Talk:Mahsa Amini/Archive 1

Archive 1

Requested move 3 October 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Already moved. by User:Elli. Closing per WP:AVALANCHE & WP:NOTBURO. (closed by non-admin page mover) —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 21:47, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

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Mahsa Amini(Jina) → Mahsa Amini – Article Mahsa Amini is redirecting to Death of Mahsa Amini whereas it is a different article. By moving Mahsa Amini(Jina) to Mahsa Amini this redirection problem will be resolvd. Caravaneternity (talk) 14:30, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support moving Mahsa Amini(Jina) to Mahsa Amini – QueenofBithynia (talk) 15:29, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
• Support, but would also recommend a merge discussion with Death of Mahsa Amini. 162 etc. (talk) 16:00, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
• Support moving Mahsa Amini(Jina) to Mahsa Amini .. and beacuse of a notable character she has, I don't support merging it with Death of Mahsa Amini.H2KL (talk) 23:47, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
• Do not move while discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mahsa Amini(Jina) is ongoing. (Yes, the AfD was created later than this move request, but the move discussion should be suspended until the AfD has closed). That discussion will establish the principle of whether there should be a biographical article separate from the article about her death: the name of any such article can then be discussed later. PamD 07:53, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
• Support, meanwhile the discussions go on, we could move the article to Mahsa Amina (Jina) with an additional space for the readership experience.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 00:47, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
• Support If the article somehow passes AfD then it should be moved to Mahsa Amini as that's clearly the common name. Keivan.f^Talk 04:45, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

NPOV template

has been added to this article per the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mahsa Amini(Jina). Beccaynr (talk) 22:14, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Duplication

Parts of this article are copied from the other page and should be deleted. Shadow4dark (talk) 14:39, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@Shadow4dark: All Wikipedia articles are licensed under CC-BY-SA 3.0 You can copy-paste any content from any article as long as you provide attribution (possibly by adding a link to that article) in the edit summary. —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 17:01, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@Shadow4dark - See Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia Christian75 (talk) 21:11, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Ok thanks, and the two pages are already merged. Shadow4dark (talk) 21:13, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Categorization

Should this page still be categorized? It directly redirects to Death of Mahsa Amini instead of something more specific. What's the protocol here? Charles Essie (talk) 16:05, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Categorizing redirects. WWGB (talk) 02:48, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Mahsa Amini was a Kurdish-Iranian

I changed "an Iranian woman" to "a Kurdish-Iranian woman" at this article and Death of Mahsa Amini, because:

1. Associated Press [1] the 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian woman
2. Reuters [2] Kurdish-Iranian Mahsa Amini
3. Agence France-Presse (via France24) [3] Amini, 22, an Iranian of Kurdish origin
4. BBC News [4] the 22-year-old Kurd
5. Al Jazeera Media Network [5] Mahsa Amini, the 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian
6. The New Arab [6] a 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian woman
7. Australian Broadcasting Corporation [7] Mahsa Jina Amini, a 22-year-old Kurdish woman
8. The Times (UK) [8] Mahsa Jina Amini, a 22-year-old Kurdish woman
9. Canadian Broadcasting Corporation [9] The 22-year-old Kurdish woman
10. Le Monde [10] Mahsa Amini, an Iranian woman of Kurdish origin
11. France24 [11] Amini, a 22-year-old Iranian Kurd
12. Deutsche Welle [12] death of a young Kurdish-Iranian woman
13. The Hindu [13] Mahsa Amini, 22, who was of Kurdish origin
14. The Jerusalem Post [14] Mahsa Amini, an Iranian Kurd
15. Times of Israel [15] Mahsa Amini, the 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian woman
16. Haaretz [16] Kurdish-Iranian woman Mahsa Amini
17. New York Times [17] 22-year-old Kurdish Iranian woman
18. The Washington Post [18] The Kurdish woman, 22
19. Wall Street Journal [19] Mahsa Amini, an ethnic Kurd
20. CNN [20] Mahsa Amini, the Kurdish-Iranian woman
21. NPR [21] the 22-year-old Kurdish Iranian woman
22. PBS [22] 22-year-old Iranian Kurdish woman named Mahsa Amini
23. NBC News [23] 22-year-old Kurdish woman
24. ABC News [24] The 22-year-old Kurdish woman's death
25. CBS News [25] The 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian woman
26. Politico [26] Mahsa Jina Amini, the Kurdish Iranian woman
27. The Hill [27] 22-year-old Kurdish-Iranian woman
28. Forbes [28] Amini, a Kurdish woman from Saqqez
29. Bloomberg News [29] the death in custody of a Kurdish Iranian woman
30. The Lancet [30] Mahsa Amini, a 22-year-old Kurdish woman
31. Amnesty International [31] Mahsa/Zhina Amini, a young woman from Iran’s oppressed Kurdish minority
32. Council on Foreign Relations [32] Mahsa Amini, a young Kurdish Iranian woman

I trust this is overwhelming enough that we don't really need like an RFC or anything about this. But, if anyone disagrees with this change, please say why, and if we need to, we can run an RFC. Levivich (talk) 19:36, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

The 'Kurdish-Iranian' should link to Kurds in Iran and not Iranian Kurdistan in my opinion. Semsûrî (talk) 20:04, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

That would be fine with me. Also other constructions like "an Iranian Kurd" would be fine with me, too. Levivich (talk) 20:25, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

MOS:ETHNICITY; "The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory, where the person is currently a citizen, national, or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable. Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability." She is notable for her tragic murder by IRI authorities, not her ethnicity. HistoryofIran (talk) 21:05, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

In my view, 32 sources describing her as "Kurdish", "Kurdish Iranian", or similar, is enough to satisfy MOS:ETHNICITY. Any objection to Should the lead sentences of Mahsa Amini and Death of Mahsa Amini describe Mahsa Amini as an "Iranian woman" or a "Kurdish-Iranian woman" as an RFC question? Levivich (talk) 20:56, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Levivich, please take some time to read the rule, as you are clearly misinterpreting it, just like you have done with other stuff recently. She is only notable for her murder, and her ethnicity is already stated in the body of the article. It’s not because her Kurdish ancestry that we have an article of her, it’s because of her murder. HistoryofIran (talk) 21:13, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran, the MOS states "The opening paragraph should usually .... The word must is not used. That would suggest it is not a hard rule and there is room for leeway, which is generally the case with any sort of MOS in any organisation. @Levivich, I think the RfC question you pose is a good one. TarnishedPath^talk 04:27, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Indeed, but it does still say "should usually". As stated below, I think there should be another RFC opinion, one which has more relevance, something a la this (or another variant if someone can think of something better);

"Mahsa Amini's death ignited the Woman, Life, Freedom movement, rooted in her Kurdish background, which demands the end of compulsory hijab laws and other forms of discrimination and oppression against women in Iran." HistoryofIran (talk) 13:53, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Doesn't seem like anyone objects to that, so I've boldly added it to the lead of this article and Death of Mahsa Amini. If no one objects, we don't need an RFC about it.

I still think the lead sentence of both articles should describe her as a "Kurdish Iranian woman" because that's how so many RSes describe her, but maybe others think this addition is sufficient? Levivich (talk) 06:06, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Would be great to emphasise how Woman Life Freedom is actually of Kurdish origin. Moreover, I think Kurdish is better than Kurdish Iranian as the rest of the article itself explains the situation taking place is based in Iran. You can link Kurdish with "Kurds in Iran" and there would be no need to put in "Kurdish Iranian", many Kurds find that contentious. Accuratehistoryofkurdistan (talk) 06:31, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Levivich, I haven't yet explored scholarly sources, but this may help inform an eventual RFC, or simply help with article development. From my view, news sources you have identified seem to consider "Kurdish Iranian" relevant when describing her, and I listed some commentary sources below that seem to support the Kurdish aspect of her identity as relevant, as well as reporting about Kurdish-related aspects of protests and the Iranian government response. MOS:ETHNICITY says ethnicity should "generally not be in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability" - I am not aware of guidance or past RfCs about the amount and type of sourcing needed to establish relevance, but this seems to be a lower threshold than notability, and perhaps we should consider the weight of available reliable sources. Beccaynr (talk) 06:42, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

I believe that her ethnicity played a central role concerning her story, with all due respect to what you said as you certainly have a good point. However, her story is noteworthy because of the intersection of her identity as both a Kurd and a woman. Accuratehistoryofkurdistan (talk) 06:46, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

I completely agree about giving scholarly sources more weight than news media. Levivich (talk) 06:48, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

I believe that "Kurdish woman" would suffice if it would link to "Kurds in Iran". Accuratehistoryofkurdistan (talk) 06:00, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

• I think some coverage indicates the Kurdish aspect of her identity is relevant to her notability, including responses from the Kurdish community, e.g. "Kurdish civil society organisations have called for a general strike in all of Kurdistan" (Guardian, 17 Sept 2022), "When a young Kurdish woman, Mahsa Amini, died in regime custody 10 days ago, Kurdish corners of Iran were the first to erupt" (Guardian, 27 Sept 2022, See also a timeline in the Guardian, 23 Sept 2022), "On Thursday, protesters torched police stations and vehicles in several cities, and Iran shut off the internet in parts of Tehran and Kurdistan" (Guardian, 23 Sept 2022), CNN, 27 Oct. 2022; "Iranian security forces cracked down on protests in Kurdish areas of the country on Saturday and briefly detained the father of Mahsa Amini" (Reuters/CBC, 16 Sept 2023). I also found this opinion piece in Time Magazine: Why It’s Vital to Center Kurdish Voices in the ‘Woman, Life, Freedom’ Movement (23 Nov. 2022), and this opinion piece in Arab News: Why Mahsa Amini’s death will deepen the alienation of Iran’s secular Kurdish minority (26 Sept 2022). Beccaynr (talk) 22:00, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

  While oppression against the Kurds (both due to their ethnicity and many of them being Sunni) is certainly a thing in the IRI, the murder was still part of the oppression against the women. In Iran, the harder you protest, the more you get suppressed, and Kurdistan was (along with Sistan and Baluchestan province and Tehran) were easily the most resistant regions during the protests. I'm open with mentioning her Kurdish descent further down the lede to tie it in with the Woman, Life, Freedom part. I think that should be a opinion in the RFC too. HistoryofIran (talk) 23:55, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

  Your suggestion may be a reasonable compromise - I am reviewing coverage to try to get a sense of whether there may be support for relevance according to MOS:ETHNICITY, which may be helpful for an RFC, and/or further article development. Additional sources include:

  • "A demonstration first formed in front of the hospital she was taken to in Tehran, followed by protests in her hometown of Saqqez, which then spread to cities and towns across the country." (Al Jazeera, 16 Sept 2023)
  • "The protests over her death in custody, which began in the capital and in her native Kurdistan province, swiftly mushroomed into a nationwide movement for change." (AFP/France24, 16 Mar 2023)
  • Iran tries to deflect protests over Mahsa Amini by focusing on Kurds (Reuters/CBC, 17 Oct 2022)
  • "Authorities have since unleashed a deadly crackdown on demonstrators, with reports of forced detentions and physical abuse being used to target the country’s Kurdish minority group." (CNN, 24 Nov 2022)
  • "Sporadic protests continued in Iran on Sunday amid a widespread crackdown by security forces a year after a young Kurdish woman's death in custody set off some of the worst political unrest in four decades. [...] Rights groups, including the activist HRANA news agency, reported that a number of people were arrested in the Kurdish cities of Saqez and Sanandaj." (Reuters, 17 Sept 2023)
  • An opinion piece: What's in a name: Kurdish martyr Jîna Amini and the struggle for culture and history (Salon, 15 Oct 2022)
  • An opinion piece: Kurdistan in Tehran: What the murder of Jina Amini means for the future of Iran (ABC.au, 26 Sept 2022)
  • An interview of CNN's Nima Elbagir in Esquire: "so much of the story has gone unnoticed in the West. Amini was Kurdish, an ethnic minority in Iran that has faced persecution since well before the Islamic Revolution in 1979" (21 Oct 2022)
  • An interview of Iranian scholar Fatemeh Shams in the New Yorker that includes discussion about "the place and importance of Iran’s Kurdish minority in the uprising" (2 Oct 2022).

  Beccaynr (talk) 00:55, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

  So... RFC? Levivich (talk) 01:20, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

  I suggest so. TarnishedPath^talk 04:27, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Is this discussion settled? TarnishedPath^talk 12:49, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

This discussion has become a bit fragmented, but I mentioned above [33] that think it would be helpful to conduct further research in scholarly sources in advance of considering and/or developing an RfC. Beccaynr (talk) 16:43, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

I took a quick look:

• Journal of Middle East Women's Studies doi:10.1215/15525864-10815679 young Kurdish Iranian woman, Jina (Mahsa) Amini
• Critical Sociology doi:10.1177/08969205231176051 Jîna Amini, a 22-year-old Kurdish woman
• Survival doi:10.1080/00396338.2022.2150441 Mahsa Amini, a 22-year-old woman from Iran’s Kurdistan region
• Journal of Democracy doi:10.1353/jod.2023.0019 the death of the Kurdish Mahsa Zhina Amini
• Dissent doi:10.1353/dss.2023.0032 Mahsa (Jina) Amini, a twenty-two-year-old Kurdish woman (not a peer reviewed journal, but written by scholars)
• Rowman & Littlefield book, p. 3 22-year-old Kurdish woman, Mahsa Amini
• but this Iranian Studies article doi:10.1017/irn.2023.18 (TWL link) says just 22-year-old Mahsa Amini and mentions she comes from "the Kurdish region" in the third paragraph

There are over 1,000 GS hits for "Mahsa Amini" (with quotes) [34], it seems many of them aren't "real" scholarship (e.g., undergrad papers), not sure if these are representative or not. Levivich (talk) 19:39, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

I don't know if you're going to find a tonne of scholarship on something so recent. TarnishedPath^talk 02:04, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

This conversation just ceased without any conclusion. Is this settled? TarnishedPath^talk 01:54, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

It is very well established, by countless sources (many mentioned above ...and why sources would need to be scholarly, I cannot begin to understand. This isn't a scientific question), that she was Kurdish. It would be ridiculous to deny this. I see no reason to describe her as "Kurdish-Iranian", rather than simply "Kurdish", but either is acceptable. "Iranian", however, would not.
The talk of how ethnicity "should not" be mentioned, according to MOS:ETHNICITY, is clearly not applicable, here. In part due to the importance of her ethnicity to the events (as mentioned above), and in part due to how her ethnicity/identity, and that of all Kurds in Iran, is constantly being denied/erased, in an act of cultural genocide (which should not be approved of, or supported, merely to satisfy MOS:ETHNICITY), which is also apparent in how/why she is officially registered as being named "Mahsa", despite actually being named "Jina".--94.255.132.163 (talk) 19:11, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 December 2023

Sakharov Prize

The Award Ceremony

the award ceremony

The EP 2023 Sakharov Prize for Freedom of Thought was awarded to Jina Mahsa Amini and the Woman, Life, Freedom movement in Iran, in a ceremony on 12 December, 2023. The laureates were represented by Saleh Nikbakht, academic and lawyer representing Mahsa Amini’s family; and Afsoon Najafi and Mersedeh Shahinkar, Iranian women's rights defenders who left Iran in 2023. Mahsa Amini's parents and brother were stopped from boarding their flight and had their passports confiscated. They were travelling to Strasbourg to be presented with the EU's Sakharov Prize. GolistanK (talk) 18:48, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate.Shadow311 (talk) 19:37, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

@Shadow311, "change X to Y" format" is for whenever you want to change some part of the text.. but here nothing is going to be changed. This is a new happened event which is directly related to this article and should be added to it after the section of "Sakharov Prize". So please add this new text with the new sources to the article. GolistanK (talk) 12:10, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

@GolistanK you at least need to indicate that you want the text to be added instead of saying nothing but the text. Shadow311 (talk) 14:03, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

@Shadow311, Ok, sorry... Please forgive me .. and Please add the text to the article.. Thank you GolistanK (talk) 15:42, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

References