Maplestrip
Joined 15 October 2014
Latest comment: 3 days ago by Maplestrip in topic If you are interested in sf and African topics
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If you are interested in sf and African topics
editHave you read my Małe zielone ludziki? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:32, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Poitrus: This is extremely cool, I hadn't seen it. Wish there was a translation available. When it comes to my scifi reading I'm still going through lots of American works right now, but I would love to read more world-scifi like this. It's a nice article; it was originally translated by Oliwiasocz? Very good copyedit. ~Maplestrip/Mable (chat) 10:25, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- There are very few translations of anything into English, actually. I could count the Polish sf books translated into English on my two hands probably. Oliwiasocz translates a bunch of stuff from Polish, yes (it's part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Intertranswiki/OKA). Anyway, the book is available as an ebook legally for few bucks, and could be machine translated. I'd not expect to see it ever translated professionally, at least by a human (maybe by AI in the near future when all stuff will be AI translated, we will see this in a decade or two IMHO). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:49, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Poitrus: Well, you writing these English-language articles might help slightly. We can always hope. Fan-translations would be awesome too, of course. You might know how enormous the market of Japanese-to-English fan-translations is, haha, though sadly Poland isn't quite so popular. Unless your name is Stanisław Lem or Andrzej Sapkowski. Still, anyone could translate Cyberjoly Drim it seems to me, and put it up online... I sure hope LLM-translations are not going to take over everything like that. ~Maplestrip/Mable (chat) 19:01, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- Having looked at this problem for more than twenty years (when I first became aware of it), and now familiar with its history, I don't think anything but LLM can help. English publishers have a rock-hard if not fully rational dislike of translations (probably because their native market is so large; I am curious how it looks for Spanish and Portuguese); whereas those for smaller languages (Polish, German, Czech, etc.) are much more open to translations because those markets can't produce enough local works to satisfy demand. I created my first articles about works of one of the best Polish sf writers (Jacek Dukaj) years ago, and they still haven't been translated. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 00:59, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Piotrus: LLMs are not going to change those market conditions, though, and when it comes science-fiction, people are probably more likely to just read another American author rather than a machine-translated Polish author. One thing that seems to get the world-market interested is adaptations, though, be it Solaris or The Witcher. I think there's lots of ways these countries can grow their international presence. But it's very hard. For now I'm just glad that I know Polish sci-fi is a thing at all, thanks to you. ~Maplestrip/Mable (chat) 09:04, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- I am not sure about this. People read fanfiction, ebooks, and more and more of LLM content anyway - and LLM is getting better. I think we are going to see a trend of people becoming more accepting of LLM meeting better and better LLM content meet one day. Also, cultures converge, and English publisher dislike of translation is not common in other parts of the world. Now, this is subjective, but I grew up in Poland, surrounded by a ton of English translations, as well as some from Russian and various other languages. Once I moved to US and became interested in what is in the bookstores there, I was shocked it's 99.9% English, with no translations from other languages. Today in Polish bookstores, for example, if I look at, let's say, sf section, it is usually divided into two halves: one is for Polish authors, and the other for translations. English translations account for maybe 50-75% of the latter, but it is still common to find stuff translated from other languages. (You mention the Witcher; one of my to-do projects is to write/translate articles about some Russian/Ukrainian Witcher "fanfiction" by serious writers - I wonder if Sapkowski gave them permission - that got published in book format and got published in Polish/Russian/Ukrainian and probably few more languages (but not English); see also a rare interesting Russian sf book translated to English that is semi-fanfiction, of LOTR: The Last Ringbearer - this one you can actually read in English, translated by humans - but you cannot buy it due to legal reasons :). PS. Translations from Japanese are an interesting exception, but they are pretty recent and riding on the gigantic wave of anime/manga popularity. They are just a tip of the iceberg of international sci-fi that most English readers don't even know exist. Seriously, it is quite weird that actually English speakers have access to the smallest amount of international sci-fi (b/c it is not translated into English, unlike Polish, German, Russian, etc.). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:36, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Piotrus: I've looked a little bit at Dutch scifi, but sadly haven't quite gotten into reading stuff from my home country yet. It's a mix of English-to-Dutch translations and Dutch originals here as well, though I like to eye the non-translated English section. I want to learn French to at least increase my perspective a bit more, but learning languages is of course not easy. I think I had seen your The Last Ringbearer article before, btw; you and Chriswick did a great job on that! I'll note that the 40 year history of anime fan-translations, and perhaps 30-year history of manga fan-translations, is nothing to scuff at. It can serve as an inspiration: all you need is a community with members interested in putting in the work. Then again, seeing as even the international audience for Russian film and animation is pretty small, I imagine finding a community interested in Polish books would remain very tiny. It's a shame. Still, I don't have much input either way while I haven't even read the most famous ones yet. I did watch Solaris, but it's not really my kind of movie ^_^; ~Maplestrip/Mable (chat) 13:02, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- Interesting. Seems we don't have an article on that (Dutch science fiction, just the category for Category:Dutch science fiction). Good source: https://sf-encyclopedia.com/entry/benelux
- Re: "I imagine finding a community interested in Polish books would remain very tiny". That's a very interesting argument that I have trouble understanding, despite hearing it from others. First, Polish books are not particularly different from non-Polish, outside occasionally featuring Polish characters, locales and history. Second, for sf readers in particular, featuring exotic stuff is common. The assumption that sf readers or fantasy readers can read about Mars, or Middle-earth, but not Poland or Korea is something I have trouble grasping. I can imagine some other reasons, such as suspicion of translation quality, or xenophobic prejudice against stuff that is "foreign", but frankly, this is a topic that needs to be researched by scholars to make us understand why so few books (not just Polish, this is true for all languages I am familiar with, with, as I said, recent exception of Japanese) are translated into English (if there is a study on this, I haven't seen it). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:39, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Piotrus: I was actually thinking the opposite problem here. Polish books are not particularly different from non-Polish books, and because of that, a community dedicated to Polish translations doesn't have a specific appeal to it. This is one of the big advantages Japan – and recently Korea – have. The other problem is that people's reading tastes are segmented in different ways. Scifi versus thriller versus historic literature; teen versus young-adult versus adult; etc. Unless it's a certified classic or has been adapted into a visual medium, the audience will be relatively niche. Some awards help of course. But as to why American publishers have so little interest in translations that they don't even exist, I have no clue. ~Maplestrip/Mable (chat) 09:28, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Piotrus: I've looked a little bit at Dutch scifi, but sadly haven't quite gotten into reading stuff from my home country yet. It's a mix of English-to-Dutch translations and Dutch originals here as well, though I like to eye the non-translated English section. I want to learn French to at least increase my perspective a bit more, but learning languages is of course not easy. I think I had seen your The Last Ringbearer article before, btw; you and Chriswick did a great job on that! I'll note that the 40 year history of anime fan-translations, and perhaps 30-year history of manga fan-translations, is nothing to scuff at. It can serve as an inspiration: all you need is a community with members interested in putting in the work. Then again, seeing as even the international audience for Russian film and animation is pretty small, I imagine finding a community interested in Polish books would remain very tiny. It's a shame. Still, I don't have much input either way while I haven't even read the most famous ones yet. I did watch Solaris, but it's not really my kind of movie ^_^; ~Maplestrip/Mable (chat) 13:02, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- I am not sure about this. People read fanfiction, ebooks, and more and more of LLM content anyway - and LLM is getting better. I think we are going to see a trend of people becoming more accepting of LLM meeting better and better LLM content meet one day. Also, cultures converge, and English publisher dislike of translation is not common in other parts of the world. Now, this is subjective, but I grew up in Poland, surrounded by a ton of English translations, as well as some from Russian and various other languages. Once I moved to US and became interested in what is in the bookstores there, I was shocked it's 99.9% English, with no translations from other languages. Today in Polish bookstores, for example, if I look at, let's say, sf section, it is usually divided into two halves: one is for Polish authors, and the other for translations. English translations account for maybe 50-75% of the latter, but it is still common to find stuff translated from other languages. (You mention the Witcher; one of my to-do projects is to write/translate articles about some Russian/Ukrainian Witcher "fanfiction" by serious writers - I wonder if Sapkowski gave them permission - that got published in book format and got published in Polish/Russian/Ukrainian and probably few more languages (but not English); see also a rare interesting Russian sf book translated to English that is semi-fanfiction, of LOTR: The Last Ringbearer - this one you can actually read in English, translated by humans - but you cannot buy it due to legal reasons :). PS. Translations from Japanese are an interesting exception, but they are pretty recent and riding on the gigantic wave of anime/manga popularity. They are just a tip of the iceberg of international sci-fi that most English readers don't even know exist. Seriously, it is quite weird that actually English speakers have access to the smallest amount of international sci-fi (b/c it is not translated into English, unlike Polish, German, Russian, etc.). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:36, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Piotrus: LLMs are not going to change those market conditions, though, and when it comes science-fiction, people are probably more likely to just read another American author rather than a machine-translated Polish author. One thing that seems to get the world-market interested is adaptations, though, be it Solaris or The Witcher. I think there's lots of ways these countries can grow their international presence. But it's very hard. For now I'm just glad that I know Polish sci-fi is a thing at all, thanks to you. ~Maplestrip/Mable (chat) 09:04, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- Having looked at this problem for more than twenty years (when I first became aware of it), and now familiar with its history, I don't think anything but LLM can help. English publishers have a rock-hard if not fully rational dislike of translations (probably because their native market is so large; I am curious how it looks for Spanish and Portuguese); whereas those for smaller languages (Polish, German, Czech, etc.) are much more open to translations because those markets can't produce enough local works to satisfy demand. I created my first articles about works of one of the best Polish sf writers (Jacek Dukaj) years ago, and they still haven't been translated. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 00:59, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Poitrus: Well, you writing these English-language articles might help slightly. We can always hope. Fan-translations would be awesome too, of course. You might know how enormous the market of Japanese-to-English fan-translations is, haha, though sadly Poland isn't quite so popular. Unless your name is Stanisław Lem or Andrzej Sapkowski. Still, anyone could translate Cyberjoly Drim it seems to me, and put it up online... I sure hope LLM-translations are not going to take over everything like that. ~Maplestrip/Mable (chat) 19:01, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
- There are very few translations of anything into English, actually. I could count the Polish sf books translated into English on my two hands probably. Oliwiasocz translates a bunch of stuff from Polish, yes (it's part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Intertranswiki/OKA). Anyway, the book is available as an ebook legally for few bucks, and could be machine translated. I'd not expect to see it ever translated professionally, at least by a human (maybe by AI in the near future when all stuff will be AI translated, we will see this in a decade or two IMHO). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:49, 15 December 2024 (UTC)