Talk:Lady Saigō

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Saigō-no-Tsubone/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Ealdgyth - Talk 17:03, 21 April 2011 (UTC) I'll be reviewing this article shortly. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:03, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   A few spots that could use some clarification in the prose

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

   a couple of spots that need citations

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

• General:
  • I'm assuming that we need to italicise shogun and have so copyedited, but if that was not intended, please feel free to revert.
    • I think it depends on how largely you believe it has entered the English language. Is it as common as geisha and sake? Anyway, I'm fine with shogun in italics.
  • Cull out all of the links in the see also section that are already mentioned in the article body - see also is for links not already in the article.
    • Done.
• Early life:
  • "Though Lady Saigo's birthname does not appear in any surviving documents from the time, there is good evidence it was Masako (昌子), but this name is very rarely used." is in the name section but you state her birth name as definitely "Tozuka Masako" in the early life section. If it's not totally certain, the early life section needs clarification to make that clear.
    • Fixed.
• Relationship:
  • "However, Oai already had the attention of Ieyasu, which undermined the ambitions of the other women and drew their resentment." is opinion and should be cited.
    • Re-worded with additional references.
  • "While Ieyasu's marriage was arranged for political reasons, and many of his later concubines were chosen in the same spirit, it is thought that he chose his relationship with Lady Saigo, as there was no political advantage to it, and loved her above all others." is very long and convoluted and the last phrase appears to be just tacked on. Suggest reworking this into two sentences.
    • Re-worded. Boneyard90 (talk) 02:46, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
  • If Hidetada was the third son, with the execution of the first son, wouldn't that make the second son the heir apparant? Needs some sort of explanation why the second son wasn't considered the heir apparant.
    • Fixed. Wrote short explanation in a footnote. I was trying to keep the article focused on the topic person, and also, since much has already been written about Tokugawa Ieyasu, I didn't want to be too redundant.
• Death:
  • "...it has been theorized that she was poisoned by a maidservant devoted to Ieyasu's legal wife, the late Lady Tsukiyama." theorized by whom? And this is opinion and needs a citation.
    • Re-worded and cited.
• After death:
  • "By 1603, Tokugawa Ieyasu had recovered Sunpu Castle, completed his unification of Japan, and had become shogun..." this is jarring, as we're never told he lost the castle after entereing it in 1586?
    • Done. Again, I was trying to keep the article focused on the topic, but I guess I did zip through a bit. Added a couple sentences by way of explanation. Boneyard90 (talk) 03:32, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

I've put the article on hold for seven days to allow folks to address the issues I've brought up. Feel free to contact me on my talk page, or here with any concerns, and let me know one of those places when the issues have been addressed. If I may suggest that you strike out, check mark, or otherwise mark the items I've detailed, that will make it possible for me to see what's been addressed, and you can keep track of what's been done and what still needs to be worked on. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:26, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

• I'll do the strikeout, since I don't know the template for the checkmark, though I'd be happy to use it. Boneyard90 (talk) 21:22, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

• looks like just the one thing in "after death" to go? Ealdgyth - Talk 01:06, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

• Just resolved that last item. Any other recommendations? Boneyard90 (talk) 03:32, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

• Looks good, passing now. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:54, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Sexism?

Isn't the first phrase somewhat sexist? She is defined as someone's wife. Is Tokugawa Ieyasu defined as her husband in his article too? Pikolas (talk) 14:28, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't know how this passed my notice. In answer to your question, I would say no, there is nothing sexist about the description; it is about notability. Lady Saigo was notable for being the first consort of Ieyasu; and second, she was notable as the mother of the second shogun. She is remembered for these two identities far more than for anything else she did in life. Before her death, she would have most likely identified by those two aspects of her persona. In contrast, the main notability of Tokugawa Ieyasu was as "unifier of Japan", "one of the greatest daimyo", and other such superlatives. One would almost never identify him as "husband of Lady Saigo", because for one thing, he had one prior wife and at least 18 other concubines. His notability was not as a husband or master of a harem. For precedent, if you look at other articles on figures from the same period, those who serve higher-ranked lords are usually identified by that relationship. See Akiyama Nobutomo, Sakuma Nobumori, and Araki Murashige; these state in the first sentence or two that they were retainers or servants of one lord or another. Many of them are defined as someone's son. Tokuhime is defined as a daughter and a wife. Notability is not always self-generated, but often defined in terms of relationships. Boneyard90 (talk) 20:38, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

I suppose that makes sense. Perhaps the perceived sexism is a result of historical views of women. Still, that was a bit strange to read at first. Thanks for the clarification. Pikolas (talk) 01:15, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

No problem! Boneyard90 (talk) 13:59, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

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Shaved eyebrows

The first footnote brings up shaved eyebrows. My understanding was that shaved eyebrows indicated marriage, not coming-of-age, which a quick GBooks search seems to confirm. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 04:46, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Not all sources concur apparently. From the link you supplied, scroll down to Daily Life in Japan: At The Time of the Samurai, 1185-1603. Boneyard90 (talk) 14:49, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

If sources conflict, then we can't just pick the most convenient—either the conflict must be resolved, or the statement should be removed. I bring this up because I regularly come across (Japanese-language) sources that state such-and-such a figure in an ukiyo-e print is married (or recently widowed) based on the shaved eyebrows—for example, Hari-shigoto, Kasen Koi no Bu, Kōmei Bijin Rokkasen, Fujin Sōgaku Jittai and Fujo Ninsō Juppin. As it stands, Wikipedia contradicts itself. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 09:20, 2 July 2017 (UTC)