Jan. 17.
7. "Who, where and when at the fair". Chicago Tribune. 2004-05-30. Archived from the original on 2015-09-05. Retrieved 2015-09-05.
  The article notes:
  
  Poet/novelist Brass lives in New York City and has published 13 books. They include "Sex-Charge" and "The Lover of My Soul," collections of poetry; "How To Survive Your Own Gay Life," "Mirage," "Albert of The Book of Man" and "Angel Lust." He is a six-time finalist for Lambda Literary Awards and won an Ippy Award from Independent Publisher Magazine in 2001 for "Warlock: A Novel of Possesion."
8. Steele, Mike (1999-06-25). "Chorus offers lullaby for slain student; Song from poem about Shepard part of Pride Week concerts". Archived from the original on 2015-09-05. Retrieved 2015-09-05 – via HighBeam Research. (subscription required)
  The article notes:
  
  Craig Carnahan was disturbed while attending a vigil for Matthew Shepard shortly after the 21-year-old gay college student was murdered in Wyoming last October.
  "The emotions that night were rage, anger and fear," he said. "I had friends who literally were afraid to come out of their houses for days afterward, they were so afraid."
  Carnahan, music director of the Twin Cities Gay Men's Chorus, was looking for a different response to the killing that sent the nation soul-searching. He found it in a poem written by Perry Brass, a New York City poet.
  "He'd written it the day after Matthew Shepard's death," said Carnahan. "But it wasn't a requiem; it wasn't angry, it was a lullaby. It never really mentions Matthew or his death, though you know what he's reacting to, yet it's universal, about people who fall because of being disenfranchised, yet who seek and finally find a safe haven. It was filled with images of warmth and humanity, of resting and being understood. It's about finding a safe place called home."
  ...
  It isn't the first time Carnahan has worked with poet Brass. "I first became aware of Perry when the chorus was recording `Heartbeats,' our contribution to the AIDS Quilt Songbook," said Carnahan. "Chris DeBlasio had set a beautiful poem by him, the most spectacular song on the record, I think. I met him and in 1996 the New York Gay Men's Chorus commissioned me to set his work `Waltzes for Men.'
  "He's a sensitive and musical poet - surprising, I suppose, since the other thing he does is write a gay science-fiction serial . . . all about gay aliens. Maybe that should be set to music next."
There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Perry Brass to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".
Cunard (talk) 23:59, 5 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.