Talk:Warsaw concentration camp

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Warsaw concentration camp/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Jens Lallensack (talk · contribs) 21:06, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Taking this one. Comments follow soon. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 21:06, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

• on the ruins of the Warsaw Ghetto, on the base of the now nonexistent Gęsiówka prison – The first sentence of the lead seems a bit long due to this, and this also confuses a bit. Not sure what the difference between "on the ruins" and "on the base of" is. Maybe remove one to keep it simple for the first sentence?

There are two separate elements: it functioned in the ruins of the Warsaw Ghetto (its task was to get rid of the rubble of the ghetto after all), and the main building of that camp was Gęsiówka. So there are two different elements that I believe have to be mentioned. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 22:11, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Of course, keeping it is totally ok. I am mostly concerned about Good Article criterion 1: well written. If I stumble above it, others might, too. Could you try to formulate it in a more simple and clear way? Maybe make a separate sentence out of it? Maybe writing "within the ruins of the Warsaw Ghetto" instead of "on the ruins" would make things much clearer already, to show that the camp does not occupy the whole ghetto. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 06:19, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Is it better now? Szmenderowiecki (talk) 10:39, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

• KL Warschau – In German we would definitely use an article, i.e. "the KL Warschau". Why do you use the abbreviation in the first place when "Warsaw concentration camp" seems to be more common?

The usage of the abbreviation is both because Polish sources use it and for stylistical reasons, so as to not repeat "the Warsaw concentration camp" in every sentence, and use synonyms of that name instead. (KZ Warschau is also valid, but I don't really know German, and besides most of the publications about the camp were made in Poland anyway).

For this GA it is ok if you decide to keep it, but: 1) We should use the terminology used in English-language sources since this is the English Wikipedia, and 2) clarity always comes before style. "Use the same word for the same thing" really helps readers with understanding. Because in general, if you use a different name, the reader first has to assume that you mean a different thing. I feel that intermittently switching to this non-English abbreviation is challenging to the reader and adds unnecessary complexity. It makes the article less accessible to people. From my experience, in such situations we in Wikipedia normally would abbreviate with "the concentration camp" or simply "the camp" to avoid repetition when it is clear from the context that this particular camp is meant. But I think other articles do generally not switch to completely different names. For example, Auschwitz concentration camp, which is already GA, does not do this. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 06:19, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

This is why in the very first sentence KL Warschau is explicitly mentioned as an alternative name from German, and there is a link to "see other names", where all relevant names are bolded. The very first version of the expanded articles included all names, for both Nazi and Communist camp, though ultimately the Communist names were moved to the section about the Communist camp. The ones most used in reference to the camp are Gęsiówka and KL/KZ Warschau (depends on language). I think I also used the suggested rephrasings (see The camp and adjacent ruins were also used by the German administration as a place of execution and About 380 SS officers were maintaining the concentration camp, approximately the size of a company). As for the frequency of usage, the piece by Christopher Davies uses it, so does [1] this one. Some others (e.g. Gabriel Finder) use Gęsiówka as a shorthand. Others still use the full name, in particular when referring to the Wikipedia error/hoax that persisted for 15 years. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 10:39, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

As for the article "the", I assume that in English, we wouldn't use it. See this piece for reference.

• OK, I was just wondering. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 06:19, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

• Supporters of the Trzcińska's theory – not sure, should it be without the "the" or "Trzcińska theory"? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 21:32, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

It's fine as it is. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 22:11, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

It was the only German camp to be liberated by anti-Nazi resistance forces rather than by Allied troops -->[2]

Where did you get this from Szmenderowiecki?

@ GizzyCatBella🍁 14:27, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

[3] [4], refs 46 and 72 in the article. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 14:37, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

That might not be correct data. This force also liberated a camp in Czechoslovakia [5] - GizzyCatBella🍁 14:56, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

I've added an explanatory footnote to that effect. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 17:45, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

The information here[6] is on pages 242-243. Your range is 221-274 [7]. - GizzyCatBella🍁 18:44, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

• These new camps were also intended to host Jewish labourers, – the first paragraph of "creation" confuses me, because the formulations suggest that the camp already existed; later in that paragraph we learn that they actually have not been established yet. In the letter dated 9 October, did Himmler mention a planned camp? Reformulate to avoid this confusion?

  The problem is, a concentration camp already existed in Lublin (Majdanek), but not in Warsaw, so I can't call both to be planned. But I have made some tweaks, let's see if this is any better. Also, I've added a ref containing the original order.

• inside a closed and deserted zone of the former ghetto, which was surrounded – I wasn't sure if "which" referres to the ghetto or the deserted zone. I think the former? Maybe write "of the former ghetto that was surrounded" to make it clearer?

  The ghetto was itself a deserted zone, no part of the ghetto survived (treat "deserted zone" as an adjective). I don't think clarification is needed.

• but the whole process was only completed in June 1944 because the inmates had had to undergo quarantine the previous month – I don't follow here; what has the quarantine to do with the camp's completion?
• Is there any more specific article to link quarantine too, or could an explanation be added?

• There isn't any other link for quarantine, but I drew from the other section to explain that there were two quarantines (as written by Berenstein et al.). Better?

• The number of SS guards – Is this the same as "SS officer"? If so, please stick with one term, because here I am really not sure. If not, then we want to know the number of SS guards, I think.

  An officer in military terms is a higher-ranked official; not all members of the military are therefore military officers. Guards are just that, guards (though this does not mean there hasn't been any sort of cruelty from them, quite the contrary).

• The original SS unit, was gathered from various other camps – comma does not belong here I think

• Indeed.

• As Bogusław Kopka shows – why is this name relevant here? We need author attribution if this is an opinion or a controversial fact, but that doesn't seem to be the case?

• There is disagreement between Kopka and IPN's prosecutors' summary. That's why I mention his name, and I've moved the IPN's opinion out of a footnote and into the main text

• The irregularities were so numerous that SS authorities eventually intervened,[47] presumably due to an escape of a Reichsdeutsche prisoner.[9] – This somehow contradicts itself. Did they intervene because of the escape or because of the numerous irregularities?

• I made it more clear that there was some action after which the Germans could bear no more of that corruption bull----, which apparently was an escape of a German prisoner, or so Andreas Mix says.

• the kapos were Germans – "kapos" does not seem to be explained anywhere. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 22:15, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

• "They became prisoner functionaries, such as kapos and Blockältester (block supervisors)" (mentioned a paragraph or two later). I've wikilinked the first mention of kapo.
• Please ping me when you see any further suggestions/problems. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 12:53, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

• July 1943;[23][30] Among – I suggest a full stop here (or "among" in lower case)
• dollars),[24] however, – needs a ; behind "dollars)"? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 13:53, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

  @Szmenderowiecki I still have an issue with using this -->[8] as a source (or any reference to it), if that is to be a GA article. I don’t think you need to be provided the history behind it, do you? - GizzyCatBella🍁 17:07, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

  This has been discussed here and it was determined to be OK as a source mentioned in the footnote, as it is at the present stage. If you want to relitigate that closure, you have the closure review. Otherwise, I'm not acting on this request. Enough of spilt electonic ink and wasted time. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 17:18, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

  Yes, and what the closing person say? there is --> consensus that the Haaretz article used as a source for the footnote is reliable But you using it as a source of information within the article[9]. See also this again -->[10]. If that is to be a GA you need to pay attention to things like that to avoid potential future issues. There is a sufficient amount of quality sources available, we don’t need to use this to source anything. - GizzyCatBella🍁 17:31, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

  You may also reconsider using YouTube as a source -->[11],[12] again, see sourcing expectations for this topic area. - GizzyCatBella🍁 17:41, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

  First, the article in the place you point to is used to refer to the opinions of two scholars interviewed for the piece, Jan Grabowski and Havi Dreifuss, and no one seemed to have any problem with this particular usage of that source. The problem you and a few other editors had is essentially with describing the inclusion of the footnote saying this article misled the public for X years and in particular with the quote "the longest-standing hoax" as giving credence to Icewhiz/feeding the troll, and it was the footnote that the RfC was addressing, not quoting subject-matter experts. Plus, the source has been judged to have consensus to pass WP:APLRS requirements. You should be aware of that closure because you were the one who initially challenged the source, and I'm puzzled by your insistence to ignore it, and I urge you not to continue going that way.

  As for the YouTube videos, as you might read from the relevant WP:RSP entry, Content uploaded from a verified official account, such as that of a news organization, may be treated as originating from the uploader and therefore inheriting their level of reliability. One of the videos refers to the an interview with Gideon Greif, a subject-matter expert. The other is a France 24 report about the controversy, which: in the first usage is one among three sources, in the second usage paraphrases Zygmunt Walkowski, who made a report that refuted the extermination camp theory based on aerial photography evidence, and a third usage which sources an uncontroversial fact (where Trzcińska's supporters gather).

  There are no potential issues with these sources. I ask the original reviewer to disregard the comments. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 20:35, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

  I entirely disagree with everything you wrote. You may start from contacting one of these editors for assistance and advice. I’ll also follow with more soon. - GizzyCatBella🍁 20:42, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

  Waiting for the "more soon". As for now, I will only remind you that if your point is to effectively overturn that RfC by stalling out the GA review, this won't work. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 05:44, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

  What on earth are you talking about Szmenderowiecki ? - GizzyCatBella🍁 06:02, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

  To add my two cents here: 1) I don't think that sources for article text must follow higher standards than sources for footnotes; at least I am not aware of any policy here. If this Haaretz article is reliable in a footnote, it should be in the main article too. 2) Youtube is not a reliable source, but in this case, the source is France 24. Again, I see no issue. Jens Lallensack (talk) 07:31, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

  @Jens Lallensack I understand and respect what you think, but, there were lengthy conversations (prular) about it with numerous users. It has been decided that the article based on the narrative of a globally banned Wikipiedian is not the best source to use, but it might be used in a footnote only --> consensus that the Haaretz article used as a source for the footnote is reliable. If that is going to be a GA article, that source needs to go from here to make sure the article is stable. Multiple other sources could be used, we don’t need to set up this maybe soon GA article for likely issues right from the start. - GizzyCatBella🍁 14:01, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

  @Jens Lallensack - Similar but perhaps less severe applies to YouTube as a source for this topic area, please read this. Text referenced might be challenged at any-time (based on the Arbcom's ruling) and the reference with text removed. Please address those issues. - GizzyCatBella🍁 14:11, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

  I still don't see it – could you provide a quote where the RfC discussion states "it might be used in a footnote only"? The article cites the source in a different context as far as I see. Regarding the other point, are you arguing that France 24 is not a reliable source? Jens Lallensack (talk) 14:38, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

  Please read the entire RfC and ArbCom ruling. As of now, these sources can’t be freely used. For Haaretz (that particular article) consensus has been already established - reliable if used as a source for the footnote. Otherwise unreliable. YouTube is not (read ArbCom ruling again) an article in peer-reviewed scholarly journals, an academically focused book by a reputable publisher, and/or an article published by a reputable institution and will be eventually challenged. For a GA article, we can’t have those here. That’s all from me for now. If you want to pass this, please address those issues. - GizzyCatBella🍁 15:02, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

  Sorry but this does not answer my question. As far as I see, the RfC merely covers the use of the source for this footnote, but does not exclude its use elsewhere in other contexts. And again, and as pointed out below, Youtube is not used as a source here; the source is France 24. I therefore at the moment don't see that these points go against the GA criteria. Jens Lallensack (talk) 16:05, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

  Disagree, as to your interpretation of RfC and ArbCom ruling. Is France24 YouTube video an article in peer-reviewed scholarly journals, an academically focused book by a reputable publisher, and/or an article published by a reputable institution? -->[13] I didn’t think so. Did you verify what YouTube France24 and the other YouTube video in Hebrew say? If so, how?

  You will need to get a clarification from ArbCom then. - GizzyCatBella🍁 16:11, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

  I only see one YouTube video, and why do I need to verify that? If you are correct that the France24 source may be challenged, this would, at worst, result in the removal of a single sentence. This does not really seem too relevant for the GA criterion "stable". But enough now. Jens Lallensack (talk) 16:37, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

  @Jens Lallensack So you reviewed this article without source verification? You actually didn’t check if the text is backed by sources, text is not a copy right violation or for plagiarism? Could you clarify this for me. Thanks - GizzyCatBella🍁 16:56, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Also Jens Lallensack - Do you realize that if any source and especially non-scholarly source (as those I pointed out) is removed from this particular article, it can not be reinstated without the established consensus? Now - before I roll further, please clarify to me why do you believe it is an acceptable idea to support these questionable referenced in a GA article, despite having multiple other sources available? Arguable sources might be a potential seed of concerns, removed at any time, making this article unstable. Could you please elaborate on this one as well? Thanks. - GizzyCatBella🍁 17:01, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia:Good article criteria: Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. – I don't see the danger for such edit wars here, and the potential removal of one sentence or two (which are only side notes in any case) is a minor issue and not that significant. My personal judgement as reviewer still is that these sources at least meat WP:RS and are used to source relatively uncontroversial information. So I think these issues are not severe enough to fail the GAN, but if these sources can be replaced with better ones, as you say, then, of course, that would be an improvement to the article. Waiting for the author for input on this; I will be away for a few days now. Jens Lallensack (talk) 19:24, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Shall we remove them now ? - GizzyCatBella🍁 19:29, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

• by lack of food parcels, as these were not delivered to the camp – this somehow implies that no food parcels were delivered to the camp, which is seemingly in contradiction to "Prisoners' food rationing was meagre", which implies that at least some food arrived at the camp via official ways?
• During KL Warschau's existence – since you already state "In 1943–1944", this seems to be redundant.
• The members of the Sonderkommando were often murdered – no explanation what "Sonderkommando" is. Should be mentioned when introducing "death detachment", or replaced with that word.
• who wrote the foreword to Kopka's work – this seems to be not relevant to the topic
• A total of 3,954 prisoners eventually arrived at the Dachau concentration camp on 6 August,[29] of which there were only 280 Jews – this contradicts at at least 7,250 prisoners, all but 300 of whom were Jews
• head of the Diversionary Brigade Broda 53 [pl] – needs comma at the end
• In light of the new evidence, – what new evidence?
• I am surprised that the "POLIN Museum of the History of Polish Jews" is not mentioned under "Commemoration", while the plaques are discussed in detail?
• @Szmenderowiecki: That is everything from me, a fine article. And apologies for the delay. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 07:26, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

  Note - some issues still remain unresolved. See conversation above this. - GizzyCatBella🍁 17:46, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

  I made the changes requested, though some were not strictly needed. In the camps, food parcels normally refer to what you'd get from the outside (relatives or friends), not from the camp. Also, the point 5 relies on the misquotation, as it also said "who originally came from Greece", implying that 280 Greek Jews survived, not that all of the 280 Jews who were transported among almost 4,000 prisoners were Greek.

  As for the last comment, Jan Żaryn says he was threatened to have his job taken away for suggesting that the museum is built partially on the camp's territory, and Kopka also claims that historians conspired not to talk about it. There are no rebuttals I am aware of. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 19:33, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

• (I come after seeing this issue at WP:AE). I would strongly suggest to simply remove this source from the page, and do not keep it even in footnote. This is simply because this is controversial source which inclusion did cause objections of many contributors during the previous RfC - for a number of reasons they explain. The removal of this source definitely will not make this page worse. Whatever has been previously decided in the RfC is irrelevant for the purpose of this discussion, because a number of changes may be needed to make this page a GA, and this is possibly one of them. My very best wishes (talk) 21:27, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

  @Szmenderowiecki - in light of the comment above, are you willing to compromise for the sake of stability of GA article?

  PS - There are also two YouTube sources I've noted before that retain real possibility of being contested and removed (by somebody else Szmenderowiecki) and destabilize the article.

  • This one - [14] in Hebrew, which is hard to verify
  • and especially these cuts and pieces -->[15] of recorded material put together by France24.

  The last one, in my humble opinion, unquestionably doesn't fulfill sources expectation for this uneasy topic area. First one, the YouTube video in Hebrew, might need translation, verification and possibly consensus to include. I’m not sure if it’s worth the effort since the section Discredited extermination camp story that the source resides might be already too long and WP:UNDUE - GizzyCatBella🍁 06:14, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

  OK, let's begin one-by-one.

  That RfC was acrimonious indeed, but the close says what it says. I am within my right, based on the conclusion that RfC, to keep it - it fulfills all necessary criteria (RS, DUE in the footnote and verifiable), and I believe that source enhances the article, partially because that article made headlines for this precise reason (my Google search of "Warsaw concentration camp" (in quotes) puts the Times of Israel piece on number 4 link, and Haaretz on the top of page 2). You might believe that using it is not OK, but you had the occasion to express yourselves, which you've used to the full, and according to that evaluation of consensus, your concerns did not outweigh the arguments on the other side.

  This is not the venue to relitigate the closure. The less onerous option is Closure review, or else, if still unsatisfied, you may try to raise new arguments in a new discussion, though I advise to do this wisely so that it does not descend to the shitshow that RfC was. It might well be that the closure was wrong in light of those arguments, in which case I will comply with whatever new decision comes out, if any. You have to be wary of WP:FORUMSHOPPING, though.

  are you willing to compromise for the sake of stability of GA article - what is this? I mean, you have vehemently denied that the idea is to derail the GA review, and now you threaten that this will be done. This is not an offer of compromise, this is an attempt to impose your opinions. Try some other formulation please. I mean, like, start like you did with Holysov. That was a constructive way forward.

  As for YouTube videos, my point is very simple for both.

  For the first one, just because the interview is in Hebrew does not mean that it is unusable, it means you have to translate Hebrew into English (same for German, Polish and French, which are used in the article). Google speech recognition google translate suggested that the quote was probably correctly cited, even if the translation itself was rubbish, but to alleviate your concerns, I have contacted Deborahjay to aid in the translation.

  For the second one, well, it might be news for you but public television reports are usually "cuts and pieces"; this doesn't mean this is unreliable as such. Biased, well, probably, but how does that impact reliability? Or in the three instances where this is quoted, how is this not enough for you?

  As for WP:UNDUE size of the extermination camp section, I write in proportion of the sources' coverage so that the article is comprehensive. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 17:33, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

  @Szmenderowiecki I'll dispatch you a photo that perhaps could be used here and might help. The text is in the pre-WW2 Polish language, but it may clarify something. I want to learn what are your thoughts. You do speak Polish, correct? Or should I translate it to English, if you are an English speaker. I can do that quite easily. - GizzyCatBella🍁 00:27, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

  No, no, you needn't translate it (at least for me), send the original captions. Waiting for the photo. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 07:55, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

• Another thing. While reviewing sources, I’ve noticed that some are positioned in the middle of the sentence. They should be placed at the end of the sentence. Am I correct? I’ll fix that but please confirm first. - GizzyCatBella🍁 06:41, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

  Purely a point of style preference. WP:CS for example includes a mid-sentence example of a citation, so does WP:NFN and WP:CITEX. Given previous challenges implying OR when I put refs in the end and each supported only part of the sentence, I prefer to put them the closest possible. I don't think that's much to make a fuss about. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 17:38, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

• The problematic and prone to potential issues is category Pseudohistory the article is listed under. This was is a conspiracy theory, not a pseudohistory. You might consider removing that cat. - GizzyCatBella🍁 06:54, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

One does not exclude the other. Pseudohistory is a form of pseudoscholarship that attempts to distort or misrepresent the historical record, often by employing methods resembling those used in scholarly historical research. Trzcińska's book certainly qualifies under this description. Distorts the historical record? Check. Misrepresents it? Check. Did the author try to pass off the book as a work of scholarship, using her position as a judge in the specialised commission? Yes. The camp itself is not in the pseudohistory realm, but the 200K claim is.

• In the section called Name, there is an overuse of bolded text, I believe. - GizzyCatBella🍁 06:59, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

  Will be remedied.

• This source [16] used to reference The former military prison and Judenrat seat, at what is today Karmelicka Street [pl] 17a, served as a crematorium, where bodies of dead inmates and executed civilians from outside the camp were incinerated that quotes an opinion of an expert in the investigation conducted by the Institute of National Remembrance says: Polish --> Jak ustalili prokuratorzy, Niemcy dokonywali tam masowych egzekucji, m.in. więźniów Pawiaka. Nie wiadomo jednak, ile osób więziono w obozie oraz ile zamordowano. English --> According to the prosecutors, the Germans carried out mass executions there, incl. Pawiak prisoners. However, it is not known how many people were imprisoned in the camp and how many were murdered.

What should we do with that data Szmenderowiecki? You have number of victims that ranges from 4000 to 20,000. What about this investigation that claims the number of victims is unknown? Do you have access to the original IPN documents to double check that claim? I’l try to look for it if you don’t. - GizzyCatBella🍁 07:29, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

There are three estimates in the article (Kopka, Finder and Hungarian researchers), the latter two of which refer to the metric the IPN prosecutors speak of (number of dead prisoners, by Finder and the Hungarians), and two of them also provide an estimate for the number of prisoners (Kopka, also from IPN btw and Finder). My view is that if the prosecutors couldn't independently come with some sort of estimate (because we already have several), then we can ignore the fact they didn't come up with one. This also suggests that IPN did not coordinate efforts with Kopka for whatever reason, but that's another story.

As a side question - why is this Rzeczpospolita article is OK to use when quoting an expert (IPN's prosecutors, in this case), while France24 or Haaretz aren't, hum?

• This reference of the Bulletin of the Jewish Historical Institute -->[17] has page range shown 3-22. Basically, all pages. What are the actual page numbers in that reference that support the text? You used that reference 9 times.

For example last page, 22, contains the below text only:

Polish --> egzekucjami oraz wreszcie - zacieranie śladów zbrodni dokonanej na kilkutysiecznej ludnosci żydowskiej getta warszawskiego. Kiedy w dn. 17 stycznia 1945 r. Warszawa zostala wyzwolona spod okupacji niemieckiej, jej teren był dokladnie przetrzasnietym ogromnym rumowiskiem, w którego ruinach przetrwali ukrywajac sie pojedynczy ludzie.

English --> executions, and finally - covering up the traces of a crime committed on several thousandJewish population of the Warsaw Ghetto. When on January 17, 1945, Warsaw was liberated from the German occupation, its territory was a thoroughly shattered huge pile of debris in whose ruins survived hiding single people.

There is no such information in any of the sentences referenced to page 22 of that publication, (as far as I can see) but you give page 22 in your reference. Please address that issue and list the actual pages you are referencing text to. Quotes would be nice to have also, but this is not critical if a proper page is assigned to each claim. - GizzyCatBella🍁 11:45, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

This isn't a very big point. I pointed at a range of pages where this work is located in general as a whole and the Polish text is searchable. For me, the question of pointing pages within scholarly articles isn't that of principle, because they normally are rather small. But I will do that if you so wish. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 18:25, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Note:

• 24 June 2022 AE filing directly related to this GA assessment - GizzyCatBella🍁 00:25, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Closing note – After much controversy, including an ARF, it seems that sufficient time has passed to bring this one to an end. Above concerns of user:GizzyCatBella notwithstanding, I observe that they 1) are not currently resolvable due to differing opinions, and 2) are minor issues affecting not more than on or two sentences, respectively. All in all, I access this article to be GA, and will promote now. Congratulations to the user:Szmenderowiecki for the efforts. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 15:02, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

@Jens Lallensack I object to that per my notes above. There are issues of You-Tube videos used as a source you never verified (see my prior comments) - GizzyCatBella🍁 15:07, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

@Jens Lallensack What does this video say? You should check that. What does it say? - GizzyCatBella🍁 15:09, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

@Jens Lallensack You need to remove the sources you can’t verified before promoting. Please don’t ignore that by saying it’s minor. This is not minor. - GizzyCatBella🍁 15:13, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Read this again. - GizzyCatBella🍁 15:18, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

@Jens Lallensack Please translate (word by word) the entire video used as a source and post text below. - GizzyCatBella🍁 15:20, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, but this is end of discussion from my side. My decision here stands. Jens Lallensack (talk) 15:48, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

@Jens Lallensack Are you okay with me removing from the article the sources you never verified? Yes or No. - GizzyCatBella🍁 16:00, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

This is not for me to decide. Since the author argued against your suggestions, you would either seek his consent or you need to establish consensus on the talk page first if you like to change the status quo, I believe. Jens Lallensack (talk) 16:12, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

@Jens Lallensack I really have an issue with that. You are the one who knowingly promoted this article to the GA status despite unverified sources and now you say it’s not up to you? I’ll address this elsewhere, I have no other option I think. Thanks. - GizzyCatBella🍁 18:03, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

We already had an arbcom on this. Please do us a favour and let go of it. Unwatching now. Jens Lallensack (talk) 18:14, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Request for translation help

Note: This entire section was originally a discussion conducted on User talk:Deborahjay#Request for translation help between June 25 and June 27, 2022. It belongs here on the article page.

This video features an interview with Gideon Greif, a historian of the Holocaust, but I don't know Hebrew. Based on your knowledge of the language, does the historian say that the Warsaw concentration camp narrative about 200K dead Poles is "fake history" or something similar; if not, what is the descriptor he uses for that story? Unfortunately, Google speech-to-text recognition did not really work out, and without the knowledge of the language, I seem to have no other option. Thanks in advance for the help. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 16:37, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

@Szmenderowiecki if you don’t know Hebrew how did you know what that source say, who is being interviewed and why did you use it to source the text ? - GizzyCatBella🍁 20:08, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

The source's inclusion is longstanding and can be tracked to this revision by Francois Robere, October 2019; Piotrus has briefly removed the source as "non-English" and then put the "citation needed" template on Greif. Also, even with the rubbish translation, it was fairly evident that Gideon Greif was critical of the Polish government (that led by the Law and Justice, to be exact). So the question is what exactly he said. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 20:57, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

But how do you know who is in the video. The original entry had 2 sources, this one [18] then the video [19] booth were referenced to three people --> Havi Dreifuss, Jan Grabowski and Gideon Greif. How do you know it is Greif in the video not Dreifuss? - GizzyCatBella🍁 21:30, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

The speech recognition software is not as dumb as not being able to recognise "Havi Dreifuss" from "Gideon Greif", come on. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 21:42, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Here is the diff [20] where you, on November 14, 2021, reinstated the Hebrew video as a source next to the Gideon Greif. So you didn't understand what the video actually says because you don't speak Hebrew but you entered the source anyway. You used speech recognition software and you only identify that this is Gideon Greif talking on the video. Correct? Please confirm or elaborate further. - GizzyCatBella🍁 22:00, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

I reverted Piotrus (or rather, reinstated from the old version of the article I was basing on, together with the Polish version of the article, which was the basis of expansion by translation), because the only reason he proposed for deleting the video was because it was in Hebrew - he did not assert any problems with that video other than he couldn't understand it. I trusted whoever first introduced that video that the inclusion was correct (I now checked that it was François Robere - please explain yourself). Nothing sinister. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 18:01, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

@Szmenderowiecki Your edit wasn't a revert. You constructed your own modification using some material from prior versions, and some that it looks to me Polish Wikipedia translation. You recorded in your edit summary --> Quote:

Expanded extermination camp section, omitting the disputed footnote 2 sources from Zezza, one from some Hungarian historians, a book on the Warsaw uprising (Frantic 7), a book on the post-truth history (History in a Post-Truth world) mentioning the bogus plaques on KL Warschau

You are fully responsible for that edit and the sources you used. That's it from me here. - GizzyCatBella🍁 20:11, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

@Deborahjay - Direct link to the above conversation is used in this AE report. Please don't archive for now. Thank you. - GizzyCatBella🍁 08:06, 27 June 2022 (UTC) -- Deborahjay (talk) 13:44, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 May 2024

Change conspiracy theory to theory and add clarification that 200’000 is the largest estimate given for gas chamber deaths, as well as adding different sources for the historiography surrounding the camp, such as Norman Davies’ Rising ’44 discussion and so forth.

The tone of this part is uncharacteristically and unnecessarily hostile and apparently reflects an editing conflict in which a bellicose accusation is implicitly made against another side, attempting to make the other ‘side’ as unacceptable as possible.

People should be extra careful when they feel the need to do so, especially when they have the power to do so, to make sure they’re not taking advantage of it.

This doesn’t require one to even change the overall conclusion.

The point is, if one is making the claim that a claim isn’t made with proper basis, one should adhere to a higher standard. One should try to be charitable towards others and their attempts if one can. I believe that there is a measure of unbridled hostility towards others here, which is very dangerous when given power. It seems like its goal is to get a “win” and attempt to discredit others, which is a temptation people should avoid if possible.

The idea that it is a “conspiracy theory” is somewhat spurious, no “conspiracy” is stated which would be required for it.

The highest claim for dead at a subcamp was 200’000 total.

The post, given discourse around it seems ideologically hostile. I’ve seen people even call it a “hoax” (!) which is incredibly disrespectful.

London Review of Books is the only source given.

Norman Davies noted discourse around the damp in Rising ’44.

https://x.com/Pusher555/status/1124039866512289793/photo/3

The language is definitely bellicose or hostile, treating the person as an enemy not even someone wrong. That does not fit the bar for discourse that this demands. 2A02:A310:E23F:400:8C39:3F2B:51BC:9D42 (talk) 05:21, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

X.com? Slatersteven (talk) 09:06, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: X/Twitter is not a reliable source. (WP:TWITTER). '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk • contribs) 04:06, 1 June 2024 (UTC)