Talk:Hwando

Untitled

To Cydevil38, your disruptive editing in Wandu Mountain City is reported by me at Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts#User:Cydevil38.27s_disruptive_editing_in_Wandu_Mountain_City. In addition to changing the contents to your original research (which is via blanking, i.e., removing proper contents such as "Wandu Mountain City and Guonei city were co-capitals". For example, Wandu Mountain City, along with Guonei City, served as the second capital of Goguryeo was deleted by Cydevil38. Otherwise, according to your writeup, this city is the 2nd capital of Goguryeo, but look at Guonei City, it is also the 2nd capital. What are you writing there?). In the history,

• Wandu Mountain City was built as a mountain fortress (尉那巖城, Weina Rock City) to protect the Guonei City at the year 3.
• It was named as Wandu (丸都) and rebuilt at the year 198 for the purpose of being a new capital (because the capital Guonei City was destroyed by the Gongsun Clan at that time. 丸都 means "丸 capital" in Chinese).
• At the year 209, the rebuilding of the Wandu Mountain City was finished and the capital was switched from Guonei City to here, but typically they are treated as co-capitals, thus they are both 2nd capital of Goguryeo.
• In present-day China, the historical remain is normally translated into English as "City site at Wandushan", which means it is a historical site, not a city of residence anymore. Here is the picture--nobody lives there. There is no such thing Hwando is a historical name and Wandu is the present-day name. Hwando and Wandu are merely different romanizations of the same entity, whether you classify this entity as historical or present-day. --Jiejunkong 02:47, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Koreans still call that place Hwando, because it is their way of romanization. The Chinese romanize it as Wandu, for the same reason. The reason the location itself is called Wandu is because it is located in China. But we are referring to Hwando, back when it wasn't Chinese territory. get it? What you are going about and saying is pretty much asking for every historical entity including Goguryeo to be Romanized in Pinyin. Now that is just simply ridiculous. Odst 20:35, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

If you look at all my messages carefully, I have supported "Wandu/Hwando", not "Wandu" only, not "Hwando" only, from the very beginning. It would be useful for people like you and me to know that "Wandu" and "Hwando" are the same thing with no language gap.--Jiejunkong 09:05, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Yuje was right. everything he said was right. :P —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Odst (talk • contribs) 20:35, August 23, 2007 (UTC).

To the Smart High School Student, User:Yuje speaks Cantonese, while I don't know Cantonese at all (The distance between my place and Yuje's place is longer than what you expected). Nevertheless, I noticed that we do have similar taste.--Jiejunkong 08:36, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't see as how this debate is relevant whent my final edit says the following: It is based on the ruins of Hwando Fortress that served as the second capital of Goguryeo (Chinese: 高句麗；Pinyin: Gaogouli) along with Guknae Seong(Pinyin: Guoneicheng).

_{The above unsigned paragraph was written at 00:07, 24 August 2007 by Cydevil38}

According to wikirecord which doesn't lie, what you said was quite different. You actually completely deleted "Guonei City" in the article page and added back in the talk page here to make false claims.--Jiejunkong 08:39, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Wandu Mountain City, in the present tense, is a ruin of the ancient Wandu Mountain City. See the present-day picture, nobody lives in the ruin today. It was initially built as Weina Rock City in 3 AD, thus Wandu Mountain City turns out to be a natural name. I don't know how you can claim that "Hwando fortress" is the ancient name, and "Wandu Mountain City" (or even "Wandu fortress") is not. Indeed, Chinese has never changed the name of the place. 丸都 (Wandu, Hwando) is both the ancient name and the present name.--Jiejunkong 08:36, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Original history records

Seoul National University's Kyujanggak Archives(奎章阁) has the PDF copy of all Samguk Sagi(三國史記), the canonical history record made by Goryeo to record historical events in Goguryeo, Baekje and Silla.

• In Volume 13(page 18) of Samguk Sagi, it is said "(瑠璃王)二十二年冬十月，王遷都於國內，築尉那巖城"(English translation: On October of the 22nd year (of Yuri of Goguryeo), the Yuri King moved the capital to Guonei, and built the Weina Rock City). A temporal fact is that the 1st year of Yuri of Goguryeo is 19 BC, so the 22nd year is 3 AD. A geographic fact is that Guonei City was a city on Yalu River's plain, while Weina Rock City(尉那巖城) was the city in the mountain which was later renamed to Wandu(丸都) by Sansang of Goguryeo.
• In Volume 16(page 21] of Samguk Sagi，it is said "(山上王)二年二月築丸都城"(English translation: On February of the 2nd year (of Sansang of Goguryeo), Wandu City was built). In page 23 of the same volume, it is said "(山上王十三年)十月，王移都于丸都"(English translation: On October (of the 13th year of Sansang of Goguryeo), the Sansang King moved the capital to Wandu). Note that the 1st year of Sansang of Goguryeo is 197 A.D.--Jiejunkong 04:11, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I know those entries in Samguksagi. And I find it interesting that you would use Korean and Chinese romanizations selectively when the entire source is Korean. Anyways, according to Encyclopedia Britannica Korean edition, the relationship between the two entities is controversial, but the theory that both refer to present-day Ji'an area is dominant. It is sometimes seen that Ji'an was Guknae seong and Shanchengzi fortress(the Chinese name of the remaining fortress) was Hwando seong. As for Winaam seong(which Jiejunkong refers to as Weina Rock City), this name is even more controversial because it can be seen as the equivalent of Guknae seong. Cydevil38 00:07, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Your comments make me look like a CPOV user who supports "Wandu" only. I feel obliged to repeat my standing: As in Goguryeo, I have supported "Wandu/Hwando", not "Wandu" only, not "Hwando" only, from the very beginning. It would be useful for people like you and me to know that "Wandu" and "Hwando" are the same thing with no language gap. In fact, Wandu and Hwando are only two romanization forms of the same thing. Guonei and Guknae also fall into the same case. Seong and Cheng follow the case as well.--Jiejunkong 09:37, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

As to Ji'an, Jilin, its city area covers neither Wandu Mountain City nor Guonei City. The two ancient co-capitals happen to be included in the city's surburban area. Ji'an was founded in the Qing Dynasty. The Ji'an city itself has nothing to do with Goguryeo sites, or Xuantu sites, or whatever city sites a thousand years ago. I have seen nobody confused Ji'an, Jilin with Wandu Mountain City or Guonei City. You are the first one in this case.--Jiejunkong 09:43, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Also it is annoying for a Korean national to conclude that "Shanchengzi fortress(the Chinese name of the remaining fortress)". Who told you this? In the official govenment site of Jilin, the official name is 丸都山城 (Wandu Mountain City), while the local residents casually call the ruin "Shanchengzi". Do you know what "Shanchengzi" means in Chinese? How can it be "the Chinese name"? Would you please don't make up things like this?--Jiejunkong 09:53, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

FYI, I've been to Ji'an, Jilin myself, and closely observed the mentioned sites above. The Ji'an city sits right on top of what used to be Guknae Seong, and the supposed remains of Hwando Seong is just a few minutes drive from the city. And besides, this isn't my personal opinion. As for where I got this information, I already told you - Britannica(Korean edition) and Doosan Encyclopedia. I know Ji'an city itself has little if any historic relation at all to Goguryeo, but the city is the present geographic location of many historic Goguryeo entities such as Guknae and Hwando.

_{(The above unsigned paragraph was written at 13:02, 24 August 2007 by User:Cydevil38)}

The ruin of Guonei City can be seen online. It locates in the close suburban area of Ji'an, Jilin, not in the Ji'an city zone (集安市区). As a user who know you well, I don't trust your words like "The Ji'an city sits right on top of what used to be Guknae Seong" (what do you mean by "right on top of"? how right is "right" here?). The ruins of Guonei City are on the Tonggou Plain(通沟平原). To get to Wandu Mountain City from Guonei City, you should go straight north along the Tonggou River(通沟河). But Wandu Mountain City is 2.5km west to the Ji'an city zone (集安市区). Therefore, your statement is controversial (if not contradictory). 2.5km is not too far for a modern automobile drive, but around the time of year 200, Goguryeo did have enough manpower to fill in the gap between the two cities by local residents. Even now there is no enough manpower to enlarge Ji'an to fill the gap. Thus it is highly unlikely Guonei City can be confused with Wandu Mountain City, or can be confused with Ji'an (unless you intentionally do so).--Jiejunkong 20:57, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

"The entire source is Korean"? Ok, Samguk Sagi is written in the classical Chinese language (文言文), since when can you claim that the classical Chinese language is Korean? The Chinese language skill demonstrated in Samguk Sagi is at the native speaker level. The author 金富軾 spoke Chinese and wrote in Chinese. And I have stated the following history fact checking several times---your claim that historical entities before the 10th century are "Korean" is spurious. At that time there was no such thing called "Korean" (which is from the after-10th century Goryeo). All you can say is that the prior-7th century Goguryeo people were ancesters of (or proto-) some modern Korean, while another comparable portion of them were ancestors of some Manchu Chinese and Xibe Chinese. I just don't understand why it is so hard to accept what the canonical history records said?--Jiejunkong 09:21, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I think we went through this already. For all I care, there are plenty of reliable English publications that confirm the widely held consensus that Goguryeo was a "Korean" entity. Your personal opinion on this matter is not going to change that. If you have a problem with it, get a Ph.D in history and engage in professional research. Cydevil38 13:02, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and another thing, there was such a thing called "Korean" back in those days. "Korea" is the English word for "Goryeo", which is one of the common names that Goguryeo used to refer to itself. Cydevil38 13:02, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

There was no Goryeo before and at the 9th century. At the 10th century, after Balhae (which inherited a significant portion of land and population of Goguryeo) was conquered by Khitan, about 1/5 Balhae people fled to Goryeo, and the other 4/5 stayed. Those who stayed became ancestors of Manchu Chinese, Xibe Chinese, Daur Chinese and Han Chinese. Your Goryeo argument is essentially flawed because you use a 10th-century entity to cope with a 7th-century entity and a 9th-century entity without considering historical facts.--Jiejunkong 20:57, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Anyways, "Wandu Mountain City" is an entry for the UNESCO World Heritage Site, not the historic fortress itself. I'll create a proper article for the historic fortress, and revert this article to one that describes the UNESCO World Heritage Site. Cydevil38 00:09, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

This article is created for the historic fortress, under the name "Wandu Mountain City", which is also now a UNESCO World Heritage Site under the same name "Wandu Mountain City". Don't try to push your POV by treating the two as different things. Even if they are different(which is obviously not), you are action by making a POV fork is unacceptable. Let me repeat, the article is originally created for the historic fortress, under the name "Wandu Mountain City". It as a UNESCO World Heritage Site is a side information.Wiki Pokemon 17:14, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the message. But the article already stated that the remain of Wandu Mountain City is the UNESCO World Heritage Site. I don't see any problem with the contents.--Jiejunkong 09:21, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

More original history records

Volume 30 of Records of Three Kingdoms states:"建安中，公孫康出軍擊之，破其國，焚燒邑落。"_{English translation:During Jian'an period, Gongsun Kang attacked Goguryeo, conquered its capital, burned its villages.}

Note that, in the classical Chinese, the Chinese character "國" typically means "capital". This is unlike the same character in the modern Chinese where "國" typically means "country". For example, 國人暴動 means the rebellion of the people in the capital city of the Zhou Dynasty, not of the people of the entire country of the Zhou Dynasty.

Volume 38 of History of the Liao Dynasty (i.e., the Khitan Empire) states:"正州。本沸流王故地，國爲公孫康所並。_{English translation:Zhengzhou was originally the land of King Biryu. Its capital was conquered by Gongsun Kang.} —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jiejunkong (talk • contribs) 06:41, August 26, 2007 (UTC)

Unethical Behavior

I have taken the time to review the edit history. I have found the following unacceptable actions by Cydevil.

• 7-3-07 Ksyrie create the article with the theme of the historic fortress under the name "Wandu Mountain City". It mentioned "Wandu Mountain City" as a capital of Koguryo. There is no mention of it as a UNESCO World Heritage Site.
• 8-12-07 Cydevil made some edit to the article. But he did not change the theme of the article about the historic fortress. There is no mention of it as a UNESCO World Heritage Site.
• 8-23-07 Cydevil made a very major edit. He as changed that theme of the article from the historic fortress to UNESCO World Heritage Site. Such major edit amounted to a proportion similar to an article move.
• From then on, Cydevil declared that the article is about a UNESCO World Heritage Site, not the historic fortress.
• After stripping this article of its original main theme, by giving some original research justification, and then replacing it with another theme. This prepared Cydevil to create a seemingly justifiable POV fork of this article.

Cydevil knows very well the rule of POV forking. He has in fact invoke that same rule to have articles deleted. Now he uses a scheme to justify his violation of that rule. I have make the same POV forking mistake without knowing it. But I have to courage to admit it. Cydevil knows about the rule and choose to break it, and keeps denying it. The facts are all here for us to see. Cydevil action is simply bold, unilateral, scheming and totally unethical. I don't know whether there is some avenue in Wikipedia to censure these kind of behavior by Cydevil. If there is, he should be subjected to it, no doubt.Wiki Pokemon 18:33, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for writing down what I have known. My comment is that Cydevil38's writings are not a trustworthy source which meets the standard defined in Wikipedia:Reliable Sources.--Jiejunkong 21:02, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

POV Fork

I see Cydevil38 has created a POV fork of this article at Hwando. Cydevil38 please delete it.Wiki Pokemon 02:48, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I see in your point of view, if it's not CPOV, then it's KPOV. You just have to have it your way, don't you? Please show respect to people that actually do things correctly, like Cydevil. Odst 03:01, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Whatever, just like you I guess. Anyway I thought Cydevil38 knows about POV fork rules very well to make that kind of error himself.Wiki Pokemon 03:29, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Discussions are available at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Hwando_(fortress).--Jiejunkong 04:58, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Wandu Mountain City → Hwandoseong — Per Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(places)#Maintain_consistency_within_each_country, same case as Constantinople and Istanbul - This article is specific to the country of Goguryeo, a Korean country that once existed in parts of modern-day Manchuria. Therefore, this article's title must be in Korean. —Wikimachine 00:10, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Oppose - WP:NC requires that we use the common name and that is Wandu Mountain City. It also says "Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly recognized by readers than the English form.". The existing name is that officially used by UNESCO and as such is also the 'commonly recognized' name. TerriersFan 03:21, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

There is no most common name for Wandu Mountain City or Hwando etc. There is the article about modern-day Ji'an, Jilin, which would qualify for the WP:NC's number rule - even then where do you get that Wandu is more comonly used in English than the native? According to your logic, Wikipedia should call Constantinople Istanbul b/c there is more Google result for Istanbul. (Wikimachine 03:31, 7 September 2007 (UTC))

• Oppose — per official naming by UNESCO. Also, following WP:NPOV guidelines, Goguryeo (Koguryo) cities north of the Yalu River should use Chinese transliteration, and south, Korean. Apparently, UNESCO's naming appears to follow this convention.--Endroit 03:40, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

It is my opinion that UNESCO is not as comprehensive as we'd like to - that is UNESCO's report is based in modern context. It is simply inappropriate to describe something Korean with Chinese name. And that report does not indicate UNESCO's official naming. (Wikimachine 03:48, 7 September 2007 (UTC))

Our extensive discussions in Talk:Goguryeo resulted in the current wording in the Goguryeo article, without declaring it to be neither Korean nor Chinese. Wikimachine, it is a WP:NPOV violation for you to declare that it's Korean, and against the spirit of our previous discussions.--Endroit 03:54, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Please explain how WP:NPOV applies to this case. I don't see anything NPOV about using Chinese transliteration for any historic entities that is now within its present political borders. Also, UNESCO's naming is not very reliable. For instance, the name of a peer World Heritage Site, "Wunu Mountain City", has absolutely nothing to do with Goguryeo, but it is designated as the "official" name of a former capital city of Goguryeo by UNESCO nonetheless. Cydevil38 17:17, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

You're wrong, Endroit, the consensus was that, as admin Nlu agreed, Goguryeo was definitely a Korean kingdom. & while NPOV rule states that we must present 2 sides accordingly, that should apply only to the debate itself & at the same time the predominant view should be presented as the predominant view - thus, Wikipedia should describe, not prescribe: or else according to you, Endroit, it is unknown whether Osama Bin Ladin was a terrorist or a holy fighter. (Wikimachine 20:57, 7 September 2007 (UTC))

See Talk:Goguryeo/ArchivedPolls where we reached consensus. Obviously there's no such consensus suggesting that "Goguryeo was definitely a Korean kingdom". I DO see a consensus which recommends usage of BOTH Chinese and Korean versions wherever possible.--Endroit 21:31, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose - per Endroit. —LactoseTI^T 03:47, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose - per Endroit. —Wiki Pokemon 16:37, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support - move to "Hwando" or "Hwandoseong".
• Comment - I believe there should be slight changes to this RM. "XXX Mountain City", be it in Chinese or Korean, is not an appropriate name. Such usage is virtually absent in reliable English publications. Reliable English publications mostly use "Hwando" and its variants, such as "Hwandosong". Cambridge Histories, an authoritative source recommended by WP:NCGN, uses "Hwando-song". Cydevil38 17:17, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose - Per Endroit's reasoning. --Tλε Rαnδom Eδιτor (tαlk) 21:05, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose - Don't change official names to create more chaos.--Jiejunkong 06:22, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

• See Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(places)#Maintain_consistency_within_each_country. Guknae Seong was a Goguryeo capital in China. But it has a Korean name. In fact, that's how everything should be - Goguryeo as a Korean kingdom should have its capital described with its own name in its own language. (Wikimachine 21:03, 7 September 2007 (UTC))
• However, let's just close this -already "the consensus" is against the proposition. Note that our naming convention is incomplete, & produces ridiculous scenarios such as this one. Most of all, Endroit made a wrong advocacy, the WP naming convention that I've identified specifically lists an exception for which this rm is eligible for. (Wikimachine 21:34, 7 September 2007 (UTC))
  • UNESCO's naming apparently uses Chinese transliteration for cities north of the Yalu River, and Korean, south. This may appear "ridiculous" and "wrong" to you, Wikimachine, since you appear to be advocating the Koreanization of everything and anything related to Goguryeo. But to me, it just seems to conform to WP:NPOV guidelines and the spirit of our previous discussions in Talk:Goguryeo. We just have to agree to disagree on this.--Endroit 15:24, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Google results (manual count0

• Relevant Hwando Fortress: 7
• Wandu Mountain City: 441

I mean if it wasn't for all those gov-funded tourist sites & forums. (Wikimachine 03:36, 7 September 2007 (UTC))

• Hwando: 611 (less, some inaccuracy, around 10% error)
• Wandu: 2570 (much less satisfactory in accuracy, there's no way I can get this straight)

Most likely the Google result supports Wandu... (Wikimachine 03:44, 7 September 2007 (UTC))

Reliable English Publications

• Evidence from Google Books - I will compile various romanizations under which "Wandu Mountain City" is named in reliable English publications. I sincerely ask other editors to consider this evidence before voting:

Hwando:

• The Cambridge History of Japan(1988) by John Whitney Hall[1] - "Hwando-song"
• Encyclopedia of Asian History(1988) by Embree, Ainslie Thomas[2] - "Hwando"
• The Making of Modern Korea(2002) by Adrian Buzo[3] - "Hwando"
• A Concise History of Korea(2006) by Michael J. Seth[4] - "Hwando"
• Sources of Korean Tradition(2001) by William Theodore De Bary, Peter H. Lee[5] - "Hwando"
• The Culture of Fengshui in Korea(2006) by Hong-key Yoon[6] - "Hwandosong"
• Korea: A Historical and Cultural Dictionary(1999) by Keith L. Pratt, Richard Rutt[7] - "Hwando"
• Imperial Chinese Military History: 8000 Bc - 1912 Ad(2002) by Marvin C. Whiting[8] - "Hwando-song"
• The Genesis of East Asia(2001) by Charles Holcombe[9] - "Hwando"

Wandu:

• State Formation in Korea: Historical and Archaeological Perspectives(2001) by Gina L. Barnes[10] - "Wandu"
• Koguryo, the Language of Japan's Continental Relatives(2004) by Christopher I. Beckwith[11] - "Wan-tu" Cydevil38 17:17, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

FYI, I clicked a few links you provided, for example, Encyclopedia of Asian History(1988) by Embree, Ainslie Thomas[12]. Unfortunately, I cannot find "Hwando" even by string search in my web browser. In addition, the links you provided show disorganized web contents. I strongly suggest that you should take a few semesters of history class in Seoul National University (for a figure of speech) to write some coherent messages, or I have to make some non-positive comments about your messages.--Jiejunkong 06:29, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Farther north, Koguryo was able to expand into Liaodong Peninsula in spite of continued harassment by other nomad groups, one of which sacked Hwando for the second time in 343. - Encyclopedia of Asian History(1988) by Embree, Ainslie Thomas[13]

Those aren't just "disorganized web contents". They are proof that Hwando and its variants is the common name in relaible English publications. Cydevil38 03:11, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

It seems that your English comprehension of "Reliable Sources" is quite different from regular wikipedians. Let me use User:Darkwind's reply to you posted at 17:20, 23 August 2007 (UTC) and recorded in Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts/Archive/2007#User:Cydevil38.27s_disruptive_editing_in_Wandu_Mountain_City: "A link to a google book search is not a source. A source would be a reliable scholarly publication (or something similar) that discusses the use of the two romanizations and provides its own evidence as to which is more accepted. Just seeing that your particular search lists more books under Hwando AND Koguryo than under Wandu AND Koguryo proves nothing --- in fact, using that comparison to draw the conclusion that Hwando is thus more accepted is fairly close to OR. A Wikipedia editor is not supposed to draw conclusions themselves (see WP:OR again), they're supposed to cite conclusions already published in a reliable source." I cannot accept the disorganized output produced by a user's finger simply from the input of a string to a search engine. (By the way, the first link you posted on Encyclopedia of Asian History(1988) by Embree, Ainslie Thomas[14] does not have "Hwando", then you changed the link in the previous message. That's fine if you explicitly mentioned such change. No sneak in please.)--Jiejunkong 18:50, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it to be moved. --Stemonitis 07:15, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Merged citations

Here are the duplicate citations that I merged:

This is the citation that I merged them into:

(I removed the reference name so that it doesn't get mixed up with citation #3.)

As you can see, the three original citations (that I merged into one) are from the same page of the same book. Furthermore, my other edits to the passages are based on the cited source. If you have any questions, please let me know. Bamnamu (talk) 09:42, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

Moves

(cur | prev) 10:10, 4 December 2009‎ Historiographer (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (32,376 bytes) (0)‎ . . (moved Talk:Wandu Mountain City to Talk:Hwando Mountain Fortress: unity with Gungnae-seong.) (undo | thank)

(cur | prev) 06:51, 9 January 2015‎ Zanhe (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (32,523 bytes) (0)‎ . . (Zanhe moved page Talk:Hwando Mountain Fortress to Talk:Wandu Mountain City over redirect: revert move made against consensus of move request, see talk page) (undo | thank)

(cur | prev) 03:48, 16 June 2017‎ Zanhe (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (32,523 bytes) (0)‎ . . (Zanhe moved page Talk:Wandu Mountain City to Talk:Wandu: per WP:Concise) (undo | thank)

Requested move 13 December 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. After 27 days and two relistings (long enough for three relistings), it is time to close this debate, and consensus is to support this proposal. Happy New Year to All! (closed by page mover)  Paine Ellsworth  ^put'r there  01:58, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

---

Wandu → Hwando – In the previous request for move discussion, UNESCO using the Chinese term Wandu played a large role in convincing people that Wandu is a commonly used name and is neutral. I argue that this is not the case. In requests for registration of something in UNESCO, the country making the request writes a report, and as this is a request made by China, it is natural for them to use Chinese names. This case is more complex as this was a dual registration of both Goguryeo cultural sites in China and North Korea, which is perhaps why Koguryo, a Korean word, and the most commonly used term for Goguryeo, was used instead of the Chinese term, Gaogouli. However, all local sites in China were given a Chinese name, which is because the report for the request was written by China. The gist of this is that UNESCO geographical names in some cases, such as this, are not neutral as discussed above. Here, I present real evidence based on WP:NCGN, that most, if not more, reliable sources use the name Hwando. I demonstrate this through searching for "Hwando" and "Wandu" in Google Books and Google Scholars, and compare total relevant hits between the two contested terms. I used the parameters "AND "Koguryo" OR "Goguryeo" OR "Gaogouli" -wikipedia" to exclude Hwando or Wandu not relevant to the kingdom of Goguryeo.

Google Books search, Hwando Goguryeo OR Koguryo OR Gaogouli -wikipedia, 297 results[15]

Google Scholars search, Goguryeo OR Koguryo OR Gaogouli "Hwando" -wikipedia, 55 results[16]

Google Books search, Wandu Goguryeo OR Koguryo OR Gaogouli -wikipedia, 208 results[17]

Goole Scholars search, Goguryeo OR Koguryo OR Gaogouli "Wandu" -wikipedia, 52 results[18]

Hwando has a total of 352 hits, while Wandu has a total of 260 hits, Hwando outnumbering Wandu by 92 hits in reliable sources.

Other matters to consider are consistency of using the Korean language in Goguryeo articles and treating Goguryeo articles as historical articles, where historical names matter more than modern geographical names that sometimes have absolutely no relevance to Goguryeo at all. One prime example is the UNESCO name of Wunu Mountain City. The historical name of this Goguryeo city is Jolbon, and the name Wunu Mountain City comes from Tang Dynasty, long after Goguryeo fell.

The gist of my argument is that considering the use of a common name, linguistic consistency and historical nature of this article, Hwando is the appropriate name of this article. While Hwando should be used in general, the Chinese name Wandu should be used only to refer to today's UNESCO world heritage site, Wandu Mountain City. Sacker23 (talk) 12:42, 13 December 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 22:23, 24 December 2017 (UTC) --Relisted.  Paine Ellsworth  ^put'r there  09:16, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

• Relist comment. Editors who participate in Wikiprojects for China, Korea, Military history, Archaeology and World Heritage Sites have been notified.  Paine Ellsworth  ^put'r there  09:50, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

This is China's nomination report to UNESCO, which exclusively uses Chinese terms on Goguryeo places and artifacts, and claims Goguryeo to have been an ethnic minority of China. This is to prove that UNESCO names are not neutral, depending on which party makes the initial nomination report.[19] Sacker23 (talk) 14:51, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

• Support, revert to Hwando In ictu oculi (talk) 14:50, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
• Support, evidence shows Hwando is the more appropriate name. Sacker23 (talk) 15:29, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose for the following reasons:

1. This issue was settled a decade ago with near unanimous support for Wandu (see requested move above).

2. WP:NEUTRAL: given the Goguryeo controversies and numerous past discussions on Talk:Goguryeo, the neutral consensus solution is to use Chinese spelling for Goguryeo sites in China, and Korean spelling for those in North Korea, which is the approach taken by UNESCO.

3. The proposer's common name claim does not hold water. He uses multiple variant spellings for Korean, but only one variant for Chinese. If you add more Chinese variants, you'd get 6,000 results for Wan-tu Goguryeo OR Koguryo OR Gaogouli OR Kao-kou-li -wikipedia, for example.

-Zanhe (talk) 19:26, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Comment Please provide a link where a consensus was reached at Talk:Goguryeo to use Chinese spelling for Goguryeo sites in China, or to accept UNESCO names.

• The consensus was reached here: Endroit proposed that "following WP:NPOV guidelines, Goguryeo (Koguryo) cities north of the Yalu River should use Chinese transliteration, and south, Korean". It received unanimous support save for one (now blocked) user. -Zanhe (talk) 02:00, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

• That is not Talk:Goguryeo. Goguryeo uses Korean terms, such as Gungnae and Hwando. The requested move on Talk:Wandu was based on misinformation, that UNESCO is neutral. I have presented evidence here that UNESCO is not neutral, and also new evidence that use of the term Wandu violates WP:NCGN rule of using common names. Sacker23 (talk) 03:08, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

• This is getting ridiculous. Now you're squabbling over where consensus was reached? Well, if you insist on Talk:Goguryeo, note that Talk:Goguryeo/ArchivedPolls#Poll unanimously supports using both Korean and Chinese for that article. However, there are a bunch of dedicated POV pushers who keep violating the consensus and edit warring, which is why the article is now locked. And accusing UNESCO as being non-neutral only proves your own bias. -Zanhe (talk) 04:52, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

• Don't leave out what the poll was about. Zanhe conveniently left out what the poll was actually about.Talk:Goguryeo/ArchivedPolls#Infobox_name_straw_poll The poll was about names in Goguryeo's infobox, not the names of historic cities of Goguryeo. And UNESCO is indeed not very neutral, because of the nomination and registration process, where the host country makes the nomination report. I have presented evidence in this discussion, China's nomination report of this UNESCO site, which is full of Chinese bias. Also, in case of another historic Goguryeo city, Gungnae, UNESCO uses both Gungnae and Kuonei in different documents, depending on which country made the document, showing how UNESCO cannot be used as a basis of WP:NEUTRAL or WP:NCGN. Sacker23 (talk) 09:18, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

• For a new user, you're really good at Wikilawyering. First you argue about the venue where the neutrality consensus was reached, now you argue over the letter of another consensus, and then you keep insisting UNESCO is biased. Yes, the Talk:Goguryeo/ArchivedPolls#Poll consensus is about the infobox, but the Talk:Wandu#Requested_move consensus is specifically about this article name. And the spirit of both consensuses is clear: Wikipedia is not a place to push one's bias, and will take a strictly neutral stand in controversial issues such as this. And your endless tendentious arguments clearly prove that your sole purpose here to push your POV. -Zanhe (talk) 05:42, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

Zanhe's search, which yields 1,780 hits, not 6000 hits, is invalid as it uses a hyphen, which results in an inflated number of hits. Without a hyphen, using Wantu, search result yields 69 hits.[20] Using a hyphen on Hwando, as Hwan-do, results in 2,440 hits.[21] Therefore, Zanhe's argument is based on a technical glitch and evidence still shows that the Korean term Hwando is the most common name.Sacker23 (talk) 01:03, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

• There was no technical glitch. Google books does return 6,000 results on my computer, and it's well known that Google returns vary widely depending on one's location. That further shows that your original argument for common name based on the difference of a few dozen results is untenable. Also, the hyphen is required for the older Wade-Giles standard of Chinese romanization, which is why I used it. That's not the case for Korean romanizations. -Zanhe (talk) 02:00, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Nonetheless, using a hyphen inflates results, as I have demonstrated with Hwan-do. If you check the search term I have used, search results on Wantu without the hyphen still yields results with reliable sources using Wan-tu. Also, using a hyphen yields many false hits like "Wang" "Wan" and "Tu". Sacker23 (talk) 03:08, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

These are some example of results from Zanhe's search using hyphens, with hits in bold.

• 153, 155,163,164, 342 Koguryo (Korea) tomb, 41n32,121, 179, 270, 317. See also Tokhungri tomb Korla wooden Buddha, 175, ... f0 ching, 82n45, 183, 226-33, 23738, 518; and Ping-ling ssu Cave 169 Group 6, 252, 288-89, 293, 299-300, 303, 350 Kuan Yao-wang Yao-shang erh p'u-sa ching, 287 Kuan Yao-wang Yao-shang erh p'u-sa ching.
• Un jour, Su Wei, plein de haine contre Wan, demanda à celui-ci, en présence de plusieurs hauts fonctionnaires, où il avait pris les principes de sa musique. Wan Baochang, étant un simple moine, répondit : « Mes professeurs m'ont transmis ces lois, à moi, moine barbare. Ils m'ont dit que c'était la musique donnée par les bodhisattva du royaume de Buddha et que l'empereur en serait content sans faute. » Su Wei se mit en colère : « Ce que tu transmets ici est la musique des quatre

This is proof that Zanhe's search with a hyphen is unreliable and yields many false positives. My evidence that Hwando is the common name is still valid. Sacker23 (talk) 03:44, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

This proves exactly my point, that complex Google searches that you presented are not reliable evidence because they can be easily manipulated. Let's look at your Google Books search for Hwando Goguryeo OR Koguryo OR Gaogouli -wikipedia with 297 results [22]. If you click on page 10, the number of results suddenly changes to 96 and that is the last page. So the "297 results" are actually no more than 96, including many false positives. -Zanhe (talk) 06:05, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

Same restrictions apply to all searches. This still does not change the fact that Hwando is the most common name used in reliable sources. Sacker23 (talk) 00:48, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

• Proposal - the nominator has made two simultaneous move requests regarding the same issue (as well as two RFCs). It's tiring to duplicate essentially the same arguments here and at Talk:Guonei. I propose that the other request be closed and merged into this one. -Zanhe (talk) 04:58, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
• Counter-proposal - I disagree on merging, but if it must be done, then I propose that this RM on Hwando(Wandu) be merged into Gungnae(Kuonei), because Gungnae is a much more significant subject, being Goguryeo's second capital. Sacker23 (talk) 12:39, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
• Support Hwando per nom. Sawol (talk) 12:01, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

RFC on Move Request

Should the page name moved from Wandu to Hwando? Please help reach a consensus on the request to move. Sacker23 (talk) 14:33, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

@Sacker23: This is a WP:RM matter, no need to hold a WP:RFC. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 23:32, 13 December 2017 (UTC)