User talk:Voceditenore/Archive 8

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page.
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still more past topics...

ABOUT MY ARCHIVES
Past topics I · Past topics II · Past topics III · Past topics IV · Past topics V · Past Topics VI · Past Topics VII · Past Topics VIII · Past Topics IX · Past Topics X
Past Topics XI · Past Topics XII · Past Topics XIII · Past Topics XIV · Past Topics XV · Past Topics XVI · Past Topics XVII · Past Topics XVIII · Past Topics XIX
Past Topics XX · Past Topics XXI · Past Topics XXII · Past Topics XXIII · Past Topics XXIV · Past Topics XXV · Past Topics XXVI · Past Topics XXVII
Schoolwork · AfC · DYKs etc. · Resolved notices

Plural of Azione teatrale?

Hi. I think we need a category for 'Azione teatrale'. What is the plural? I can't remember if both words have to agree . . . anyway your Italian is much better than mine. --Kleinzach 03:12, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm. In Italian you need to pluralize both, i.e. azioni teatrali. Alternatively, you could call it something like "Azione teatrale compositions". I don't think the category should be created though, unless there is also an article explaining the term and its uses. And there are some anomalies. In the libretto of its original Vienna performance of Gluck's Orfeo ed Euridice, and in the published score of 1763, it's called an azione teatrale, when it for all practical purposes it's an opera. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 07:20, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Not sure why I'm getting the Hmm, let alone a triple . . . The term seems legit., according to Oxford, for a form of opera. It appears on a number of articles. Likewise 'festa teatrale'. Sometimes these terms are explained differently in different books, but that's all the more reason to do an article and give examples. Most Anglo opera goers are completely ignorant about genres and we've made some good progress covering this on WP in a way which is more difficult in a traditional enclyclopedia. (By the way I am on record as saying there should be an explanatory article for each of the genre categories.) --Kleinzach 13:51, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

The "hmmm" was just me thinking aloud about pluralizing foreign terms. Somehow using the straight Italian plural doesn't sound quite right and it's not really a loan word like "adagio" which can take an English plural ending. Perhaps it would better not to pluralize it. I notice the opera seria and opera buffa categories aren't pluralized. The term is legit enough, in the sense that it appears on the original scores and libretti (librettos?) etc. The only possible problem is that some those original sources don't seem to use the term very consistently themselves. And the definition used in Orfeo ed Euridice doesn't hold up either. Not all works originally labelled "azione teatrale" have dancing in them, e.g. Il sogno di Scipione nor are all of them on mythological subjects, e.g. L'isola disabitata. Here's what Grove says:

"Term coined by Metastasio to denote a species of Serenata that, unlike many works in this genre, contained a definite plot and envisaged some form of simple staging. The 12 works by Metastasio so described begin with Endimione (1721, Naples, set by Sarro) and end with La corona (1765, Vienna, set by Gluck); Mozart’s setting (1772) of his Il sogno di Scipione is one of the last examples of this short-lived subgenre. One of the most celebrated was L’isola disabitata (1752), first performed in Madrid with music by Bonno. Gluck’s Orfeo ed Euridice, to a libretto by Ranieri de’ Calzabigi (1762), was originally described as an azione teatrale."

Then there's there's overlap (or whatever one calls it) with "festa teatrale". In the article on Le cinesi the distinction is made between them by saying that unlike "feste teatrali", "azioni teatrali" weren't meant for specific court occasions, marriages, etc. But, Il sogno di Scipione was meant for the enthronement of an Archbishop and Ascanio in Alba, was written for the marriage of Archduke Ferdinand of Austria and Maria Beatrice d'Este. Yet both are described as "azione teatrali". For more on the headache, see the first page of this article [1] ;-) Best, Voceditenore (talk) 15:13, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Well I think this is all par for the course. I'll start the article and perhaps you'd like to add to it what you have put above. It's all interesting info. Incidentally the genre articles probably all need going over. --Kleinzach 15:38, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Marguerite Sylva

Hey, thanks! =) Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 23:33, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Wow, that is simply fantastic work. I've nominated it for DYK here, with a couple options, but, really, that's GA-quality work if you ask me =) Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 02:09, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Benjamin Britten - a suitable case for deletion?

Hi .. Can you clarify your grounds for removing an external link from the Benjamin Britten article? I've read the external links guidelines and am not sure what grounds you thought were relevent. I believe your edit has sensibly reduced the value of the article -- if a reader is interested in the composer, then they should welcome the chance to experience his operas for themselves.

Please let me know because I think the site linked is a valuable one, and one which could and should be usefully linked from many more places within Wikipedia.

Thanks for any light that you can spread, Scarabocchio (talk) 11:19, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, on second thought, I decided to restore it and the one for Lorenzo Regazzo. I'll bring this up on the Opera Project. By the way, if you're interested in opera and/or classical music, do check out WikiProject Opera, WikiProject Classical music and WikiProject Composers. New members are always welcome! Best, Voceditenore (talk) 13:15, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion of bringing up this up on the Opera Project. Adding information on current performances would be a really valuable addition to many pages. For me, opera is about live performance, and the function of the WP texts is to supply context and deepen understanding, and to act as a guide and navigation tool for discovering new works and composers, -- basically bringing people to, and giving them a richer experience of, live opera.

The Operabase link syntax is straightforward, eg for a composer:

http://operabase.com/oplist.cgi?lang=xx&by=Benjamin Britten&sort=T

and for an opera, eg:

http://operabase.com/oplist.cgi?lang=xx&is=Peter Grimes&sort=D

Scarabocchio (talk) 20:40, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

The Visitors (opera)

I'm patrolling new pages in an attempt to find articles that are suitable for WP:DYK. Yours is one of the few that is long enough, but it's lacking inline references. Could you take a look at WP:REF and WP:CITET and add them? I'd love to nominate a fact from the article you created, but the rules require inline citations. (If you have no clue how to do them, just put the authors after the relevant sentences and I'll do the technical stuff) Just let me know on my talk page. - Mgm|^(talk) 12:41, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi, I've added some more inline cites. Note that the pre-existing inline citation at the end of the Performance history section clearly states the source and page number for all data in that section. I personally think Wikipedia is completely over the top in this respect. I am an academic and professional writer of textbooks. We never use inline cites to the excess that they are used on Wikipedia, especially when the material is uncontroversial and appears in multiple sources. Ditto the major reference books on opera, e.g. The New Grove Dictionary of Opera or even general ones like the Encyclopedia Britannica, but never mind...;-) Best, Voceditenore (talk) 14:29, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

• I totally agree. I've even seen people tag something with a fact tag even though if they bothered to read the reference at the very end of the paragraph, they'd noticed it was referenced. I little less paranoia would do the place a lot of good -- espcially when it's easily checkable references. - Mgm|^(talk) 19:27, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Paul Danblon

Wonderful, thank you. Interestingly, I had ordered a DVD from House of Opera (I think it was Stravinsky's Oedipus Rex, and, as with many of their DVDs, it had other operas on it as well, which I hadn't paid for, but which are on it anyway. It was Cyrano de Bergerac, I think, by Paul Danblon. I hadn't heard of him, looked on WP and didn't find him, and the rest was history. I think the author of A Clockwork Orange was also a polymath/part-time opera composer.  :) 24.29.238.60 (talk) 00:16, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very much

For your help in getting categories and so on for the tasmanian music articles - appreciated SatuSuro 14:18, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your kind words. I enjoyed learning about some very interesting works. Voceditenore (talk) 17:00, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Pavarotti

Voceditenore, I refer to your recent re-edit on my entry that Pavarotti represents an all-time Great in the history of tenors. I am not quite sure what it is you object to? Perhaps, rather than repeating my position, I would draw your attention to the "talk page" of the Pavarotti article itself. I note your brevity: "correct tense and punctuation. The rest of the sentence is inappropriate and clumsy, but I'm not going to edit war about it" Perhaps I could hear some elaboration on your actual meaning here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.180.229.181 (talk) 05:59, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Hi, I've responded on the Pavarotti talk page. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 07:09, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Voceditenore, I entered the following post under Pavarotti some days ago.

As you stated you would probably not be returning I have taken the step of bringing the comment to you: 'If you can't take Mohammad to the mountain ...' and all, you know:

Voceditenore, again I thank you for your reparation of my unsuccessful attempt at maintaining indentation on here. I managed to get them working the first few paragraphs, but then they stopped responding to the same command. So I don't know how you succeeded ... but thanks.

I do want to apologize to you and say to you that I am of your mind on this, but I do not know of published references which could back up that statement to which you were alluding: re one of the best of the 20th Century; surely my wording was somewhat loose there. I know the entire sentence needs re-vamping, because all I did was to disturb the original as little as possible ... and you will probably see this if you compare the change with the former. Partly, I have simply left it as is to see if you wished to make some suggestions of your own as to the type of re-wording you envisioned; but I see you haven't touched it.

Anyway, if you have such a reference as you were speaking of, or some thoughts on the new format of the sentence, I would be interested to hear them. Thank you.

PS I too, have personally heard him sing. Well, you didn't think I'd miss his voice personally, for all the tea in China! Did you??  :) Kindly,(Denidowi (talk) 00:29, 8 June 2009 (UTC))

I've responded on the Pavarotti talk page today. Voceditenore (talk) 08:15, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very much, Voceditenore. Yes, that sentence sounds quite reasonable to me.

One thing I can say about his singing: he had a head voice virtually incomparable. I believe some of this extraordinary capacity in sound may have been due to the dome breadth and resonance capacity of his skull (which acts as a sound board for the voice). But even here, you have to use that potential physical advantage very skilfully. That he certainly did. I have never heard a tenor use the breadth of vocal texture and control as well as he - from soft, delicate - even heady - notes right through to powerful, rich, raw soaring sonority.

Voceditenore, it'll probably take me some days, but I'll try to go over your references. I'd like to get rid of the "Days of our Wives" effect in the article also. But I don't know how much luck I'll have - people love their gossip mags too much today ... despite that this is supposed to be encyclopaedic. ;)(Denidowi (talk) 13:52, 10 June 2009 (UTC))

Opera

I'll be honest: I'd like to help, but I don't feel able to deal with all the administrative bullshit on here right now. I'll try to come back for the Purcell push, particularly if someone e-mails me nearer the time of the final push. [[User:Shoemaker's Holiday|]] (talk) 12:45, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Miri Ben-Ari

Hello voced. This http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Hip-Hop_Violinist&redirect=no article was deleted and now redirects. I think it should stand as an article. Miri is so talented! What do you think? 173.79.58.33 (talk) 21:27, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Hello there. I'm afraid I don't know her work at all. The only edit I made to the article was to revert vandalism last December. Maybe one of the problems was that there were no references or reviews in reliable sources to establish its notability. There's more about that here. The article isn't really deleted. The redirect can be reversed. Perhaps you should get an opinion from WikiProject Albums. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 05:00, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Synopses

GT referred me to Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Opera#Macbeth_.28opera.29. I'm away at the moment, but I'd like to make it clear that I'm in favour of phasing out these Opera Japonica texts and replacing them with 'home-grown' ones. Putting them into the public domain never really worked. If necessary links can be provided to the Oj pages. --Kleinzach 02:09, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Copied to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera Voceditenore (talk) 23:14, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Margarethe Siems

Hello! Your submission of Margarethe Siems at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and there still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! hamiltonstone (talk) 01:56, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Responded here. Voceditenore (talk) 05:38, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I've ticked it off. Cheers. hamiltonstone (talk) 05:41, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

The_Canterville_Ghost_(opera)

Is this.... rather awful page - on a truly notable opera? If so, and should my Featured picture candidate for The Canterville Ghost passes, is it worth including it in the portal? Shoemaker's Holiday ^{Over 192 FCs served} 21:34, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

I've never heard of it. Unfortunately, the article has no references that would support its notability, e.g. reviews, analysis etc. Doesn't mean there aren't any out there though. It seems to have had a London premiere. Also without a proper synopsis, it's hard to tell if the the FP actually illustrates a scene that also occurs in the opera. Perhaps wait to put it in the Portal until the artcle can be improved a bit and we at least know if the scene occurs in the opera as well as the play? Best, Voceditenore (talk) 08:27, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Sure! I'm not really concerned - I'm sure the literature or books portals can always make use of it, if we don't. Just trying to dilute the G&S bias of the portal. Frankly, I've never heard of it either. (Also, I fixed the link above.) Shoemaker's Holiday ^{Over 192 FCs served} 09:24, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Transwiki links

Sure - I can do that. I can also add a couple of basic book references (Kobbe covers a couple of the Finnish ones I've stubbed, for instance) where possible. --Ser Amantio di Nicolao^{Che dicono a Signa?}_{Lo dicono a Signa.} 13:43, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Above comment was in reply to this Voceditenore (talk) 16:14, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! I noticed over at WikiProject Intertranswiki that you need people to expand/translate articles to at least start class. WikiProject Intertranswiki is more likely to find them if the talk pages for each of the new stubs is bannered for one or two appropriate subject projects. Best wishes and good luck with the project. Voceditenore (talk) 16:14, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks very much. Hopefully I can make a start at a few other notable things in a few days. --Ser Amantio di Nicolao^{Che dicono a Signa?}_{Lo dicono a Signa.} 16:18, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Arnold Azrikan

Thanks a lot. I am dealing with inline citations right now and still struggling to understand how to make it right in order to get rid of the red question box in the middle of this article! My desperate question is: do I need to provide inline citations for every single source listed in my "bibliography/sources" listing, or it is enough to give just a few of them (two-three)? I will continue experimenting with it, and if I fail (almost sure!) I will wait for your return, so many thanks for all! User:Rozochka (talk) 15:56, 7 July 2009 (UTC))

• Dear Voceditenore, while you are away I continue writing to you as our attempts to learn inline citations are at the high point! I have done some of them and was so happy to see the red question out but I think that I have to take the cited references out of "sources". However, it is only my guess and I will wait for your return, and will follow all your instructions/advices/editing - so many thanks to you User:Rozochka (talk) 16:57, 8 July 2009 (UTC))

Hi, I'm not leaving til tomorrow morning. ;-) Don't worry about the duplication for now, and don't take the sources out. When I get back, we can tackle making shortened footnotes. If you want to see what I'm talking about, look at how I did the referencing for Teresa Saporiti or Hjördis Schymberg. Also, if you want to use your real name, you still need to sign with your user name too so that people know how to contact you and there's a record of which user said what. That's why the robot added it. To do that just type ~~~~ (four tildes) at the end of your message. You user name etc. will automatically appear when you click save. More about that here. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 17:46, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Hello, so great to hear from you, thanks. I won't take anything out and will wait for your return. I looked at both singers edited by you and recognized the format I read so much about (I printed tons of instructions how to do it, and this "shortened" was among them). Looks great, I would love to have it. Have a safe trip and we will continue upon your return. 14:39, 9 July 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rozochka (talk • contribs) 14:42, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I am learning - thanks--14:50, 9 July 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rozochka (talk • contribs)

Something did not work for me with "tildes", sorry. I will learn it 14:44, 9 July 2009 (UTC)) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rozochka (talk • contribs)

• I have just realized what a horrible mistake I did with using my real name. I was so much involved in my article that did not pay enough attention to such an important issue. All my talk pages went public... Now I am dealing with tons of requests to several wiki bureacrats to help me to change my username AND signature. I have tried to follow instructions and requested my signature change in English wiki (I also contributed in Russian and Ukrainian) but I don't know if it works. Thanks! Rozochka

• Hello, I think I need your help! I have just found this very strange page with the reference to Wikipedia article about Arnold Azrikan - please, see http://sthweb.bu.edu/index.php?option=com_awiki&view=mediawiki&article=Arnold_Azrikan&Itemid=170 My question is: what is the connection to Georgia Harkness/Wikipedia to an opera singer Azrikan?! Is this someone's mistake? (for sure, not Wiki editors!). I am looking forward to hear from you, many thanks! I have not been here for awhile but I plan to work more on Wiki starting in November - more free time. For now I am really shocked by this link...--Rozochka 20:00, 27 August 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rozochka (talk • contribs) --

Hi Rozochka, the site you found, mirrors Wikipedia. It stores copies of all the articles here, all presented in the same Boston University frame, all saying that they incorporate material from Georgia Harkness, even when they don't. It's nothing to worry about. As you can see from the list on Wikipedia:Mirrors and forks, there are zillions of such sites. Also, Please remember to sign your comments. If you can't type 4 tildes (~), then use the bar at the top of the editing frame, explained here. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 05:07, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for your response, I understand now. As for my signs - I am sorry if it did not work out though I always tried to sign! Also, I am working now on some new facts from Azrikan's bio and will try to add them in a nearest future with the reference. Thanks for all your help, my bests - Rozochka 17:01, 7 September 2009 (UTC).--Rozochka 17:02, 7 September 2009 (UTC).

You are right - something is wrong with my signature. As you can see I tried both ways - by 4 tildes and by the bar... what am I doing wrong?! Thanks!Rozochka 17:05, 7 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rozochka (talk • contribs)

Bartered Bride uploads

Thanks for the two uploads – they are both delightful, especially the harvest festival scene. I would like to wait for the article to clear FAC before deciding where to put one or the other, or both. I am also considering whether to use the festival one on Bedrich Smetana also. Brianboulton (talk) 17:51, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

You're very welcome! Scanning the programme brought back happy memories. I know it received a fair amount of criticism, but I thought the Zambello production was delightful – a lovely evening at the opera. Incidentally, the ROH synopsis explicitly mentioned that the opera opens during the harvest festival, although others don't seem to. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 22:59, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I see you are a member of Opera Project. Without discussion a member of the project (Viva-Verdi) has unilaterally changed the section order of the Bartered Bride article because it does not conform exactly to Opera Project format guidelines. When I reverted to the order that applied when the article was nominated, he reimposed his edit with a highly aggressive, intemperate edit summary. He has now stated his case in a rather unpleasant manner on the talkpage; I have asked him to withdraw his edit as a preliminary to a proper discussion of the issue. At present he hasn't responded. In my last opera article, Agrippina, the question of article structure was raised in its peer review by Kleinzach, who agreed that each opera was different and "we don't need to be inflexible about it," which seems reasonable. I feel rather perplexed at present; if you have a moment, I would be grateful if you would visit the talkpage and perhaps leave a comment, if you feel this would be appropriate. Brianboulton (talk) 01:01, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for alerting me to this. I had the FAC on watch, but not the article itself. I am appalled at the editor's actions and particularly appalled that they were falsely justified by reference to our guidelines. I've said so, in a somewhat more temperate way ;-), on the BB talk page. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 06:18, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. Sandy has promoted the article, so that's not an issue (though the blatant attempt to derail the nom, not to mention the "shouting", are somewhat disturbing). Other comments on the article's talkpage, and my own page, have reinforced my view that the chosen section order should be maintained. If Viva-Verdi can make reasoned arguments in favour of his viewpoint, I am still happy to listen. Brianboulton (talk) 08:52, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Congratulations on the well-earned FA, Brian! I'm adding it to Portal:Opera later today. If it's any consolation, I don't think the editor in question was deliberately trying to derail the FAC. In fact I suspect they weren't even aware of the FAC. More of a case of shooting from the hip. Nevertheless the confrontational tone and edit-warring were inexcusable in my view. And not a very fab recruiting advert for the OP either. Sigh... Best, Voceditenore (talk) 14:48, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

A question of titles

Hi Voceditenore. I have a question for you. I am considering creating an article on baritone Jean Lassalle and I am not sure how to title the article. Currently there is an article on the politician Jean Lassalle but no article on the singer. Normally this would be a no brainer DAB to Jean Lassalle (baritone). However, Oxford gives his name as Jean-Louis Lassalle and Grove just Jean Lassalle. I'm really not sure what title to go with. Any thoughts?Singingdaisies (talk) 13:50, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether Voce has gone away yet, so I'll answer (I'm here because she asked WPO members to keep an eye on this page for reasons that you know about). Grove Opera has Jean Lassalle, with no mention of any -Louis, and Grove Opera is usually punctilious about showing alternative forms of name. BTW, my Oxford Dictionary of Opera (7th impr, 1997) also has Jean Lassalle. If you click the redlink with the (baritone) addition above and then click "What links here", bottom left, you'll see that the Wagner Project and another seven articles already use that formulation so it makes sense to use it for your article. You could start the article with "Jean Lasselle (or Jean-Louis Lasselle) was ..." or use the Cammarano formulation. Then there should be a redirect from Jean-Louis Lasselle, and also a hatnote needs adding to the politician's article. Hope that makes sense - ask if you need any help. Best. --GuillaumeTell 21:17, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Re: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Luminita Soare

Luminita Soare, VERURTEILEN: Ja, ja, Herr Inkisitor der moderne Inkisition und Henker der anonymen Künstler. Bevor das Kopf der Luminita Soare gerollt in den Korb wird, unten der Zuschauermasse der Internet …Nun da haben Sie ein Beispiel der Stimmplagiat…natürlich dass die Proeminenten die plagieren haben Interessen den Originalen kaputt zu machen Ewa Podles Stride la vampa Trovatore Verdi Azucena [...] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nokilia (talk • contribs) 04:41, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Remainder of above rant here - Voceditenore (talk) 06:05, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Frank Frost

Just wanted to thank you for your work in helping locate the actual source of the article, which will make it easier to clean up just the actual infringement and not the stuff that was mirrored later. This looks like it's going to be a big job. I hate the collateral damage that good articles are going to suffer during the process. :/ --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 14:12, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Is there a Hercule Poirot barnstar? You deserve it x100. ;-) Actually, now that you've found the NYT obit, I see there was even more copyvio stuff until a later editor removed it (ironically) as POV. And quite naughty of the creator not to at least list the NYT article as a source. Hard to make an argument that it was inadvertant copyvio. I had a look at the long list of articles he/she created. Geesh! What a mess. Voceditenore (talk) 14:31, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

If I could utilize the accent, I'd be happy to be Poirot. :) If our new version of the ContributionSurveyor program is correct, clean-up on this is not going to be as challenging as it first seemed, since the vast majority of this editor's contributions seem to have been reverting. Keep your fingers crossed! --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 14:35, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Amber Witch

Just wanted to tell you that I really like your work on The Amber Witch. It was my first wiki hence the problems you noted. I didn't think copy and paste from out of copyright sources are a problem since it was from an encyclopedia listed in the References. Wolf2191 (talk) 19:39, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! Since you're more experienced now, I probably don't need to say this, but just in case...;-) Even if the text is from a public domain source, it should still be attributed. Also, the text pasted from bellaonline was not public domain, and that's a real no-no. The last thing you want is to find yourself here. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 16:17, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Re Cranbrook Schools

Thanks so much for weighing in. I had been preparing a Request for Editor Assistance as a way to break the gridlock, but your edits and comments beat me to it. I'll begin cleaning up the page per your suggestions. (How'd it come to your attention?) JohnInDC (talk) 14:22, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

You're welcome. It came to my attention purely by accident. I had another editor's talk page on my watchlist, saw this, and became curious. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 16:05, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Ah, I love Wikipedia's randomness. Say, could keep an eye on it for a few days? The IP editor is very determined it seems, and has stopped paying my comments or edits any mind. Thanks! JohnInDC (talk) 20:01, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

It is a pain when you get a determined editor who is equally determined not to read, let alone take on board the contents of WP:VERIFY, WP:OR and WP:PEA. I'm afraid I'm about to go to Italy for a month, where I have a very poor and slow internet connection, so will be virtually inactive on Wikipedia until late August. It might be worth contacting Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Schools if any further problems arise. Good luck. Voceditenore (talk) 11:04, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Enjoy! JohnInDC (talk) 13:25, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks

Hello, thanks for blocking the person who has been pretending to be me when she makes nasty edits to Liz Caballero's page. I hope she won't be able to use that name again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nadine Weissmann (talk • contribs) 15:20, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi. It wasn't me who blocked the person. It was a Wikipedia administrator, although I did give them the final warning. I was pleased to see the block come so quickly. I was getting mighty tired of reverting their nonsense. As Nweissmann has been indefinitely blocked, they can't edit under that name anymore or create a new account from that address. But if you ever have worries that they are impersonating you again, don't hestiate to ask an adminstrator for advice. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 15:52, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Burak Bilgili

I've moved your temporary version to Burak Bilgili. Thanks for dealing with that. Rd232 ^talk 19:09, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi. I've also repaired Emma Nevada at Talk:Emma Nevada/Temp but it needs an administrator to move it. I re-wrote it from scratch as the whole thing was copy/paste and very close paraphrasing from a single source. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 13:25, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Voceditenore

STOP STOP STOP BASTA BASTA I correct it information,if you continue to add it wrong information,I will complain and remove that article.You are not helping for singers!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.164.56.77 (talk • contribs) 10:55, 10 September 2009

this template was removed from above message. Voceditenore (talk) 04:57, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

First of all, Wikipedia arrticles are for the benefit of their readers, not for the benefit of their subjects as I explained on Talk:Burak Bilgili. Even so, I'm afraid you are not helping the singers (Eglise Gutiérrez and Burak Bilgili) whose articles you are editing both as Special:Contributions/67.164.56.77 and as Special:Contributions/Bbilgili - You are removing and damaging references, replacing formatted grammatical text with improperly formatted ungrammatical text, adding unsourced material to the biography of a living person, and edit warring over addition of a tag. I have left numerous explanations for you and links to pages which explain Wikipedia's policies and how to edit constructively at both User talk:67.164.56.77 and User talk:Bbilgili. I strongly urge you to read them carefully. You are seriously running the risk of being blocked, and in the process your behaviour is reflecting poorly on both the singers involved. Voceditenore (talk) 11:45, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

[[2]] You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Burak Bilgili. Your Articles on watch buy Wikipedia Admins,which his name is Ryan Foster. If you continue adding that word,they will ignore or block you.You have to stop writing about short notice,There is no licensing information at all. PS:Voceditenore,I would love to have your real name and information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bbilgili (talk • contribs) 08:20, 11 September 2009

Template:di-no license has been removed from the above message. Its use is entirely inappropriate. It is to be placed only on file pages only and refers to the copyright status of an image or sound file. Voceditenore (talk) 08:53, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I am not engaged in an edit war. I twice reverted your deletion of references and the completely inappropriate addition of Template:di-no license to the middle of Burak Bilgili [3], as has another editor. I am perfectly happy for any administrator to watch my edits. I have made my position on your edits to Burak Bilgili clear on Talk:Burak Bilgili. Please continue the discussion there with the other editors involved in the article and please refrain from vandalizing my talk page. Voceditenore (talk) 09:30, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

re Carmen

Thanks! Got it. Oh it did feel good to clear that stuff out. Thanks, Mark Markhh (talk) 09:14, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

(In response to [4] Voceditenore (talk) 09:37, 7 October 2009 (UTC))

Copyright

For the initial "in general" statement, I would add something like: "For residents of the United States...." Despite treaties, adherence to copyright law is still variable depending on the country. From what I understand, laws other than copyright (intellectual laws, which we don't have in the US) can be responsible for putting PD works out of reach. -- kosboot (talk) 17:52, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for having a look at at it. I've added the US bit, in relation to English WP's servers. I think on the whole, this is sufficient for our purposes. The guidelines only relate to text copyright violations and only to English Wikipedia. There's also an FAQ lower down the page which directs readers to the Guidelines on public domain and how the issue can be complicated. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 18:06, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Feedback would be appreciated

Since you recently went through finding a multiple point infringer and trying to muster assistance with it, you may be in excellent position to give feedback on the new proposed process page at Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations. I plan to place it at village pump soon (like maybe tomorrow), but would like a fresh set of eyes that might help find glaring issues before doing so. Thanks for any input you may be able to offer. :) --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 13:27, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Hi! I've been silently following its progress.;) Good job! It really is necessary too. Just a couple of queries in When should a CCI be started?:

1. the meaning of "wholesale copy / pasting". People are bound to ask: How much is wholesale? Two or more sentences? Three or more? It might be a good idea to specify: X or more continuous sentences.
2. by specifically stating "copy / pasting", I assume you're excluding closely paraphrased passages, or not?

Meanwhile, the OP is plugging along with tackling its serial plagiarising family of sockpuppets. UGH!

Best, Voceditenore (talk) 14:07, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I'll copy this to the CCI talk page and continue to add comments there. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 14:21, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

rec.music.opera

"den of deviant discourse"? For a while, it wasn't that bad there, once one's newsreader was configured with the appropriate kill filters, but late in 2007 it became too weird and I unsubscribed. However, on a visit to London earlier that year I met two lovely participants, Faye Courtney ("Mrs Terfel"), and the other name escapes me, possibly Geraldine Curtis ("La Donna Mobile"); I also would have liked to meet Alan Watkins in Prague, but he didn't answer his e-mail. So, there was a time when the discourse at RMO was civilised and one could indeed learn something "Von fremden Ländern und Menschen". -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:34, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

By 'deviant discourse', I didn't mean deviants discoursing. I meant it in the linguistic sense of talk that violates the behavioural norms of discourse. Having said that, the first meaning could definitely apply to some of the denizens (who will remain nameless). I used to read it online, hence couldn't filter. Quite a show at first, but then it got boring. You're right, though, there was gold amidst the dross. Mind you, Wikipedia can be quite a den of deviant discourse as well.;-) Best, Voceditenore (talk) 14:50, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Leonid Mikhailovich Kharitonov

Hi Voceditenore. Thank you very much for your advice on the discussion page of Leonid Mikhailovich Kharitonov commentaries. It is much appreciated. Our main article Leonid Mikhailovich Kharitonov is exposed today, as it's as of this moment in the queue (prep 1) for the front page DYK box, and should get a hook on the front page sometime today. So we are on our best behaviour, and I immediately followed your advice, so as to keep our information as safe as possible, for as long as possible. There are three of us working hard on this article: one in Russia (with all the valuable and rare information, and sources); one in the U.S. (translator) but new to Wiki; and me - more familiar with Wiki than the others, so I get to write down the information I am given (so far). Any further advice that you can give us would be much appreciated. If you were to look at the subject's official website, you would understand that due to his age and health, we want to do our very best with this page, and do it as quickly as possible - without breaking any Wiki rules of course. If you were to listen to his very first performance, you might understand why we think our effort is worthwhile from the public's point of view. Thank you very much for your kind help so far --Storye book (talk) 12:06, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Hi,Storye book! The article is very worthwhile, and you've all done some great work on it. His voice is really magnificent too! I think you were wise not to jeopardize your work with a fair-use tussle. I've been on the receiving end of it myself. It sort of depends which administrator you get. Some take a broader view of fair use, but (probably) most are pretty intransigent. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 12:34, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Hi Voceditenore. Thank you for your kind comment. It means a lot. I shall copy it to Russia, and I promise you it will almost certainly then be in due course translated to the great singer himself. There were so many great singers during the Soviet years who did not get the worldwide recognition they deserved, due to the Cold War. Now I am so grateful to Wikipedia for the opportunity to put the record straight, as far we can.--Storye book (talk) 12:57, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

So sorry :(

I am so sorry that you have not had more help with your multiple article infringer. Currently, I seem to be the only person in my project who actually works multiple article infringers. Which isn't to complain about the other people in the project...many of them have their hands full with other copyright matters, especially at the perpetually backlogged WP:SCV. We simply do not have enough people helping out with this, and I'm at a complete loss where to find more. I myself have not had time to write an article in what feels like months (and may actually be...I haven't looked. Well, except the articles I've written to replace copyvios...and those are few and far between nowadays :)). Anyway, coming up on my "to do" list for today is to try to generate some feedback on this. We've got to do something. I believe there may literally be thousands of articles in that queue waiting for review. And more coming all the time. Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that I didn't skip merrily away. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 18:06, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Gosh, Moonriddengirl! Don't be sorry! You've already been a huge help to us. We're plugging along at what I now call the Opera CopyVio Sweatshop. Progress report here. We just have to accept it's going to be a long haul and do what we can. Fortunately, the Opera Project articles aren't "high traffic". And we're all on record as being aware of and addressing the problem as best we can. Also, the DYK people have been alerted to refer any nominations from new users to us for vetting. I just cleaned up one today that had "won" a DYK with stuff like this in it:

...as brother and sister shout their desperate challenge to humanity against the insistent march of a gathering army and the cries of a vast mob coming from all around the theater. And then silence. The echoes of the music die away, but the voices of Hans and Sophie Scholl resonate in the silence..

Best, Voceditenore (talk) 18:37, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. You are kind. :) It's a pity, though, that we don't have more systems in place for dealing with this kind of thing. I'm always disappointed when I see text cleared for DYK that is plainly copied, especially when it acknowledges its source! This happens more often then you'd think. Hopefully, DYK reviewers these days are more conscious of that. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 18:44, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm wondering if the various Wikiprojects could be involved more. Not all of them subscribe to article alerts and may be oblivious to what's going on. It might make them a bit more pro-active. Perhaps the Copyright Clean-up project could get in touch with them and let them know about the general problem and/or if a bunch of their articles are dodgy and/or about to be stubbed? But maybe you've tried that... Anyhow, next week, we're also going to write some very specific guidance on and warnings about the evils of copyvio for the Opera Project. It might help if all projects did that. Consciousness raising, if nothing else. Hmmmm, sounds like an opera... Il plagiario punito, melodramma tragica in quattro atti. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 19:07, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Sometimes I do, and sometimes I don't. I should probably do that more consistently if for no other reason than to remind other contributors of the same projects not to copy material. :) Copyvio guidelines for your project! Wonderful! --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 19:11, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

L'incoronazione - Grimaldi/Grimani

Mark Ringer states that the Teatro Santi Giovanni e Paulo was owned by the Grimaldi family. The Grimani family owned the Teatro San Giovanni e Gristomo in Venice (where Agripina was premiered in 1709). Is Ringer wrong? Brianboulton (talk) 19:55, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Hi Brian. I'm positive the Ringer thing is a mistake that made it through (or was possibly even introduced during) copy-editing. First of all, the Grimaldi family are Genoese. There was no prominent Venetian family named Grimaldi. Secondly, the Grimani family owned at least three theatres, SS. Giovanni e Paolo, S. Giovanni Gristomo, and the San Benedetto. Most importantly, both Rosand, who's an authority on the 17th c Venetian opera scene as well as the two other authors I cite, Todarello and Forsyth, all list the Grimani family as the owners of the theater. In the sources section of Teatro Santi Giovanni e Paolo, click on the book links and you'll see what I mean. Also here's the Grove entry for "Grimani":

"Italian noble family of theatre proprietors. They were the most powerful and influential dynasty of Venetian theatre proprietors, owning at different times four separate theatres. The earliest was SS Giovanni e Paolo, named in Venetian fashion after the parish in which it was situated. It was built by Giovanni Grimani (1603–63) and Antonio Grimani (1605–59) especially for opera and opened its doors in Carnival 1639 with Manelli’s La Delia...."

Hope this helps. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 05:59, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that looks conclusive. There are other sources besides Ringer that have apparently confused the two families, but the Grove/Rosand combination looks irresistible. Your new article is a great help. On the question you raise about the floor plan, my source clearly labels the diagram I have used as a drawing of the "Teatro del SS Giovanni e Paulo", from Sir John Soane's Museum, London. Unless I am missing something, this appears to be confirmed by pp. 8 and 78 of your Forsyth source. The boxes are presumably those defined areas above the horseshoe of tiered seats. (My source also has a drawing of the Teatro Farnese in Parma which I can scan if you want it). Brianboulton (talk) 09:19, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Re the floor plan, actually it's disconfirmed by page 78 of my source. Take a look at the two drawings on the complete page. Fontana's plan is below its description and the illustration of Aleotti's Teatro Farnese is above its description. See also [5] – I'm pretty sure what that drawing depicts is the 1728 "Carosello equestre" held in that theatre in 1728. See also the same engraving you've used here which is from the City of Parma Music Archives (scroll to Danza a cavallo nel Teatro Farnese..., click to enlarge). Also page 4 of this pdf (actually page 15 of the original). Plus, the Teatro SS Giovanni e Paolo never had raked amphitheatre seating which is clearly illustrated in the engraving you've used. I think your source has it wrong. Was it also Ringer? Voceditenore (talk) 10:20, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

No, it wasn't Ringer this time! My source was Batta & Neef's monumental opera survey, where the drawings of Teatro Santi Giovanni e Paolo and Teatro Farnese are both shown on page 332, clearly marked as such. Having looked properly at your material (I was initially fooled by the partial image on p. 78 of Forsyth) it is clear that Batta & Neef have simply transposed the captions for the two drawings. I have now replaced the image in the L'incoronazioe article, and will arrange for the former file to be deleted. I am sorry for the time taken to put this right but was misled by the source information (as with Ringer). I trust all is well, now, but please let me know if you see further problems on this or any other related issue. Brianboulton (talk) 22:23, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Victor Herbert

Yes, please do send me the Grove text on Herbert, and I'll make sure to rewrite any copyvios. All the best, -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:53, 31 October 2009 (UTC) (Preceding in response to [6] - Voceditenore (talk) 16:24, 31 October 2009 (UTC))

Received. I'll start looking at this tomorrow. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:06, 31 October 2009 (UTC)