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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Mutton

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. SpinningSpark 19:13, 31 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

John Mutton

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John Mutton (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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WP:BLP of a person notable primarily as a municipal politician in Coventry. The city is not large enough to confer automatic notability on its city councillors, and it's one of the many English cities where the Lord Mayor is a purely ceremonial role that rotates annually among city councillors rather than having any executive authority in its own right — and the sourcing here consists of one reference in which he's only briefly named in a news article which is fundamentally about his successor as Lord Mayor rather than about him. So he doesn't get an automatic presumption of notability for either role under WP:NPOL, and the sourcing isn't strong enough to put him over WP:GNG either. Delete. Bearcat (talk) 16:19, 20 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Bearcat (talk) 16:26, 20 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. Bearcat (talk) 16:26, 20 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - specifically to Bearcat (talk · contribs) who has created somewhat of a strawman by focusing on the "Lord Mayor" as councillor, and ignoring the fact that he was leader of the Labour Party group within the council. Because Coventry is an urban area, it has tended to favour Labour, so being far from being "Lord Mayor" on a rotational basis, he was "Leader of the Majority Party", and therefore the most important councillor politically, for a significant period and this does have something going for it that is conveniently ignored by the nomination. In terms of WP:POLITICIAN, the result is marginal, and may depend on sourcing to news articles; the result will be far closer than the open-and-shut case presented erroneously by Bearcat (talk · contribs). The presentation of such an argument doesn't really inspire confidence. Barney the barney barney (talk) 17:56, 20 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If a city isn't large enough to confer automatic notability on its city councillors, then being leader of the majority group on council doesn't make him any more inherently notable than any other city councillor — and if enough substantive coverage of him can actually be added to get him past GNG, then he'll get past GNG regardless of whether he was leader of a council bloc or just a regular councillor. So no, I didn't "ignore" or "strawman" the distinction — it simply doesn't make a difference either way. Bearcat (talk) 17:59, 20 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
By an extension of that logic, the leader of a country is equally as notable as any old MP. This clearly is an argument that is anything but intelligent or logical. Barney the barney barney (talk) 21:28, 20 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Unlike city councillors, all MPs are always notable enough for articles under WP:NPOL regardless of whether they were a Prime Minister or a backbencher — so that distinction doesn't actually impact anything either way either, and hence there's nothing unintelligent or illogical about it. Bearcat (talk) 22:31, 20 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
But what you might be failing to grasp is that notability is not a dichotomy between "notable" and "unnotable" but a cline with grey areas (this does unfortunately seem to be a common misunderstanding). A leader of a dominant political group for a significant period is more notable than a councillor who isn't a leader or there for a significant period. Such leaders have been known to receive significant honours (e.g. as CBEs and knighthoods (although not in this case)), and such are in one of these grey areas. It would be better to acknowledge this than presenting the false (and patently ridiculous) case that "all councillors are equally unnotable". Barney the barney barney (talk) 22:51, 20 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Notability" on Wikipedia is a function of the degree of reliable source coverage that can or cannot be provided about the person, not an inherent property of the person themselves. We've never accepted articles about city councillors, except in an extremely narrow range of metropolitan world cities — and we've never had a consensus to accept councillors in cities outside of that range just because the councillor held a special title (such as "deputy mayor" or "leader of a political party or faction") within the council. If the city isn't large enough to confer automatic notability on all of its city councillors, then the only way any city councillor (deputy mayor or not, leader of a dominant political grouping or not) qualifies is if you can add a volume and range of sourcing that gets him over WP:GNG completely on his own steam, per NPOL's provision for "Major local political figures who have received significant press coverage." If the necessary volume of sourcing were present, I would have let this go under GNG — but there's only one source here, and it isn't even about him. Bearcat (talk) 23:18, 20 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well please try to make your mind up and be consistent Bearcat (talk · contribs). In your nomination the expressed reason to delete is that he's extremely unimportant, down to the level of only being "a common and garden councillor" - when it's pointed out to you that this isn't actually true as he's more important than that, you try to pretend that this is irrelevant. A better person would have accepted their error and moved on. However, you have now tried to change your original argument about importance and instead frame your argument around "coverage". Well of course, coverage is partly a function of importance, and there are some sources available (WP:BEFORE requires that you look). Also, to address another point that you keep going on about, Coventry is a fairly large city (it's not quite top 10 in England but it's close), to pretend that that too is unimportant is either a continuation of the attitude of the original nomination in which inconvenient facts are conveniently ignored so that you present a strawman case. Barney the barney barney (talk) 10:31, 21 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, you're the one making up strawmen here. Almost everything you're saying here is a complete misinterpretation of the facts of either what I said, or of Wikipedia policy, or both. Let me summarize this one more time: Wikipedia's long-standing consensus, as documented at WP:NPOL and WP:POLOUTCOMES, is that city councillors are only granted an automatic presumption of notability in a narrow range of internationally famous world cities with populations in the millions (the textbook UK example is London.) A city with a 2011 census population of 316,900 does not fall inside that narrow range, so a city councillor in Coventry is only notable enough for a Wikipedia article if he specifically gets past WP:GNG as an individual — he is not entitled to keep a Wikipedia article that's based on only one source which isn't even principally about him, but merely mentions his name in passing as a predecessor of the person the article is actually about.
And it doesn't matter whether they're a "garden variety councillor", a "leader of a dominant political bloc within the council", a "deputy mayor" or a person who got to step into the "everybody gets a turn" rotation of a ceremonial and non-executive mayoralty — they still have to pass WP:GNG in their own right, or they don't get to be on here. Even Wikipedia's consensus about mayors doesn't boost him, because it applies only to directly elected "executive" mayors and not to appointed or rotated "ceremonial" mayors. My point has been the same all along: Coventry is not large enough to confer an automatic presumption of notability on its city councillors under Wikipedia's consensus about how big a city has to be to confer notability on its city councillors, so he has to pass WP:GNG in his own right to qualify for an article on here — but this article, as written, does not demonstrate that he passes GNG in his own right. Sure, Coventry is large enough that it could absolutely be kept if the sourcing were beefed up enough to get him past GNG — but it's not large enough that he's automatically entitled to keep an article on here just because he was a city councillor, even if that article only cites one actual source.
I've been consistent all along in this discussion — talking about whether the volume of coverage passes GNG or not is not a "change of tactic", because kindly note that I referred to the volume of coverage vis-à-vis GNG right in the initial nomination — and I'm not "strawmanning" anything or "ignoring" any facts that actually make a difference in this situation. You're the one making up stuff that isn't consistent with Wikipedia's established consensus on articles about city councillors, not me. Bearcat (talk) 16:49, 21 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
discussion veers off from content and sources to users' intent
No. If you go back to the (hint it's above), you'll find you misrepresented (deliberately or not) the facts, then when this what pointed out to you, you first tried to pretend the facts weren't relevant, then you switched your argument to talk about coverage rather than importance (which was the focus of your original argument). The only thing Bearcat (talk · contribs) has actually been consistent about is the illogic of some of your arguments and the inconsistency with which they were presented. It matters not whether the Leader of the Council is directly elected by a popular vote or indirectly elected by councillors who were themselves elected by popular vote because they're still the Leader of the Council. Barney the barney barney (talk) 17:59, 21 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
My argument right from the beginning has been consistently the same: Coventry is not large enough to confer an automatic presumption of notability on its city councillors under WP:NPOL — that "privilege" only exists for cities with populations in the millions — and so Mutton's ability to qualify for a Wikipedia article is entirely dependent on whether he personally passes WP:GNG as an individual in his own right. Which has not been demonstrated by this article as written — it cites only a single source which isn't even about him — and there's no claim being made here that entitles him to anything less than "enough sourcing to pass GNG". And that's exactly what I said in my original nomination. I have not "changed" my argument at any point, I have not "misrepresented" any of the facts, and I am not being "illogical" or "inconsistent" about anything. Bearcat (talk) 21:16, 21 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Since you apparently can't even read your own writing, Bearcat (talk · contribs), here's what you said: "it's one of the many English cities where the Lord Mayor is a purely ceremonial role that rotates annually among city councillors rather than having any executive authority in its own right". This is clearly and irrefutably framing by selective omission of facts (the largest being his being the long term leader of the majority party on the council) combined with innuendo and framing the argument in false terms. When this was politely pointed out to you, you have repeatedly failed to acknowledge your own mistakes.
Moreover, you continue to contribute to the innuendo by complaining about "lack of sources" when such sources can be found on the Internet if only you bothered to look. Barney the barney barney (talk) 21:51, 21 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
FFS, yet again I have addressed that point already: the long term leader of the majority party on the council is not automatically entitled to a higher presumption of notability under WP:NPOL than any other city councillor, but rather still has to pass GNG in his own right as an individual. I made no "mistake" of any sort; as I've pointed out the fact in and of itself simply is not relevant to the question of whether this article is keepable or not. If he gets past GNG as an individual, then he does so regardless of whether he was a party leader or just a "garden-variety" councillor — and if he doesn't get past GNG as an individual, then having been a party leader does not entitle him to less than a GNG-satisfying level of sourcing. The position does not entitle him to an automatic keep on the basis of a single source which mentions his name in passing while fundamentally being about somebody else — he still has to pass GNG as an individual to qualify.
And for the record, I am Canadian, and thus do not have the necessary expertise in Coventry's municipal politics to write or source any substantial improvements to the article. If somebody who does have the necessary expertise wants to save the article, they're absolutely more than welcome to do so by adding those improved sources you say exist — I do not have the necessary background knowledge about the city and its political structure and its notable issues and controversies to do it myself, so it is not my responsibility to delve into a referencing and content improvement project which I would almost certainly screw up rather badly. Bearcat (talk) 22:07, 21 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Bearcat (talk · contribs) - emboldeing you claim doesn't make your statement less false. Clearly and irrefutably, the leader of a council is more powerful (and therefore more important) than the typical councillor. This has been repeatedly explained to you. Barney the barney barney (talk) 22:25, 21 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Strawman bingo! I didn't say anything about the level of power and importance that a leader of a council has or doesn't have within the council in principle — I said that under WP:NPOL, Wikipedia does not extend a presumption of appropriateness as a topic for an encyclopedia article to city councillors of any description, party leader or not, if the resulting article is not reliably sourced enough to properly demonstrate that the councillor passes WP:GNG in his own right as an individual. Not the same thing at all. Bearcat (talk)
Erm, no you didn't Bearcat (talk · contribs) - the main thing you referred to that was being a mayor was unimportant but this was a red herring (probably deliberate). I think this is sufficiently obvious by now. Barney the barney barney (talk) 09:33, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Your accusations of bad faith are inappropriate and I'm taking you to WP:RFC if they don't stop immediately. Other than that, however, it's EOD, because you're still making up your own strawmen to argue against and not engaging honestly with what I'm saying. Bearcat (talk) 07:14, 23 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Bearcat (talk · contribs) - I think you'll find that I have spent a lot of good faithing on you. I originally allowed you the opportunity to admit your mistake and correct yourself; however you denied that you had done anything wrong and added further untruths into the mix, including falsehoods personally directed at me. This has led me to the conclusion that you deliberately and purposefully misrepresented the original case, above. I stand by everything I say, always and without exception. An RFC on Bearcat (talk · contribs)'s behaviour might be appropriate as I'd like to see what other articles he's lynched with lies. Barney the barney barney (talk) 10:53, 23 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have not made a "mistake", I have not "lied" or "misrepresented" anything, and I do not have a pattern of "lynching" articles with "lies" — I might find my opinion to be in the minority on occasion, just as everybody else does, but I have never listed an article for deletion for any reason other than an entirely good faith assessment of whether the article, as written, was properly compliant with our inclusion and content policies or not. I'm not engaging this discussion any further in this venue; take it to Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#John_Mutton_AFD. Bearcat (talk) 20:56, 23 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:33, 20 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Now we're getting somewhere! I'd be more than happy to withdraw this if the actual substance of the article were expanded to go along with the sourcing — so far, we still just have the same two sentences as before, with all of the new references just racked up on top of them instead of supporting any actual expansion of the content. Bearcat (talk) 01:54, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Do we have any sources about him? Not having a HighBeam account myself, I read what I could of the sources linked in the article and they really only mention him trivially. Woodroar (talk) 06:24, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I tried to pick out sources that illustrated his political role, but not being from that part of the world, I don't really know what is politically important. There are a number of articles in the Coventry Telegraph that go into some political depth, but the large number of articles is a bit daunting. I am willing to spend some time sorting through articles if somebody is interested in expanding the article. I am One of Many (talk) 06:48, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. The article currently tells us that "John Roderick Mutton (born 20 September 1947) was the Labour group leader on Coventry City Council until May 2013, and a former Lord Mayor of Coventry, England." If I didn't know better, I'd have to assume that the article was telling us that he was Labour leader from birth. Clearly he wasn't - which makes me wonder whether the obvious omission of the date he became leader is due to the fact that we don't have a source for it. Which in turn might well suggest that the position isn't really that notable... AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:57, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
A leader of the Labour group on a council the size of Coventry is certainly notable, as has been demonstrated by the discussion, and sources via Highbeam, while I was asleep here in the UK. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 09:46, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Keep. The subject's page on the Coventry Council website states that he has been a councillor since 1984, Leader of the Council from 2003 to 2004 and 2010 to 2013, leader of the opposition from 2004 to 2010 and Lord Mayor in 1997/8 - while the source is obviously primary, I would regard it as reliable (for verifiability) for these council career details. While none of this meets any of the automatic criteria of WP:NPOL, the criteria are supposed to reflect whether topics meeting them could be expected to meet {{WP:GNG]] after a more in-depth search for sources than an AfD period typically allows. Bearing this in mind, I find the idea that a councillor recently elected in Birmingham (population 1.1 million, 120 councillors) is automatically notable but one of 30 years' standing in Coventry (population 330,000, 54 councillors) with exactly the same formal powers must be presumed non-notable unless fully proved to meet WP:GNG somewhat odd but acceptable in that lines have to be drawn somewhere. But assuming that being leader of an English council (with powers equivalent to those of an executive mayor, if somewhat less security of tenure) of a city the size of Coventry is not at least indicative of notability strikes me as perverse. And User:I am One of Many has gone at least a long way towards demonstrating that WP:GNG is indeed met, as I would expect. In practice, the non-local sources that I have been able to check without a Highbeam account (such as [1], [2] and [3]) are reliable but not particularly in-depth, which is why I am !voting only a weak keep - but I am seeing enough to expect that an exhaustive search would undeniably show WP:GNG to be met. PWilkinson (talk) 11:15, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: Insufficient substantial coverage in reliable independent secondary sources. Lots of trivial, passing and routine mentions, but precious little of any real depth or substance. Far too little to meet our notability guidelines. Basically a low-key local politician who hasn't generated much interest beyond his local jurisdiction. My own searches turned up nothing promising. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dominus Vobisdu (talk • contribs) 14:57, 24 August 2014‎

  • Delete. Plenty of mentions in passing, but insufficient in-depth coverage to pass WP:GNG. Claims that being local party leader confers automatic notability don't seem to be borne out by WP:POLITICIAN. Instead it states that "Major local political figures who have received significant press coverage" will be notable - if for example (per the note) they have "been written about, in depth, independently in multiple news feature articles, by journalists". The in-depth coverage isn't there, and padding the article with multiple references to passing mentions, and with trivia, can't get around this lack of depth. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:07, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • delete none of the positions from Lord Mayor to local party leader are inherently Notable as per WP:POL. Nothing other than ROUTINE local news coverage; and even there , no significant coverage about him, as would be needed for GNG. If he flies enough smiley flags on the anniversary of Thatcher's death that he gets coverage in national papers other than the unusable tabloids like the Mirror, then maybe. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:13, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Irrespective of being a politician, it is hard to see how he doesn't simply satisfy WP:BASIC.
Non-local Coverage
  • "In audio: John Mutton interview". BBC News. 10 May 2010. Retrieved 24 August 2014.
  • Lissaman, Clare (1 August 2012). "2012 Olympics: What will Coventry's legacy be?". BBC News. Retrieved 25 August 2014.
  • "Coventry 'cannot keep' Olympic rings". BBC News. 17 August 2012. Retrieved 25 August 2014.
  • "Police commissioner role is 'barmy', says city council leader". BBC News. 29 October 2012. Retrieved 25 August 2014.
  • "Coventry City stadium railway station plans 'to be approved'". BBC News. 26 July 2012. Retrieved 25 August 2014.
  • "Ann Lucas named Coventry City Council leader". BBC News. 4 May 2013. Retrieved 17 May 2013.
  • Lyall, Sarah (10 August 2010). "Britain Reels as Spending Cuts Begin". The New York Times. Retrieved 24 August 2014.
  • Ficker, Martin (13 April 2013). "Margaret Thatcher funeral: Council leader 'regrets' joke that he'd fly flag with smiley face to mark occasion". Daily Mirror. Retrieved 24 August 2014.
Local Coverage
I am One of Many (talk) 01:03, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I am not seeing anything about him* - he is speaking or being quoted about things the city or party did, but not anything he was particularly personally responsible for. There are no third parties providing analysis that "The Mutton Plan is responsible for XYZ". Unless i am missing something, that just further cements that he is just run o the mill local pol. (*other than the fact that he had a "health scare" - but that doesnt make one notable)-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:23, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It is this clause of WP:BASIC: If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability; trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources may not be sufficient to establish notability that I believe applies here. If one pieced together all such articles (including articles critical of his various positions and views) say since he was mayor in 1997, then a substantial article could assembled—not a task I would want to do, but doable nonetheless. Regarding third party analysis of XYZ, for example, in the second article in the list above, professor Simon Chadwick is interviewed and talks about the likelihood of Mutton's economic success with the 2012 Olympics in Coventry, which is somewhat negative. I agree with you that the vast, vast majority of local politicians are not notable, but this is one of the few that looks to be notable. I am One of Many (talk) 02:16, 25 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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