Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Harry Oppenheim

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to List of Austria international footballers (1–24 caps). RL0919 (talk) 20:50, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Harry Oppenheim

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This stub about a guy who played one football game in 1909 is wholly sourced to two database entries. A BEFORE shows it fails WP:GNG, with searches for Harry Oppenheim on Google and Google books mostly turning up other people with the same name, and searching with the alleged date of birth only turns up Wikipedia mirrors. The database sourcing on their own fail WP:SPORTCRIT. NFOOTY no longer exists. Indy beetle (talk) 19:57, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to List of Austria international footballers (1–24 caps) per WP:ATD, WP:PRESERVE, WP:R#KEEP, WP:CHEAP. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 20:02, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople, Football, and Austria. Shellwood (talk) 21:55, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete since NFOOTY no longer exists, it does not meet GNG and should be deleted.Samanthany (talk) 01:21, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to List of Austria international footballers (1–24 caps) as a valid WP:ATD. If offline sources are found in the future to demonstrate he passes WP:GNG, then and only then could the article be restored. Joseph2302 (talk) 08:31, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - The issue here is whether it is appropriate or not to redirect Harry Oppenheim to the list of Austrian national football players. Harry in German is typically a shortening of "Harold" (it can be in English as well of course), and a search on Wikipedia shows that there are a number of other equally non-notable Harold Oppenheims mentioned on here (e.g., a candidate in the 1963 Edinburgh Corporation election). It is also used for "Henry", and there are a number of other Henrys mentioned on Wiki (e.g., a German banker). Searching more widely I see that other Harry Oppenheim's existed, including a Jewish newspaper owner, a collector of Chinese art, a South African magnate who supported Nelson Mandela, and a shoe-maker.
As such it is not clear to me why this should be a redirect at all and why it is at all plausible that anyone would searching this looking for the Austrian Football player who played a single game for the national squad in 1909. Even if you think it was, apparently Harry Oppenheim also played for First Vienna FC. so why does it make any more sense to redirect to the list of national players and not to the list of First Vienna FC players?

In short redirection is only a valid ATD if the people searching for Harry Oppenheim are only going to be looking for the person who played one match for the Austrian national squad, and if the list of national squad players is what they are going to be looking for. Otherwise we are preventing them from finding the other Harry Oppenheims covered by Wiki, or the other roles that this Harry Oppenheim played. As we can see there are actually a lot of other subjects they may be looking for, and even if they are looking for this Harry Oppenheim, they may well not be looking for the list of national squad players.

@Indy beetle/Samanthany - I see that WP:NFOOTY is now obsolete but I'm having trouble finding the discussion where this was decided, can you help me with a link? FOARP (talk) 08:40, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@FOARP: I believe it was an outgrowth of this discussion: Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Sports notability. Follow-up discussions to that RfC took place on the NSPORTS talk page which I did not follow as closely. -Indy beetle (talk) 09:16, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I think this is the one? Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(sports)/Archive_49#Association_football_(soccer) - basically it was a pure participation-based standard and the general RFC decided against that, and no replacement was agreed on. Anyway, even with WP:CHEAP I think keeping this as a redirect stops people from discovering the other potential search targets and it really isn't likely that anyone is really searching for this particular guy looking for lists of Austrian national football players who played a single game in 1909, so delete it is. FOARP (talk) 11:04, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I also find it highly unlikely that readers will be searching for this specific fellow and be greatly informed by a redirect to list of one/two-match football players from the early 1900s. -Indy beetle (talk) 13:34, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 19:01, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete does not meet inclusion criteria, and nothing suggests this person would actually be the primary search target.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:20, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - According to this database someone with the same birthday called Heinrich Oppenheim also played for First Vienna FC at the same time the subject here was supposed to have been playing for them according to the Italian version of this article and various databases. Either Harry Oppenheim had a twin brother or this article is actually wrong or at least has the wrong name. Given the fact that "Harry" is not a common given name in German, but instead used as a nickname, I think we can say the name of this article is almost certainly a mistake, the result of creating large numbers of content-less articles based on a low-quality database, and especially as we already have an article about a different Heinrich Oppenheim it should be deleted and not redirected because in reality it had the wrong name to start with. FOARP (talk) 09:37, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Transfermarkt is not a reliable source. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 13:14, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It appears no more or less reliable than the source which you used to create the article with, which described Oppenheim using what is almost certainly a nickname. FOARP (talk) 15:35, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The sources' reliability are fine per the project's list of sources that can be used. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 16:48, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Kind of beside the point here, all those sources should probably be evaluated on their own merits. It looks like those are simply added on the whim of various users. Not to say that means they aren't reliable, but those links don't appear to be getting approval or review from more than one person. -Indy beetle (talk) 16:51, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Harry Oppenhiem was part of the wealthy Oppenhiem family who were also land owners, played for First Vienna FC and SK Rapid Wien, winning a couple of honours in Austria which in turn allowed him a match with the national team. He might be mentioned in First Vienna FC: Fußballfibel isbn: 978-3944068916 or SK Rapid Wien: Fußballfibel isbn: 978-3944068923 . There are newspapers at the time, there is room to improve the article and plenty of research can be done into this person. Possible that he can pass WP:GNG quite easily. It's all down to the research and who wants to do it. I am with Lugnuts on this, redirect is cheap and allows future people to do the correct research if they want. Govvy (talk) 16:01, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect only makes sense if this guy is the Heinrich Oppenheim that people are searching for. He isn't, because we already have an article about a Heinrich Oppenheim. Redirection is NOT for storing information - if anyone wants to get this article back (and why would they when it basically contains no information?) they can just request an undelete. FOARP (talk) 18:40, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You miss the point of the redirect, the redirect is going to a list and not a name. And besides, Oppenhiem's are all related to each other in one way or another. Oppenheim family, although Harry is not on the list there, that's a very incomplete list. I know a little bit about this family through my family history. Not much know. Govvy (talk) 20:45, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect per Lugnuts. Giant Snowman 13:15, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect - the suggested sources mentioned by Govvy make this almost essential as we'll lose the page history and so on otherwise. It'll also stop anyone recreating the article quickly, there's an obvious ATD and redirects work much better than any other method of finding people. Right now he seems to be the only notable Harry O we have. Blue Square Thing (talk) 14:24, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.