User:Tomruen/archive9

2015

Invitation

	You've been invited to be part of WikiProject Cosmology
	Hello. Your contributions to Wikipedia have been analyzed carefully and you're among the few chosen to have a first access to a new project. I hope you can contribute to it by expanding the main page and later start editing the articles in its scope. Make sure to check out the Talk page for more information! Cheers Tetra quark (talk) 19:56, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Nets for Geodestic spheres

Hi, Im new to wikipedia and just looking around I noticed you have really amazing. I was looking at this page User:Tomruen/Geodestic_sphere and i was wondering if there was a 2d Net somewhere for those shapes. Like someone thing you could theoretically print out on a piece of paper and then fold into those shapes. — also I was wondering what program you were using to make those images.—thx — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jooe15 (talk • contribs) 02:32, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Hi Jooe15, Thanks! Most I didn't do but I have software to make nets. This[1] Free webpage generates polyhedra, and OBJ export. And not-free Stella (software) can draw nets of imported polyhedra. Which one are you interested in. Conway polyhedron notation is given on many at Goldberg polyhedron and Capsid. Tom Ruen (talk) 03:02, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Johnson

Tom, you are plastering references to Johnson, Geometries and transformations (2015) across Wikipedia as fast as you can type. At present I can find no reference at all to this publication elsewhere, not Google, not Amazon, nada, zilch. There are just the old few references to the draft MS he circulated some years ago. What is your basis for all this? If it doesn't appear ASAP, you will have made a handsome mess. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 10:36, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I have a preprint PDF. It has been accepted for publication last September. Its a limited source for polytopes, but an extremely detailed source for Coxeter groups and subgroups and related terminology. I'll take responsibility if there's some delay for printing. Tom Ruen (talk) 10:39, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Um. I have asked the question at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Mathematics#Citing_a_preprint. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 11:20, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

WikiProject Cosmology - task

I decided to drop you a message to make sure you check out the first task of the cosmology project: Help improve the Universe. Please feel free to remove this message after you read it :) Tetra quark (talk) 03:31, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

cube truncations

It works with cantellation too! [2] ;-) Double sharp (talk) 07:16, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

You could analogically call the phases "cantellation" (rhombicuboctahedron), "complete cantellation" (octahedron), "hypercantellation" (unnamed), "complete hypercantellation" (degenerate, cube with hidden stuff inside), "quasicantellation" (great rhombicuboctahedron), complete quasicantellation (unnamed), and anticantellation (unnamed). Double sharp (talk) 07:20, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

It looks fun. Tom Ruen (talk) 07:48, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

OK, how's this?

Cube cantellations

Cube {4,3}	Cantellation rr{4,3}	Complete cantellation {3,4}
Anticantellation		Hypercantellation
Complete quasicantellation	Quasicantellation rr{4,3/2} rr{4/3,3}	Complete hypercantellation

It would be better with a few more intermediate cases, though. Double sharp (talk) 11:04, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

P.S. I'd love to see this applied to runcinating a tesseract, but by that point it might get visually really confusing. It would be really cool, though! Double sharp (talk) 11:06, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

It looks very nice, but we have no sources besides Bowers who uses his own terminology. Tom Ruen (talk) 11:09, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Wait, so the truncations are actually in Coxeter? That is really cool. Double sharp (talk) 13:14, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

The truncations are real, but we need sources there too for terminology. Quasitruncation comes from Johnson at least. Tom Ruen (talk) 23:48, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Of course they're real. Do you mean Coxeter mentions the entire sequence, but without the names like hyper- and antitruncation? Double sharp (talk) 07:34, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Nope, not to my knowledge. I just made visualizations of what was described on the wikipedia page. So the hyper-,anti- truncated forms, even if vertex-transitive are not mentioned apparently because they can't generate uniform (equal edge-length) solutions. Tom Ruen (talk) 11:11, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Omnisnub tesseract and friends

Hi Tomruen, do you know any way to make pictures for cases like ht_0,1,2,3{4,3,3}? Double sharp (talk) 13:45, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

It's mostly easy to generate as alternated coordinates of the omnitruncation (V-E-V walk algorithm marking vertices even/odd sets), and Stella can import 4OFF 4D coordinates (and generate full convex hull). There will be different edge lengths, like this construction File:Snubcubes_in_grCO.svg, but no way to equalize them all. Tom Ruen (talk) 18:34, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Cool. Can you make pictures of the remaining nonuniforms? (ht_0,1,2,3{3,3,3}, ht_0,1,2,3{4,3,3}, sr₃{3,3,4}, ht_0,1,2,3{3,4,3}, ht_0,1,2,3{5,3,3}, ht_0,1,2,3{3,3,2}, ht_0,1,2,3{4,3,2}, ht_0,1,2,3{5,3,2}.) Or at least give 4OFF files that can be imported to Stella.

(P.S. Even though they're nonuniform, because of their nonuniform cells, these figures are all still isogonal, right? So I would expect their duals to be isochoric as well.) Double sharp (talk) 08:54, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

It's not a priority for me now, but if I dig out my programs sometime. I'd rather get SVG graphs for all the [3,3,5]polychora in all the coxeter planes. (Previously I mainly cheated, made coordinates from sign/position permutations.) And yes isogonal, and duals isochoric. Tom Ruen (talk) 09:05, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Symmetry operations

Hello! I'm Daria from Russia. I'm very sorry, but I heve some difficaltes with translation into English some terms and wordings conected with chasles theorem, affine motions of plane turn, glide reflection, symmetry,rotational movement... Maybe you know some good webside about that topic? I can't find a good one. Could you help me, please? My email: [email protected] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.252.74.7 (talk) 21:15, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

A correspondence table for the different systems of naming convex uniform polychora

Hi Tomruen. I just realized I made this table some time ago: User:Double sharp/Uniform polychora. Double sharp (talk) 15:36, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Looks useful in Stella4D at least. Tom Ruen (talk) 23:54, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

P.s. I wonder why Bowers calls the rectified 24-cell a disicositetrachoron, and the snub 24-cell a snub disicositetrachoron? He also calls the rectified 5-cell a dispentachoron, double the cells of the 5-cell, but the truncations also double the cells. And anyway, I don't see how to get the snub 24-cell from the rectified 24-cell. Tom Ruen (talk) 02:03, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Wait, where does Bowers use disicositetrachoron for the rectified {3,4,3}? On his website he gives rectified icositetrachoron, if I am not mistaken – I suspect because any truncation is going to double the cell count. In the cases where all the cells are congruent (the midpoint of bitruncation) he adds the prefixes and gets tetracontoctachoron.

I suspect that disicositetrachoron got used in the name of the snub 24-cell for convenience, for there it cannot mean anything but the original truncated 24-cell. After all, the snub 24-cell has 24 icosahedra (alternated truncated octahedra), 24 tetrahedra (alternated cubes), and 96 tetrahedra (these are the snub cells, filling in the gaps made from the deleted vertices): hence snub (96) disicositetrachoron (2×24). That is consistent with the names like snub dodecadodecahedron in 3D, at least, although for consistency he really should use snub cuboctahedron and snub icosidodecahedron. (Along with hypothetical nonuniform snub prismatodecachoron, snub disprismatotesseractihexadecachoron, snub prismatotetracontoctachoron, and snub disprismatohexacosihecatonicosachoron.)

I wonder: does Johnson have any name for (nonuniform)? Bowers does not seem to have one. I would expect Johnson to use runcic snub rectified 16-cell. Double sharp (talk) 06:03, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Okay, I see George uses disicositetrachoron (#23=r{3,4,3}). Runcic snub rectified means one node is ringed beyond the snub, sr₃{3,4,3}, . In constrast sr{3,3,4} (Same as snub 24-cell!) = is a snub rectified 16-cell but cantisnub 16-cell would be consistent since snub is an alternated truncation, versus alternated cantitruncation. So sr₃{3,3,4} could also be a runcic cantisnub 16-cell? Tom Ruen (talk) 06:17, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Oops! I meant to ring the final node, creating s3s3s4x (). Sorry for the mistake, but thanks for the naming suggestions. Does that make a truncic tesseract (= r{4,3,3})? Double sharp (talk) 07:32, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Johnson doesn't name h₁. And that's why I write as a half symmetry operation, like [1 ,2p]=[p], = , instead of or as an alternation, having no effect on the geometry. It's a half symmetry of the same figure, i.e. . And more generally = , or by symmetry = , [1 ,2p,3,3]=[(3,p,3),3]. Tom Ruen (talk) 07:39, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

p.s. Maybe someday we'll say r{1 ,4,3,3} for , half symmetry form of r{4,3,3} for ? And you could also say {4,(3,3)*}={}⁴ = 1/24th symmetry form of tesseract? (Parallel to subgroup symmetry [4,(3,3)*] = []⁴, subgroup index 24, = ) Tom Ruen (talk) 10:00, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Infinite polygons

Hi Tom,

I am replying to your email here because my email system is currently a mess.

Sorry, I don't have a digital copy. There isn't even one on Branko's web site.

In the paper he identifies three types of regular "infinite polygon":

• "Apeirogon", the subdivided straight line
• "Zigzag", the plane, er, zigzag
• "Helical polygon", a screw shape winding round an infinite prism-ish core.

But it is important to remember that Grünbaum's paper is forty years old, Coxeter's even older, and times have changed since then.

For example here is a link to a 2014 book using "apeirogon" for infinite polygons in general, and "straight apeirogon" for the original variety (near bottom of page): https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=_n4eBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA331&lpg=PA331

mathworld also describes an "apeirogon" in the hyperbolic plane, which is none of the above.

We need to follow the terminology in these more recent sources.

— Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 20:04, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, forgot to add:

The Generalized polygons of Tits are a rather different beast, more a class of configuration than a real polytope. Best to keep these ideas well separate.

Skew polygons is really just a descriptive term, it has relatively little mathematical significance. The helical apeirogons are skew, but the others described are not.

— Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 20:16, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Talk:List of regular polytopes and compounds

Tom, can I please ask you to take more care in sticking to WP:ETIQUETTE and remaining WP:CIVIL. it is a great discourtesy and is frowned upon, to edit another user's post - see WP:AVOIDABUSE. In such tendentious circumstances as we find ourselves in, it is important to take special care. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 20:12, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Just read your email. My crustiness over the content is one thing, but I do try to remain civil and reasonable. You have gone too far the other way and yes, I do take that personally. You can take my post above as further comment on that. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 20:29, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

I apologize for my imprudent, impatient attempts helpfulness. I misread your reactions as joyful exuberance. Tom Ruen (talk) 21:06, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Accepted. I will remain crusty over proper sourcing and presentation of the content. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 21:29, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Nomination for merging of Template:Infobox Solar eclipse2

Template:Infobox Solar eclipse2 has been nominated for merging with Template:Infobox Solar eclipse. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Thank you. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:21, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

March 2015

Hello, I'm Ad Orientem. I noticed that you made a change to an article, Life Is Real Only Then, When 'I Am', but you didn't provide a reliable source. It's been removed and archived in the page history for now, but if you'd like to include a citation and re-add it, please do so! If you need guidance on referencing, please see the referencing for beginners tutorial, or if you think I made a mistake, you can leave me a message on my talk page. The article has no reliable sources. Please do not re-add material w/o proper citation to reliable independent sources. Ad Orientem (talk) 19:33, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

The book exists, the author is notable. I don't see the problem. Tom Ruen (talk) 19:36, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Notability is debatable. WP:V and WP:CITE are not. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:44, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

So if I read a book, and write a summary, how does someone verify the accuracy of my summary? Tom Ruen (talk) 20:03, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that is exactly correct. See WP:OR. Out of deference to WP:3RR I am not going to revert this again. However I am requesting that you do so. If you do not, I may have to request intervention from an Admin which I would rather not do. -Ad Orientem (talk) 20:13, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Please stop adding unsourced content, as you did to Life Is Real Only Then, When 'I Am'. This contravenes Wikipedia's policy on verifiability. If you continue to do so, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Ad Orientem (talk) 20:10, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Please stop removing content without discussion. It is disrespectful to the person who took the time to write up the summary. Tom Ruen (talk) 20:18, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

It has been discussed. The article has no reliable sources which flatly contravenes WP:POLICY. I really don't know what more to say. I have posted links to guidelines and policy to which you seem to just be thumbing your nose. If reliable sources are not added and or the article is not reverted to its stubbed form I will take the matter to WP:ANI. I hope that will not be necessary. -Ad Orientem (talk) 20:28, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Please take the matter to WP:ANI or whomever you like. I don't understand what standards you see missing. Tom Ruen (talk) 20:31, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

You may be blocked from editing without further warning the next time you add unsourced material to Wikipedia, as you did at Life Is Real Only Then, When 'I Am'. - MrX 20:34, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Your right to remove material without discussion seems no greater value than my right to protect it. It takes two to edit war. Tom Ruen (talk) 20:37, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

You can't repeatedly add poorly sourced and unsourced material. Verifiability is policy. I strongly suggest that you stop readding this content or you will likely be blocked from editing for a while.- MrX 20:41, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Your recent editing history at Life Is Real Only Then, When 'I Am' shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you get reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See BRD for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly. - MrX 20:50, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

The default state of a content conflict is no change, until the conflict is resolving. The person deleting summary material is the the one who is warring. Tom Ruen (talk) 20:51, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

I have reverted your continued insistence on adding material which clearly and so far as I can tell is in explicit violation of WP:V and WP:OR. It is incumbent on anyone who seeks to add material to meet [{WP:BURDEN]] requirements. If you cannot meet the requirements of WP:BURDEN, then you should not add the material. It is more than rude to continue to insist that violation of policies and guidelines is acceptable on your own. Please refrain from doing so again. John Carter (talk) 21:03, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Actually, not only does it "take two to edit war" as you started earlier, but you're the one who's adding material that fails WP:Policy. If so many users are removing content that you alone are adding, why keep it up? We're already talking about it on the talk page.--Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 21:05, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

The only reason I care at all is because the deleting seems senseless. I can move it to a user page and see what I can find, if that would make you feel better? The integrity of wikipedia is under threat of unsanctioned summaries. But in the mean time we have a deletion request, which deserves the content to be maintained for evaluation. Tom Ruen (talk) 21:06, 20 March 2015

Notice of Edit warring noticeboard discussion

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on edit warring. Thank you. Kingofaces43 (talk) 21:07, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Notice of Edit warring noticeboard discussion

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on edit warring. The thread is Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:Tomruen reported by User:Ad Orientem (Result: ). Thank you. Ad Orientem (talk) 21:10, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Notice of Edit warring noticeboard discussion

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on edit warring. Thank you. John Carter (talk) 21:14, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Solardb

Hi, I have been working on a lua version of template:Infobox Solar eclipse and template:Infobox Solar eclipse2 which is currently in Module:Solar eclipse and called by Template:Infobox Solar eclipse/sandbox. if you want to see an example of it in action, see this old revision. basically, it does the same thing as before, but with the database information stored in Special:PrefixIndex/Module:Solar eclipse/data (which were converted using a script from the "Template:SolareclipseNUM db" pages). while I was creating the module pages, I found some typos in the "Template:SolareclipseNUM db" templates, so it might be good to check them all?

1. Template:Solareclipse205 db has errors in 2094Jun13 and 2094Jul12
2. Template:Solareclipse210 db has errors in 2123Nov, 2129Feb, 2110Feb, 21Sep15, 21Mar22 (someone removed the 18s)
3. Template:Solareclipse225 db has errors in the Cat in 2288Feb02

is the NASA website the best source for the information? (e.g., http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEcat5/SE2101-2200.html). if so, I can use a script to verify all the data in the modules/templates. thank you. Frietjes (talk) 16:43, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

The NASA website listing should be best. The Saros cycle grouping was chosen because each set was limited.[3] So the only updates might be recomputations on current event ones? On my template data, I remember, part of the large number of columns is to help give flexibility of output, so wonder if lua would allow more flexible reformatting so you could just do a direct transfer of data columns from the NASA list? Lastly, I don't 100% see what you've done, but it looks promising and superior. Tom Ruen (talk) 16:57, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

yes, the nice thing about using lua is that you load in the entire line that corresponds to an eclipse, and then you can reformat/process it however you want. for example, if you compare Module:Solar eclipse/data/150 with Template:Solareclipse150 db using this link. the biggest improvement is the reduction in the size of the code since we don't need the YYYYMMDD prefix for each parameter, and we only need to specify the date in one format. the lua module can use the y, m, d, to generate the full date. as you mentioned, the ideal situation would be to be able to take the data table from the NASA website, and with minimal processing, generate the database pages. I believe this is possible, and will work on a script to do it automatically, which will allow us to find any errors in the database templates/modules. Frietjes (talk) 17:16, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Tomruen: would you be interested in working on infoboxes for lunar eclipses? There is Template:Infobox lunar eclipse which is currently deployed on one article: June 2029 lunar eclipse. Also, what do you and Frietjes think about trying to transfer some of this data to Wikidata? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:21, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi Martin. The new solar tables are good. Something like that is definitely good for lunar eclipses. Just needs to add p1,p4 times. Also I'm not sure if the earth globe fits into the table, at least the table can also show an eclipse photo for past events too. Anyway I'd like to help, but not sure when. Tom Ruen (talk) 13:27, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

The module databases are good, but only benefit the English wikipedia. Getting them on to wikidata should be the eventual aim, if possible. I've proposed some needed properties at wikidata:Wikidata:Property proposal/Space, but I'm quite new to this. Regards — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:40, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Please would you comment at wikidata:Wikidata:Property proposal/Space? Someone is asking whether the times P1, U1, P2, etc. apply to other types of eclipse. Thanks — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:54, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Some nets

I uploaded nets for some of the Conway polyhedron forms, like rectified truncated icosahedron, expanded icosidodecahedron, etc.

(I tried to recreate something that looked like your images, so in some cases had to try to spread the distortion of faces away from regularity over the whole polyhedron. So for my rtI net, the hexagons and pentagons are regular, but the triangles aren't – this looks like a very good near-miss Johnson solid, actually! This does mean that the dual is not geometrically equivalent to the rhombic enneacontahedron, but is still topologically the same.) Double sharp (talk) 06:54, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

(How do you make btI and stI in Stella?) Double sharp (talk) 07:05, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Looks good! Yes, agree on rhombic enneacontahedron topology. I'd import polyhedra in Stella as OFF (file format). The Conway generator [4] exports Wavefront .obj file which is similar, but index from 1. Tom Ruen (talk) 17:45, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I managed to get stI without importing using some sneaky tricks: start with rtI and truncate it (giving a distorted btI). Then alternate the resulting btI (use faceting mode). Then try to make the faces regular (results in a nonconvex polyhedron), and then project it onto a sphere (makes it go back to being convex, with minimal distortion). Unfortunately, this doesn't work for btI, as attempting to project the result onto a sphere would produce skew polygonal faces. Double sharp (talk) 04:29, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:2 2k polytopes

Template:2 2k polytopes has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. JMHamo (talk) 23:50, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Euler characteristic

Wow! This is to compliment you on making those images for Euler characteristic so quickly. Wasn't expecting that. -- 108.122.99.20 (talk) 02:25, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Sure. I wasn't sure about the "torus faces", but I guessed. Tom Ruen (talk) 02:35, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Need help

Hi Tom.

I am not understanding Cuboctahedron having 6 Octahedrons (Double Square Pyramids) and 8 Tetrahedrons.

This is what I came up with dissecting a Cube: 1 Cuboctahedron and 8 Tetrahedrons.

http://demonstrations.wolfram.com/DissectionOfACubeIntoACuboctahedronAndAnOctahedron/

Can you confirm these calculations?

There is a cube of sides = 1. The Volume = 1.

Them we take take the mid points of the sides, and shave off the corners. What are left with is 1 Cuboctahedron. The sides of this are 1/root of 2. The volume of this comes to 0.833 approx.

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Cuboctahedron.html.

From 8 Corners, we get 8 RegularTetrahedron. The base is equilateral and size of 1/root 2. And the slanted sides are of size 1/2. The volume of this comes to approx 0.167 for 8 of them (as per subtraction).

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/RegularTetrahedron.html

Now if "dissect" the Cuboctahedron, we can think of 6 Square Pyramids of side 1/root 2 and height of 1/2 - from its 6 faces. The volume of 6 of them comes to approx to 0.5! So the "remaing of Cuboctahedron" is approx 0.33 but the "remaining of "Cube minus Cuboctahedron " is 0.167 - half of 0.333 nearly.

So it points that the remaining "remaing of Cuboctahedron minus 6 Square Pyramid " has space left for 16 Tetrahedrons?

But I can only see 8 Tetrahedrons pointing inside, and they have to be 2 times the volume occupied by 8 Pointing outwards - which formed the corner of cubes. Thanks, Sunil. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:BC46:4750:BDD1:BBBC:9837:6133 (talk) 01:20, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Tetrahedron-octahedron honeycomb

I'm not sure I fully follow, but the cuboctahedron is related to the tetrahedron-octahedron honeycomb, dividing space into regular tets and octs, with square pyramids (of the cuboctahedron) being half regular octahedra. In constrast the 8 truncated corners from the cube are not regular tetrahedra. Tom Ruen (talk) 19:19, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Definition of Platonic solids

Hi,

you revoked my revision because you found the presence of the two equivalent definitions confusing. You may be right, perhaps it is really confusing here. But I am sure, that this redundant definition is much more confusing, because it suggests, that regularity is a criterion independent from the others, but it isn't true. May I propose to change de definition simply to

In Euclidean geometry, a Platonic solid is a convex polyhedron with congruent faces of regular polygons and the same number of faces meeting at each vertex.

Regularity is an unnecessarily complicated thing here. However it is more generally applicable, that's why I kept it here in my revision. But perhaps it would be really better to mention it later. 89.135.19.75 (talk) 09:07, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

I agree regular convex polyhedron is redundant with Platonic solid. I'd reword like this. What do you think?

In Euclidean geometry, a Platonic solid is a regular, convex polyhedron. It is constructed by congruent regular polygonal faces with the same number of faces meeting at each vertex.

Much more better, then the original. 89.135.19.75 (talk) 18:15, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Template:Semireg polyhedra db

The table of polyhedron properties in truncated cuboctahedron gives incorrect values for the cosines of dihedral angles. Upon digging, it turns out that it dates from this edit of yours to the "Semireg polyhedra db" template. I nearly corrected the cosine values myself, but I realized I didn't (independently) know the actual dihedral angles to compare against. (A web search is fairly polluted with Wikipedia mirrors). When you get a chance, could you update the template please? -- 128.46.119.2 (talk) 20:04, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

I temporarily misplaced my copy of Williamson's book to check. But it should be checkable. Tom Ruen (talk) 00:03, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Stella (software) seems to confirm the current values at truncated cuboctahedron, decimal values: 4-6: 144.736°, 4-8:135°, 6-8:125.264°. Tom Ruen (talk) 00:11, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Heptadecagon

Hello Tomruen,
I hope my contribution in Heptadecagon is useful. Please check the text of "Differences to the original: ..." and correct it if required ... My Englsch is no longer good. Thanks in advance --Petrus3743 (talk) 18:33, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Looks pretty good to me. Tom Ruen (talk) 01:46, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Face configuration

There is a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mathematics#Face configuration. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 11:51, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

discusing illustration you made of hypercycles

Equally spaced hypercycle mirror lines in Poincaré disk model, with even and odd fundamental domains colored blue and brown.

Your illustration on the right is used at the page for hypercycle (geometry) and I am wondering if the arcs are even hyper cycles. (instead of hyperbolic lines) see Talk:Hypercycle (geometry)#Wondering about image please join the discussion there

Thanks in advance WillemienH (talk) 21:54, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

k-uniform "Euclidean tilings of regular polygons"

Just to let you know: In some of your edits to Euclidean_tilings_of_regular_polygons, you use wording like

There are 151 4-uniform tilings of the Euclidean plane. Brian Galebach's search reproduced 
Krotenheerdt's list of 33 4-uniform tilings with 4 distinct vertex types, as well as finding 
85 of them with 3 vertex types, and 33 with 2 vertex types."

I'm not sure this is quite the best wording. Krotenheerdt gives the list of 33 4-uniform tilings, but without pictures. I gave the first pictures of those 33 tilings. Galebach reproduced my list of pictures, but also discovered the list of the 85 tilings with 3 vertex types and 33 tilings with 2 vertex types. I don't really know if those distinctions are worth putting into this general article, and of course I'm too close to the issue to make such distinctions for Wikipedia, but I wanted to make sure that you, at least, understood them. Of course the same statements are also true about the 5-uniform and 6-uniform tilings by regular polygons. In my 1984 thesis (p. 187, in the "Further research" section) I wrote with respect to v-isogonal, e-isotoxal, and t-isohedral tilings: "Of course we can always try to extend these results to higher values of v, e, and t; but most further results will probably require the use of a computer search." Thus when Galebach built his program to do this (at least for the v-isogonal tilings) I was quite pleased, and also felt vindicated on that particular statement.

I should also mention that I really appreciate the work you've done on this page in constructing the beautiful colorings of these tilings. I'm not sure everyone will appreciate how long that article has gotten, but I, at least, love all the great pictures you've added. I also appreciate the fact that you added a reference to Nils Lenngren's Bachelor's thesis on k-uniform tilings. When he started working on that, he got in touch with me, and I gave him my thesis along with a few suggestions. (In fact, he's why I finally scanned my thesis in and posted it online.) I think Nils did some very nice work, and I'm glad to see him listed in this article. Darrah (talk) 02:33, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Hi Darrah. Thanks for your feedback and clarifications. I consider your work as primary even if under-cited, and I'm sure there's much important information in your thesis that should be included here, and I'm neglectful in my zeal to get the pictures up. (And also planning to upload new color images with t-isohedral colored faces, and e-isotoxal edges, and v-gonal colored vertices, or maybe multiple image-sets with different subsets of these.)

I welcome and would hope you could improve the wording and contents as well, even if there's some conflict of interest perhaps(?), but I'm as grateful for feedback where it needs work.

And on article size and length, I agree its too big now, and eventually perhaps each k-uniform full set needs to be moved into separate articles, and more of a summary here, but nice to work in one place for now. I have 2-uniform tiling, 3-uniform tiling, 4-uniform tiling, and 5-uniform tiling as redirects to sections here. Tom Ruen (talk) 03:05, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Pyritohedra

Dear Tom, I see with interest your animated dodecahedron pulsating between a cube and a rhombic dodecahedron. (At Dodecahedron: File:Pyritohedron_animation.gif)

I created a dodecahedron through paper folding an icosahedron elastegrity that you can view on the top of the 6 images shown https://in.momath.org/civicrm/event/info?reset=1&id=133 The elastegrity (elastic integrity of form) was named by analogy to tensegrity (form integrity through tension alone) and consists or 8 cube corners suspended by 12 elastic hinges.

I am in the process of publishing a paper on the math objects that are implied by the physical objects created through "dactylognostic"* explorations of paper or other shape memory materials. One of the physical objects was a momohedron dodecahedron with pentagon congruent faces that had 4 equal sides and a shorter side across a right angle. Also I folded a regular dodecahedron. My mathematician collaborator (Tom Banchoff) generalized this paper folding proving a theorem that there is a whole range of monohedra dodecahedra from the cube (one of the pentagon angles = 180) to the rhombic dodecahedron (one side of the pentagon is equal to zero). This is much like the animation that you provided in the WIKI page.

Do you have a mathematical proof to support this animation? If you so where is it so we can reference in the proposed article? The physical object in addition to shape shifting through this family of Dodecahedra also shape shifts through an icosahedron, cube, octahedron, tetrahedron, a spherical structure that has the same symmetry as the 12 strut tensegrity and the fourth dimensional hypercube. if you email an address to [email protected] I can share with you this unpublished draft.

I assume I can post some on this information in WIKI on the dodecahedra page only after it gets published in a peer reviewed journal. thanks, Lefteris Pavlides

• dactylognositc is a word I made up to describe the process of discovery that led me to elastegrities from dactyl = finger and gnosis = knowledge (especially revealed knowledge)Eleftherios Pavlides (talk) 19:05, 17 August 2015 (UTC)Eleftherios Pavlides (talk) 19:08, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

Hi Lefteris Pavlides. I don't have any proof, just the parametric coordinates given. There are similar animations here, here, and here, talked about here Talk:Dodecahedron#Pyritohedron_animation, and which go further with negative positions. Tom Ruen (talk) 06:59, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Kaleidoscope

The sentence "The Archimedeans [sic!] solids can be constructed as generator positions in a kaleidoscope." was apparently added by you to Archimedean solid. What is meant by that? The only non-proper name meaning of Kaleidoscope (disambiguation) is the well-known tube of mirrors. Can you please either reword the sentence to use standard language, or link to an article that explains what you have in mind? Thanks! — Sebastian 20:18, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

I removed the stray s and added a link. Tom Ruen (talk) 07:02, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, but that section doesn't explain what's meant by "kaleidoscope", either. Or am I missing something? — Sebastian 14:42, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

It is an arrangement of mirrors, but in a spherical space instead of the pretty-much-Euclidean space physical kaleidoscopes (rather obviously) live in. Maybe that ought to be clarified... Double sharp (talk) 14:50, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes, Coxeter uses the word kaleidoscope exactly as its ordinary meaning - a system of 3 mirrors that define the boundaries of a fundamental domain. I'm sorry there's no simple place to link that on wikipedia. Tom Ruen (talk) 14:54, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks to both of you for the explanation. I'm beginning to see what you mean. I'll add the word "kaleidoscope" to the Wythoff construction article, which I think would help make it clear for others. — Sebastian 16:44, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Image at Meteoroid

Hi Tom, Thank you for your contribution of an image at Meteoroid. You feel that it is better than the previously posted one. I respect your opinion, but truth to be told, I had to squint and look very carefully to see anything in the image that you posted. I had to move the image up and down on my screen to determine whether the effect in the upper left quarter was not some dust on my screen; I didn't notice that the other panels had any content, other than stars. It required reading the caption to understand that I was looking at a sequence in time, not something in a cross-hair field of view. So, I didn't feel that it illustrated the subject well. Another editor suggests at Talk:Meteoroid#Image sequence ionization trail using only the first image in the sequence. I concur that the initial image illustrates the subject sufficiently. Sincerely, User:HopsonRoad 00:14, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Image at Marjorie Rice

Thanks for adding the images at Marjorie Rice! It's very close to what I was envisioning when I asked for this at the pentagonal tiling talk page, and I think your coloring helps make the differences between the four tilings clearer than the previous choice by Pegg of using a single color within each tile. I still think it would look a little better and be more convenient for use elsewhere if they were grouped into a single image file rather than collected together as four separate images, though. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:35, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Actually, the fact that they're separated allows for them to be spread out vertically, like a frieze. That would be reminiscent of the way she chose to decorate her own web page. — Sebastian 19:47, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Since you wrote "unsure", please don't worry about hurting my feelings if you want to revert me. I did that based on WP:ILIKEIT.

But I am wondering about your coloring. In addition to the usual isohedral coloring it appears that in types 9, 12, and 13, you distinguish chirality of the yellow/green tiles. In type 9 and 13, those that have the same chirality as the blue tiles are green, which makes sense to me since yellow blue=green. But in type 12, tiles with the blue chirality are yellow, not green. In type 11, it's the blue tiles that come in two chiralities; is there a reason why you couldn't color those in green/yellow, and the light yellow ones blue, instead? — Sebastian 15:00, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

On coloring, it depends on where the 2-fold gyration points are located. So the isohedral colors double only on tiles that don't have gyration points on their edges. Here's a markup, done quickly in MSPaint. Squares are gyration points in 22× and 2222 symmetry, and green lines are glide reflection lines. Tom Ruen (talk) 17:01, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

AH, drawing the fundamental domain helped me see all 4 of them needs 4-colors for p2 symmetry. I should have known doubling the fundamental domain would double the k-isohedral coloring. Tom Ruen (talk) 18:22, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, the corrected pictures are helping me too, in realizing that I had been missing the need for the 4th color, too. As they are now, all issues I wrote about are addressed, except for the choice of secondary colors. In type 9 and 13 the color choices are $yellow\cong lightblue\land green\cong darkblue$, whereas type 11 and 12 use $yellow\cong darkblue\land green\cong lightblue$. I find the first choice more intuitive, and would like to ask you to adjust type 11 and 12 to match the other two pictures. — Sebastian 19:31, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

The color can be changed pretty quickly. I did them too quick to be consistent. Whatever colors we choose, my ideal would differentate between direct and mirror images, perhaps (original) pastels for direct images, and bright colors for mirror images. My effort was leaning there, without being consistent. Tom Ruen (talk) 20:40, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes, pairing them as pastel vs saturated might look really nice. — Sebastian 05:28, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Chiral images for pentagonal tilings

I have corrected back the page on Pentagonal tilings, and asked for changes in some of the figures. Please see my comment in the talk page.

Pacosantosleal (talk) 17:44, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Pentagonal tiling: Colors of sides (Reinhardt)

Hello Tom - I am interested in the pentagonal tiling (you designed the figures of the used pentagons). I have questions concerning the coloring of the sides.

Isn't it true that in Reinhardt-1 (<https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Prototile_p5-type1.png>) sides b=c , so that the color should be the same?

In Reinhard-4 <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagonal_tiling#/media/File:Prototile_p5-type4.png> this is the case.

I put emphasis on this, as Reinhardt categorizes pentagrams in his thesis according to (non-)identity of the 5 sides.

Looking forward to your comment. ! Bikkit ! (talk) 06:34, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Hi Bikkit, according to the information I have, (Applet at http://www.jaapsch.net/tilings/), there are no length constraints on type-1. There are 5-degrees of freedom (excluding scale and rotation) for Type 1 in the applet. Tom Ruen (talk) 09:33, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your answer! And thanks for the great link!

Other issue: Could you have a look at Solomon W. Golomb. There is something wrong (I found it while looking for "reptiles"). Thanks ! Bikkit ! (talk) 06:31, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

flower of life

Hi how can i find the wiki formatting code for the previous Flower of Life page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Odarcan (talk • contribs) 17:02, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Hi Odarcan. I don't know that. It seems lost forever after being deleted. I only know about the last archive copy [5], but you'd have to copy&paste and do the formatting manually. The pictures should still exist under their same names. Tom Ruen (talk) 00:47, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:A2 honeycombs

Template:A2 honeycombs has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Ricky81682 (talk) 03:26, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Icosidodecahedron article

   I've made an two edits that reverses part of one of yours. It appears you left a stray word (which i removed), but all i can be sure of is that grammatically it was nonsense. Thus technical review of Icosidodecahedron#Dissection by you would be a (possibly unique) service to the project.
--Jerzy•t 03:05 & 03:24, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

September 2015

Welcome to Wikipedia and thank you for your contributions. I am glad to see that you are discussing a topic. However, as a general rule, talk pages such as Talk:Flower of Life are for discussion related to improving the article, not general discussion about the topic or unrelated topics. If you have specific questions about certain topics, consider visiting our reference desk and asking them there instead of on article talk pages. Thank you. —Farix (t | c) 21:51, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks from Jumpow

I am trying translate Coxeter–Dynkin diagram article on Russian. Article is very difficult, not only in mathematik, but in language too. From 400 translated me articles it is one of the most difficult.

Thank you for your support and comments. Jumpow (talk) 18:46, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm glad you're reading it carefully, and proding me to clarify better. Tom Ruen (talk) 18:52, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Pentagonal tiling

Aperiodic pentagonal tessellation

Hi Tom, apropos of the recent activity on pentagonal tiling, I thought you might be interested in the tiling at File:Exotic pentagonal tiling.png, if you haven't seen the pattern before. I don't particularly propose adding it to the article ... I just uploaded it for interest. Another Matt (talk) 01:51, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

It looks very nice. I copied your comment to the article talk page. I outlined a "base" edge in color, and then colored seemingly 22 radial subtilings. Tom Ruen (talk) 09:45, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Regular heptadecagon construction

"Another construction of the regular heptadecagon" without function! Problem image size? --Petrus3743 (talk) 10:34, 24 October 2015 (UTC)G

I was hoping Wikipedia was being slow computing a rescaling of the animated gif. Tom Ruen (talk) 11:38, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Tridecagon, Construction

Tomruen,
it would be well for the reader if you could improve the arrangement of the two representations yet. These representations include images that can not understand directly the reader! Perhaps you succeed again an arrangement as described in article heptagon (text next to the image)? For now, thank you for your efforts! --Petrus3743 (talk) 12:56, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Okay, I put the layout back as it was. Tom Ruen (talk) 13:12, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Please also see the same thing in Enneadecagon, Construction. Thanks...--Petrus3743 (talk) 13:24, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

all those polygonal symmetries

Very nice pics! Any chance of getting them up for the range {40, 50, 60, 64, 70, 80, 90, 100}? (I think that'd be near the end of it. Apart from {34, 48, 51, 68, 85, 96} there aren't any more constructible polygons with standard names, although {36, 72} have clean whole- or half-degree angles but are not constructible.)

(A mammoth case would be {210}, 2×3×5×7, but I don't think there is a reliable source that names it like the polygons up to {100}, and I suspect that even you would be tired out by it.) Double sharp (talk) 15:10, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

I was thinking of a 360-gon for degrees and it would have 7 subgroups r720, i240, i144, i80, i48, i16, and each of those leads a 11 symmetry graph of index 2 subgroups (like octagon#symmetry graph). I'm leaning to just drawing the Conway names like I did for 60. I added 42 defend by the tiling connection. The 42 graphic took quite a while to try to label symmetry elements and vertex colors on all the polygon. Constructiblity is another point for notability for 32, 64, etc. Tom Ruen (talk) 15:16, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

True, 360 has a lot of factors, though 210 would give 2×3×5×7. I agree that drawing the Conway names would be clearer, but then it looks odd to have {42} but not the smaller {40}.

I added {48, 96} (earlier I added {64}) from Archimedes' pi approximation. Double sharp (talk) 15:35, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

I think that'd be the end of the constructible-polygon additions, because the values for sin(π/n) for n = 34, 51, 68, 85 (derived from the heptadecagon) are ugly, ugly things. If you want to show a case with lots of factors that is still constructible, I'd love {120} (hecatonicosagon? dodecacontagon? we can extrapolate this from Johnson's name for the 120-cell). Then maybe {600} can be considered named from the hexacosichoron. Double sharp (talk) 15:45, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

The additions look good. I'll see about adding more symmetry graphs, whether names-only or with pictures. Also interesting for smaller ones are examples of each symmetry in irregular polygons, like 6 symmetry, 8 symmetry, 12 symmetry. Tom Ruen (talk) 16:18, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Cool! BTW, could you make a picture for {120} with the vertices marked (like File:Regular polygon 100.svg)? I think that'd be the end of it as the other constructible polygons don't really have standard names, or have ugly angles like {34, 51, 68, 85} (and these come about simply from the case of {17}). Also, did you miss {50} when going through the diagrams? Double sharp (talk) 02:39, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

OK, I found {50} and added its diagram and section. Double sharp (talk) 02:42, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

BTW, could we have the star 120-gons? There's only fifteen, so it makes sense to show them all (like we do for {64}). Double sharp (talk) 02:55, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

 Done Double sharp (talk) 12:44, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

I daresay Stella's not too happy with me right now

I tried making a {360/179} prism in Stella. The result was entertaining, but soon afterwards it threw a tantrum and stopped responding. >_< Double sharp (talk) 12:43, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Comparison of the final stellations of polygons for which their number of sides is a superior highly composite number (ignoring {6}, as that just makes a hexagonal prism):

• 
  {12/5}
• 
  {60/29}
• 
  {120/59}
• 
  {360/179}

Double sharp (talk) 12:54, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Looks like we need some more oversampling pixelation on the last one. Tom Ruen (talk) 08:02, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, but it freezes the program, so the most I could do was to take a screenshot. Double sharp (talk) 15:26, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

This made me remember that I forgot you said you were thinking of a 360-gon for degrees, so I added it. Now that should really be it. (Do we have a table somewhere of polygons with integer-degree interior angles?) Double sharp (talk) 12:56, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for adding the symmetries diagram to {360}! Double sharp (talk) 13:26, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm currently using Tyler to make the 47 360-grams and am currently halfway at {360/89}. It sure gives tedium a new meaning! Double sharp (talk) 13:34, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

I could make them in SVG, but don't have my script handy for the moment. Tom Ruen (talk) 13:50, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

It's OK: I'm at {360/119} now and would rather not have my pictures obsoleted before they are even finished! (^_^) They show beautiful moiré patterns and are even more symmetric than the chiliagon (1000 has 16 factors, while 360 has 24). Double sharp (talk) 13:51, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

{360/149} now. I have to see this through to the end at {360/179}! Double sharp (talk) 13:57, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

OK, I've done them all and put them into 360-gon. The size of the 360-gon in the middle should keep decreasing as we increase the denominator. Incidentally I can answer my own question – the only convex regular polygons whose interior angles are a whole number of degrees have n sides, where n is one of the factors of 360, i.e. a member of the set {(1), (2), 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, 12, 15, 18, 20, 24, 30, 36, 40, 45, 60, 72, 90, 120, 180, 360}. Double sharp (talk) 14:31, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

Tyler's regular polygon colour scheme

It seems to repeat every 45 polygons, so {15} and {60} have the same colour. So I put them in a picture: (I went up to {60}, as it may be a little difficult to see the smaller polygons, so it seemed useful to show their colours again with {48} to {60}.) Double sharp (talk) 11:02, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

A nice spiral of polygons. I added SVGs for 120, 360, unsure what else is needed. Tom Ruen (talk) 18:48, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you!

{65537}, {10⁶} would be good to replace the actual circles we currently use, but are probably not doable. Thank you for the SVGs!

Actually I think what Tyler is doing is repeating the colour scheme every 9 polygons, but it gets darker each round, until five lots of 9, i.e. the 45, are complete and we return to the beginning at {48}, with the same colour as {3}. Double sharp (talk) 05:02, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

Flower of Life

Hey there. I see that you did a lot of work on Flower of Life (geometry) after I did the other day. A lot... it looks like hundreds of edits. Ya probably wanna use that 'preview' button! You probably made that a hundred times harder on yourself. And you did rearrange some of my contributions, which is good, because it needs to be demonstrated to be primarily a naturally occuring and long-recognized phenomenon. I see that you're not a deletionist zealot, so I appreciate that. I see that you've listed a lot of sources. Do you happen to know where Flower of Life appears in the book A New Kind of Science and can you show it online? I have searched every way I know, and can't find it there. Also, perhaps you can help to organize the sources you've given in order of WP:RS, ancillary nonfictional mention, artistic work, and fictional work. And then the bottom of the barrel is the weblog or most self-published sources, which can probably be deleted. As someone else noted, even mentions in fiction do establish the cultural notability of the ideas as an ornament or as Drunvalo's ideas. I think we can definitely do this, and the opposition is rational on the surface but is also WP:IDONTLIKEIT. The article totally sucked before, but I just don't understand deletionism, especially when they waste so much effort on it. You can see my comment here. Thank you. — Smuckola(talk) 08:04, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you on your work on this article. I concur: do use fewer edits, testing the changes in the Preview window first, if needed. Zezen (talk) 15:05, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

I see lots of edits is hard to follow. I do use preview, but my mind works better with small incremental changes and evaluation. I do confess I'm lazy about comments explaining what I'm changing and why, should do better there. I'm hopeful the article can be defended, even if more work is needed on sourcing more clearly. Tom Ruen (talk) 17:09, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

@Tomruen and Zezen: I see. Well then you might like to create a draft in a sandbox, and then publish and explain it. :) If you haven't already, I also hope that you can delete all of the weblogs and then organize the sources like I asked. Make sure that ALL new contributions to a contested article are reliably sourced; weblogs can only be added as situational sources if they contain ancillary minor information for an already reliably sourced body. The reason is because you are clearly much smarter about geometry than I am. I know almost nothing about this stuff. I am more of a general copy editor. If I knew a few solid core top level reliable sources, I could probably read them 10 times and synthesize some copy from it. And I am definitely very good at creating citations and formatting. Also see the deletionist brigade at Metatron's Cube. :( thank you very much for everything. — Smuckola(talk) 21:51, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

@Tomruen:You are a scholar and a gentleman, sir. Thank you for your work, because you're teaching me about an interesting subject in the process. Metatron beckons! — Smuckola(talk) 01:01, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

@Tomruen:BTW, regarding your vote about Metatron's Cube, we are voting on the notabiilty of a *subject* (which is a geometrical, ornamental, and historical figure), not on one name. Thank you for your research! — Smuckola(talk) 00:09, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

I'd be happier if we had ANY idea who actually named or defined anything here. I have ZERO reliable sources, reliable not in terms of wikipedia standards, but in terms of better than "someone made something up" and here it is. Tom Ruen (talk) 05:36, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

@Tomruen: I certainly do understand what you mean. But regarding the name, as with "Flower of Life", we do at least have many different printed sources who *utilize* the name "Metatron's Cube", which is significant or nontrivial as far as that goes. So that's something.  :/ — Smuckola(talk) 12:29, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you😊😊😊😊 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.198.98.26 (talk) 00:59, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Hermann–Mauguin notation table

Tom,

I didn't remove the column. I changed it. In principle, the rows of this table correspond to families of Schoenflies notations: Cn, Cnv, Dh, ..., not to the similar HM symbols. Now the first column looks confusing, because most rows contain (or should contain) several HM symbols. For example, row $\mathbf {\tfrac {n}{m}}$ should be $\mathbf {\tfrac {n}{m}}$ or 2n, row $\mathbf {{\tfrac {n}{m}}{\tfrac {2}{m}}{\tfrac {2}{m}}}$ should be $\mathbf {{\tfrac {n}{m}}{\tfrac {2}{m}}{\tfrac {2}{m}}}$ or 2nrm or 2nm2. Last row should be $\mathbf {{\bar {n}}{\tfrac {2}{m}}}$ or $\mathbf {{\bar {n}}2m}$ or $\mathbf {{\bar {n}}m2}$.

I created this table in 2011 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann–Mauguin_notation&type=revision&diff=464296334&oldid=461726101 and I never liked the first column, and only yesterday I realized that actually each row corresponds to families of Schoenflies notations. The second reason, why it is better to use Schoenflies in the first column, because usually people know Schoenflies notation, but do not know HM, so this column will give them quick connection between two symbols.

Right now the first column looks ugly, doesn't have all information (and if we add missing HM notations in the first column, it will look worse), and actually it is redundant, because table already shows HM symbols for different n in each row.

Bor75 (talk) 15:36, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

I think the first column is useful. I prefer to see a summary of the pattern that will follow. I think the Schoenflies addition is good, but there's no reason not to keep both I think. Tom Ruen (talk) 16:36, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

I split the table entries 2 rows top/bottom to help clarify the two series. There's plenty of room for an extra column. Tom Ruen (talk) 16:43, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

I restored the Schoenflies notation column, but its still somewhat of a mess (inconsistent). You can probably clarify better than me. I used this article for comparison: List of spherical symmetry groups. Tom Ruen (talk) 18:39, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you! I will try to clarify tomorrow Bor75 (talk) 22:10, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!

Hi,
You appear to be eligible to vote in the current Arbitration Committee election. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to enact binding solutions for disputes between editors, primarily related to serious behavioural issues that the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the ability to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate, you are welcome to review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. For the Election committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 22:14, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Overlap

Tom, I guess you're planning to cut down the overlap between your new article and the one at AfD? Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:23, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

I moved it back to Flower of Life (geometry), to keep the edit history, so it can be moved to a new name if we decide to keep it. Tom Ruen (talk) 16:24, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Oh, ok. So you think the Melchizedek stuff belongs with the math? I'd have thought the more OR-ish elements needed slimming down if no sources can be found for them. The M. bit is sourced to him, not terribly reliably, but much of the rest doesn't really come from anywhere. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:27, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm not trying to make any executive decisions of inclusion, merely trying to refocus on the general subject and historical usage that Melchizedek attempts to co-opt into his symbolism. So what to do exactly on the propagation of the modern name is open as far as I'm concerned. Tom Ruen (talk) 16:30, 21 December 2015 (UTC)