Talk:Shioli Kutsuna

Requested move 7 June 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Not moved. See general agreement in this debate to hold off changing the spelling of this subject's given name. If reliable secondary sources can be found that predominately use the proposed spelling, then there is no prejudice toward a further attempt to garner consensus for the spelling change. Have a Great Day and Happy Publishing! (nac by page mover)  Paine Ellsworth  ^put'r there  21:46, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

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Shiori Kutsuna → Shioli Kutsuna – This page is titled "Shiori Kutsuna" and begins with "Shiori Kutsuna ..., sometimes spelled as Shioli Kutsuna", however, the use of "Shioli" seems to be far more prevalent. This spelling is used in her agency's profile page for her (linked as Official Website at the bottom of the article), and she was credited with this spelling in her two most recent films (Deadpool 2 and The Outsider) and surely more. This spelling has been used in her calendars and photobooks dating least as far back as 2010. It seems clear to me that "Shioli Kutsuna" is the preferred spelling, and using this spelling would be consistent with the page for Sola Aoi, another Japanese public figure who romanizes the Japanese R in her name as L. JLRishe (talk) 16:29, 7 June 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. Dekimasuよ! 20:37, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose – "Shiori" is the correct Japanese romanization. — JFG ^talk 15:41, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

The standard Japanese romanization is not the only relevant factor. Per the style manual on Japanese names, "Use the form personally or professionally used by the person, if available in the English/Latin alphabet (this can include the spelling appearing on their official website or official social media profile)" I believe based on that alone, it is clear that the correct spelling to use is "Shioli". Additionally, WP:STAGENAME states, "The name used most often to refer to a person in reliable sources is generally the one that should be used as the article title, even if it is not the person's 'real' name." She uses the "Shioli" spelling universally throughout her film career, print media, and social media. I see no reason why her page title should follow a strict romanization of her Japanese name when she clearly favors the "Shioli" spelling. For comparison, please see the related discussion on Sola Aoi's page where it was ultimately concluded that it would use the spelling with L, not R. JLRishe 20:07, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose – "Shiori" is the correct Japanese romanization, and the WP:JAPAN standard. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:22, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

What part of WP:JAPAN are you talking about? I see nothing there pertaining to this. And as I have already pointed out, WP:Manual_of_Style clearly states that the spelling used professionally by the person in question is the one that should be used. Lots of people opposing this move without providing any real substantiation whatsoever or addressing any of the points I have made. If, as you and JFG suggest, the "correct" romanization is the title to use, then we would have to rename the Mazda page to "Matsuda" and Godzilla to "Gojira". JLRishe (talk) 04:45, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

• Go with WP:RS ("Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources..." [my emphasis]). I don't buy the WP:JAPAN/Romanization arguments, but the article's sources almost all use "Shiori". Deadpool 2 seems to be changing usage but it's not my job to marshal evidence to support a title change. —  AjaxSmack  16:00, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Most of the article's references are either in Japanese (and don't show her name in romanized form) or are from amateurish blog/news sites that might not know the official spelling (and probably wouldn't meet WP:RS's criteria for fact-checking and accuracy as regards the spelling of her name). But three of the article's four external links render her name as Shioli:

* Her talent agency's profile page for her

* Her official instagram account

* Her IMDB page

I'm not 100% which of these would qualify as being third-party sources, but I believe that at least IMDB would fit that bill. And I'm not entirely sure that the third-party distinction is relevant here since (again) WP:Manual_of_Style indicates that name usage should be based on the name used professionally by the person in question, and her official profile and instagram page would be two of the best indicators of this.

I would consider all of these to be more reliable authorities on the spelling of her name compared to the article's English-language references and I think they are quite compelling all on their own. There is considerable evidence aside from these as well dating back for the better part of a decade:

* Deadpool 2 end credits and a multitude of sources about the movie

* The Outsider official trailer

* Official Calendars - 2011 2012 2013

* Official Photobook (Published in 2010)

JLRishe (talk) 17:10, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Most of what you have presented are primary sources (emanating from the subject herself) or tertiary sources (e.g. IMDb). Wikipedia prefers secondary sources. See WP:PSTS for details. —  AjaxSmack  01:50, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

I understand that, but what if no such suitable source exists? Should the incorrect title be left as it is when there is overwhelming evidence of what the correct title should be? The policy you linked to said that primary sources can be used for straightforward, easily verifiable facts: "A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge." Prior to the release of Deadpool 2 (at which point lots of secondary sources started using her "Shioli Kutsuna" name), she was not in the English-language mainstream and article writers did not generally do the research to determine the preferred romanization of her name. So I can dig up a whole wealth of articles about Deadpool that use "Shioli Kutsuna" but based on your prior statement, it seems you wouldn't consider Deadpool 2 articles to be sufficient on their own. JLRishe (talk) 06:37, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

If no such sources exist, the subject might not be notable. I would not disqualify post-Deadpool 2 sources; a nomination such as this should include them. And, as you may have noticed, I do not oppose a move. —  AjaxSmack  15:43, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

I apologize for misunderstanding your prior comment. There is a wealth of press coverage about Deadpool 2 that use the Shioli spelling. Most of the following are from what I would consider reliable sources. Would these qualify?

• MPAA article about her casting in Deadpool 2 [1]
• Deadline Hollywood article: [2]
• The Japan Times: two 2016 articles by two different writers about her 2016 movie: [3] [4]
• CBR.com article about her joining Deadpool 2 cast: [5]
• Billboard article about her role in Deadpool 2: [6]
• Consequence of Sound article about Deadpool 2: [7]

JLRishe (talk) 09:34, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Australian or Japanese

The categories show Kutsuna as Australian, however, the lead shows her as Japanese. --Christian140 (talk) 06:53, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

This problem seems to have been fixed, with the current categories showing both Japanese and Australian. Incidentally Japan does not operate dual nationality, I'm not sure about Australia. So she may be one or the other. Blocsrich (talk) 08:55, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 21 June 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved per discussion (non-admin closure) (talk) 22:53, 28 June 2022 (UTC) Spekkios (talk) 22:53, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

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Shiori Kutsuna → Shioli Kutsuna – This individual, an Australian and a native speaker of English, very clearly spells her name "Shioli". See https://www.instagram.com/shiolikutsuna/. All of her film credits spell her name as "Shioli". See the previous discussion for heaps of evidence that she's been billed as "Shioli" since the start of her career around 2010 and presumably was registered under this name at birth. MOS:Japan is basically irrelevant here. Blocsrich (talk) 10:31, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

The amount of evidence that this is how she spells her name is overwhelming:

• Shioli Kutsuna's close encounter at Japan Times
• Shioli Kutsuna at "Zero the mag"
• Shioli Kutsuna in "The Outsider" trailer
• Shioli Kutsuna in "The Outsider" at Netflix
• Shioli Kutsuna in "Sanctuary" at Netflix

It's very unclear why the previous request to move this was refused. Blocsrich (talk) 05:20, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

• Support. Lots of English-language media use this spelling, including The Japan Times and even Vogue. lullabying (talk) 23:47, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
• Both the article and the Japanese Wikipedia list her nationality as Japanese, so I don't see any evidence that WP:MOS-JP is irrelevant, but WP:MOS-JP#Modern names also seems to indicate the proposed title would be fine. Dekimasuよ! 06:43, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Would Wikipedia re-spell the name of an Australian woman called "Sheila" as "Sheira" if she was of Japanese origin on the basis of MOS:Japan? Shioli was born in Australia, you may confirm easily that she is a native speaker of English, and we have overwhelming evidence that she spells her name as "Shioli". I don't see how MOS:Japan is useful in deciding what to call her. Blocsrich (talk) 07:51, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

I didn't say anything about origin, and apparently she is bilingual. If you are asking me whether I would say she has an "Australian name", I think it is neither here nor there. I simply noted that the proposal says she "presumably was registered under this name at birth", but she would not have been registered that way if she is a Japanese national, and WP:MOS-JP gives a guideline for how to write "Japanese names" which agrees with the proposed change. The hypothetical non-Japanese woman of Japanese origin would probably have her name treated as a foreign name if she were not of Japanese nationality (see Shelly (model)), but again that would almost always coincide with the guidance in WP:MOS-JP anyway: "Use the form personally or professionally used by the person, if available in the English/Latin alphabet". Dekimasuよ! 10:02, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Could someone now move the article please? Thanks! Blocsrich (talk) 23:28, 28 June 2022 (UTC)