Talk:Kataeb Party

Fascist Party?

Please do not remove my additions to this article of 16/06/03. They are accurate and do not constitute vandalism. Thankyou.

Calling the party "fascist" and saying that they and Israel "were responsible" for the Sabra and Shatilla massacres, rather than that responsibility was alleged, is POV. This is an NPOV encyclopedia, and deliberately inserting POV does constitute vandalism. If you continue to call this party "fascist," I will continue to revert it. There is nothing fascist about its present constitution or manifesto. Whatever its roots have been in the past is irrelevant now. Please familiarize yourself with Wikipedia's NPOV policy before injecting such biased POV into an article. David Cannon 01:40, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, both Israel and Phalange responsibility for Sabra and Chatila massacre is acknowledged by both parties. How can it not be NPOV?

And Kataeb is still a fascist party. It still follows the teaching of Pierre Gemayel and still under the slogan 'God-Country-Family'. Very few fascist parties will admit such publicly, this does not alter reality. Thankyou.

Pierre Gemayel, in his later years, was one of Lebanon's more moderate politicians - too moderate for the liking of many of his contemporaries. It was he who signed the 1969 accord allowing the PLO into Lebanon (an action he came to regret); it was he who called for Syria to intervene in Lebanon in the mid-1970s (another action he came to regret) and refused to support Chamoun's call for a general strike against them in 1978. It was he who worked with Walid Jumblatt in the months before his death to set up a government of national unity in a vain attempt to bring an end to the civil war.

You say, "both Israel and Phalange responsibility for Sabra and Chatila massacre is acknowledged by both parties." False. Each party blames the other, without acknowledging responsibility themselves. I have no doubt that elements of the Phalange were involved in the massacre. There may well have been renegade elements of the Israeli security forces involved as well. That is a far cry from saying that they had the blessing of their leaders.

Neither party has ever been convicted in a court of law. Such a conviction may come. But until such time, the correct NPOV position is "innocent until proved guilty" - and that means proved guilty in a court of law. Not charged, but convicted. To say that allegations have been made is factual. To say that evidence has been produced is factual. To say that a verdict has been delivered is false, and I will revert all such implications.

"God-Country-Family" is a slogan used by many politicians, fascist and nonfascist. It proves nothing either way. To say that the Phalange has been accused by its opponents of being fascist, that is factual and acceptable. To say that it is fascist is POV, and I will revert it.

What is beyond dispute is that the Phalange ORGANIZATION was inspired by the Fascist movement. This does not make the Phalange a fascist party. A parallel example is the KMT of the Republic of China/Taiwan. Its organization was inspired by the Communist movement/Comintern. Does that make the KMT a Communist Party? We all know it to be strongly anticommunist. Like the Phalange, it has been accused of being fascist. Gemayel's organization of the Phalange along fascist lines proves nothing about his personal ideology: it only proves that he considered that organizational structure to be an effective one, not that he agreed with their policy.

Fascism is antisemitic. Do you think ISRAEL would recruit an antisemitic party as an ally? Talk sense!

Not really. The leaders of the Italian Jewish community (like any important person in Fascist Italy) had to be members of the Fascist Party. Antisemitism was very minoritary in Italy. However the alliance with Hitler and the Salò Republic moved the Party to antisemitism. Nazism is antisemitic, though. -- Error 01:37, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I have nothing to add on whether Kataeb should be considered fascist, though I think it's at least fair to include the history of its founders' inspirations, regardless of how he may've later moderated his views. I do want to note, however, that while fascist movements have commonly been anti-Semitic, there is no logical reason they must be. Their general shape (a law-and-order government supporting strong property interests (usually corporate), ruling over the "rabble", suppressing any kind of organized labor, making use of ties to religion and religious imagery) could theoretically be compatible with Judaism, and in fact I've heard some far-left Israelis refer to Netanyahu as a fascist. Some lefty Jews talk about how people tend to become what they claim to fight against. "Battle not with monsters..." and all that. Rmharman 01:11, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Besides, I think if you're going to make regular contributions to a controversial topic (as you have every right to do), it would be much nicer to log in properly and establish a formal identity in Wikipedia. Anonymous users are welcome and appreciated, but controversial edits bear much greater credibility if made by identifiable persons. How much notice would you take of an unsigned letter stuffed in your mailbox? See what I mean? Thank you also. David Cannon 21:21, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

David, thankyou for your reply. When I have time I will establish a formal identity. Several points: 1) Kuomintang was not a communist inspired movement. It was a fascist inspired movement, although not actually fascist. It took organisational aid from the USSR, not it's politics. The Wiki article on KMT describes it as Leninist and this is very inaccurate. 2) Fascism is not necessariliy anti-semitic, it is, after all, possible to be a fascist and a Jew. As Error has pointed out, it was Nazism that was anti-semitic. 3) Sabra and Chatila. While it is true that there has been no trial there is no doubt as to the responsibility for the massacre. See Kahan Commission. Surely a denial of a crime does not carry equal weight to the testimony of many of those involved? 4) I do not use the term fascist in a perjoritive fashion but as an accurate description of a movement. The Phalange was formed as a fascist party with a fascistic philosophy. The Kataeb Party today says it still follows the philosophy of Pierre Gemayel, it follows that it is a fascist party. I have included two web links: firstly to the official site of Kataeb, where the party states it still follows Pierre Gemayel's philosophy and where there are images of the nationalist Cedar of Lebanon transformed into a Black Arrow. The Black Arrow was, of course, a fascist symbol in Hungary in the 1930's and 40's. The second link is to a Falange party in the USA which contains blatantly fascist imagery (and also a denial of being fascist!) and from which parts of the Wikipedia article appears to be drawn. http://www.kataeb.com/ and http://www.falange.us/bashir.htm John Ball

Kataeb is highly concervative and confessional party, but I wouldn't say it's fascist because it is not ideologically opposed to democracy. Most if not all party members believe in democracy and human rights which is totally incompatible with fascism. Finally Sabra and Shatila was (partly) done by Lebanese Forces members, which was theoritically the armed wing of the Kataeb but was independent in practice.--equitor 06:25, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Since "fascist" is a very strong label, I think there needs to be something in the article itself that supports it. There is nothing that mentions even mention's the party's views other than it not supporting Syria's occupation. I am removing the category until someone can provide support. Lawyer2b 12:13, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I also removed the category "socialist" as even though it is named "socialist" it's views may not be considered as such. I think the article should cite the party's views (platform?) in support of any categorization. Lawyer2b 12:23, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

For your information, the original Phalange movement was a spanish fascist movement that was allied to Franco in the Spanish civil war. It is not doubtful that the lebanese version is very inspired of their ideological father. Also, in the Lebanon civil war, the Phalange militia had a fascist behavior, killing thousand of unarmed civilians because of their religious or ethnic belonging. The article should mension these facts in a controversity rubric or something like that to make the article as objective as possible. Kovlovsky

From what I have read, the Phalangist party was formed after Geyamels visit to the olympic games in Nazi Germany, he was impressed with the organization and wanted to achive something "similar" in Lebanon. Another interesting point about the ties between nazism and the Phalangists is that several of their troops carried hats with the swastika painted on them (eyewitness report by Robert Fisk during the war in -76) Toshotosho 17:39, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I intended to restore the mention of Spanish Falange but I couldn't find serious-looking references in Google. Could you find a confirm or denial from a trustable source? --Error 22:20, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

the main argument supporting the theory that kataeb are fascists is that they adopted brown uniforms and roman/fascist salutes in 1936? Hello? 1936? Let's call the Kataeb a "fascist party" when we actually find evidence that Kataeb fits fascist economic and social platforms - which is, unsurprisingly, does not. Resisting the Islamic genocide of native Lebanese aboriginals does not make a fascist party, if the parties militarism is in question. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.246.211.177 (talk) 11:01, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Image

I removed the current image. It says 'Yes to kataeb' in arabic and I found it highly irrelevant to the article and destroys its NPOVness.--equitor 06:27, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Pro-Syrian and Anti-Syrian factions

I thought the former president's faction was the anti-Syrian faction but this makes it sound like it's the other way around. The Secretary of Funk 02:50, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I think someone was either having fun or trying to promote a fringe point of view. I have fixed this. Jkelly 22:48, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Sabra massacre

In the discussion at the page top, it is stated that phalangists & IDF tried to blame each other for the S&S massacre, it is worldwide known that both sides had something to do with it, the issue being is what was the role of each party, not whether they were guilty or not. as for (innocent until proven guilty), well, when you have the motive, the bodies, the weapon, & the bragging of the phalangists leaders about it, you don't really need their confession to convince yourself of their guilt. I think their role in the massacre should be clearly noted on their page since this was their most prominant legacy.

The Phalange party still has the blood of thousands of Palestinians on their hands, this information should be added to the page.

• Now I was a big hater of the Phalange party I thought they were nothing but a bunch of pro-colonialist wannabe french fascist clowns.Now its true alot of them like to brag about sabra and chatilla and that really reflects what kind of people let alone "Christians" they are most however are fed up of their cause been linked to it when the palestinians get off scott free in the text books for a war they started. Some may live in a backward mentality and like taking crumbs from the west. You could say Its their attitude that helped destroyed lebanon.BUT The phalangist only started killing palestinians AFTER the PLO started killing Lebanese,

yes Phalange has many innocent people's blood on thier hand but Arafat and the PLO have EVEN MORE lebanese blood on their hand. Now that being said I dont justify or commend what the Phalangist done that was wrong however the palestinians during the civil war arent innocent of war crimes either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Miss-simworld (talk • contribs) 16:17, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Ideology

What is their ideology? Do they have one or do they just act on ethnic criteria? --Error 01:19, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Meaning

What does "kataeb" mean in Arabic? --Error 01:19, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd also like to see the addition of an explanation of why they are commonly called "Phalange" or "Phalangist". Rmharman 01:06, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Kataeb literally means "phalanges" (or "brigades"), and was adopted after Francisco Franco's Spanish Phalange movement. So there you go, both of you.

PHALANGE/FASCIST!!!

Pierre Gemayel was born on 6 November 1905, in the village of Bikfaya, Lebanon, where his family had played a prominent role since 1540. His father and uncle were forced to flee to Egypt after being sentenced to death in 1914 for opposing Ottoman rule, returning to Lebanon only at the end of World War I.

Gemayel, a Maronite Catholic, was educated at Jesuit schools. He went on to study pharmacology at the French Faculty of Medicine in Beirut, where he later opened a pharmacy. He also took an interest in sport, and attended the 1936 Olympic games in Berlin, where he observed the organization of Germany's Nazi Party. He admired the formidable and efficient organization and, on his return to Lebanon later that year, he founded the Kataeb El Loubnani Party in the west called the Phalange after Franco's fascists in Spain and organized it with a similar structure.

Charles Helou, who later served as Lebanon's President from 1964 to 1970, worked with Pierre Gemayel in the early organization of the party. By the time of his presidency, however, Helou was no longer a party member, and Gemayel unsuccessfully opposed him in the presidential election of 1964

Falange From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search This article is about the Spanish political party. For the Lebanese Phalange, see the Kataeb Party. The Falange (or Phalange) is the name assigned to several political movements and parties dating from the 1930s, most particularly the original movement in Spain. The word Falange means phalanx formation in Spanish. This bellic symbol was chosen due to the militaristic nature of the party.

In Spain, the Falange was a political organization founded by José Antonio Primo de Rivera in 1933, during the Second Spanish Republic. Primo de Rivera was a Madrid lawyer, son of General Miguel Primo de Rivera, who governed Spain as a mild dictatorial Prime Minister, with the acquiescence of King Alfonso XIII, in the 1920s (from September 1923 to January 1930). General Primo de Rivera believed in state planning and government intervention in the economy. His son and the Phalangists he led expressed regret for the demise of the elder Primo de Rivera's regime, and proposed to revive his policies and strengthen the Spanish nation through a program of national-syndicalist social organization, who would include and provide equality to every social status, poor and rich.

During the Spanish Civil War the doctrine of the Falange was used by General Franco, who virtually took possession of its ideology, while José Antonio Primo de Rivera was sentenced to death by the Spanish Republican Government. During the war, and after its founder's death, the Falange was combined by decree (Unification Decree) with the Carlist party, under the sole command of Generalísimo Franco, forming the core of the sole official political organization in Spain, the Falange Española Tradicionalista y de las Juntas de Ofensiva Nacional-Sindicalista, or "Spanish Traditionalist Phalanx of the Assemblies of National-Syndicalist Offensive" (FET y de las JONS). This organization, also known as the National Movement (Movimiento Nacional) after 1945, continued until Franco's death in 1975. Since 1975, Phallangists have diversified into several different political movements which have continued into the 21st Century. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.41.59.19 (talk) 01:45, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Fascists

This party is the Lebanese version of the Spanish Phalangist party. So of course this party is facist, and should be tagged as such, especially if the SSNP article is so. FunkMonk (talk) 00:48, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

• This has nothing to do with the SSNP. There is no independent and reliable source that says the phalanges are fascisrt. So until someone comes up with a source like that, the fascist tag will be removed. --Lanternix (talk) 01:36, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Do you know the Spanish Phalangists? Anyhow, even though you would think it would be biased in favour of them, Country studies states Kataeb was molded after fascist organizations in Nazi Germany: [1] And here are a few boks describing their fascist origins, and how they were actually an imitation of Spanish and Italian fascist parties: [2][3][4][5][6][7] By the way, appears you violated the three revert rule, but I'm nice, so I won't report you. FunkMonk (talk) 02:05, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I admit I was wrong. I will revert my own edits. As for the 3RR, I suggest you be "not nice" and report me. I think the outcome will disappoint you. --Lanternix (talk) 02:16, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Doesn't matter, I didn't even consider doing it. I hate the rule, has gotten me blocked a bunch of timese before I learned the lesson. FunkMonk (talk) 02:25, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

"fascist origins" such as uniforms and salutes do not make a fascist party. Until the "fascist" aspect of the Phalanx / Kataeb economic and social policies can be explained, the fascist tag is misleading. This is a party representing an ethnic/religious group (the maronites) who have been subjected to repeated Islamic genocide, bombed by Israelis, caught between Arab wars and Ottoman occupation. Of course the party has a history of being militant, but fascism is a specific set of policies which the Kataeb lack. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.246.211.177 (talk) 10:57, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

It's evident the Kataeb were originally modeled after European fascist parties, it was a trend but this modeling is only superficial, its ideology is not fascist and the phlanges are nothing but totalitarian, here is a source Reich, Bernard (1990). Political leaders of the contemporary Middle East and North Africa: a biographical dictionary. Greenwood Publishing Group. pp. 203-204 / 557. ISBN 0313262136, 9780313262135. {{cite book}}: Check |isbn= value: invalid character (help), anyways all aspects of fascism were abandoned [8], the party defines itself as a Lebanese social democratic party, the leaders have repeated on many occasions their belief in multicultural and shared governance, everything else is propaganda. By the way the 4 references from google books clearly show that the wikipedian who added them searched for the terms "kataeb Lebanon fascism" so it is inevitable he will end up with a lot of references but this should not be taken out of context, the party may have been initially modeled after disciplined European fascist parties and i repeat it's ideology and agenda are not fascist Eli 13:18, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree its merely propaganda & misinformation that states Phalange are fascists For evidence that reflects otherwise go see how most the Jewish community in Lebanon under the Christian nationalist rulers they thrived and werent burned alive like Farhud in Iraq or expelled in Egypt by racists like Gamal Abdel Nasser in 1950s and this propaganda is usually stems from Leftists and Arab nationalists I should know since I was once a victim of it, when the truth is the REAL fascist ideology is pan-arabism, and arab nationalism that victimizes anything non arab and is the root of totalitarianism of the Middle East. Even arab nationalists were either close or openly admired nazis yet many Leftists or arabists historians dont dare mention this. ♥Yasmina♥ (talk) 16:49, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Missing information

Several key historical information is missing here and should be added if possible:

• original stance of the party towards democracy
• relationship to francoism
• nature of the ideology shift from falangism to democratic conservatism:

• why did it occur?
• when did it occur?
• how did it occur? Teh hackz0r (talk) 11:25, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Lack of Neutrality

Most of this entry comes directly from Kataeb's website, which cannot be considered a neutral source. It needs to be revised using academic sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.106.58.197 (talk) 02:05, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

It's really quite striking 24.177.221.197 (talk) 21:10, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Substantial parts of this article read like a PR piece by a flak hired by the party. Franklin Dmitryev (talk) 19:17, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

What should the article title be?

What should the article title be according to WP:CommonName? Is the party commonly called the Kataeb or the Phalange? I know it by Phalange. Remember it is Bill Clinton and not William. It is the Big Dig and not the Central Tunnel and Artery Project. What should it be here?

Regardless the first words, or among the first words, should be the article title. It is telling that "Kataeb Party" does not appear at all in the introduction. Maybe that is all the demonstration we need that the article title should be "Phalange" or "Lebanese Phalange Party". --Iloilo Wanderer (talk) 03:57, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Christian-democratic and secular??

Christian-democratic and secular?? Isn´t that a contradiction in terms?? --Oddeivind (talk) 18:45, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

"Phoenicianism"

So about Kataeb being "Phoenicianists" or supporting the idea of Lebnese being Phoenician. To the best of my knowledge this party have never supported any such ideology, of course it's leader during the Lebanese civil war, Bashir Gemayel was very nationalistic (not to be confused with Lebanese nationalism, he didn't say that Lebanese are not Arabs and he didn't mention anything about Phoenicians. The official website of the party uses the Arabic language too, and if you search "Phoenician" no results will come up. Furthermore, their anthem is in Modern Standard Arabic. The source] that is used doesn't seem reliable to me and it didn't cite any external sources, so what do you think? Should we remove it from the article for being unverified or come up with a better source (preferablya primary one)?

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Lebanese Front LF.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:29, 16 December 2022 (UTC)