Talk:Nobility and royalty of the Kingdom of Hungary

titles

The content of this article is quite strange...For example, Emperor / King / Prince are no noble titles, actually... Juro 00:58, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Right. Until someone writes a page on Hungarian royalty, I move those sentences here. Alensha 21:38, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It was extremely BAD idea to hide information! Mikkalai 06:01, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

initial list

Initially, I compiled the following list, from dictionaries. Not all of the terms are explained in the current version of the article.

Prince:

• fejedelem
• herzeg (hercegnő, princess)
• uralkodó
• egyeduralkodó
• királynő férje (prince consort)
• királyi herceg (royal prince)

Duke:

• herzeg
• nagyherceg (Grand Duke; literally Grand Prince)

Earl, count: gróf

Baron: báró

King: király

Emperor, kaiser: császár

Mikkalai 06:01, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"Uralkodó" means ruler, "egyeduralkodó" means monarch, autocrat. These aren't titles. The others are explained in the article. I'm sorry for hiding the info, but I don't know how to modify article titles :) (by the way, that "hand, leg, paw," etc. - what are those??) Alensha 22:35, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thanks. First, Juro was wrong with his suggestion in the first place. The article title is not "Titles of Nobility"; also, royalty counts towards nobility: shoot me if King's son is not a nobleman. As for hand and leg, you tell me, how they are related to Hungarian titles. I don't remember how, but I collected them as well when I was looking at all possible translations of noble titles into Hungarian. Could they be some court or military ranks? Mikkalai 23:05, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

There were hundreds of real noble types and titles in the Kingdom of Hungary which the article does not mention, but the article on nobility mentioned the Hungarian words (which have no special meaning unlike e.g. enkin in Mesopotomia or pharao in Egypt) for Ruling prince (do not confuse this with a prince in the sense of royal son!), King and even Holy German Emperor - that was, I am sorry, simply childish. Unfortunately I do not have the time to improve the article. And one final remark: The online-dictionary mentioned below, which I know very well, is a very bad dictionary when you need to translate other than everyday texts. And the translation of medieval and other titles is a very difficult thing, so you should not use it for that purpose. Juro 19:43, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Those "hand", "leg", etc. have nothing to do with titles or ranks of any kind, that's why I was surprised to find them here. It would be interesting to see where have you found them. Alensha 17:46, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Now I'm recalling. There is an online En-Hu, Hu-En dictionary, with a nice interface. If you look up a word, it gives you a list of possible translations. You may click an any translation, and you are given a list of back-translations. Very handy. So, I was happily clicking to and fro, until the word "duke" gave me "herceg" and also all these paws and tails. You can try it yourself.

Thanks for the link! I know that dictionary but haven't seen that entry till now. Apparently it is a mistyping for dukes which, according to Google, is Cockney rhyming slang for fist... one always learns new things :) Alensha 22:29, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

fejedelem

• Fejedelem was the title of the ruler of the Hungarian principality before the first king, Stephen I was crowned in 1000

- pls provide reference to a source containing the title of fejedelem before 1000 -- Criztu 21:02, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• In later centuries a fejedelem was the ruler of Transylvania.

- pls provide reference to which centuries and which princes bore the title of fejedelem of Transylvania. -- Criztu 21:02, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

(I guess "everyone knows it in Hungary" wouldn't be a credible reference...)

I think for pre-1000 rulers the original Hungarian term was vezér (leader). The most important leaders were the gyula and the kündü. I think it was kündü that was translated to Latin as "princeps" thus in later ages they were called fejedelem.

For Transylvanian princes the title "fejedelem" was used not only in later ages but in their lifetime too. The example I can think of right now is Kelemen Mikes who was the notary of Prince Francis II Rákóczi to whom he always referred to as "fejedelem".

–Alensha 17:57, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

i can give you an example with the following romanian title "domnitor" : everybody in Romania "knows" that Stefan the Great was a "domnitor" of Moldova, yet he is called "hospodar" in the documents of his time; however, the title "domnitor" aplies safely for romanian rulers from the 18th century. so calling the voivodes/governors/princeps/bans/herzogs of Transylvania as "fejedelem" or as "domnitor" i'm not satisfied with that :) -- Criztu 18:41, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think the situation is similar here. "Fejedelem" safely applies to Hungarian rulers of Transylvania (from 16th century) but from the earliest centuries we don't really have any Hungarian-language sources. It would help to know how old the word itself is, but I don't have an etymology dictionary here right now... Alensha 12:35, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The title is "great prince" in Slavic languages, so that I am quite sure that the title was "great prince" in Latin originally, which (at least) later was denoted as fejedelem in Hungarian so that the Hungarians apply it "in retrospective" also to the period of the 10th century. Unless someone finds the ethymology for the word, the correct solution would be to call the title "great prince" and not fejedelem. But this is only a sort of "educated guess". Juro 15:20, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm waiting for User:Adam78 to find this talk page; he surely has an etymology dictionary. Alensha 15:43, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Lackovic and Gorjanski or Lackfi and Garay

These families appear in Wikipedia in Croatian though they were not Croatian families. The Lackfis came from Transylvania (as Wikipedia states too) the Garay was a branch of the Dorozsma clan. 84.2.210.61 09:49, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Should I give the Croatian name of the Zápolyas? Zapolje (Szapolya) is in Croatia and the origin of the family is dubious. They might be Croatian. Does anybody know what is the opinion of Croatian historians? 81.183.150.196 09:22, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Title of nobility - Prince

The section on the titles of nobility is -rather- strange. I am talking about the 'duke' title. I am aware that in the middle ages princes of royal blood were called 'dux' in Latin texts - but this was simply a general name for 'prince', ie an autonomous ruler. So the (later) Markgraf of Moravia was a 'dux', and so was any autonmous ruler. But specifically in a Hungarian context, there were NO duke titles given by the Hapsburgs. That is nonsense. The title in discussion (I presume) is in fact Prince, Furst, Princeps, etc etc. This is very obvious, it suffices to look at old engravings, grants of arms or what have you. In any case only a handful of families received the title of Furst: Esterhazy, Palffy, Grassalkovich, Kohary. No more. I am going to change this paragraph. Any opposition? --Levomir 17:51, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

However, I am not completely sure as to what Prince of the Austrian Empire was called in Hungarian - fejedelem, herceg or uraldok? It would be nice for a Hungarian speaker to add that it, meanwhile I shall put all the thee possible translations in.--Levomir 17:59, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

In any case only a handful of families received the title of Furst: Esterhazy, Palffy, Grassalkovich, Kohary. No more. Could you give us a source? I'm sure that Rákóczi family was also entitled Sacri Romani Imperii princeps. I do not know the appropriate German term, so it is not sure that they were fürsts. 84.0.252.152 10:47, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

The 8th Law of 1886. created the category of "Hungarian" princes. Many members of the list are nationalized foreign princely families.

• Szász-Koburg-Gotha
• Auersperg
• Batthyány-Strattmann
• Czartoryski
• Esterházy
• Khevenhüller-Metsch
• Kinsky
• Lamberg
• Liechtenstein
• Lobkowitz
• Metternich
• Odescalchi
• Pálffy
• Thurn-Taxis
• Schwarzenberg
• Trauttmansdorff
• Windisch-Gratz 84.0.252.152 10:47, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I am afraid I am not in a position to give a source on that at the moment - and accept my apologies for missing out the princes Batthyany. The argument, however, still stands, that only a handful of *Hungarian* families were invested with the title - you mention a very recent law that simply naturalises, in the process of unifying the Empire, noblemen with estates and/or positions in Hungary. This naturally happened in many other countries in Europe, with a notable comparison being with Russia, in which many German and French noblement within the administration were naturalised. The two (I think) Rakoczis were Princes of Transylvania, an infinitely higher title than the subsequent Rohmische Furst, as it meant the leadership of a real principality. I any case it would be naive to think that the Hapsburgs would elevate their arch-enemies into princely rank.

They have no other choise. George I. Rákóczi was created prince of the Holy Roman Empire by the Peace of Linz in 1645 between the Habsburgs and Transylvania.84.0.252.152 12:54, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Also - the article does not mention the important division between magnates and the gentry,a crucial distinction with Hungarian nobility. I will add that if there are no objections. This applies to the comment that 'noblemen were usually wealthy landowners' which, in the case of Hungary, is misleading. Hungary, like Poland to a certain extent, was peculiar by its high number of landless nobles, elevated into the rank for service in the army for instance, like the thousand hajduks given the same coat-of-arms by Stephen Bocskai, Prince of Transylvania.--80.176.91.55 11:13, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

The argument, however, still stands I have never queried that, only the exact number.

No, this Law is not about naturalizing. Some of these families were naturalized in the XVII. century etc. It is the first law that creates the category "herceg" (prince/duke) for noblemens. Before that it was simply non-existant.

magnates and gentry: Werbőczy created the theory of Una eademque nobilitas, in which he states that there is no legal difference between noblemen and noblemen (only social). His lawbook became widely accepted and used. Till the second half of the 20th century everybody beleived that his lawbook described that effective situation of his age. It was proven by Erik Fügedi ([1])that Werbőczy was not right, the aristocrats became more and more a separated group in the Jagiellon era (1490-1526). Werbőczy was a propagandist of the gentry. The problem: I do not know what was the situation under the Habsburgs. 84.0.252.152 12:36, 29 September 2006 (UTC)