Talk:Schengen Area

Split article about Bulgaria and Romania

Hello, I am pretty sure no country's accession has been as complicated and politicized as that of Bulgaria and Romania. This has been a controversial topic for a decade already as several countries, primarily the Netherlands, vetoed their accession. It has required heavy negotiation between many political bodies and has affected the domestic politics in Bulgaria, Romania and Austria specially. For example, in Austria, the conservative government is under pressure of applying more restrictive measures against migration, which affects this issue [1]. From Romania there were even threats of sueing Austria [2], as well as threats of ending gas projects with Austrian companies [3]. It has also erupted distrust and hate between inhabitants of these countries [4] [5]. There were also theories of Austria blocking both to favor Russia [6]. I think there's a lot to write about. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 14:22, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree that a separate page is needed, because the main one is already over populated and definitely (and personally sadly) it is going to have further developments down the road in 2024, possibly in 2025. Naskox (talk) 19:09, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Also agree a page is warranted. I don't think that the current content is necessarily overdone, but as stated there is a lot to write about that would be overdone here. CMD (talk) 08:10, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it makes sense. Super Dromaeosaurus, since you have almost started it anyway, consider yourself volunteered to make it happen. WP:BEBOLD. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 12:04, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose Better trim out the Ro-Bg section and make it look as they are "partially joined" in the Schenghen area. Alexceltare2 (talk) 07:22, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Any appetite to simply merge this information into 2007 enlargement of the European Union? I don't know if a separate article is exactly warranted although something should happen. Yeoutie (talk) 19:23, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

This article does not have to be split because Bulgaria and Romania are part of Schengen area, will provide Schengen Visa like all other member states, will be part in Concilium Schengen Justice and Home Affairs and have air and maritim boarder lifted. Like Greece, Romania and Bulgaria have both the same status. All three states have no interne terrestrial boardes lifted. In rest they have the same status, obligations and rights.

When someone is reading about Ro and Bg will know that terrestrial boarders are not lifted and will be lifted sometime in the future. 2A02:2F04:119:8400:DC4A:6DA2:405A:DE83 (talk) 11:30, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

The map and the article have to be updated. As of today 31 March 2024, Bulgaria and Romania ARE full members of the Schengen area, with border checks lifted on air and land borders, with partial border control still remaining on land borders.

this is not accurate to still group Bulgaria and Romania together with Cyprus and say they are “obligated to join in the future”. 77.85.21.34 (talk) 12:44, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

I have updated the remaining maps now. --Nablicus (talk) 12:55, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

If Greece is in the same color with all other states so Romania and Bulgaria have to have the same color. They have the same status. Full memebers, visa Schengen, Concilium, etc. and no internal boarders lifted. If you color different Romania and Bulgaria, Greece have to have the same color like them. 2A02:2F04:119:8400:ADD7:205C:CBE6:4C7B (talk) 16:02, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Bulgaria and Romania have now entered for land borders as well after Austria lifted its veto. The map may be updated. WhereAreYouHouston182 (talk) 19:16, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

well, that seems still a bit premature... but they are getting there.... L.tak (talk) 22:46, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

And the decision is made! Article was already updated and I see some back and forth editing regarding the legend to the map for Ro and Bg, which I won't change as I don't mind whether the legend should read "air and sea border only", or "full implementation on 1 jan 2025". Neither of them is outdated or a WP:Crystal-ball statement... L.tak (talk) 22:52, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Andorra

Andorra has no open borders with its neighbors, that is France and Spain. So there are no Andorran open borders with the Schengen area. Pmmollet^Talk 05:56, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

In 2024, the German Ministry of Foreign Affairs reports that Andorra has a de facto open border with Spain and France. Thearones (talk) 06:28, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Well, the information by the German Ministry of Foreign Affairs is simply incorrect. In fact, the first steps to negotiations about an agreement to provide a legal basis for the absence of border controls between France and Andorra as well as between Spain and Andorra have just been taken, see [7]. --Nablicus (talk) 07:15, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

In addition, there are two official border control points at the border to Andorra – La Seo de Urgel (Spain) and Pas de la Case-Porta (France) – listed in the official list of border crossing points of the Schengen area, see list for Spain and for France. This is not the case for Monaco, San Marino, and the Vatican City, since they indeed have open borders with the Schengen area, in accordance with the Schengen acquis and/or intergovernmental agreements. --Nablicus (talk) 07:42, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

That link seems to support the statement by the German ministry, the language "necessary to provide a legal basis for the absence of border controls" implies there is an existing lack of border controls. CMD (talk) 08:25, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

So you mean that the border controls have already been scrapped without a legal basis? That would be a violation of applicable law, such as the Schengen borders code. Once again, there are border control points listed for the border with Andorra, in contrast to Monaco, San Marino, and the Vatican. --Nablicus (talk) 08:41, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

I understand the situation like this. There are border crossing points, with border police present, but most people are let through without any systematic entry or exit controls of their identity (however, there seems to be no legal basis for this, which is a bit odd given the provisions in the Schengen acquis on controls at external borders). However, in principle, the border police can control anyone they like. A third-country national should in principle ask for their passport to be stamped at both exit and entry of the Schengen area at the Andorran border. In comparison to other external borders, the border controls at Andorran borders seem to be relaxed, but they do still exist. There are clearly still border control points there and border police doing some checks. It is not a completely open border like Monaco, San Marino, and the Vatican. --Nablicus (talk) 08:51, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Scrapping would imply the border was once fully enforced, which may not be the case. Andorra used to use the Euro without legal basis, this may be a similar situation. CMD (talk) 14:24, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

No, the situation is very different because Andorra can of course do whatever they want, but as Schengen states, France and Spain are obliged to conduct border controls at the external borders in accordance with applicable EU law. They don't have the freedom to choose unilaterally to just relax border measures, unless there is a legal basis to do so. Anything else would constitute a violation of EU law. --Nablicus (talk) 15:08, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Sounds like its a violation of EU law then. CMD (talk) 16:24, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Okay, after digging more into this, I agree that there are several independent sources claiming that there are no systematic border controls at the Andorran border. However, it is still very strange since there are listed border control points (in contrast to, e.g., the San Marinese border) and there seems to be no legal basis for these relaxed border controls. By the way, I also noticed that the EU Council has authorized negotiations with San Marino. So in that regard, the situation is similar for those two countries. I updated the Wikipedia article accordingly. --Nablicus (talk) 17:15, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

I think that now it is better to do not write in the article that Andorra is a de facto Schengen state. The sources contain information that entering and exiting Andorra is illegal for tourists having only single-entry Schengen visas. It is a very important issue. D.M. from Ukraine (talk) 11:54, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

In my opinion they should fix this issue, an agreement between Andorra, France, Spain, EU that single-entry visa is good to enter Andorra and go back to a neighbour country. Andorra has e.g. sports events such as world cup skiing with visitors from other continents.   As long as special multiple-entry visas are needed, Andorra can't be said to be de-facto part of the Schengen Area.--BIL (talk) 18:48, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

There are actually negotiations about this, see Council decision authorising the opening of negotiations with Andorra. --Nablicus (talk) 18:52, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

It would be better to mark Andorra as a de facto Schengen state only when the agreement is signed. Now there are only negotiations. D.M. from Ukraine (talk) 18:59, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

References

Euler diagram depicting Bulgaria and Romania as non Schengen Area countries

As mentioned throughout the talk page, the legal status of Bulgaria and Romania's accession to the Schengen Area is as follows:

1. Both countries are FULL members of the Schengen Area. That means they are obliged to apply Schengen rules for air, sea AND land travel.

2. Owing to pressure from Austria, land controls are still in place at the borders of Bulgaria and Romania with other Schengen countries (Greece and Hungary), while controls for air and sea travel have been entirely lifted.

3. The very fact that land controls have not yet been lifted does NOT mean that Bulgaria and Romania are outside Schengen. Partial accession does not exist legally and, even though land controls are still in place (an exception under examination by the Commission and the Council), Bulgaria and Romania are member states of the Schengen Area.

Consequently, the Euler diagram should be edited to include Bulgaria and Romania in the Schengen Area circle. Goombario64 (talk) 10:14, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

This makes sense to me. There have been other occasions where border controls have been (re)instated between members and the consequence was not their exclusion from Schengen. This case is essentially the same. Support. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 10:34, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

@Goombario64: I reverted the diagram to a previous version that included them in the Schengen Area. Brainiac242 (talk) 11:12, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your help. Goombario64 (talk) 18:57, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Add Bulgaria and Romania to blue/fully joined on the map

Since it's official that they will fully join on 1 January 2025, do we add them now or wait until 1 January? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2F0F:F108:6000:60F7:E9A6:58A5:A2BF (talk) 11:26, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I suppose the map should not be edited until the change is enforced GranDucaDiFirenze (talk) 16:14, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is WP:NOTNEWS and not a WP:CRYSTAL ball; there's no WP:DEADLINE. Wait until there's a reliable reference which states that they are full members of Schengen, then the article's map can be changed (there are several in Commons to pick from) and text updated to show the event has happened. Bazza 7 (talk) 23:07, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Might not be able to change the map just in time (I mean, it's new year....), but pretty sure someone else will do so. ~~~~ Xolani (talk) 08:38, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

@Xolani Have you checked c:Category:Maps of Schengen Agreement? There's this one

amongst others. And I repeat, there's no WP:DEADLINE. Bazza 7 (talk) 14:17, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

I am confident that the page will be updated very quickly, but as Bazza notes, even if it were not, there is no need to be abreast of breaking news, let alone pre-empt it and post something incorrect. CMD (talk) 14:21, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree, of course. Though I would prefer to have the OG SVG updated instead of having it replaced by a PNG. Xolani (talk) 14:32, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Well then can't somebody update the SVG on 1 January? 213.233.110.217 (talk) 22:40, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Who is this somebody? If you have the time to give and skills needed, you can prepare a new map yourself ready for when it's needed. Otherwise you'll have to wait until someone else does it. Bazza 7 (talk) 10:16, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Map color of Bulgaria and Romania

Change the pink color of the maps of Bulgaria and Romania to blue now that they are fully part of the Schengen area 85.245.187.39 (talk) 22:51, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

They are not now fully part of the Schengen area. CMD (talk) 03:27, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

They will be fully part of the Schengen Area on 1 January 213.233.110.217 (talk) 09:06, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

That's the plan, but it's not happened yet so, unless you're a time-traveller with evidence that it does happen, we'll stick to WP:CRYSTAL. Bazza 7 (talk) 10:13, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

"Individual scheduled or expected future events should be included only if the event is notable and almost certain to take place."

Well since the last and final decision was made on 12 December at the Council of the European Union, then it's something that's set in stone, it can't be denied/annulled or taken back anymore, Romania and Bulgaria are full Schengen members but the border controls are going to be abolished on 1 January, I don't think you even read the official press release article have you? 2A02:2F0F:F108:6000:513:8005:DDCA:2B9 (talk) 10:55, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree, that's what the rules say, but let's think of the most practical solution. Imagine you're planning a Christmas road trip through Europe, and don't really like border controls. You check the Wikipedia page to see which countries you should avoid because they're not in Schengen. The map displays Romania and Bulgaria as Schengen members, so you go there. You arrive at the border and surprise - border checkpoint. People don't visit this site to hear what some people in Brussels decided, they do it to see what the fact really is. See WP:PRAC Littau Eric (talk) 18:27, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Let's see if the map will be updated on the 1st of January. There is obviously some negative bias towards these countries by the head authors and editors of this page 2A01:5A8:405:734C:7932:DFA3:7B8E:B052 (talk) 15:52, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't see what the problem is. Anyone can update the article on 1 January. Unless someone else does it before me, I will do it myself. --Nablicus (talk) 16:00, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

No, there is no bias towards these countries. The only bias is precision. We don't declare to be true something that we know that will continue to be false for another 16 days. The same policy applies to every article on Wikipedia, it is not personal. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 17:09, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Accession of Bulgaria and Romania

This part should be removed. Bulgaria and Romania are full members of Schengen Area now. Each country in Schengen has own story about accession to Schengen, this article would be very long if we write about accession of every member. Dasomm (talk) 11:58, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree 2A02:2F0F:F108:6000:91A7:F5E6:5723:C9F6 (talk) 13:14, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

I think the subsection can be shortened, but parts of it should definitely be kept in the History section. The accession process for Bulgaria and Romania was very long and complicated, and not comparable to other countries' accession processes. It is worth to be mentioned. --Nablicus (talk) 13:17, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

I also agree, remove Bulgaria and Romania section (at maximum keep 2-3 phrases which say that those are the last countries to join area after years of process). Risto est (talk · contribs) 17:03, 3 January 2025 (UTC)