Talk:Racism in China/Archive 1

Archive 1

Tibet

The section introduced on Tibet has nothing to do with racism. It is about human rights abuses and was removed from another article without consensus. Human rights abuses are not appropriate here, unless text and sources can be provided to show discrimination based on race. I don't see that with what Skyfiler introduced, though if someone wants to come up with something different it would be interesting to see. John Smith's (talk) 16:44, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Reverse Racism

No doubt that there are racism in China, but it is a lesser issue than an economic, or regional discrimination. Heck, people from Shanghai would discriminate anyone who is not from Shanghai, likewise in Beijing. Westerners usually cannot perceive this because of their race, since there is a reverse racism against Chinese (i.e. prior 1990s since Opium war, there was reverse racism among some Chinese who regard Chinese civilization as inferior. Fortunately, such view has since been reversed).

The fundamental problem for racism, particularly in case of Tibet, is oftentimes a political issue to contain and smear the PRC government. For this reason, I put the reverse racism section here to point out the efforts by the PRC government to improve the educations and economic growth in ethnic regions. Of course, there are people who like the old ways (btw, Tibet prior 1950 was a slavery society, and suddenly Dalai Lama started to talk about democracy being an exile) and refuse to be modernized. Then again, the government would be criticized for increasing the economic gap between ethnic minorities and Han Chinese (which is really not a race, but a collection of people from diverse origins and races). It seems no matter what PRC government tries to do, it is criticized.

Tibetan exiles, for example, criticized the PRC government for building rail roads in Tibet, without mentioning that only transportations could possibly bring much need aids (the PRC government spends hundreds of millions of dollars each year to Tibet) such as food and medicine, and without mentioning the fact that due to the high percentage of Tibetan monks (which are paid wages by PRC government), the region cannot be self-sustained without aids. Coconut99 99 (talk) 22:13, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I removed the section about reverse-racism because this article is about racism and not about affirmative action. Furthermore, Wikipedia is not a soapbox, and not the place to talk about those ungrateful Tibetans who refuse to acknowledge the generosity of the PR China government. Novidmarana (talk) 21:23, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

No, reverse racism talked about here is that non-ethnics get treated as secondary class citizens in the local autonomous region, which is also a form a racism. Also, affirmative actions is very much related to racism. Coconut99 99 (talk) 23:01, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

This article is about racism and not concepts that are only related to racism. Your claim that non-ethnics are treated as secondary class citizens, and that this is also a form of racism is your POV and hence should not be included as long as there are no reliable sources for this claim. And lastly, to be frank, the section as it stands is bull. Maybe this is the view of the Chinese government that everything is hunky dory, but then it should be made clear that it is just their view. Novidmarana (talk) 23:33, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

You should check the references first, the view that the PRC government causes reverse racism isn't coming from the PRC government, but critics of the PRC government racial policy. It is your POV that removes this section. Coconut99 99 (talk) 03:41, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Can you cite the source where the view is by critics of the governments racial policy. If not I assume that it is YOUR POV. Oiboy77 (talk) 17:05, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Gweilo

I have reverted the change that said it is no longer derogatory. That's very much a subjective thing, and I would say that it is still an insult. If editors are of the opinion that it is not seen to be offensive then I think we would need much more discussion here backed up by some detailed sources. Also it can still be used offensively, even if some foreigners don't mind it. John Smith's (talk) 12:01, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Unsourced Claim

There are no sources that can support the claim that China had a lot of "African" slaves. I removed it until someone can bring up facts, and no simply try to pad the blood on European hands onto the Chinese. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.169.66.77 (talk) 19:37, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Stop adding citation needed

User:DerechoReguerraz, please stop adding meaningless templates again, and please be informed that there are many millions of Chinese that speak only Cantonese, or Hokkian. And among Cantonese and Hokkian people, "Bun Tong Fan" and "Bua Chai" are common words used every day, there is no need citation. Arilang ^talk 09:49, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Luo Jing

Removed this sensationalist claptrap. If Luo Jing must be added to this article, every single person ever smeared by white racists on the internet must be added to racism in x european country articles. Racist portrayals of Barack Obama should be included. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Huaxia (talk • contribs) 22:31, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: already moved by Revenge of the Cybermen (talk · contribs) on August 24 Airplaneman ✈ 14:58, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

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Racism in the People's Republic of China → Ethnic issues in the People's Republic of China — Following the precedent of Ethnic issues in Japan. This article is mostly about interaction between ethnics; not races, as Tibetans, Koreans, etc. are the same "race" as other Chinese. Furthermore, it discusses the interaction between ethnics in minority-led Dynasties, Chinese admiration of foreigners, and minority resentment against Chinese, which is broader than racism. That the UN Convention against Racism makes no distinction between "race" and "ethnicity" is a legalism; using the treaty's definition here is synthesis, because the article's own sources make the distinction between race and ethnicity. Quigley (talk) 16:40, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

• Support As per Quigley's comments - the new title appears more accurate than the old. Solid State Survivor (talk) 03:59, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
• Support As per the above.Wikiscient (talk) 23:17, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Are these really major ethnic conflicts in China?

In the section Major ethnic conflicts in China, Opium Wars, Boxer Rebellion, Second Sino-Japanese War are listed as major ethnic conflicts. I don't see how that can be true. Opium Wars and Sino-Japanese war were conflict between nations, and not ethnic conflicts as such. The ethnic part only arise because they are of different nations, if we were to list all such conflicts, then you would have to list all the wars that China had with all foreign nations in Chinese history (including all the wars between China and groups like Xiongnu, as well as nations that were considered foreign or barbarian but had since become absorbed into China), which is a lot. I would interpret "ethnic conflict" as conflict between different ethnic groups within China, a better example would be the Wei–Jie war (where Ran Min ordered the extermination of the Jie people) which it is a clearer example of conflict between ethnic groups within China. I can understand that significant anti-Japanese sentiment was roused by the Sino-Japanese War, but you can say the same thing about Xiongnu and other invaders in Chinese history. Hzh (talk) 14:35, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Requested move 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Jenks24 (talk) 16:44, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

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Ethnic issues in the People's Republic of China → Ethnic issues in China – The article contents are not limited to modern China (i.e. the PRC), but also cover Ancient China, imperial times (e.g. the Qing Dynasty) and so forth. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 08:55, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

• Support Gasp. Could we actually have a noncontroversial China article rename here? --BDD (talk) 21:57, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
  • This one should be relatively uncontroversial, since no article exists at Ethnic issues in the Republic of China, meaning that no dab needs to exist at Ethnic issues in China (currently a redirect is in the way). Furthermore, even ROC topics are covered in this article (such as ROC General Ma Bufang massacring Kazakhs), it makes sense to make the move in that regard since the PRC era does not make up of a majority of the article contents. The Two Chinas issue is irrelevant here, because this is a more generic topic, similar to Cuisine of China or Religion in China, and not similar to more politics/government-related articles, which is where the controversy and disagreement actually lies. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 01:07, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
• Support the title change, which should be relatively uncontroversial (although the contents of the article might well be rather controversial) since the topic is not about a specific political entity or its symbols, emblems or flag. — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 01:35, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
• Support. The country article is at China, so the title for this article should correspond. Kauffner (talk) 07:52, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Systemic bias?

Muslims are but a small minority in China. Why does every paragraph on the article mention them? Jesus, this is becoming an obsession on Wikipedia. 187.24.214.136 (talk) 02:23, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

RfC

BAn RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 16:41, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Drug trade and racism in Xinjiang

Uyghurs blame Chinese, Hui Muslim drug dealers in particular, for selling drugs like heroin to them

http://books.google.com/books?id=gSvUAY4aRRkC&pg=PA36&dq=Hui heroin&hl=en&sa=X&ei=O3LhUue5EZTNsASYtYCwCg&ved=0CFYQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=Hui heroin&f=false

05:03, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Other racism

Quote: A Hui soldier of the 36th division called Sven Hedin a "foreign devil", which is a now antiquated derogatory Chinese term used to describe any foreigner.

Why is the remark of a random individual even included in this section? Would it be a justified method to cite personal attacks (or more specifically, one single instance of the use of racial slurs) to prove the existence of racism in other countries? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.208.60.214 (talk) 13:08, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

When you're grasping at straws you put in as much as you can. Fact is and remains China doesn't have even a fraction of a fraction of the racism anywhere else. In fact there's a saying in China that where other people fight outsiders tooth and claw, China allows them to beat it down. 9901bottles (talk) 22:50, 1 August 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.38.213.212 (talk)

Time to clean this garbage article up. Huaxia (talk) 01:59, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Lao Wai

is not derogatory at all. Chinese call themselves "Lao Zhong", foreigners "Lao Wai". I will delete it.35.10.127.153 (talk) 15:55, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually that's not true. I was attacked and called racist when some Chinese tourists came into my shop and I addressed them as "Lao Wai." I called them "Lao Wai" because I was told that was a polite word to call foreigners when I lived in China. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:BC0F:A90:E01A:2BF6:42B8:9FC2 (talk) 18:35, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Intra-Han ethnic issues

There's a lot of long-standing tension between Han people based on where they come from: northern vs southern, Hakka vs Cantonese, Hong Kong/Taiwan/Singapore vs the mainland, coastal vs inland, Mandarin-speaking vs Cantonese/Wu/Min-speaking, etc. Sometimes this tension occurs in very ethnic terms, with insinuations of the other side being half-barbarian thrown about. I think this needs to be documented as well, as the supposed homogeneity of the Han Chinese isn't conflict-free. --Euniana/Talk 15:39, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Who wrote this article? Children?

There's a part of this article that refers to ancient Chinese racism. Chinese people didnt even have a concept of race back then. The concept of race arises with the concept of science in the West. This article doesnt even make the slightest bit of sense.

How is the Opium Wars racial??? The British said it was about trade. The Chinese said it was about opium. This article is not even logical and was written by someone who had NO understanding of Chinese history.

Boxer Rebellion, again not racial.

Second Sino-Japanese War, again not racial. This article is full of errors and I suggest to whoever added this crazy nonsense into this article to take a Chinese History course from a reputable university. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.86.164.236 (talk) 02:49, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

"Chinese people didnt even have a concept of race back then"

Actually they did as evidenced by the racist policies in ancient China. You can't just erase a bit of history and make it go away; it's true whether you believe so or not. But believe your propaganda that the concept of race originated in medieval Europe as much as you'd like; it doesn't make a difference. Believing that no one anywhere around the world ever thought of the concept of race/ethnicity before medieval Europeans is beyond ridiculous and even delusional. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.121.48.181 (talk) 11:05, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

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Requested move 4 June 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus.(non-admin closure) Eventhorizon51 ^(talk) 02:14, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

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Ethnic issues in China → Racism in China – This article, as lacking as it may be, basically is about a number of specific forms of racism rather than about Ethnic conflicts in China. The expression "ethnic issues" is belittling and ambiguous, and only useful as a disambiguation page or an overview article about all ethnicity-related issues in China that are detailed in more specific articles. PanchoS (talk) 20:12, 4 June 2016 (UTC) --Relisting. Omni Flames (talk) 00:17, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose. "Ethnic issues" correctly matches the content of the article. I see no problem. Filpro (talk) 01:36, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose per Filpro - "Ethnic issues" is correct here. –Davey2010^Talk 23:48, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

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=

鬼 Gwei/Gui != Devil

This article perpetuating the myth that the Gwei鬼 in Gweilo鬼佬, 洋鬼子, 红毛鬼, and 油炸鬼 means Devil. I think the article on the Cantonese term Gweilo nicely established that the character actually translates better to ghost, and refers to skin colour rather than a horrible devil type character. I don't like the term, but I think it is important to be clear to understand cultural differences. I think we need some clarification. --SnakeSeries (talk) 13:41, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

I think we also need to note that this article directly contradicts the Gweilo article. If a reader new to the subject were to read both articles, they'd surely be left with some confusion considering the use of the term here is not what is stated in the other article. Maxxx12345 (talk) 02:25, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

Unexplained cleanup tags

@GretLomborg: What is the reason for these cleanup tags that you added to this article? Jarble (talk) 18:19, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Uyghur genocide has an RFC

Uyghur genocide has an RFC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. Mikehawk10 (talk) 23:21, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 24 September 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 19:30, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

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Ethnic issues in China → Racism in China – It seems like ethnic issues in China are somehow overlapped together with racism in China. Putting the page "Ethnic issues" undermines racism that also exists in China, just like we pretend racism doesn't exist in the West or other nations. ZaDoraemonzu (talk) 18:52, 24 September 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. Primefac (talk) 17:24, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose. I don't understand this request. The article seems to be a comprehensive list of China's languages and ethnicities. The Beiyang government viewed China's population as consisting of "five races." These were ethnic Chinese, Mongols, Muslims, Manchus, and Tibetans. Since that time, the Manchus have died out. There is no tradition of calling any of the other groups listed "races." 3K008P9 (talk) 09:14, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

But does China really care about implementing it? This is questionable given the racial problem in China. Chinese people, especially the Han ethnicity, don't practice a kind of racism we have seen in the West and it is unfamiliar if you have never been to China. Chinese history is full of racist incidents, but it has never been viewed properly like what we studied in the other countries including the West. ZaDoraemonzu (talk) 15:22, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

• Support but with the caveat that it should be more accurately re-named as Ethnic discrimination and racism in China because some of the discrimination discussed therein is not solely of a racial nature. Amigao (talk) 03:19, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose the proposed title as reflecting on a small portion of the article's content. The current title is not ideal as it seems euphemistic, but on the other hand, not all of the article is about discrimination either. A lot of the text really just deals with ethnic "issues". —  AjaxSmack  21:38, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per AjaxSmack. The article encompasses far more than that. (although to be honest, the article looks a bit of a hodge podge mess; should it be cleaned up, a better title might be found) Walrasiad (talk) 00:47, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose with the caveat that a stand-alone page for Racism in China should be created. Not everything currently on this page fits under the current title. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:51, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

It's a bit late but I think the article should have been moved. Ethnic issues is not even a concept that exists, it is just a wiki weaseling way of not having "racism in Foo" country because some people think it is offensive to say their country has racist history. Racism existed and exists in all countries and the very few countries that have "ethnic issues in..." rather than "racism in..." entry need to have that entry moved. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:14, 19 March 2021 (UTC)