Talk:List of British flags/Archive 1

Archive 1

Regional Flags

Would it be a good idea to divide these between 'historical' and modern inventions? Its just the confusion that things like the BBC created flag of devon cause when put next to some of the rather interesting old flags. (BM) 86.136.230.235

Proposal to merge into the main Union Jack article

Union Jack is located here: Talk:Union Jack#Merge "List of British flags" into "Union Jack".--Mais oui! 20:10, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Edits of 22:54-55, 15 February 2006

Anyone confused with the edit summary should know that the edit of 22:54 was not a self reversion as it says in the log; I mistook this page for another. Greentubing 09:57, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

dates of flags

does c900 mean the 9th centuary or the 900s —Preceding unsigned comment added by Euano (talk • contribs) 16:00, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

- it means "around the year 900" Astrotrain 08:55, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Cross of St. George in Scotland

Should the Cross of St. George (English Flag) be freely flown from any building in Scotland? For the purposes of this discussion it will be assumed that no other flag will be flown with it and the building in question is a public house and the flag shares the wall it is mounted on (without a flag pole) with advertisements for makes of beer.

I think it would be an insult to every Scotsman/woman as well as an insult to the people of England. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.163.69.228 (talk • contribs) 09:40, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Why should it not be? IKEA in Glasgow flies the Sweddish flag for example. And the Scottish National Party in Stornoway flew the English flag on St George's Day. Astrotrain 11:36, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I refuse to believe that Stornaway flew the St. Georges Cross on it's own without the Union Jack or Saltire being present with it. It is also true to say that St. Georges Day is one of Twenty Three days in the year when it is allowed to fly the Flag of St. George from Government buildings. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.163.69.228 (talk • contribs) 09:21, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• See [1] for pictures, the Saltire does fly alongside though. The Union Flag flies on government buildings on St Georges Day, and the English flag- and only in England. See Flag of the United Kingdom for all flag days. Astrotrain 10:21, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

As a Briton living in England (I consider myself British first and foremost) I would not be at all bothered to see a Scottish saltire flying from any building in England. As for the flying of the cross of St. George being an "insult" to the Scots, the overly-sensitive attitude of some Scots towards the flying of English flags in Scotland often appears petty.

To say that the overly-sensitive attitude of some Scots appears petty you must also acknowledge the similar attitudes of some English. In my opinion (I am a Scot) I think that English and Scots that are offended by the flying of eachother's flags are just as petty as eachother. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.99.118.142 (talk) 15:45, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

There is no legal or traditional impediment against flying a British flag (that is to say a flag from or of the island of Britain) anywhere else in Great Britain. Indeed, there is a hotel on Holy Island in Northumbria that flies the flag of Yorkshire!

A regional flag

It's totally unofficial but I've just uploaded the flag of Buckinghamshire in .png format to use in my own signature. It's not particularly well produced (there's a line down the middle for example) but if anyone feels the need and uploads a better version in .svg format please let me know. -- Francs2000 16:47, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

British Flag?

Is there a flag for Britain any more? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.164.3.90 (talk • contribs) 17:20, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Flag of the East India Company

==Towards the bottom of the page, the flag of the East India Company is erroneously shown with a St. George's cross in the canton. Since 1707, the Union Flag has been in the canton of this flag.

Ensign of the Commissioners of the Northern Lights

Is that the correct title? Their website refers to The Commissioners of Northern Lighthouses. --jmb 09:20, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Broken images

Why do so many of these images show up as broken red links? --Masamage 20:05, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Saint Patrick's Flag in series?

Template:UKFlags makes up a series of articles with this as the main topic. Should Saint Patrick's Flag be added to that series? --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 03:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Please continue this discussion at Talk:Saint Patrick's Flag

St Patrick's Flag

I'm in favour of keeping St Patrick's Flag in the article, as it's a key component of the Union Flag - basically Northern Ireland's bit. Ireland may no longer be part of the UK, but note that this article is flags of "the United Kingdom and related territories. [emphasis mine]". For the time period clearly stated in the table, Ireland was most certainly a related territory. Indeed, many of the flags of the overseas territories and crown dependancies are no longer - or never were - part of the UK, and should hence be removed under such a strict definition of 'British'. --Scott Wilson 18:21, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

• It's not a national flag- moved to historical section. Astrotrain 18:26, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Defaced?

In all fairness to those from Ireland isn't it rather rude to say that the flag was "Defaced" with the Irish harp?

No, because that is the correct term for placing a badge or other device over a pre-existing flag design. Another example would be the Australian flag - that is a Blue ensign defaced with a southern cross design. In the context of flags, 'defaced' is not a derogatory term. Martocticvs 18:52, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

BBC

One flag that I can't find anywhere, with a GOOGLE search etc, is the old BBC flag. Modern one is just "BBC" on the flag but I think it was blue with a circle and globe perhaps but a long time since I saw it flying. I will check some more books later but thought it could be a useful one to add to various institutions. --jmb 01:22, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Mercia

The Symbols, Standards, Flags and Banners of Ancient and Modern Nations By George Henry Preble refers to the "golden dragon, standard of Wessex" [2] --jmb 11:51, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Also The History and Antiquities of Boston: and the villages of Skirbeck,Fishtoft, Freiston,... By Pishey Thompson

"The banner displayed by Ethelbald .... was a golden dragon which became adopted as the flag of Mercia" [3] --jmb 11:54, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry first reference was Wessex. Was Mercia ruled by Wessex for a time and used their flag during that period? --jmb 12:28, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

This reference is very ambiguous The Encircled Serpent: A Study of Serpent Symbolism in All Countries and Ages By M Oldfield Howey [4] --jmb 12:34, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Contributor TharkunColl is clearly determined to foist an invented Mercian flag of some sort upon Wikipedia for some obscure reason of his own. His own Talk page indicates he is relentless in pursuing POV with numerous warnings about his conduct, and other users have tried and failed to get rid of this imaginary flag. I'm afraid I have other things to do than pursue revert wars. However, for the record (as Wikipedia is a fact-based online encyclopedia, and it would be on my conscience if anybody was misled by TharkunColl's contribution), there is no evidence from any of the surviving Anglo-Saxon literature or archaeological discoveries of a Mercian flag comprising a white or golden dragon, and none of the standard academic publications or websites on Mercia or vexillology refer to any such flag.

Ulster Banner

The Ulster Banner is currently used in this article to represent the Flag of Northern Ireland, however, this was the flag which represent the former government of Northern Ireland which ended in the 1970's and is no longer the official flag of Northern Ireland. Should we keep the flag regardless, replace it with another flag or leave it blank until another is introduced? regards--Vintagekits 16:59, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

• It is regarded as the de-facto flag in the absence of anything offical- it is noted as unoffical here. It is used by the Irish Football Association, UEFA, the Commonwealth Games etc. Just because the Government of Northern Ireland was abolished in the 1970s did not mean that the flag went out of use- it is clearly used by various bodies as the de-facto flag of Northern Ireland. Astrotrain 17:24, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

• The flag is called the Ulster Banner, not the Flag of Northern Ireland, so it is being misrepresented in this article.--Vintagekits 17:32, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

The flag is called "the Flag of Northern Ireland" or "the Northern Ireland flag" or "the Northern Irish flag". So it was not being "misrepresented" in the article before political POV got to it. -- Mal 16:16, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

The de-facto flag of Northern Ireland is the Union Flag, not the Ulster Banner. The Ulster banner may be used by other non-government organisations in various capacities, but it is not an officially sanctioned flag any longer, and technically should go in the historic flags section. Martocticvs 18:15, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Partially correct - the Union Flag is the de facto national flag and the "Ulster Banner" is the de facto regional flag. Jonto 19:56, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Good point Martocticvs, I support it being point in the historical flags section and being replaced with the flag of the NI Assembly if/when it gets up and running.--Vintagekits 18:53, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

It is not a historical flag- you keep ignoring the fact it is currently used as the defacto flag of Northern Ireland by the various sport bodies. The Assembly doesn't even have a flag- and if it did- it would not be a national flag. Astrotrain 20:20, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

It is not recognised or sanctioned as the flag of Northern Ireland by the government of the United Kingdom, and has not been since the 70s - therefore it is an historical flag, regardless of its status with various sporting bodies. Flags of sports organisations do not constitute national flags in the absence of any officially declared flag, regardless of how the flag may have been used in the past. The fact remains that the flag directed to be used on government buildings in Northern Ireland is at all times the Union Flag. To list the Ulster Banner as being NI's national flag because of the aforementioned sporting affiliations is entirely unencyclopædic. Martocticvs 20:45, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

The National sporting bodies use the national flag- the unoffical Flag of Northern Ireland. Clearly this is the flag being used at national sporting events. Witness the proud athletes of Northern Ireland marching behind thier flag at Melbourne in 2006. The UK government has not decided anything on this issue- except that theSecretary of State for NI issued some regulations governing a handful of buildings under his control- if that is what you are referring to. Astrotrain 21:17, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually the IFA dont use it. But that is immaterial - its a historic flags so should be moved to the historical section and replaced.--Vintagekits 22:04, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

It is clearly not historical if it is still being used for offical events. I would advise you not to let your own POV infulence your editing. Astrotrain 10:38, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

It hasn't been the official flag since the 1970's. It is not used by the government in Northern Ireland nor is it used by the suspend assembly nor will be used by the new assembly that is forthcoming. Therefore it is a historic flag as you have been informed by a number of editors. The consensus thus far is to remove it to the historic section and as Logoistic suggested leave an additional note diverting to the Northern Ireland flag issue page. Stop edit warring and leave it at the consensus position.--Vintagekits 11:18, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

The Assembly doesn't have a flag. The Flag is clearly used in an offical capacity by various international bodies as the defacto flag of Northern Ireland. If people are offended by the flag then tough- Wikipedia is not censored. Many reputable flag sites will list this as the Unoffical Flag of Northern Ireland- there is no reputable source that would agree it is an historical flag. Astrotrain 12:09, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

It is used in the commonwealth games - its is not been used since the 1970's in any legal, official or governmental capacity - therefore it is historic and no matter how much POV pushing can change that.--Vintagekits 12:47, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

It is not historic if you are admitting it is still used, is it? It is de facto. I will post no further comment here as this issue is getting rather long in the tooth. Jonto 19:59, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

This page is about flags offical use. A lot of flags that are historic are "still used" - but they are still historic flags!--Vintagekits 20:08, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Vintagekits, the Ulster Banner is a Historical flag, this flag was only used between 1953-72 as an offical flag of the government of Northern Ireland, it has not been officaly used since then. The use of the UB as a symbol by sporting bodies dosent give the flag any offical status even as a de facto flag, to suggest otherwise is POV. --padraig3uk 01:30, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Current use (as demonstrated by reliable sources) means it cannot be historical (going by the usual defintion of that word). A neutral point of view points out it is unoffical, it is the flag of the former government, is used by unionists, is used by sporting bodies. Astrotrain 11:38, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Flags.net is not a reliable source - it is a shop and infact as witnessed by a number of editors during this discussion the decription of the Ulster Banner on that site has recently changed. As with other flags its official use has has ended and it is therefore an historic flag.--Vintagekits 11:51, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Astrotrain, flags.net has this to say about the Ulster Banner: Northern Ireland (unofficial) [3:5] This flag is a banner of the arms of the old Government of Northern Ireland. The flag ceased to be official in 1973, but continues to be used by Unionists. On no account should it be used for official purposes. That clearly supports the arguement that the flag is not offical and should not be used. Why do you keep pointing out its use by some sports bodies, the use by them of any flag or symbol has no bearing on the status of the flag. A NPOV is not protraying the flag as something its not, it should be moved to the Historical flags section.--padraig3uk 12:18, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

The text in the box is correctly referenced to flags.net which states it is the former government flag and is still used today. The references to the international sporting bodies shows the flag is still being used as the Flag of Northern Ireland (unoffical). It is essential for NPOV that you do not remove valid references to reputable sources. Astrotrain 13:04, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I think you maybe be missing the point, some sporting bodies use it as the Unofficial Flag of Northern Ireland but that does not make it the especially as others organisations and bodies that represent NI dont not use it as the unofficial flag, just because FIFA and the Commonwealth Games committee use it doesnt mean it is. The current description of the flag in accurate and NPOV and draws attention to the wider issue which is fully discussed on the other page. Secondly flags.net is not a reliable source. regards--Vintagekits 13:11, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Astrotrain, Flags.net is a commercial site that sells flags, and even at that it states but continues to be used by Unionists you are aware that Unionists and Loyalist parlaimilitaries use the flag to try to intimidate the nationalist community. The Link provided by Vintagekits to the Flag of Northern Ireland covers the dispute and useage of the flag in detail in a NPOV manner.--padraig3uk 13:16, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Graham Bartram runs the World Flag Database. He is a highly respected vexillologist and is currently Secretary-General for Congresses of FIAV (Fédération internationale des associations vexillologiques). He is also the Chief Vexillologist of the Flag Institute. Your point about intimidation is irrelevant as Wikipedia is not censored. Removal of referenced material to reliable sources is not allowed. Astrotrain 16:26, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Removal of referenced sources would normaly not be allowed, but in this case Vintagekits replaced it to a wiki article that explains the issue of the Northern Ireland flag in more detail, giving both sides of the dispute and also provides referenced sources, so this is not a issue.--padraig3uk 16:38, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Then we should just say Flag of Northern Ireland (unoffical) then and restore the reference. You can't just state the former usage part without stating the current usage. Astrotrain 16:40, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

The is no Flag of Northern Ireland - there is an article which explains that, that is why I put the link to that in the text! Flags.net does not superceed British Law!--Vintagekits 16:46, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

This is an article on OFFICAL FLAGS, the Ulster Banner dosen't come into that category as a National Flag, so reference to its current use by a sports organisation, or extreme Loyalist or Unionist groups is not necessary, all that info is dealt with in the link proved by Vintagekits.--padraig3uk 16:46, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

It is an article on flags offical and unoffical. And we have a reliable source to back up (the World Flag Database, as well as references to FIFA, UEFA and CGF. Astrotrain 16:50, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Where in the CG or FIFA page does it state that this is the flag of NI? do you think that Flags.net superceeds British Law on flags? By constantly reverting against consensus you are creating an edit war, please stop.--Vintagekits 16:52, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

The Ulster Banner is not an National Flag, stop trying to promote this flag has something it is not since 1972.--padraig3uk 17:24, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

• I am not promoting it- I am using valid and reliable references. Astrotrain 17:26, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Your using reference to a commercial that states it is not a offical flag and should not be used as such. Here is a reference to another site have you checked this one out [5].--padraig3uk 17:38, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

No one is saying it is an offical flag- it is an unoffical flag still widely used. The site you reference also backs this up. Astrotrain 17:53, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Its use by sporting organisations dosent count.--padraig3uk

It is not the unofficial flag it is the flag that is unofficially used to represent NI by CG and FIFA - that does not make it the unofficial flag - also it is not used by the IFA which is the FIFA and UEFA soccer body in NI and additionally it is banned from government buildings. To show it in the fashion that you have proposed in misrepresenting its status. regards--Vintagekits 17:59, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

It is used as an unoffical flag of Northern Ireland as clearly referenced. Wikipedia relies on whether something can be verified- not original research. I have referenced to reputable sources showing that it is still used. Removal of referenced material to suit a POV is not allowed. Astrotrain 13:39, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Astrotrain, the Ulster Banner has not been used as a Offical National or sub-Natioanal flag since 1972, 35yrs ago, you wishing it otherwise dosent alter that fact. Your sources show it is used by sports bodies, they don't count, what counts is the Law and rules of the government.--padraig3uk 14:15, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I havn't stated that it is the offical flag- in fact it was stated as an unoffical flag and referenced accordingly to reputable sources. You have already failed to get it removed from the Northern Ireland page and various other pages. Removal of referenced material to suit a POV is vandalism. Astrotrain 14:33, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

This article is of Official Flags, the Ulster Banner is not an Offical Flag, it once was one between 1953-1972 that is why it is in the Historical National Flags section, that is fact. Removal of material that is immaterial to the article is not vandalism, repeatly reverting edits to insert POV is but. As for your last comment, that says more about your own bias then anything else, you are the one pushing a POV in this issue.--padraig3uk 14:41, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

It's very difficult to have a discussion if you keep repeating the same comments over and over again. On Wikipedia we work with references to reliable sources, something you have been unable to do. It is clearly not an historical flag since it is still in use! It is an unoffical flag as it is not used by the government, that is why it is stated as the unoffical flag. Astrotrain 14:47, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that 1. you want to use an unreliable commercial website source as proof, 2. the source doesnt even back up what you are saying and, 3. you want that source to be taken over and above British law.--Vintagekits 14:58, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

It is very difficult when you ignore facts.--padraig3uk 15:08, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

It is very hard to assume good faith, when it has been repeatly pointed out to you that the Ulster Banner is not an Official National Flag, and your source Flags.net makes this very clear.

This flag is a banner of the arms of the old Government of Northern Ireland. The flag ceased to be official in 1973, but continues to be used by Unionists. On no account should it be used for official purposes.

It has also been pointed out to you that the use of flags by sporting bodies dosent confer any legal status on that flag, under British Law the Ulster Banner is not recognised in any legal manner. I don't understand why you keep refering to WP:V and WP:OR their is nobody using OR in this article. --padraig3uk 18:10, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Astrotrain - I think it's time to "stop feeding the trolls" as they often say on WP. These 2 have had their blatant campaign to impose their political bias on this issue for long enough - you are wasting your time to attempt to rason with them as no amount of reasoning will be likely get them to stop. Jonto 00:10, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Yourself and Astrotrain are the ones trying to impose a political bias on WP, we are trying to present the facts as they are, so I resent you implying I'm a troll. The Ulster Banner is a historical flag, is not a Offical Flag of Northern Ireland.--padraig3uk 00:16, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I have also noticed that the political agenda has come back with a vengeance. I'll not name names, but the articles affected are obvious and I believe it to be the tip of the POV iceberg. The article is about British flags. The specific section is regional flags. Northern Ireland is one of the regions, and the flag of Northern Ireland is the only flag that represents the region of Northern Ireland. This 'debate' is pointless, repetitive and part of a political agenda to remove coverage of Northern Ireland and avoid facts simply because some people dont care for those facts. I'll take no further part in this debate unless it has progressed substantially, or until such time as a new flag of Northern Ireland has been created. -- Mal 16:58, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with some of what you say mal and I would also be happy to see a Flag of Northern Ireland reinstated should one be created by the new assembly.--Vintagekits 17:16, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with WP:IDONTLIKEIT, this is to do with removing false information and POV from WP articles, nobody is trying to remove coverage of Northern Ireland, just trying to ensure that the coverage of these issues is based on facts, and not the POV of certain users. If you wish to take no further part in this discussion then please refain from reverting edits to the article.-- padraig3uk 17:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Some users are on a campaign to delete the Flag of Northern Ireland from wikipedia, and have now succeeded in doing so here (at least for now). No matter that reliably sourced material was constantly removed to suit a POV agenda and against the consensus of the users on this talk page. It is very difficult to have a reasonable discussion- especially when one editor repeats the same point over and over again; while another just complains he is being abused or insulted if someone disagrees with him. I will see if an admin is willing to look at the issue- it is ridiculous that reliable sources are being removed and replaced with POV and OR. Astrotrain 17:41, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Astrotrain, Flags.net is a shop and not a reliable source and the information in it didnt even reflect the arguement you were trying to get across, additonally Flags.net does not superceed British law!--Vintagekits 17:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Astrotrain, you accuse people of pushing POV, so could you point out where this is, give an example of where this POV is in the edits made to this article. WP is about presenting facts, concencus dosent apply if the concencus is non-NPOV and ignoring the facts, those promoting the use of the Ulster Banner are pushing as politial agenda that ignores the fact that it is not the Flag of Northern Ireland. I don't want the flag removed from articles I want it protrayed factualy as the former Northern Ireland flag, that has a place as a historical item.--padraig3uk 17:57, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Please see my comments here - NI's flag is NOT historical. Jonto 20:54, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes it is!--Vintagekits 23:04, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

This is what the British Government says about the Ulster Banner:

Lord Greaves asked Her Majesty's Government:

What legislation covers the definition of the form, shape and design, and any rules about the permitted use, of (a) the union flag; (b) the English flag (cross of St George); (c) the Scottish flag(St Andrew's saltire) (d) the Scottish royal lion flag (e) the Welsh flag (dragon); (f) the flag of Northern Ireland. [HL1099]

18 Jan 2007 : Column WA181

Lord Davies of Oldham: (a & b) There is no legislation that governs the form, shape or size of the union flag or the English flag (St George's cross). There are no rules about the permitted use of the union flag or English flag (cross of St George) on non-government buildings, provided the flag is flown on a single vertical flagstaff and neither the flag nor the flagstaff display any advertisement additional to the design of the flag as explained under the Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) Regulations 1992. Government departments are restricted to flying flags on 18 fixed days a year in compliance with rules issued by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. Consideration should also be given to flag protocol, which considers it improper to fly the union flag upside down and requires that the flag should not be defaced by text or symbols and should be treated with respect.

(c & d) There is also no legislation that governs the form, shape or size of the Royal Arms of Scotland (here referred to as The Scottish royal lion flag) or the St Andrew's cross, but the design is firmly specified in the Public Register of All Arms and Bearings in Scotland. The Royal Arms of Scotland can only be used by the Sovereign or Her Great Lieutenants when acting in their official capacity. The Scottish flag(St Andrew's cross) may be flown by Scots and to represent Scotland on all occasions; however, under The Act of Lyon King of Arms Act 1672, cap. 47 individuals may not deface the flag by placing a symbol on top of the flag or use it in such a way that suggests it is his/her personal property.

(e) There is no specific legislation about the Welsh flag design or rules about permitted use.

(f) The union flag is the only official flag that represents Northern Ireland. The Flags (NI) Order 2000 empowered the Secretary of State to make the Flags Regulations (NI) 2000, which governs when and where the union flag can be flown from government buildings in Northern Ireland on specified days. The legislation does not define the form, shape or design of the union flag. Flag flying from non-governmental buildings is unregulated.

For all flags, consideration should also be given to flag protocol, which requires flags to be treated with respect, not to be defaced by text or symbols or flown upside down. [6] --padraig3uk 23:49, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Nobody's arguing that the flag is official, but then neither is the Flag of Wales. The Northern Ireland flag should be re-inserted into this article instead of removing it to satisfy blatant POV that Northern Ireland has no flag. beano 11:41, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Beano, the Ulster Banner is NOT the flag of Northern Ireland and never was, it was the banner of the Northern Ireland government between 1953-72 and it status cease to exist when that government was abolished in 1973, to include it is promoting POV.--padraig3uk 11:45, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

You insist on discussing the flag's legal standing. As I have pointed out on several occasions, that's not what is under dispute. There is a flag, and only one flag, that represents Northern Ireland. Not including it is promoting a POV. beano 22:45, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

By the way, the very reference you keep citing from the Parliamentary question states "There is no official flag". The very fact they have to use the word official is implies passive recognition that there is, however, an unofficial flag. I propose the UB be reinstated in this page but the text reflect that it has no legal status or it is unofficial or some sort of similar wording (of your choosing if you like) to this effect. beano 22:52, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Beano the flags legal standing is what counts, the Ulster Banner only represents one section of the population, therefore it can never be regarded as a de facto flag, and whilst that flag may have had some status in the past it dosent have today, to use it would be POV, nationalists could claim the Tricolour is their de facto flag using your defination.--padraig3uk 22:58, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Beano the Ulster Banner hasn't been removed from the article it, it is where it belongs and the wording already states it not offical.--padraig3uk 23:00, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

It makes it very difficult to discuss this when you keep moving the goal posts. The flag of Wales also has no legal standing so if the legal standing is really your issue you should remove the flag of Wales as well. The problem is that the legal status of the flag is not grounds for inclusion with/exclusion from the other flags of the home nations at the top of the list. Whether it's accepted or not by the entire population, the flag is used to represent Northern Ireland. If this is a cause of great concern to you then perhaps your time would be better spent working to have a replacement brought in rather than denying the use of the current flag. beano 15:56, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Beano, WP deals in facts, the fact is the Ulster banner is not a official or a de facto flag of Northern Ireland as it never was the flag of the state but of the government that cease to exist is 1972/3, that fact may not be to your liking, but it is true. I have no interest in seeing or campaigning for a replacement flag, I'am quite content that Northern Ireland dosent have a flag.--padraig3uk 16:46, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Call me thick, but I just don't get it. How can the Ulster Banner be any less official than the Saltire, St. George's Cross or Welsh Dragon - until 1998 Scotland and Wales had no devolved government for a flag to belong to, England has NO devolved government, so while the Stormont government might have created the flag, how does its abolition change the status of it compared to England, Scotland and Wales? I really can't grasp this one. --Cyberbeagle 14:52, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Very simple the devolved Unionist Government of Northern Ireland was given the right to have a governmental banner, this right they took up in 1953 and the Ulster Banner was devised as the Governmental Banner, this banner was never given any civic status, therefore when the devolved government was dissolved in 1973 under the Northern Ireland Constitution Act 1973 the banner ceased to exist along with the government.--padraig 15:57, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Then what was the difference between it and the Welsh Dragon Flag, which was created at the same time? Does the Act *specifically* abolish the NI flag? (i.e. is this just one interpretation of the workings of the Act) Or if the Welsh Dragon was given civic status, why wasn't it given to the Northern Ireland flag? And more importantly, why can't I get our politicians interested in this issue????--Cyberbeagle 09:43, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Padraig is a bit poorly at the moment and may not be able to give you a prompt reply.

I certainly do not speak for Padraig and do not necessarily agree with his views. There is no primary or secondary legislation or case law that I am aware of (possible armorial precedents excepted) that have *specifically* abolished the NI flag (or in the context of this discussion, the Ulster Banner). In these islands we typically adopt the legal convention that what is not specifically prohibited is allowed (rather than the `European' convention of what is not forbidden is compulsory? - huge grin)...Gaimhreadhan ^{(kiwiexile at DMOZ)} talk • 10:04, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I am not to well up on Wales and it political situation, But the Hansard quote above states (e) There is no specific legislation about the Welsh flag design or rules about permitted use. that is the British Governments response, on that issue. But in relation to the Ulster Banner under British Constitutional tradition, a flags are granted to the government of an area, and not to the people, - meaning it has no civic status - therefore when the Government of Northern Ireland was given the right to have a governmental Banner this right was only taken up in 1953, and the design of the flag was taken from the Northern Ireland Coat of Arms granted under warrant in 1925, So when that government to which the Banner was given was abolished in 1973 under the Northern Ireland Constitution Act 1973 its flag also ceased to officially exist, its coat of Arms though still exists in theory or at least the warrant under which it granted does, and the current Northern Ireland Executive could apply for the warrant to be transferred to them allowing them to adopt the Coat of Arms.--padraig 10:41, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I am more inclined to believe the legal expert rather than WP:OR to suit a POV. Astrotrain 12:02, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Maybe you should read this Report its the debate on The Flags (Northern Ireland) Order 2000 between all the political parties in the Assembly, there is no mention of the Ulster Banner by any of Unionist parties, they concentrate on the Official flag the Union Flag and also discuss the Tricolour, so its strange that they didn't find the Ulster Banner was even worth mentioning.--padraig 12:13, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

These are powerful and persuasive sources for your stance, Padraig. However, I'm sure you are aware of the current atmosphere and efforts of reconciliation in the north. Everyone here is well aware of how prickly and sensitive the flag waving issues are and might deliberately have been skirting around the issue of "people's banners" rather than an "Official flag".

A strictly legal analysis may not necessarily assist our discussion of whether the Ulster Banner is, de facto representative of a substantial patriotic feeling in Northern Ireland and, thus deserves fair mention in Wikipedia.

low blow warning!: British Constitutional tradition is remarkably transient, flexible, fluid and poorly documented, Padraig. Remember that this is a State (unlike our own) that has no written constitution, no bill of rights and few safeguards against the "gentlemen in dark glasses with electric cattle prods" taking over save the suaveness of their bureaucrats and the graciousness of their Windsor family Royal Family.

Their Prime Minister, via the Royal Prerogative, has staggering powers of patronage and TB has recently taken their country into, arguably, illegal wars and warped the `traditional' make-up of their second legislative chamber without having to even glance at a constitution. I will say nothing about collective responsibility and cabinet government, let alone the charade of a representative democracy as opposed to parliamentary lobber fodder and the three line whip.

By contrast, the Irish tradition (carried in to such countries as Australia) has been to be very sceptical of the authority of governments. Our Irish Republican tradition is to assert that the nation, its sovereignty, boundaries and symbols is derived from the people and not handed to us by grace and favour of any government, foreign or domestic.

On this basis the Ulster Banner is as representative of Northern Ireland as the people choose to make it. And, as a short, cursory drive north (or a swim east) from my home would demonstrate, many folks regard the Ulster Banner as symbolic and representative of their part of Northern Ireland.

Now the trick will be to see if the PoV warriors here on WP can be as inclusive and tolerant as the current leading elected politicians in Northern Ireland...Gaimhreadhan ^{(kiwiexile at DMOZ)} talk • 13:25, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with what you say, but in WP for them to claim de facto status for the Ulster Banner then they need to prove it or its WP:OR, also for their argument to apply then the Tricolour would also have symbolic and representative of their part of Northern Ireland within the Nationalist community and also be de facto as this flag pre-dates both Northern and Southern Ireland.--padraig 13:39, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Your deductions seem justified, Padraig.

Now, since you seem to be the bees knees at providing references, can you help by providing appropriate citations for both these de facto flags to be represented in our article? Or would everyone accept my word (as an Irishman on the spot with large binoculars) that these are both flags flown with patriotic fervour in Northern Ireland?...Gaimhreadhan ^{(kiwiexile at DMOZ)} talk • 14:19, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I have been asking those making the clain for the Ulster Banner for sources to prove its de facto status for over six months, yet they fail to do whilst still trying to claim it is, so I have no intention of doing their research for them it would be pointless as none exist, therefore their claims are WP:OR.--padraig 14:56, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

The Tricolour is not a flag of Northern Ireland and is not used to represent Northern Ireland as a single entity as the UB is. The Tricolour is also flown in Glasgow by Celtic fans etc but not as the Flag of Scotland for example. Astrotrain 14:22, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

What has Scotland and Celtic fans got to do with this issue.--padraig 14:56, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmm... Complicated!! It's just a bit of shock that the NI flag does't officially exist. You still see it on many council buildings (alright, not that many with nationalist majorities!) I just really wanted to know what the difference was between it and the Scottish, Welsh and English flags and how one can be unofficial while the others aren't. I do agree that it is bizarre that the Ulster Banner has been neglected by Unionist politicians, like the NI Coat of Arms and the original Stormont Mace (lying in a dusty cupboard somewhere). Maybe they realise that if they raise the issue, then they'll have to address the possibility of a new flag, and rather have it still in continued use, even if unofficially. --Cyberbeagle 14:28, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

That is why they didn't debate the issue of the Ulster Banner in the talks in the report linked above, the Unionist know the flag ceased to officially exist in 1973, and the British Government wouldn't have entertained the idea, never mind total rejection from the Nationalist side on the idea of bringing it back into use. Don't known about the Mace I would assume its still in Stormont somewhere.--padraig 15:02, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Astrotrain nothing has been agree on Talk:Northern Ireland and the discussion there has nothing to do with this article as I have already explained on the article talk page. The Ulster Banner is not a current National flag and shouldn't be included in that section, also their is no source to support the claim of de facto status, so can provide one before including that claim in the article as you are aware that unsources material can be removed.--padraig 16:25, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

thats not what flag experts say. Astrotrain 14:50, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

What flag experts, can you provide a link or source for this, because the British government and current laws on flag in Northern Ireland say different.--padraig 14:54, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Links are already in the article. Please stop edit warring and discuss this issue in the talk page. You have already been blocked three times this year for edit warring on this article. Astrotrain 14:57, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Twice I have been blocked, Compared to how many blocks you have had about eight, and I see you have again removed the links that disprove your POV edits, and you have provided no links for any sources to support your arguement.--padraig 15:05, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Please be civil- I suggest you contribute at Talk:Northern Ireland where various editors have good suggestions and have reached compromise. Thanks Astrotrain 15:06, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I have never been uncivil to any editor, you have been ask to provide sources and have failed to do so, yet you continue to removed links and material that has been proven to you many times.--padraig 15:10, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Lets stick with the consensus position at Talk:Northern Ireland- to use the UB. It is obviously needed here anyway. Astrotrain 15:15, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

There is no consensus on that page that is a ongoing discussion, and the discussion on that article has nothing to do with this article, so I will ask again where are the sources to prove your claims.--padraig 15:18, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

The article has correct text and sources for Northern Ireland. Please don't remove sourced material. Thanks Astrotrain 15:22, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

What sources, you haven't provided any.--padraig 16:20, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

British East India Company

The dates for the three British East India Company flags do not seem right. Were they all in use until 1858? --jmb 14:31, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Astrotrains edit

You have stated that there is POV in the edit can you please explain exactly what yuo mean--Vintagekits 00:51, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Flags incorporating the Union Flag

What about flags incorporating the union flag i.e austrailia nz etc.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.11.195.211 (talk • contribs)

Too cryptic. What exactly about them?...Gaimhreadhan ^{(kiwiexile at DMOZ)} talk • 10:06, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Please stop the political POV campaign, and stick to the facts re current flags

Please stop removing the Flag of Northern Ireland from the list of sub-regional flags. The flag is the ONLY flag which represents Northern Ireland as a political entity as differentiated from the other political entities of the United Kingdom. The fact that the government of Northern Ireland is no longer in existance is irrelevant as the flag is still used (not just in the PAST, but also in the PRESENT) to represent Northern Ireland. Therefore the flag of Northern Ireland does NOT belong in a historical section. That anyone in particular doesn't like it is also irrelevant to the de facto status of the Flag of Northern Ireland. This is an encyclopedia, not a political correctness forum. --Mal 20:16, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

You are wrong - it has been fully discussed above here--Vintagekits 20:19, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I am not "wrong", and I was part of the discussion above FYI. --Mal 20:25, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Factually you are wrong. This is not about as you say "political correctness" - this is about being factually correct and not reporting someone as something its not. The UB has not been the Flag of NI for over 30 years - it is therefore historic!--Vintagekits 20:28, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Exactly - its about facts. And the fact is that the flag of Northern Ireland is used to represent Northern Ireland as independent of the other regions of the United Kingdom, the United Kingdom as a whole, the Republic of Ireland and Ireland as a whole.

You consistantly fail to see the logic, continually citing the fact that the government of Northern Ireland no longer uses it (when in fact the government of Northern Ireland no longer exists). You are more interested in peoples' opinions of the flag than the fact that it is used, and is the ONLY flag that is used, to represent Northern Ireland as distinct from those other regions I mentioned above.

The flag is still used, and is therefore NOT 'historic' other than by the fact that it has been used since 1924 or 1927 or whenever it had been designed (and officially by the NI government from 1953). The Northern Ireland flag has not been the flag of the Northern Ireland government only, for 30-odd years. It hasn't stopped being the flag of Northern Ireland. It wasn't liked by everyone back in 1972, 71, 70 etc. That didn't make it any less the flag that represented Northern Ireland either.

I fail to see the point in debate on this issue any more, and I intensely dislike the collaborative campaign that a small number of you have managed to organise in order to combat what I believe you think of as your percieved enemy.

You waste so much time in removing this flag from articles, wasting other editors' time that could be spent editing other articles. And now of course, you're threatening to have this productive editor temporarily banned for luring him into an edit war and into a breach of WP:3RR. That's quite pointless in itself of course, other than make said editor angry and ever more determined. But hey - its up to you how much you decide Wikipedia should be disrupted in order to satisfy WP:IDONTLIKEIT.

Alternatively, you could have the patience God gifted you, and simply wait until the new NI Assembly designs and institutes a replacement Northern Ireland flag that (almost) everyone will like. It would be interesting to see if there are arguments after such a time. --Mal 20:51, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

The flag was designed speciically for the NI Government its status ended when the Goverment was ended - therefore I am sorry but both are historic whether you like it or not.--Vintagekits 21:11, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Mal you state your self that the flag is defunct and unofficial so why should it be included here. --Barryob Vigeur de dessus 21:20, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Barry, I'm sure I answered that question above, with respect. "The flag is still used, and is therefore NOT 'historic' other than by the fact that it has been used since 1924 or 1927 or whenever it had been designed (and officially by the NI government from 1953). The Northern Ireland flag has not been the flag of the Northern Ireland government only, for 30-odd years. It hasn't stopped being the flag of Northern Ireland." --Mal 22:52, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Mal, the flag never was the flag of Northern Ireland, it was the flag of the Government, that is what you fail to understand, once the government was disolved the flag went with it.--padraig3uk 23:01, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I see. That's why it was dubbed the Flag of Northern Ireland and used to represent Northern Ireland, is it..? The case is clearly contrary to what you suggest, as the flag is still in use to this day - some 30-odd years after the demise of the Northern Ireland government. --Mal 23:23, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Its use by who, a few Unionist dominated local authorities, used as a symbol by a couple of sports organisations, used by the loyalist parliamilitary groups. It is not used in any offical manner, its use is excluded from any government building.--padraig3uk 23:33, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me but it is used in official manner. Please stop fabricating. --Mal 09:00, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

This is what the British Government says about the Ulster Banner:

Lord Greaves asked Her Majesty's Government:

What legislation covers the definition of the form, shape and design, and any rules about the permitted use, of (a) the union flag; (b) the English flag (cross of St George); (c) the Scottish flag(St Andrew's saltire) (d) the Scottish royal lion flag (e) the Welsh flag (dragon); (f) the flag of Northern Ireland. [HL1099]

18 Jan 2007 : Column WA181

Lord Davies of Oldham: (a & b) There is no legislation that governs the form, shape or size of the union flag or the English flag (St George's cross). There are no rules about the permitted use of the union flag or English flag (cross of St George) on non-government buildings, provided the flag is flown on a single vertical flagstaff and neither the flag nor the flagstaff display any advertisement additional to the design of the flag as explained under the Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) Regulations 1992. Government departments are restricted to flying flags on 18 fixed days a year in compliance with rules issued by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. Consideration should also be given to flag protocol, which considers it improper to fly the union flag upside down and requires that the flag should not be defaced by text or symbols and should be treated with respect.

(c & d) There is also no legislation that governs the form, shape or size of the Royal Arms of Scotland (here referred to as The Scottish royal lion flag) or the St Andrew's cross, but the design is firmly specified in the Public Register of All Arms and Bearings in Scotland. The Royal Arms of Scotland can only be used by the Sovereign or Her Great Lieutenants when acting in their official capacity. The Scottish flag(St Andrew's cross) may be flown by Scots and to represent Scotland on all occasions; however, under The Act of Lyon King of Arms Act 1672, cap. 47 individuals may not deface the flag by placing a symbol on top of the flag or use it in such a way that suggests it is his/her personal property.

(e) There is no specific legislation about the Welsh flag design or rules about permitted use.

(f) The union flag is the only official flag that represents Northern Ireland. The Flags (NI) Order 2000 empowered the Secretary of State to make the Flags Regulations (NI) 2000, which governs when and where the union flag can be flown from government buildings in Northern Ireland on specified days. The legislation does not define the form, shape or design of the union flag. Flag flying from non-governmental buildings is unregulated.

For all flags, consideration should also be given to flag protocol, which requires flags to be treated with respect, not to be defaced by text or symbols or flown upside down. [7] --padraig3uk 09:15, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Good point Padraig3uk, the Ulster Bannor is only used in Northern Ireland by the Unionist/Loyalist Community and Councils. Nationalist councils and people do not use this flag to represent them. As British law has stated, the flag is defunct and thus should not be flown in an official capacity. I understand this angers Unionists and sympathise because I too can understand what it is like to have the flag i am alligned to, seen as unofficial and unrecognised in my part of Ireland.

Would it not be a solution for Northern Ireland to have BOTH The Irish Tricolour and UK Union Jack as the official flags? This would accurately represent the peoples of that part of Ireland / or UK.

--  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  15:06, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Its not up to us as to what the official flag of NI is, yet I understand your sentiment. Perhaps what we should consider is that in NI people use a number of flags, whether official or unofficial, including the tricolor, the union flag and the Ulster Banner. The issue is dealt with at Flag of Northern Ireland and Northern Ireland flags issue , and as long as there are obvious links there, I don't think we need to have the unofficial flag included in this article. --81.132.246.132 22:54, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

There may be a number of flags used in Northern Ireland, but there is only ONE flag that has ever been used to represent uniquely the 6 counties of Northern Ireland. This flag has still common use today and therefore to not include, or to put it in a 'historical' section is ridiculous. The 'officialness' is not an issue as there is a column in the table called 'status' to explain. At the current revision the status is clearly explained in this column and I cannot see any reason as to why there should any issues with it (except of course for those with political agendas to remove it). Jonto 23:05, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Jonto I've had a good look at the article and what links here and I have changed my mind for two reasons. One is that those two articles I mention are not linked well, (one not at all). And the second reason is that the article already includes historic flags and therefore is not consistent. I have put more in the thread below "Northern Ireland Issue - Again" --81.132.246.132 23:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Three Revert Rule

Two of you have broken the three revert rule today - an offence with a maximum punishment of a 24 hour block. I don't want to ban anybody, or to have to protect the article, but if you continue to revert war instead of forming a concensus on the talk page, you will be blocked for 24 hours. Thanks, Joe D (t) 21:37, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Oops, somebody got there before me. Still, the threat of protecting the article stands. Joe D (t) 21:41, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Which two editors breached WP:3RR?--Vintagekits 21:43, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

• Setanta747 (talk · contribs)
• Padraig3uk (talk · contribs)

Joe D (t) 21:48, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I dont think Padraig did. I also asked Setanta747 (talk · contribs) on his talk page to self revert as he had breached 3RR - you told that he wouldnt. I would like to see a block put in place as he is disprutively editing a number of articles tonight and has breached 3RR.--Vintagekits 21:52, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

You would like Setanta747 blocked? I don't think that is neccesary, that user appears to have taken a break. Joe D (t) 22:06, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Can you confirm that it was just Setanta747 that breached 3RR.--Vintagekits 22:10, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Technically, you did too VK. From 3RR: "The rule does not convey an entitlement to revert three times each day, nor does it endorse reverting as an editing technique; rather, the rule is an "electric fence".[1] Editors may still be blocked even if they have not made more than three edits in any given 24 hour period, if their behavior is clearly disruptive." Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 12:13, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually I didnt, unless you are try to say that my edits were "clearly disruptive" - I obviously wasnt. In fact I even tried to avoid Setanta747 breaching 3RR by leaving a messege on his talk page. You can go there to see how well that went down.--Vintagekits 12:26, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Edit warring is considered disruptive. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 12:40, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree, its just good then that I was not editing waring! Are you saying I was?--Vintagekits 12:50, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

It looks like a revert war from the edit history, and that's why it was protected. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 13:27, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

As you can see outlined above I was not listed as one of the main protagonists. Its a pretty straight forward question that I asked you. Either you are going to accuse me of edit warring or you should out of decency strike through your initially comment.--Vintagekits 13:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Maybe I'm missing something, but from the article's edit history you were one of the people reverting the article, and hence revert warring? Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 15:10, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

You are, I was also disucssing and working within the consensus - therefore it would be folly to suggest that I was engaging in "clearly disruptive behavior" and I resent the accusation.--Vintagekits 15:18, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

The other parties were also discussing, and I don't see any consensus? Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 15:43, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Only 5 out of the last 50 edits mine, the consensus is taken from the editors and the discussion and !vote on the Northern Ireland talk page. So are you saying my editing is "clearly disruptive behavior"?--Vintagekits 15:50, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but you were still reverting. Just because you didn't revert 3 times within 24 hours doesn't mean you weren't revert warring along with the other editors. I don't see any consensus on this page, just a discussion. The vote on the Northern Ireland talk page was inconclusive and produced no consensus. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 16:00, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Well by your interpretation of WP:3RR anyone who ever makes a single revert could breach 3RR. I made two reverts yesterday - a breach of 3RR doesnt usually come into play until an editor makes FOUR reverts within a 24 hour period. If you think I breached 3RR please go ahead and report him - I will be making my report about Setanta747 later today.--Vintagekits 16:14, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

As Joe D has suggested, I have tried to take a break. I was going to take a break from Wikipedia entirely.. then I decided to take a break just from the issue in question. However, that has been made impossible because every time I use Wikipedia to look up information (my cookies log me in automatically), I get informed of messages on my talk page which are invariably from Vintagekits threatening me with action regarding WP policy. Common sense will tell anyone that there is disruption as caused by people who continuously revert, and there is also disruption caused by those who would try to get 'justice' done, by having an editor blocked etc. Should two negatives equal a positive..?

Frankly I'm exasperated. The points I made in my edit summary were completely ignored and my edits reverted. Obviously this is provocative, as anyone will tell you (note that I am not suggesting there was necessarily deliberate provocation).

I have not approached this article (other than its talk page) since Sunday evening, and I wasn't even aware that it had been edit protected from later that evening.

I would like to remind other editors that I only actually made three reverts during the period in question. My first edit (20:54, 15 April 2007) was simply that: an edit. Only four of the last fifty edits are mine, by the way! Despite all that, I admit that I had breached WP:3RR under the definition pointed to by Stu above. Logically speaking, I should possibly have requested an administrator or something. However, I wasn't to know that the reason I gave for my initial edit in my edit summary would be simply ignored.

Vintagekits has made his desire clear. I hope from now on, I will not have to be constantly on my guard from this editor. --Mal 23:21, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Wow! you make me sound very powerful! I'm not really - I'm just an ordinary man, nothing special, nothing grand - i'm slipping into song lyrics now so I'll stop meself.--Vintagekits 09:19, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Commonwelth Flag

A change may want to be made from Image:Flag_of_The_Commonwealth.PNG to Image:Flag_of_The_Commonwealth.svg as SVG should be used where possible. Richard Thompson (Talk! | Contribs) 11:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Edit request: add category

{{editprotected}} Could an administrator please add this article to the category Category:Lists of flags of the United Kingdom as the main article (i.e. [[Category:Lists of flags of the United Kingdom| ]])? Thanks. Bastin 20:35, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I've removed protection from the article - it's been protected far too long. Thanks/wangi 20:47, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Just added. Bastin 21:03, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Trinity House flag

Can somebody add the flag of Trinity House which is flown on most lighthouses and lightships in England and Wales. The Northern Lighthouse Board flag is there but not Trinity House's. I don't know if it would go under government or ensigns. I have a photo of it flying on Portland Bill lighthouse on the Trinity House page but we need to add it to this list and add a proper illustration of the flag. Tony Corsini 09:06, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Governors' flags

I don't see the flags for the Governors of the Overseas Territories (or the former one for Hong Kong). Is there any particular reason for this or should they be added? Biofoundationsoflanguage 18:36, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, I've added a couple. Sadly wikipedia lacks images for the bulk of the former Governors of former British Colonies. I also look to be adding the current Governors earlier on in the article. Biofoundationsoflanguage 14:58, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

WP:Flagcruft

Resolved

 – WP:MOSFLAG raises no such questions.

This page in a nutshell: "While the flag icons that many editors use in various contexts in Wikipedia articles can be useful in some circumstances, there are also problems associated with their misapplication and overuse. Words are clearer." However, since this is specifically a list of British flags, this advice specifically does not apply here and should not be sloppily cited by editors when making edits or reverts, in my opinion if words were indeed clearer in this article we would not picture any flags at all - which would be plain daft!...Gaimhreadhan ^{(kiwiexile at DMOZ)} talk • 09:22, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

WP:FLAGCRUFT was never actually this vague, and its current guideline version, at WP:MOSFLAG certainly is not. It makes it very clear that flags images have legitimate uses here. Marking this topic {{Resolved}}. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 18:39, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Error in Governor's flags

{{editprotected}} In the fourth line of the table the flag of the Commissioner of the British Indian Ocean Territory is misidentified in the Uses column as the flag of the Governor of the British Virgin Islands (given in the fifth line). Caerwine Caer’s whines 03:53, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Done. --- RockMFR 04:07, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Woops! Thanks for fixing it. Biofoundationsoflanguage 13:35, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Northern Ireland Issue - Again

It seems as if this has NOT been settled, certainly not if people are breaking the 3 revert rule seemingly every 5 minutes. Whatever anyone says, this means there is NOT a concensus. I have checked and there are two good articles which would bring light to the issues. This first is Flag of Northern Ireland which is just a link at the bottom of the page. The next is Northern Ireland flags issue which is not even linked from the article! Also I note that we can have the historic flag of The Commonwealth of England 1651 - 1658 and yet not the Ulster Banner 1953 - 1972. This is mad, bad politics above consistency. Those who are involved in this really should think long and hard about what they are doing. This is not a soap-box or a place to air your own politics. This is an encyclopedia! We can define what is on this page. If it is only current flags, fine, we must adhere to that. But if that is what is decided, we must provide obvious links to historic and cultural use of unofficial flags. So what is to be? Current official flags only? If so we have to move the other historic flags that are in the article to their own article. Or is it going to be current and historic flags. And when we've decided can we please link to those two articles! --81.132.246.132 23:13, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

The problem with the articles that you mention is that they also are plagued with the same problems of political editing as this article and are suffering the same edit warring by the same users. How do you also define 'historic' when a flag is in current use and when England, Wales and NI use a common law system, and where the status of flags is not even set down in writing? The NI flag is currently used to internationally represent Northern Ireland officially in sport and on some websites for British embassies. It was used officially by the former devolved government. Due to complex changes in government the only flag used currently by government when dealing with the region is the flag of the sovereign state of the United Kingdom and not one of its regions. I think this situation is explained adequately by the current revision. Jonto 23:30, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I may agree with you but many won't, I'm sure. This issue is bound to be contentious. I mean we are talking about a place where people paint their curb-stones to show their political identity and national aspirations. And anyone who didn't know that obviously hasn't been to Northern Ireland and perhaps shouldn't get involved in this issue. --81.132.246.132 23:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia, so surely the logical thing to say that the Union flag as the official flag currently and that the Ulster banner was officialy used between 1953 and 1972 but is still commonly used in non-official circumstances to represent the country? It's only a suggestion though. CR7 (message me) 19:58, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

It does say that the Union flag is the only officially recognised flag and that the former Government banner the Ulster Banner is still used un-officially in some sport competitions abroad when Northern Ireland compete as a team, that is not the problem, the problem is that some editors want to protray as still representing Northern ireland today in all aspects which is false, as it is not recognised by either the British Government or the Northern Ireland Executive which is the Government of Northern Ireland today.--padraig 21:16, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't see what the problem is with the article the way it is - the Ulster Banner is no longer officially used by government, and is therefore historic insofar as it is not a national flag in the same (official government) way the other home nation and Union flags are. From reading the talk page it seems the only counter-argument is to say that the Ulster Banner is de facto, and used by many bodies to represent NI. However, representing it as the national flag as "in practice" misrepresents the fact that lots of people have a problem with it, and don't use it "in practice"! That there is a section on NI that links the relevent articles on this issue, as well as giving some brief explanation about the use of the Ulster Banner by some organisaitons, seems perfect the way it is. Editors who feel the need to change it to a de facto flag need to provide a better argument on this talk page rather than simply get involved in revert wars. Logoistic 22:35, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I've been sent here by MOSFLAG to make sure the guidelines are not being misrepresented/abused in the course of the editing conflict here. Since this is an article about flags, obviously it is likely to be a bit less straightforward in deciding how/if MOSFLAG applies. After looking over the discussion and the article text I am of the opinion that the Northern Ireland section of Current National Flags should include both the Union Jack (first) and the Ulster Banner (second). Here are the reasons:

• The text discussed both, thus both are appropriate for illustration. This is the purpose of having images in Wikipedia articles—to illustrate what is being discussed.
• The MOSFLAG suggestion to not use politically contentious flags in inappropriate contexts does not apply, as the context here includes discussion of the Ulster Banner, which apparently is still in very limited use as a "Current National Flag" (for sporting events), thus it cannot be considered "inappropriate" by any reasonable application of the guideline.
• Since the Union flag is mentioned first and is the "official" flag, it should be displayed first. This should not preclude displaying the Ulster Banner, however, as the title of the section is "Current National Flags" not "Current Official National Flags".

Kaldari 21:36, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

As I said above the Ulster Banner is in the historical flag section of the article, with a link to it provided in the text next to the Union Flag in the Current National Flags section, and the the Ulster Banner is not a National flag.--Padraig 21:51, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Your statement does not match the content of the article text which clearly states that the Ulster Banner is still used as a national flag in sporting events. If this is not the case, the text needs to be changed. If it is the case, the Ulster Banner should be included. Talking about the flag in the text and then telling the reader that they need to scroll down to the bottom of the page to see what is being talked about is ridiculous. Kaldari 22:38, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

It is only used in some sports when Northern Ireland is playing as a team, Commonwealth games and international football, but not by other sports. And its use in sport is un-official and dosen't convey any status on the banner, it is not and never was a National flag, and its use as a governmental banner ended in 1972. And they don't have to scroll to the section it is linked.--Padraig 22:57, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I have to concur with Padraig on this; moving the Ulster Banner out of the historical section fails WP:NPOV, WP:V and WP:NOT#SOAPBOX. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 18:41, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

---

In Case anyone is confused as to the Status of Flags in the UK read this:

• The Union Flags and flags of the United Kingdom

The English, Scottish and Welsh Flags are National Flags, but none for Northern Ireland except the Union Flag.--Padraig 13:59, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

---

County Durham

http://search.stores.ebay.co.uk/county-of_Flags_W0QQsacatZ13881QQsofpZ4

http://ipedia.net/information/List of English flags

I feel aggrieved! can someone with help me get this on the page? Gazh 17:54, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

That's actually the flag for the City of Durham. But it's as valid as the City of London so I'll add it.

County Durham's flag is http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Durham-County-Flag-ENGLISH-ENGLAND-COUNTIES-FLAGS_W0QQitemZ180153474308QQihZ008QQcategoryZ122518QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Timrollpickering 18:14, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Added. There was a copy at Image:Flag of Durham.svg. Timrollpickering 18:19, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Well we need to change the section title to say something like "regions and cities" rather than just "regions". The "County Durham" flag is a bit of misnomer as it depends what "County Durham" you are referring to. The one you have highlighted is the 1974 non-metropolitan county version. As far as I'm aware, that isn't officially a flag, but just a flag-version of the 1974 (i.e. current) Durham County Council's coat of arms. Incidently, I noticed one flying above County Hall the other day... Logoistic 20:25, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

The crest is also used by Durham County Cricket Club which covers the historic county which suggests either historic ties or the lack of any clear alternative. A lot of flags (including several others on this page) have been designed simply by adapting the coat of arms into a flag - what makes one official? Timrollpickering 09:08, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I would guess the only way to get a flag or emblem officially recognised is by the Civil council?

This is a question i have noticed recently and mentioned it to some friends, if you travel up to Newcastle and Tyneside (i am from Sunderland and work in Newcastle oh no!) you see those 'Northumbrian' yellow and red flags/banners on cars, in cars etc - which is why i was wondering why is there no Sunderland/Wearside alternative - which is why i began looking for a County Durham alternative, as that would probably be my next point of civic pride. Gazh 10:27, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Tim: the County Cricket Club emblem is not quite the same. That emblem is simply the shield of the Bishop of Durham - blue background (with white lions) and a yellow cross. Durham County Council had the same shield up until sometime after WWII but before 1974 (I forget when), but then decided to add 5 black diamonds to represent coal mining. After 1974, when the non-metropolitan county of Durham was created, a large section of (historic) Yorkshire was included, and so the new Durham County Council (not related to the old one in any way strictly!!) adopted the old shield, but replaced a central black diamond with a white rose, giving you the one that you origninally posted! Logoistic 10:44, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

It gets messier! I hadn't spotted the differences at first. Did the Bishop or the county (the historic county is coterminous with the diocese) have the shield first? Timrollpickering 11:04, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I know it's messy, but not that difficult once you understand it (and the related issue of local government changes since the 19th century). The Bishop had the shield firt - just a blue shield with lions, and a yellow cross on top. I don't know how far it goes back, though. By "the county", I assume you mean it's means of governance - the first County Council was formed only in the alte 19th century, and I don't know if it's predecessors (namely the Court of Quarter Sessions) used it. In any case, the Bishops were the means of governance when you go back further. Logoistic 11:50, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Well it's more ambiguous but I actually meant any organisations operating on a county basis that would use the shield as a symbol of the county (as the cricket club does now). Timrollpickering 12:30, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I think, that the County Durham emblem you are refering to (the old one) is still on the walls at Sunderland train-station, i pass through it tonight so i'll take a picture and upload it if i remember on. Gazh 10:55, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Cool! That'll probably be either just the Bishops's arms (representing the council before they added the black diamonds), or the one with the 5 black diamonds (no central rose), representing the time when the administrative county of Durham existed. Logoistic 11:50, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Minor Issues

Pitcairn Island should be plural, i.e. the Pitcairn Islands. ChrisNolan.ca 02:53, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Edit request: "Other members of the Royal Family" section

{{editprotected}} Please replace the section Other members of the Royal Family with the following (replacing raster images with copyright problems that may be deleted soon, and putting copyleft vector images in their place):

'<redacted for length>

 Done east.718 at 20:15, 11/4/2007

Historical flags and ensigns

I moved this closer to the top of the article.--Padraig 16:21, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

There was no agreement in the mediation to do that, so I've reverted it. Astrotrain 18:23, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

You where the one complaining that the Ulster Banner was placed near the bottom of the article, and that it should be near the top, do you like arguing just for the sake of it.--Padraig 00:18, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I have to say you are acting like a complete idiot here Astrotrain. You complain that the Ulster Banner is not shown prominently enough and then Padraig make a big effort to appease you are show it in a far more promoinent position that before and you revert it! I just dont understand that and I also think there is no point in carrying on an sort of mediation with this editor and its just banging yer head again a brick wall.--Vintagekits 00:54, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Dorset Flag

This is disputed. That particular flag was proposed by one person with little response. It is not official. A commercially available Dorset flag looks utterly different. See Flag of Dorset. This image should be removed. White43 (talk) 11:56, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Alexandra arms.jpg

Image:Alexandra arms.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 18:37, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Cg-flag.gif

The image Image:Cg-flag.gif is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

• That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
• That this article is linked to from the image description page.

The following images also have this problem:

• File:Commonwealth Games Federation Logo.png

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --20:38, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Name change

The title of this article is inaccurate. A good few of these flags aren't actually "British". For example the flag of the Commonwealth of England goes back 1649, which as the article British people makes clear is long before this term was being used. I think clearly the easiest fix would be to simply rename the article List of flags of the United Kingdom. It would be much more controversial trying to actually determine which of these really count as British, which many of them don't. ʄ!•¿talk? 20:56, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

What a ridiculous suggestion. If you don't think certain flags are British then why would it be relevant for the United Kingdom? Astrotrain (talk) 17:33, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

What a ridiculous response... to be British and to be a subject/citizen of the United kingdom are often two different things, particularly when dealing with historical matters that include previous incarnations of the UK such as United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and even further back like I mentioned in the previous post. This really isn't a big deal just the article isn't accurate as it stands and makes it seem muddled. ʄ!•¿talk? 17:31, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

The article contains historical places that were part of the British Empire, not the United Kingdom. This name change is just another sad POV push from people who have nothing better to do on wiki. MickMacNee (talk) 18:06, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Said the person who was engaged in an edit war over the Tescos article. Thats hilarious! Whats next on your list of vital and important wikipedia articles to argue over, Sainsbury's? ASDA maybe? ʄ!•¿talk? 21:27, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

There is no need for personal attacks. Fennessy is known for disruptive edit warring and should not be attacking other users for disagreeing with him. Astrotrain (talk) 18:19, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

No you are must be confusing me with what you are known for, as thats the only way what you just said would make any sense. Your record speaks for itself; a block count in the double figures(mine; zero). Now lets get back to the article shall we?
The fact of the matter is this is a list, not an article proper. And as a list it is pretty appalling due to its muddled, seemly random content and poor title. ʄ!•¿talk? 21:01, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

So your response is yet another personal attack. Perhaps if you were to work with editors rather than attack them, we could improve the article. Astrotrain (talk) 21:08, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

No if you actually read the previous posts User:MickMacNee and yourself both threw personal attacks my way before I responded by pointing out your hypocrisy.
But anyway, this artcles intro: This is a list of flags that have either been in use, or are currently used by, the United Kingdom and related territories. That says it all really. ʄ!•¿talk? 23:47, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

RNLI: Listed Twice

The RNLI (Royal National Lifeboat Institution) is currently listed twice - once under 'Military flags and ex-services flags', and once under 'Other'

I'm not sure which is best - I'm a little uneasy about the RNLI being classified as Military/Ex Service, which would suggest 'Other' is better. But I haven't made any edit yet.The Stumo (talk) 08:05, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Northumbria/Northumberland

The same flag - the banner of King Oswald - is listed both as a local authority and a regional flag. Who keeps confusing Northumbria and Northumberland? Is this deliberate? The flag is that of Northumberland County Council but it's also generally recognised as the the flag of the former Kingdom of Northumbria, which is why they were granted it in the first place. I've changed the names so that Northumbria is the name in the regional list and Northumberland is that in the local authority list. The attribution is not "spurious" - go search! Paul S (talk) 17:51, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Changed the flag to that of Northumbria as shown in the corresponding article, otherwise once again Northumberland would appear twice. Note that Mercia, Wessex and East Anglia are also in this section. Description changed to "gold and red" since heraldic jargon is not used in descriptions elsewhere in the article. Paul S (talk) 12:14, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

The one Paul S has added is indeed appropriate as a regional flag for Northumbria; it is the banner attributed to St Oswald and the origina of the Northumberland County Council shield and the Northumberland flag. The flag of the county of Northumberland registered by the Flag Institute is the one that was there previously. With the Northumbria pattern on the page, the Northumberland flag can appear without lengthy description.

Howard Alexander (talk) 21:53, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Name of the Article

I reversed a move, and put "List of flags of the United Kingdom" back to "List of British flags".

The article covers more than flags of the United Kingdom. It covers dependencies and historical flags too. The editor suggested that "British" refers only to Great Britain. That is not the case, cerrtainly not these days. Northern Ireland is "as British as Finchley" though not in Great Britain. The name "British" refers to any British territory. Gibraltar, whose flags are featured is the article, is British, and not just in government. The title "List of flags of the United Kingdom" would exclude it.

The original move was no doubt made in good faith, but its effect was to narrow the article, not to widen it as intended.

Howard Alexander (talk) 22:52, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Well done, List of British Flags seems a suitable and acceptable title to me. No need for it to be changed to flags of the UK BritishWatcher (talk) 00:17, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

List of British Flags is the best title. The Northern Irish thing isn't a problem for anyone most people from NI. The more important point (constitutionally) is that British overseas territories and Crown Dependencies are not the United Kingdom (of GB&NI) but are British. Also the Church of Ireland, RNLI and others are not UK-specific organisations.  Roadnote  ♫  12:23, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Royal Standard of England

An image depicting the Royal Standard of England has been placed in the table showing the Royal Standards of Queen Elizabeth II. Can anyone provide a source that states categorically that this flag is currently used by the Monarch, is used by her representatives or is used in order to represent her in her absence? If not, might I suggest that it be moved to the Royal Standards gallery of the Historical Flags section. Endrick Shellycoat 01:02, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Have done so, also moving the Royal Standard of Scotland, as it too is not used by the sovereign in a personal capacity, but by her representatives. Endrick Shellycoat 23:43, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

The distinction is that while the English "Three lions" banner has not been used officially for many centuries, the Scottish Lion rampant is still used by lord-lieutenants, the Lord Lyon and, I believe, by the First Minister of Scotland, so it can escape being called merely historical.

Howard Alexander (talk) 22:44, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Disagree. See talk Talk:List_of_English_flags. Pmsmythe (talk) 17:31, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

You seem to misunderstand the argument concerning what is represented by the three lions, versus the actual use of the flag as it is set down. Neither I, nor anyone else I'm sure, dispute what the three lions represent. That is not the issue. I am only disputing the use of the flag, as I am not seeing any current usage of that flag in its entirety. The two contemporary examples, (three if you include both versions of the UK Royal Standard plus the Duchy of Lancaster), are not sufficient to support the assertion that the flag is currently used in the form shown to represent either England or indeed the Monarch. For example, the Royal Standard of Scotland does not represent Scotland nor indeed the Sovereign, but rather specific named representatives of the Sovereign in Scotland and, for some obscure reason, it is also used at the two principal residences of the Sovereign in Scotland when the Sovereign is not in residence. That is the only reason for its being included as a Royal flag in a modern context. There is no equivalent, (that I'm aware of), use or status afforded to the Royal Standard of England. Despite its displaying that which is still considered to be the heraldic symbol of English monarchs, and rightly so, it is not a contemporary form of flag which can be seen in use in any official capacity in England (or elsewhere) today. Please do not mistake this for an argument against the symbology, for that is not in question. It is the actual use of that symbology in the form of a flag as shown in the article which is. Please cite a source to confirm a modern use for that flag before removing it from the historical section. Endrick Shellycoat 23:37, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with symbology - whatever you mean by that. Come to that, please explain "modern context", "official capacity".

I had asked you to read the talk page, clearly you haven't, I repeat it below:

This flag is a banner of arms comprising of the shield of the Royal Arms of England; such banners displays the basic coat of arms only. A banner is not independent of the coat of arms. To say this banner was consigned to history is to say the coat of arms was too. And yet we see the Royal Arms of England in use today on the pound coin for example. In addition, the monarch’s own website states it is an Royal emblem of England: “the shield shows the various Royal emblems of different parts of the United Kingdom: the three lions of England”.

Further, it has been suggested that the Coat of Arms of England quartered with the Royal Standard of France somehow supplanted this banner. This too is false. Both flags were carried in funeral processions of Queens Mary [2] and Elizabeth I. I have found the reference to Elizabeth I funeral: "flags borne at the obsequies of Queen Elizabeth I — the great embroidered banner of England", Flags of the world, Harold Gresham Carr, Frederick Edward Hulme. The banner was in use 2 centuries later that the article claimed!

Just had a look at my copy of Boutell's, admitably old 1863, which states: "Since the time of Henry II the three golden lions upon a red field have always been held to be the Royal Arms of England ... [they] have been, as they still are, the "three lions of England." ". I doubt anyone would agree with Boutell's not being regarded as a reliable source.

In summary, the Queen's own website states it is an Emblem of England, the government archives record the flags was in use well after 1403. Boutell, an authority on heraldry, states "always been held to be the Royal Arms of England". Again, this is not about a flag but, rather, a banner, you need to understand what a banner is, how it is derived. BTW, I would like you to provide a reference for the Duchy of Lancaster banner.Pmsmythe (talk) 18:54, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Your interpretation of a primary source is all well and good. Your source states "Since the time of Henry II the three golden lions upon a red field have always been held to be the Royal Arms of England ... [they] have been, as they still are, the "three lions of England." " which is correct. As I stated previously, this is not a case of arguing over whether the three lions are a "Royal emblem" of England, but rather whether that same "Royal Emblem" appears, in a contemporary and official capacity, in this form...

Your source makes no mention of a flag. As for Elizabeth I, she was Queen of England, the last of which went by the name of Anne, who held that same title until 1707, and who died in 1714; hardly contemporary in either case! Your only example of a contemporary official use of the three lions, without any additon, is on the reverse of a £1 coin. Do you have a pre-2008 issue 5p handy? Shall I include a flag showing a crowned Thistle in the same section? If not, why not? For it too is a "Royal emblem", is it not?

You have yet to provide a source to state that the flag shown above is used in any official capacity today. I put it to you that your repeated edits whereby you continuously move this flag from the Historical Royal Standards section to that section showing flags having a contemporary Royal application amounts to disruptive editing verging upon vandalism. You cannot provide a reference to support the contemporary use of this flag in the form shown above. Its use remains restricted to that shown in the Royal Standard of the United Kingdom and to that pertaining to the Banner of the Duchy of Lancaster. You are responsible for the change to the article therefore the onus is upon you, the article editor, to cite a reference supporting your change!

I am prepared to give you one further week to cite a reference for the inclusion of that flag alongside contemporary examples of other Royal flags in use today, before returning the image again to the Historical Royal Standards section. As with the case of the Royal Standard of Scotland and the Court of the Lord Lyon, a reference from the College of Arms confirming contemporary and official use of the three lions passant guardant of England in the form of a banner as shown above will be more than sufficient.

Incidentally, you may also wish to comment here: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Mr Taz.

Endrick Shellycoat 20:02, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

I still wait for you to explain your weasel phases: "modern context", "official capacity", and now “Royal application”.

Your reference to a thistle royally crowned is pertinent since it amply highlights the problem: you appear to have a weak grasp of heraldry and its terms. The Royal emblem that I refer to is a coat of arms where as you reference a Badge. I repeat, a banner is nothing more that the display of a coat of arms, to quote Boutell, “it represents the shield and is charged as the shield.” – if you have a coat of arms, you also have a banner by definition.

The monarch’s own website states the three lions of England as shown on the shield of coat of arms (viz. gules, three lions passant guardant or) is a Royal emblem. Boutell’s Heraldry state they “always been held to be the Royal Arms of England”. These references are sufficient.

Again, you fail to comprehend the two references to the funerals of Queens Mary and Elizabeth. First, the dates of their use proves, categorically, that your assertion that the coat of arms, and hence banner, ceased in 1403 is false. Second, it shows that the arms were existence along side other coat of arms of the monarchs.

The banner has not been “restricted” as you claim and you need to research the standards of other members of the royal family if you think the banner of England is only blazoned on those you list.

Finally, putting aside your childish antics of sockpuppet accusations, I will continue to revert the banner back to the current section. That is the section where it was first placed and the references support this position; it is your edits that amount to disruptive editing. Whatever grievance you have with Mr. Taz this is not the place for it. Pmsmythe (talk) 21:33, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm, so the only light we have after all that heat is that you still can't provide a source confirming where and under what circumstances I can see this... fluttering from a flagpole. (BTW, the article is titled List of British Flags, not List of British Royal Emblems).

If I am no longer able to see an example of this... flying from a flagpole, other than as part of a version of this... or as this... then how can this... in the form as is shown, and referred to as a Standard, Banner or simply Flag, (let us not split hairs), be anything other than historical?

Again, I ask the question, to which location might I travel to on my next weekend off, or alternatively what state occasion might I attend, in order to see this... being used, as is shown, in the form of a Standard/Banner/Flag? (Other than of course at a sports event where any England supporter can part with a what appears to be a not insignificant amount of cash in order to purchase one of these. Should you be wondering, that would be a typical example of what could be termed use in an unofficial capacity. Hanging outside a Public House - not a Royal application. Post-Acts of Union 1707 - modern context. Clear?).

I look forward to the reference being posted confirming where, (other than outside pubs or within sports stadia), I can find this... [8] Endrick Shellycoat 00:42, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

{outdent} I won't be holding my breath for a reply: Pmsmythe - blocked indefinately (Sock Puppet of User:Mr Taz); User: Mr Taz - blocked for 1 week (Edit warring - Three-revert rule).

However, in the spirit of not wishing to enter into an edit war should I revert the last edit by Pmsmythe/Mr Taz, (with whatever IP address may appear on this article as a result of the above), I've taken the liberty of contacting the College of Arms to seek clarification re. the use of this banner...... and requested that they reply via their FAQ page in order that the information can be cited as per WP:RS / WP:V. Hopefully they're not swamped with queries and will reply in good time - whatever the outcome that should be an end to the matter. Endrick Shellycoat 18:06, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I have been (wrongly) blocked. But it only takes one incompetent admin, who didn’t even bother with an IP check, or even take into account the style/language of edits to block. But c'est la vie…

The fact that you cannot see the banner fluttering is not proof that the banner is historical. It is not about “splitting hairs” but, rather, a technical argument that you have failed to grasp.

Your terms “Royal application” and “official capacity” are still not clear. All you give is an example of what you do not mean. You failed to advance any definition or, amazingly, reference any Authority.

However, if you want me to extrapolate from what you’ve written; you are requesting a reference to this banner, post Acts of Union (1707), at a state occasion. Well it is mentioned in “A memento of the marriage of Albert Edward prince of Wales with the princess Alexandra of Denmark” [9]: “Standard of England and the Cross of St. George”

I am still waiting for to acknowledge that this banner was in use later than year 1403 as your edit claimed.

It will be interesting to reading what the College of Arms has to say as it would be to read the exact wording of the question you asked. PmsmytheII (talk) 15:49, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Intent on collecting more blocks are we? In which case, the last from me, to you: "The Royal standard of England is a flag in which the imperial arms of England, Scotland and Ireland are quartered, with those of Hanover" from A dictionary of general knowledge, or, An explanation of words and things ... published 1835. Not a great deal of distinction amongst many writers between what was British and what was English. Pity your ref. wasn't accompanied by a sketch or description, might have carried more weight. As for my question, (roughly), does the banner/standard/flag blazoned "gules, three lions passant guardant in pale Or, armed and langued azure" appear other than quartered as part of the Royal Standard of the UK or defaced as the banner of the Arms of the Duchy of Lancaster? Don't like the question? Then go pen your own! Or just go...Endrick Shellycoat 22:20, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Flags used by Merchant ships

Should the list also illustrate the flags flown by merchant ships to show their nationality? In most cases these will be red ensign based versions of the blue ensign based flags used by each country. 20:04, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Salvation Army

What is this doing here? DGG (talk) 02:08, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Ensigns split in two?

Why do we have:
Ensigns

• Blue Ensign
• Red Ensign
• White Ensign
• Civil Air Ensign
• RAF Ensign
• Civil Jack
• Sea Cadet Corps Ensign
• Air Training Corp Ensign

and then various standards, and then:
Military flags and ex-services flags

• White Ensign (again)
• Non Ceremonial Flag of the British Army
• RAF Ensign (again)
• Ensign of the Royal Observer Corps
• Ensign of the Royal Civil Defense
• Flag of the Joint Services
• Ensign of the Royal Fleet Auxiliary
• Ensign of the Royal Maritime Auxiliary Service
• Flag of the Royal British Legion (it's a defaced blue ensign; is it not an Ensign rather than a Flag?)
• Flag of the Royal National Lifeboat Institution (the RNLI is neither Military nor ex-services and it also appears below in Miscellaneous))
• Ensign of the Lighthouse authorities (the flag described is, I think, the ensign of Trinity House. The other Lighthouse Authorities (Ireland and Northern) have their own ensigns. So shouldn't the row (a) be labeled "Trinity House" and (b) be moved down into Government
• Flag of the Lord High Admiral of the United Kingdom

Don't we need one section like this:
Ensigns

• Red Ensign
• Blue Ensign
• White Ensign
• Civil Air Ensign
• Non Ceremonial Flag of the British Army
• RAF Ensign
• Civil Jack

• Air Training Corp Ensign
• Flag of the Joint Services
• Flag of the Lord High Admiral of the United Kingdom
• Ensign of the Royal British Legion
• Ensign of the Royal Civil Defense
• Ensign of the Royal Fleet Auxiliary
• Ensign of the Royal Maritime Auxiliary Service
• Ensign of the Royal Observer Corps
• Sea Cadet Corps Ensign

(below Civil Jack, they're in alpha order by organization) . . . . Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk • contribs) 00:37, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Gibraltar special treatment? Isle of Man? Alderney, Herm, and Sark?

It's not clear to me why Gibraltar gets a section of its own, while its flag and governor's flag are also listed inline with other overseas territories.

Unless there's objection, I will add the Gibraltar Government Ensign and Civil Ensign to the Overseas Territories section and eliminate the Gibraltar section.

I would also change the section above Isle of Man to be Channel Islands and Isle of Man (Crown Dependencies) and move the Man flags there. I'm not sure that Alderney, Herm, and Sark belong in this part of the list, as they are subsidiary to Guernsey-- perhaps they should be moved to the Counties section, although perhaps it would be better to list them after Guernsey, Jersey and Man, with a break in the table. . . . . Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk • contribs) 13:39, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Joint Services Flag

According to Flags of the World, which is usually right, although not definitive, the flag that was there was correct. The flag described by User: 94.170.136.121 is the flag of the MOD. It seems to me that we need an authoritative source -- one that is better than FOTW -- to change it. . . . . Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk • contribs) 23:11, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

As to the Joint Services Flag, it is well know enough. (I could take a photo of the one flying from the barracks down the road, but you'll just have to take my assurance that it looks right.) I've not seen the MOD flag, but if the image on FOTW was from Graham Bartram as it says, I think we can take it as definitive. Howard Alexander (talk) 22:14, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Having said which, I found that I have a book of photographs of London. A picture of the Whitehall ministries from the Thames shows the Ministry of Defence, with the Ministry's flag flying. It is the one shown on FOTW, the three stripes divided vertically. Howard Alexander (talk) 07:31, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Cornwall and its people have their own flag - why is it worngly shown in your Wiki UK flags article

(The Flag of Cornwall (St Piran's Cross) is the national flag of the people of Cornwall ... as such it is NOT an English County, Region, or City flag. I undertood that Wiki seeks to have correct information. It should not be shown it that section. I moved it to the only logical one - with the similarly acknowledged over time Welsh and Scots flags - but one of your members not only moved it back to where it does not belong but insults me with logically wrong and contitutionally uneducated nonsense, and then threatens to stop me contributing! Mr Woodward should be reprimanded. I find this very poor practice. The flag of the Cornish people has NO legal status and thus should NOT be under English County, Region, or City flag. Refer among other things to Kilbrandon Report, 1992

Chris Dunkerley Secretary, Cornish Association of NSW Steering Committee member, Celtic Council of Australia 122.106.175.53 (talk) 11:30, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate that you feel strongly about your national flag, but the editor who was reverting you is correct. Cornwall is a county so its flag goes in the county flag section. Whether or not the flag has official status is immaterial. Orange Tuesday (talk) 13:15, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

My comment on User:122.106.175.53's talk page was as follows:

"You have twice in one day added the flag of Cornwall to the national flags of the United Kingdom and once removed it from the Flags of England. You have been reverted all three times by different editors.

While some of the citizens of Cornwall might like to have the same status as Wales or Scotland, that is not the fact today and your changes violate Wikipedia's rules. If you change the page again, you will be blocked from further edits."

I believe that my comment was correct, but will certainly apologize if proven wrong. I see no insult in my comment. The threat, however, was real and appropriate. Repeated changes against consensus are not permitted. The correct course would have been to discuss it here, not simply change it a second time.

If User:122.106.175.53 believes that his or her changes are appropriate, by all means let's discuss them here. I think he or she will find that we can openly and honestly discuss even potentially controversial issues, provided it is done with respect for others' points of view.

To open that discussion, I will say that it seems clear to me that the flag of Cornwall does not belong with the flags of Scotland and Wales. Cornwall clearly has the status of a county, not a nation within the United Kingdom, which has four constituent nations, not five. On the other hand, I cannot say whether St Piran's Cross is appropriately flown as the flag of the County of Cornwall. If User:122.106.175.53 can provide an appropriate citation that shows that it cannot be used in that manner, then we should remove it. . . Jim - Jameslwoodward (talk • contribs) 23:40, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Scottish Union Flag

The citations given do not support the assertion that this flag was a legitimate flag in regular use between the dates 1606-1707: throughout the periods of the union of the crowns, the Commonweath and the kingdom of Great Britain. The flag should not even appear in the list. I don't agree with that (talk) 20:33, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Your opinion is duly noted. The flag stays. 81.154.105.107 (talk) 09:26, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

If the flag is to stay the description of it certainly needs to be changed to point out its status more clearly to avoid misleading people considering it appears right next to the proper union flag used before Ireland joined. This matter clearly needs more debate though, some form of change is needed. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:42, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Link

The link to Britishflags.net does not work 84.13.169.169 (talk) 20:14, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

HRH The Duke of Cambridge - Change

In the section Others Members of the Royal Family, it is written Prince William of Wales next to his standard, when he was appointed Duke of Cambridge last Friday. Please do check His standard just in case.Juan Sebastián —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.47.36.3 (talk) 22:09, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

File:Royal Observer Corps Ensign.PNG Nominated for Deletion

	An image used in this article, File:Royal Observer Corps Ensign.PNG, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests August 2011 What should I do?
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Southern Rhodesia Information Incorrect

In your article you state that the British ensign was in use from 1963 to 1980. This is in fact incorrect as Rhodesia claimed Unilateral Independence from Britain in 1965 and a new flag was taken into use that year. In 1979 the Zimbabwe-Rhodesia flag was used (Black, green, white and red) until 18 April 1980 when the new Zimbabwe flag was put into used. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.16.185.103 (talk) 19:31, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

File:Saint Lucia 1875-1937.gif Nominated for speedy Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Saint Lucia 1875-1937.gif, has been nominated for speedy deletion for the following reason: All Wikipedia files with unknown copyright status What should I do? Don't panic; you should have time to contest the deletion (although please review deletion guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page. If the image is non-free then you may need to provide a fair use rationale If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale, then it cannot be uploaded or used. If the image has already been deleted you may want to try Deletion Review This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 13:05, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

File:Saint Lucia 1939-1967.gif Nominated for speedy Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Saint Lucia 1939-1967.gif, has been nominated for speedy deletion for the following reason: All Wikipedia files with unknown copyright status What should I do? Don't panic; you should have time to contest the deletion (although please review deletion guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page. If the image is non-free then you may need to provide a fair use rationale If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale, then it cannot be uploaded or used. If the image has already been deleted you may want to try Deletion Review This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 13:06, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Similar page

There is an article called Flags of the British Empire with similar content. Since this violates Wikipedia policy, I think it should be merged with the overseas territories section of this article. Sayan rc (talk) 23:57, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Transvaal Flag

The Vierkleur shown on this page was the Flag of the South African Republic, when it became the Transvaal colony its flag became http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Transvaal_Colony_Flag.png And if it is listed the Orange River Colony should be mentioned as well\ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Orange_River_Colony.svg --Scottykira (talk) 10:42, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Can someone add Warwickshire to the county flags.

Wiki has the flag for Warwickshire here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:County_Flag_of_Warwickshire.png so why isn't it in the list for this page? Could someone who knows what they're doing add it to the list please? MidlandLinda (talk) 13:31, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

That is a banner of the arms of Warwickshire County Council, not the flag of Warwickshire. As such it is the legal property of the council and not the flag of the county-at-large. The county doesn't have a registered flag yet, but the Warwickshire Association has a flag proposal page. Owain (talk) 14:50, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Oswald consistency

Hi. If you search down the article for Oswald you'll find he's a saint in one place and a king in the other. I know that he was both, yes; I'm just saying that the article should refer to him in one consistent manner so it makes more sense when you follow what the earlier reference says about the later one. I don't know which is better; what do you think? Thanks and best wishes DBaK (talk) 08:48, 7 September 2012 (UTC)