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Variants
edit"Kneale"? really? Is this a traditional variant or one of those modern re-spellings? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.87.189.17 (talk) 15:20, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
- It's definitely not a traditional variant, as "K" has nothing to do with the etymology and none of the Goidelic languages ever evolved silent "k"s. If it is actually used at all (let's assume the author who put it in is not lying), then it will be totally modern. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 15:29, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
- It's my first name, it's also a Manx surname. Kneale (talk) 11:39, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
- The question is should this surname be listed under Neil - I agree it exists as a significant Manx surname, but is it related to the Irish Niall's or some other source? I'll keep looking, but suggest you will need to cite a reference to establish your case.NealeFamily (talk) 01:31, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- I have found the following reference about Kneel -
The surname Kneal, Kneel, or Kneale is from the Isle of Man, but from the same origins as Neil, and is a typical Manx contraction of the Gaelic patronymic "Mac Niall", son of Niall. Early recordings from the Isle of Man include John Kneel who married Isabella Caveen at Malew on July 12th 1636 and John Kneale who married Katherin Kewne also at Malew, on July 10th 1655. The first recorded spelling of the family name is shown to be that of Ewan Kneal, which was dated 1598 ...
- on http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/kneale#ixzz1YdFxKp92 NealeFamily (talk) 23:24, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- All sources I have checked agree that the "K" spelling is the Manx version of the name. These include "A Dictionary of British Surnames, P H Reaney, Routledge and Kegan Paul, 1976, London" and "A W Moore, Manx Names, 1903, London".NealeFamily (talk) 01:50, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
Chart
edit- In the chart that you created under 'variants' with dates, could you make it clear which names are surnames or patronyms, and which are forenames? The sentence just above is talking about given names, and the chart appears to start off, at least, with a surname or patronym. I can't tell what the others are.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 05:16, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
- I am thinking of adding an additional column to capture this. Should I also add a column for the country/region where the derivative originated?NealeFamily (talk) 08:56, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
Disputed meaning and origin is disputed
editNone of the sources quoted state that the meaning or origin is disputed. They are unanimous in that the name comes the Old Irish word for "champion".NealeFamily (talk) 01:44, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- The Oxford Dictionary of Names ref says exactly that ("of disputed derivation"). I'll tidy things up a bit.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 06:10, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- Noted - I wonder if it is the First Name rather than the Surname that is under dispute? All the sources I have checked on Surnames are quite categorical about Naill meaning "champion" and Neil being sourced from it. Thanks for giving the source. I wonder if there is a nice tame Gaellic etymologist or linguist out there who could shed some light on the subject.... NealeFamily (talk) 02:41, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
- The Ancestry link used as a reference cites Dictionary of American Family Names. For most of these Niall-names it states "thought to mean 'champion'". So the writers of that book, at least, don't appear be 100 percent certain of it. Agreed, it'd be interesting to know why.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 05:13, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
- I have checked a variety of books on English, Irish, and Scottish Surnames. All conclude that Neil as a Surname in its various forms comes from Niall and all state its meaning as "champion". The point where the meaning is much less certain is where it is used as a first name - Hanks and Hardcastle in their Dictionary of Surnames gives the meaning as "champion", but as you pointed out their Dictionary of First Names states the meaning is uncertain when used as a first name. For instance in a modern Irish/English Dictionary Néal is stated as meaning "cloud". I was unable to find a word match for "passionate" in the same dictionary.
- My suggestion is to put sub-headings under Origin to deal with the difference in treatment of Neil as a Surname and First Name. What are peoples thoughts? NealeFamily (talk) 02:59, 26 September 2011 (UTC)